Hunhow's villain decay and how to prevent it

[Slenderminion]

The first cinematic quest of the game introduced us to what seems to be the central antagonist of Warframe's main storyline.

• Natah gave us a first glimpse of him.
• The Second Dream had him forge an alliance with the Stalker to destroy the Tenno once and for all, succeeding in getting us out of our comfort zone but getting repelled.
• Octavia's Anthem centered around him trying to take over Suda's consciousness and then kidnapping Ordis, but everyone made it out unharmed in the end.

While he only had two real appearances as a questline antagonist so far (which is already more than most villains in the game) his most recent performance makes me worry about his reputation as nemesis of the Orokin and Tenno. Already i have seen a few people talking about how they don't see him as the threat he first seemed to be anymore.

I want to avoid this issue by bringing it up right now before his credibility drops any more, since i do think he's a potentially interesting villain and should be treated as a threat considering his role in both the lore and story. The main thing that can cause the so called "villain decay" is by having an antagonist be repeatedly defeated without any consequence for his actions (ala Team Rocket from Pokemon).

What do i think needs to happen in order to save him as an antagonist? Hunhow needs some victories. We as players need to be made aware that this guy is competent and dangerous.

Example: Hunhow lures us into a ship under the guise of another one of his schemes. When we get on board we find that Teshin is trying to stop him aswell. Hunhow sends one of his stronger fragments (maybe Tuhalyst or something) to the ship that cannot be destroyed by conventional weaponry, forcing us to engage it in our Operator form. At this point Hunhow activates his trap that somehow temporarily disables our ability to transfer into our warframe, leaving us vulnerable. We manage to defeat the fragment, but Hunhow starts to destroy the ship itself, us still unable to use Transference. As the ship starts to blow up more fragments attack us and Teshin. Teshin then sacrifices himself by holding off the Sentients and allowing us to escape.

When we later return to recollect our Warframe from the ruins and attempt to reconnect with it we discover that Teshin has passed away.

In this example we foil Hunhow's plan to get rid of us, yet he still has the last laugh as we lose a valuable and beloved ally (who at the same time repays his debt from War Within). Thus he has reestablished his role as enemy who has to be taken seriously. (Note that with this kind of "victory" it would have to be a character who has been established in an earlier Quest as it wouldn't have that much impact otherwise)

I really hope you take this to heart (or let alone read it) since having the main antagonist of the game becoming a laughing stock would be a big shame. It's a good thing that he hasn't appeared that often yet, which means you can still save his villain status.

The main villain needs to make a big impact beyond just their first appearance.

Alright, have a good day and night to you whoever you are!

 

Note: The example above was just meant as exactly that: an example. I did not mean they should kill off Teshin or use that exact situation. I merely meant that a villain should have importance and impact on the setting and plot and not just serve as somebody the heroes can repeatedly defeat, as they would soon lose their threat-factor.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Slenderminion

[Zeyez]

the basic problem is Teshin is linked to conclave, who will take his place? one of the Conclave cephalons? (they are broken, somewhat... just thinking about Vur being the manager gives me chill on the spine)

Edited December 12, 2017 by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just need the right words... and the left ones too.

[Slenderminion]

24 minutes ago, Zeyez said:

the basic problem is Teshin is linked to conclave, who will take his place? one of the Conclave cephalons? (they are broken, somewhat... just thinking about Vur being the manager gives me chill on the spine)

Yeah i know, i had the same thought even before i made that example. I simply intended to elaborate what i meant by "making an impact".

I just don't want Hunhow to end up as "just another villain" in Warframe's line-up. He's the main antagonist (or at least seems to be), and as such his plans should mean something beyond just "You foiled me again! I'll get you next time!".

[BlackCoMerc]

Scripted failures in games are...problematic.

I played a story quest from a mod in Fallout New Vegas that walked the player into an obvious trap.

I loaded an earlier save and uninstalled the mod.

You need to be VERY careful scripting player failure. That can really backfire.

My suggestion: use environmental storytelling to tell if Hunhow and other villain atrocities. Have us fight their forces in burned out cities, half destroyed passenger vessels they ransacked, etc. Don't script failure.

[Kyryo]

As fas as i'd like to personally kill Tenshin in the most slow and painful way, he is the last orokin alive for what the know. we somewhat need him XD

Now on the other hand, why not let Suda die? Kappa

[Slenderminion]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Scripted failures in games are...problematic.

I played a story quest from a mod in Fallout New Vegas that walked the player into an obvious trap.

I loaded an earlier save and uninstalled the mod.

You need to be VERY careful scripting player failure. That can really backfire.

My suggestion: use environmental storytelling to tell if Hunhow and other villain atrocities. Have us fight their forces in burned out cities, half destroyed passenger vessels they ransacked, etc. Don't script failure.

I was merely making an example. Of course there are other ways to show that the villain is a threat, like the ones you mentioned.

[FerroCutem]

I'm all for more Hunhow in any way shape or form.

[blazinvire]

It'd be awesome if he was a little more present, like if he had his own assassination squads that had certain requirements to spawn, and he just rips apart your mission.

Except that could be annoying in some cases.

But if it was more like a War Effort, maybe you're helping out friendly factions of Grineer and Corpus, and he can send his fragments in to wreck shop and you gotta push them back.

But yeah, More Hunhow.

[Nazrethim]

Why not. instead of killing a beloved character with lots of potential, just make him do something else, like blowing up a planet that then ceases to exist in the Starchart?

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

2 hours ago, Kyryo said:

As fas as i'd like to personally kill Tenshin in the most slow and painful way, he is the last orokin alive for what the know. we somewhat need him XD

Actually, it is revealed via the Second Dream that Alad V is actually an Orokin.

[peterc3]

5 hours ago, Slenderminion said:

Already i have seen a few people talking about how they don't see him as the threat he first seemed to be anymore.

Is this why you wrote all this? DE doesn't take orders from the forums and neither should you take whatever meme garbage is flowing through it at any given time as representative of the player base on the whole.

You are forgetting this is a multiplayer online game. The first time you defeat the Arthas in WoW is rather impactful, given the history of the Warcraft story. Cut to the dozenth time you've beat him for loot. Whatever the villain does, he only does it once, you still beat him repeatedly, whatever reason for beating him is essentially erased.

We haven't fought Hunhow. He is still buried on Uranus. If he could disrupt Transference, the Sentients would have stomped the Orokin totally and completely. Your example quest doesn't match with existing lore.

Why does DE need to dump their entire story because you feel it isn't being told fast enough? How are they supposed to run a game and apparently do what they already do, only much faster? If we assume they work as quickly as possible, this is a request that cannot be fulfilled.

[Phobonaut]

4 hours ago, Kyryo said:

he is the last orokin alive for what the know.

He's a Dax. Basically an Orokin-made Captain America, a supersoldier.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Actually, it is revealed via the Second Dream that Alad V is actually an Orokin.

Alad V isn't an Orokin. Hunhow just doesn't understand the difference between humans and Orokin, they all look the same to him.

 

The only 'surviving' "Orokin" are the Grineer queens IIRC, who were born as twins which is a taboo to Orokin, so they should have been executed - but the whole Tenno murdering the Seven Emperors caused the Orokin Empire to collapse so the two girls weren't killed. As seen in TWW they count as Orokin as in that they can use Orokin abilities and technology, but they're not truly Orokin like say Ballas was.

Imagine if you will if the daughter of some American politician would create the Kingdom of America after the USA collapses after some post-apocalyptic event. She's linked to the former US government because her dad was a politician, but she never was a part of the US government.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Slenderminion said:

I was merely making an example. Of course there are other ways to show that the villain is a threat, like the ones you mentioned.

Fair enough.

I do agree with you in principal. Villians need to be impactful. We need to feel as if they have not inly an agenda, but the strength to carry it out. And right now, villians are lacking a sense of presence.

[(XBOX)Madness103]

I sure DE are planning something big with Hunhow, maybe in the form of a raid, story quest, or something similar, but I doubt we will see this coming soon, maybe in one year or maybe three? I mean it's not like they are just gonna leave such a awesome antagonist with only two quests. 

I don't think he will be in the sacrifice though. I have a feeling that is more about "The Man in the Wall" than Hunhow.

Edited December 13, 2017 by (XB1)Madness103

[Slenderminion]

Just now, peterc3 said:

Is this why you wrote all this? DE doesn't take orders from the forums and neither should you take whatever meme garbage is flowing through it at any given time as representative of the player base on the whole.

You are forgetting this is a multiplayer online game. The first time you defeat the Arthas in WoW is rather impactful, given the history of the Warcraft story. Cut to the dozenth time you've beat him for loot. Whatever the villain does, he only does it once, you still beat him repeatedly, whatever reason for beating him is essentially erased.

We haven't fought Hunhow. He is still buried on Uranus. If he could disrupt Transference, the Sentients would have stomped the Orokin totally and completely. Your example quest doesn't match with existing lore.

Why does DE need to dump their entire story because you feel it isn't being told fast enough? How are they supposed to run a game and apparently do what they already do, only much faster? If we assume they work as quickly as possible, this is a request that cannot be fulfilled.

I can see your point, but i think you may misunderstand me a little bit so i want to try and clear up a few things.

• The example i gave was just supposed to be that: an example. It's neither supposed to match with existing lore nor tell anybody exactly how to do things. It was merely meant to show what i meant by "making an impact" and nothing else, so sorry if it made you think i was making a definitive suggestion. There are many other ways to show the danger that comes from a villain.
• I am not a representative of those that endlessly complain about the game or the "meme garbage" as you call it (i'm not even on the forums that often). I wrote all this because i think Hunhow has potential, and all those (very few, actually) impressions did was making me think that i should probably say something before the story progresses any further rather than later. They had no influence on my thoughts otherwise. Yet again, i can see how that can be misinterpreted (seems to be a thing with my thread).
• I am very aware of the nature of games like this. Having a villain lose impact after defeating them over and over again is just natural. And exactly there is the point i am trying to make. The more often we defeat him over the course of the story the less of a threat he becomes. But there's a big difference between having a villain lose impact due to their performance in the story (ex.: being foiled for the x-th time) or for reasons that are outside of the context of the plot (ex.: grinding for loot). I want to prevent the former by bringing it up now.
• This is not an order, a demand or even a suggestion. This is just an expression of my worries of what could happen.
• ...Where in my thread am i talking about DE having to speed things up? Okay, i guess the topic alone kinda implies that. Of course DE should take their time to develop the story and events that are going to take place. That would otherwise be just as bad if not worse than making an ineffective villain.

I sincerely hope this clears up a few things. Sorry again that it gave you a wrong impression of what i was trying to say.

[Kinetos]

We've beaten Alad V twice canonicaly. On Jupiter and Eris. And he's still not dead. So yes we can fight the same guy more than once. 

Speaking of whom, I think Alad V could be killed for real by Hunhow. He's a long standing character that we don't depend on for daily functions like some people do with Teshin, and some people like him so it would be impactful. 

Killing him for real wouldn't remove access to the old boss fights either, or Mutalist Alad V would have removed access to Zanuka Alad V. 

[Phalanx22]

 Problem is that Quests (any story update really) take way too long to come out and often offer little impact, we had a dance off with hunhow at the end of octavias quest buts its been so long i forgot most things about it like what was the purpose of it? i dont remember sure he was there but so what he wasnt threatening we beat him by jumping to platforms i felt like i played Crash Bandicoot. 

 Even if Hunhow "wins" and even if he kills some throwaway character or blows up the planet the new quest took part  that wont impact the main game too much and by the time of the next story progresion nobody will care anymore simply because too much time has passed