2 Suggestions for Endgame

[Kimimoto]

16 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

I personally do not find the sorties challanging in any way but if you continue to higher the level the only way to cope with it is massively CC the enemies. Where is the challange in that? I highly doubt that it would be the same experience that you remember from the old days.

I do T4 Survivals now with the few friends I have left playing the game and we go to level 200+ without cheesing, it's very challenging. I 100% believe it would be the same exact experience if I wanted it to be, since nothing has really changed. 

In this run we ran Nidus, Nekros, Ash, Chroma. If people didn't have to go we most likely could have gone 300+ enemies. The problem is there was really no reason to do this besides wanting a challenge, it's not much to ask for incentive.

 

[Kimimoto]

16 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Difficulties and player progression must go together otherwise it's just a vicious cycle of powercreep. High MR players got those *air quotes* incentives along the way just to ask for more incentives. 

 

It does go together, my suggestions add in no way add to powercreep. Kuva is already a thing, it doesn't powercreep anymore than it already has, it's the same case with prime parts. Do you know what powercreep means? Sounds like you're just throwing scary words out.

[WindigoTG]

5 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

I do T4 Survivals now with the few friends I have left playing the game and we go to level 200+ without cheesing, it's very challenging. I 100% believe it would be the same exact experience if I wanted it to be, since nothing has really changed. 

In this run we ran Nidus, Nekros, Ash, Chroma. If people didn't have to go we most likely could have gone 300+ enemies. The problem is there was really no reason to do this besides wanting a challenge, it's not much to ask for incentive.

 

Stomping a planet to the oblivion, while CCing it to hell, Invisibility, Clemton of damage on top of clemton of damage reduction.

Totally without cheesing at all.

 

Lemme guess, CPs?

[Kimimoto]

29 minutes ago, WindigoTP said:

 

Stomping a planet to the oblivion, while CCing it to hell, Invisibility, Clemton of damage on top of clemton of damage reduction.

Totally without cheesing at all.

 

Lemme guess, CPs?

Yeah CP is super efficient, it's hardly cheese

The only CCing that happened was Nidus grouping things up so he could stomp them, maybe 1/3rd of the mobs. Still have to be super careful while invisible when there are 200+ napalms all over the place. Yeah, Nidus and Chroma have Damage Reduction, otherwise how would they manage?

I beginning to think anything that's useful is now cheese according to the forums

[WindigoTG]

Just now, Kimimoto said:

Yeah CP is super efficient, it's hardly cheese

The only CCing that happened was Nidus grouping things up so he could stomp them, maybe 1/3rd of the mobs. Still have to be super careful while invisible when there are 200+ napalms all over the place. Yeah, Nidus and Chroma have Damage Reduction, otherwise how would they manage?

I beginning to think anything that's useful is now cheese according to the forums

Then what is cheese according to you?

[Kimimoto]

1 minute ago, WindigoTP said:

Then what is cheese according to you?

It's when you build a team around exploiting a CC ability. For example having a Quake Banshee/Bless for 75% DR and energy/Gara for 90% DR/Buff Rhino, all together they would just sit in a room and kill the map. If you're literally only pushing 1 button and there's no threat of losing, then you're cheesing. If you're just playing a frame and using it's strengths to your advantage, sounds like you're just playing the game. Like Valkyr eventually is going to run out of energy and be vulnerable to getting lit up, Ash will come out of stealth or stand in a bad spot which results in him getting lit up, when Zephyrs Turbulence falls off there's a moment of vulnerability and she can be meleed.  Obviously some frames are much better than others at certain roles, but on their own they can't literally be unstoppable.

I also hate camping with a cheese team, it's just not fun. Playing Survival with your friends just using whatever is always fun though, we didn't organize a squad to sit in a corner. During that match we were all spaced out killing stuff. We were still within Desecrate range, but there was no organization there. It's all about the fun and challenge.

[WindigoTG]

Just now, Kimimoto said:

It's when you build a team around exploiting a CC ability. For example having a Quake Banshee/Bless for 75% DR and energy/Gara for 90% DR/Buff Rhino, all together they would just sit in a room and kill the map. If you're literally only pushing 1 button and there's no threat of losing, then you're cheesing. If you're just playing a frame and using it's strengths to your advantage, sounds like you're just playing the game. Like Valkyr eventually is going to run out of energy and be vulnerable to getting lit up, Ash will come out of stealth or stand in a bad spot which results in him getting lit up, when Zephyrs Turbulence falls off there's a moment of vulnerability and she can be meleed.  Obviously some frames are much better than others at certain roles, but on their own they can't literally be unstoppable.

I also hate camping with a cheese team, it's just not fun. Playing Survival with your friends just using whatever is always fun though, we didn't organize a squad to sit in a corner. During that match we were all spaced out killing stuff. We were still within Desecrate range, but there was no organization there. It's all about the fun and challenge.

Meanwhile you're organized to multiply your damage output at least 50-fold, depending on a weapon. For some it is difference between dealing literally 0 and thouthands damage.

Which for Chroma in particular means everything dies just from him existing. Pair this with Desecrate and you get a buttload of health orbs, which in turn, paired with Cromas DR makes him literally invincible.

And Nidus is a cheese incarnate by design.

And yes, everything is cheese, because the game itself made out of cheese. So you literlly can't play without cheese.

Edited December 12, 2017 by WindigoTP

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

There's one thing that I think a lot of people don't think of with topics like this...

There is a responsibility of the developer to not give us reasons to sit for hours and hours and hours and play the game. People have died playing video games for too long.

If someone wants to sit for god knows how long and play a game, that's their choice. But developers cannot add carrots to their game to make people play for that long.

I believe this is a big factor in the introduction of the AABC rotation. You cannot reward people for playing more and more and more and more.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

snip

Don't get me wrong. I do not see any problem with cheesing in this game, because that's exactly how the game works. It's the game itself that gives you the tools and the means why not use them? In general coming up with tactics that works over level 200 can be entertaining. However the moment that you put in a reward for it, everybody will feel compelled to do it. They wont do it for the "challange" they will do it for the rewards. If you put in a method to obtain more than playing normally ppl will do it no matter what it takes or will winge because they have no time or the willingness to do it but they will feel left behind. Not talking about the fact that having to play the same mission for an hour an a half just to make it more challanging isn't really a good thing. For this ideally they should come up with ideas that would work for both sides in a reasonable timespawn that challanges your gear and your player skills equally instead of pushing ppl to cheese.

I like kuva floods. I do find them vagely challanging. They are short and present a gameplay mechanic that is different from the usual gameplay but you still have that as well. Obviously with the tools we have in theory you can totaly cheese them as well, but I rarely see ppl do it, because they do not feel compelled to do it. To do a flood you do not need a particular preparation to succed. Sure it will be hectic and a bit more difficult but it's not neccessary. It gives you the possibility to use a bigger variety of frames and weapons. Even if you fail you loose 10 minutes of your time. If you do it with endless missions for rewards it's inevitable that everybody will go for it with the best possible cheese loadout possible because nobody wannna loose the stuff they played for for hours. Inevitably will limit the variety in your loadout.

Do do you really think if somebody has a brilliant vaulted relic wont want to cheese the S#&$ out of it? Of course they will leave the game in a position in wich some will have tons of it. Not a fair system. If the mission would be higly challanging nobody would care for it, but going on in an endless isn't really difficult or challanging if you do not want it to be.

I still think that the eidolons are a good way to go even if they should be more difficult imo. and more tide in with other aspects of the game.

 

 

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

2 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

It's when you build a team around exploiting a CC ability. For example having a Quake Banshee/Bless for 75% DR and energy/Gara for 90% DR/Buff Rhino, all together they would just sit in a room and kill the map. If you're literally only pushing 1 button and there's no threat of losing, then you're cheesing. If you're just playing a frame and using it's strengths to your advantage, sounds like you're just playing the game. Like Valkyr eventually is going to run out of energy and be vulnerable to getting lit up, Ash will come out of stealth or stand in a bad spot which results in him getting lit up, when Zephyrs Turbulence falls off there's a moment of vulnerability and she can be meleed.  Obviously some frames are much better than others at certain roles, but on their own they can't literally be unstoppable.

I also hate camping with a cheese team, it's just not fun. Playing Survival with your friends just using whatever is always fun though, we didn't organize a squad to sit in a corner. During that match we were all spaced out killing stuff. We were still within Desecrate range, but there was no organization there. It's all about the fun and challenge.

I missed the part where you mention that items are farmed/bought and not just handed to said players. If you invest into a game time then in return you should be rewarded with less time to kill. "Cheese", as you put it, wasn't just given out. It was earned. If that is not obtainable then honestly why play a game in the first place. What you find fun others do not. So instead of giving players that option (Ash rework for instance) you force people to play how you like to play while all this time you simply could have just left the game or played solo.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, WindigoTP said:

And yes, everything is cheese, because the game itself made out of cheese. So you literlly can't play without cheese.

Then cheese is irrelevant 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

There is a responsibility of the developer to not give us reasons to sit for hours and hours and hours and play the game. People have died playing video games for too long.

If someone wants to sit for god knows how long and play a game, that's their choice. But developers cannot add carrots to their game to make people play for that long.

Wow, that's an extreme amount of fear mongering. I'm pretty sure it's the players responsibility to look after themselves, having the responsibility lie with anyone else is ludicrous. Plus, it's already a thing with Endless Fissures, so that sounds just false.

 

18 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

However the moment that you put in a reward for it, everybody will feel compelled to do it. They wont do it for the "challange" they will do it for the rewards. If you put in a method to obtain more than playing normally ppl will do it no matter what it takes or will winge because they have no time or the willingness to do it but they will feel left behind.

So what? Look at raiding in any MMO, some do it for the rewards, some do it for the challenge, some do it just because it's fun do to with friends. You can't generalize that all players will cheese it. Saying that people are going to cheese it or that casual players don't have the time shouldn't deter it from being a thing. Casual players can't do cutting edge raiding either because it takes time, then why is it still the best thing in every MMO? The endgame!

 

23 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Do do you really think if somebody has a brilliant vaulted relic wont want to cheese the S#&$ out of it? Of course they will leave the game in a position in wich some will have tons of it. Not a fair system. If the mission would be higly challanging nobody would care for it, but going on in an endless isn't really difficult or challanging if you do not want it to be.

I think that's a fair criticism, it would make vaulted relics quite broken! Perhaps a tweak on how they work would be able to solve that problem though, like Vaulted relics can't be Brilliant, or it takes 5-10 relics to make a Brilliant. 

 

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

What you find fun others do not. So instead of giving players that option (Ash rework for instance) you force people to play how you like to play while all this time you simply could have just left the game or played solo.

I don't understand? Do you think I was playing with people who wanted to cheese and wasn't having it or something? I don't play with organized groups like that to begin with, so there's nothing to leave.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

So what? Look at raiding in any MMO, some do it for the rewards, some do it for the challenge, some do it just because it's fun do to with friends. You can't generalize that all players will cheese it. Saying that people are going to cheese it or that casual players don't have the time shouldn't deter it from being a thing. Casual players can't do cutting edge raiding either because it takes time, then why is it still the best thing in every MMO? The endgame!

If we wanna be real and honest about this, people normally does raids in any game because of the rewards. Because of that in any MMO periodically a new raid will be added with new rewards. If those missions are enjoyable to play they will continue to do them even if they already have the reward because you still get something out of it to sell, if those mission are bad they will continue to play them because they need the ingame currency they can sell it for, if not they just wont play them at all. I do not doubt that there is ppl who will invent things to make it more challanging and do them for fun or show off videos like 8 x frame LoR and so on. But the majority do not bother with it. Add a whole new system for a handful of ppl that by the way can be exploitative just not worth it.

Look if you wanna do it for fun or personal challange then you can already do it. T4S is still there, nothing to stop you. If you wanna do it for prime parts there are endless fissures and the problem with those in my opinion is the tediousness of getting the reactant that doesn't drop fast enough and I do not feel like I'm playing freely. Apart from that it's a perfectly fine and a fair system for everybody.

What you are proposing though is not. It would mean to use one relic with a bit more traces to be able to get potentially endless rewards out of. The old system was removed/reworked to avoid exploitive behavior and we didn't even had vaulting yet. Today would be even worst because of that and we are even stronger and can go on for longer with less effort.

It's not gonna happen.

Endless kuva missions would be cool because you get a reward that is not directly tradable and even if you have a million of it it doesn't garantee that you will get something out of it. You can potentially roll away all of it and still could not give you a substatial advantage if any.

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

I think that's a fair criticism, it would make vaulted relics quite broken! Perhaps a tweak on how they work would be able to solve that problem though, like Vaulted relics can't be Brilliant, or it takes 5-10 relics to make a Brilliant. 
 

To comment on that I'd need to know how you exactly propose for this to work. In any case it wouldn't avoid the problem that it would just enable you to get potentially more rewards as you go on longer . It still doesn't adress how to avoid ppl exploiting it.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nirrel

[DirePresent]

21 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

If we wanna be real and honest about this, people normally does raids in any game because of the rewards. Because of that in any MMO periodically a new raid will be added with new rewards. If those missions are enjoyable to play they will continue to do them even if they already have the reward because you still get something out of it to sell, if those mission are bad they will continue to play them because they need the ingame currency they can sell it for, if not they just wont play them at all. I do not doubt that there is ppl who will invent things to make it more challanging and do them for fun or show off videos like 8 x frame LoR and so on. But the majority do not bother with it. Add a whole new system for a handful of ppl that by the way can be exploitative just not worth it.

That's exactly my problem with LoR, Arcane Grace or Energize have a too low chance to spawn. Doing so many efforts just to get a frigging Arcane Ice for example doesn't feel justified at all.

[Danjal777]

Just play mot, eventually you will finf your challenge.

It would be cool if you could scale a mission by being able to start from any rotation c that you have made it to.  Like starting a mission on 60 waves difficuly.  The reward for it though...that would be tough.

[Volinus7]

21 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

It does go together, my suggestions add in no way add to powercreep. Kuva is already a thing, it doesn't powercreep anymore than it already has, it's the same case with prime parts. Do you know what powercreep means? Sounds like you're just throwing scary words out.

It doesn't, you making this topic is the proof.

You even asked what's the point of getting more power.

 

Do you consider incentives that don't give you power as 'incentives'? In some ways you want to exchange it for new gears anyway.

Warframe is simple, no balance>powercreep>no challenge>no endgame.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Volinus7

[Kimimoto]

13 hours ago, Nirrel said:

If we wanna be real and honest about this, people normally does raids in any game because of the rewards.

Yes, isn't this proving my point? Nobody will do Endurance Endless because there's no reason to. The incentive of rewards gets players into challenging content, trying to improve their play, trying to increase their power by formaing/upgrading mods, getting rivens. It gives all these systems purpose where right now they basically have 0 purpose because anyone with a bit of knowledge can take the base frames/weapons.

 

13 hours ago, Nirrel said:

Look if you wanna do it for fun or personal challange then you can already do it. T4S is still there, nothing to stop you.

No. I want a reason to do it, otherwise me and my friends aren't going to bother. We're also not going to be challenged and since they don't love the game like I do. Guess what?! They quit the game because there's no reason to progress! There are more players like us too, there's no way that there aren't.

 

13 hours ago, Nirrel said:

Add a whole new system for a handful of ppl that by the way can be exploitative just not worth it.

OH NO! Some people who get a comp together will cheese the game mode and gain what? Kuva and some prime parts? God forbid they could roll a Riven more than twice an hour and hand in trash for Ducats. Really? That's a reason to ruin the fun for everyone else?

 

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Do you consider incentives that don't give you power as 'incentives'? In some ways you want to exchange it for new gears anyway.

Yes. It's almost like making some platinum is a good incentive, or getting a bunch of Ducats together for skins and AxiA2 relics.

[Volinus7]

10 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Yes. It's almost like making some platinum is a good incentive, or getting a bunch of Ducats together for skins and AxiA2 relics.

Plats? Lololol

 

[Kimimoto]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Plats? Lololol

 

Yeah you know the thing you get from doing basically anything in the game. Credits, Endo, Prime Parts, Mods, Weapon Parts, Syndicate Rewards, Rivens, Dog Imprints, like do you not understand? It feels like I'm talking to people who don't understand what I'm saying because English isn't their native language.

[Volinus7]

48 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Yeah you know the thing you get from doing basically anything in the game. Credits, Endo, Prime Parts, Mods, Weapon Parts, Syndicate Rewards, Rivens, Dog Imprints, like do you not understand? It feels like I'm talking to people who don't understand what I'm saying because English isn't their native language.

You are asking a pointless incremental clicking game like Warframe to have a point which is self contradictory. 

Those incentives aren't exclusive to endgame and you have plenty of them in a game without endgame, "endgame" by your definition is just another redundant layer of what you've done. 

Difficulties wise, Warframe is boring and lacks difficulty because you can easily mow down a lot of enemies by unfair invisibility/invulnerability/CC spams duh. 

Don't bind "fun" with "reward". 

"Fun"  is related to "gameplay". 

"Reward" is related to "gratification". 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Volinus7

[Kimimoto]

31 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Difficulties wise, Warframe is boring and lacks difficulty because you can easily mow down a lot of enemies by unfair invisibility/invulnerability/CC spams duh. 

Don't bind "fun" with "reward". 

"Fun"  is related to "gameplay". 

"Reward" is related to "gratification". 

Why not "bind" fun with reward? Why does something fun and challenging have to not have rewards? Eidolons have rewards, Sorties have rewards, Kuva Floods have rewards, Raids have rewards, Old Endless Void had rewards. It's one of the reason we do them, but the other reasons are for challenge and fun. Having that combination makes for a great game, but lacking reward makes for a non-game. Besides people trying to set records on nodes, nobody is going to do Endless past C.

Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be a thing.

 

40 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Those incentives aren't exclusive to endgame and you have plenty of them in a game without endgame, "endgame" by your definition is just another redundant layer of what you've done. 

So what your saying is the game already has incentive everywhere, so there doesn't need to be incentive in Endless play? How does that make any sense or is in anyway relevant? Because there's incentive elsewhere, Endless shouldn't have incentive?

[Zlickda]

Another alternative for improving Endless in my opinion would be to have a "Hard mode". Example, Nimus on Eris starts at level 30, in "Hard mode" it would start at 70-80. Or It could start the same but scale faster per 5 min, so instead of playing 30 min to get level 40 enemies you would get them by 10-15 min. Kuva either in rotation or available in mission would be great too.  I just don't want to be required to play for 90 min to get to enemies that I have to use my brain a little to kill.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Blackwingarmy

[Volinus7]

4 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Why not "bind" fun with reward? Why does something fun and challenging have to not have rewards? Eidolons have rewards, Sorties have rewards, Kuva Floods have rewards, Raids have rewards, Old Endless Void had rewards. It's one of the reason we do them, but the other reasons are for challenge and fun. Having that combination makes for a great game, but lacking reward makes for a non-game. Besides people trying to set records on nodes, nobody is going to do Endless past C.

Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be a thing.

 

So what your saying is the game already has incentive everywhere, so there doesn't need to be incentive in Endless play? How does that make any sense or is in anyway relevant? Because there's incentive elsewhere, Endless shouldn't have incentive?

Reward sensitization in a skinner box makes you crave for more rewards, it's just a player retention system and has nothing to do with fun. 

Since it's a player retention system, it has to be rate limited to prevent reward inflation or desensitization. 

Asking for more rewards is not new in this forum but it is futile as DE do view the current grind fest as 'generous' enough and many players (not including me of course) think that way too. 

Endless scaling with cheese gate that gives more rewards is definitely not in any pipelines. DE have no idea how to reward those people who reached lvl3500+ after 5hrs+ of cheesing. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Volinus7

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Reward sensitization in a skinner box makes you crave for more rewards, it's just a player retention system and has nothing to do with fun. 

Alright? That's what the endless gameplay is for, it's a fun challenge. The rewards don't have to be fun, they just need to give incentive. 

 

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Endless scaling with cheese gate that gives more rewards is definitely not in any pipelines. DE have no idea how to reward those people who reached lvl3500+ after 5hrs+ of cheesing. 

Once again, these few people are going to ruin it for the rest of us? They don't even give a damn anyway, they have more relics than they can spend. If they have a "Brilliant" relic guess what nothing changes for these people, so why are they even a reason to ruin the potential incentive for the rest of us? 

 

I'm pretty much done with your posts though. I feel like a reporter talking to a politician, when I ask a question or try to progress the discussion it's like talking to a wall. Just talking around the questions I'm asking and throwing ideas and "arguments" into the fray hoping something sticks. Let's try something else.

 

Currently what's the reason to Forma anything? What's the point of all this powercreep when there's nothing to use it on? My friend who was playing Nekros at level 200+ only had 1 forma in it, it wasn't even a complete build. Where's the incentive to max out anything?

[Nirrel]

7 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Yes, isn't this proving my point? Nobody will do Endurance Endless because there's no reason to. The incentive of rewards gets players into challenging content, trying to improve their play, trying to increase their power by formaing/upgrading mods, getting rivens. It gives all these systems purpose where right now they basically have 0 purpose because anyone with a bit of knowledge can take the base frames/weapons.

My point was that most ppl would do it only for the reward. As I said several times there is nothing really challanging in doing endless at this point in this game, unless you invent stuff to make it challanging. Give back the old reward system to it and ppl will do it without problem just for the superior gain depending how much time they have to play the game and not because they are so skillful. I did endless runs up to 7 hour and I repeat the only skill requiered was not to fall asleep on it.

However I do aknowlege that there is some ppl who find it enjoyable to do it, but they can do it already if they please so. There is the old void still and there are endless fissures. The only thing that you could argue that you cannot choose as it is what kind of endless fissure to do right now. I wouldn't mind if they would be accessable all time but that is another discussion.

7 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

No. I want a reason to do it, otherwise me and my friends aren't going to bother. We're also not going to be challenged and since they don't love the game like I do. Guess what?! They quit the game because there's no reason to progress! There are more players like us too, there's no way that there aren't.

You have endless fissures if for you the only possibility for fun and challange is in endless gaining prime part.

I personally still think that endgame content should be something else.

7 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

OH NO! Some people who get a comp together will cheese the game mode and gain what? Kuva and some prime parts? God forbid they could roll a Riven more than twice an hour and hand in trash for Ducats. Really? That's a reason to ruin the fun for everyone else?

I hardly suspect that or you do not even read what I write or you just wanna twist it to make your point. In the same post you quoted :

21 hours ago, Nirrel said:

Endless kuva missions would be cool because you get a reward that is not directly tradable and even if you have a million of it it doesn't garantee that you will get something out of it. You can potentially roll away all of it and still could not give you a substatial advantage if any.

 

7 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Alright? That's what the endless gameplay is for, it's a fun challenge. The rewards don't have to be fun, they just need to give incentive. 

 

Once again, these few people are going to ruin it for the rest of us? They don't even give a damn anyway, they have more relics than they can spend. If they have a "Brilliant" relic guess what nothing changes for these people, so why are they even a reason to ruin the potential incentive for the rest of us? 

 

What you don't want to understand that the moment you put it back ppl will feel compelled to do it only because they can gain more. Of something btw that the market is already saturated with and really doen't need even more.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

7 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

since they don't love the game like I do. Guess what?! They quit the game because there's no reason to progress!

I'm guessing they were not going to stick around anyways.