Shajirr Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) With the current Focus gain methods, vast majority of players are not incentivized to spend platinum on lenses. In fact, most people view it as a complete waste of platinum. This needlessly cripples one of the monetisation methods of Warframe. There is an enormous disparity between efficiency of focus acquisition methods. Stealth kill bonus multiplier increases focus gain by 5 times, and Naramon bonus adds further +45%, resulting in 7,25 times more focus. This effectively means that not utilising these bonuses would be a huge time waste, as you will be gaining focus 7 times slower. Existance of Naramon bonus means that any ranged weapons will be inherently worse for the purposes of gaining focus. These two bonuses are the most efficiently utilised by two frames - Equinox and Banshee. Furthermore, there only exists a very small number of melee weapons suitable for focus gain with these frames. So, only the lenses which are put into those select few frames and melee weapons will be rewarding for players. If players put lenses into their favourite frames and weapons instead, they quickly discover that they gain almost no focus in the regular play, since they won't be utilising the abovementioned bonuses, and will probably have some ranged weapons without lenses equipped, further reducing focus gain. This leads to two paths - either players max out Zenurik energy restore node and forget about focus (and lenses) entirely, or they put (extremely few) lenses on optimal frames and weapons only. How the situation can be improved: - completely remove the influence of stealth kill multiplier and Naramon Affinity Spike passive on focus gain. They should only work on affinity, not focus. - either increase overall focus gain by 2-3 times, or introduce a scaling focus gain efficiency multiplier - for example players will start with 500% increased focus gain each day, and the multiplier will steadily decline as more focus is gained, introducing a soft focus cap of sorts. With these changes it would become possible to attain reasonable amounts of focus through normal play, so the players will actually gain benefit from outfitting their favourite weapons and frames with lenses, and stop viewing it as a complete waste of platinum. Edited December 13, 2017 by Shajirr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorfirebox Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 They've actually already talked about giving a bonus to focus gain at the start of each day, which drops over playtime to 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrmius_Prime Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) I've personally bought every single greater lens I've ever had. I'm not waiting 3 goddamn days to get a new loadout all Lens'ed up and also wasting Forma in the process, not to mention the other 24 hour wait on building Eidolon lenses. Screw that. I'll instead farm 2 prime parts, sell them and be done with it l0l. The reason people absolutely hated the regular lens rewards back when they were a sortie rewards was the fact that everyone just bought the greater ones because of how extremely cheap they are. IMO people are indeed incentivised to do so. Edited December 13, 2017 by Wyrmius_Prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwoply Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 In this situation you don't need to nerf the one of the only viable methods of gaining focus fast, instead they should bring all other methods up (passive focus gain etc.), which they're working towards at the moment with the Diminishing returns system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Temp0- Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) Focus is such garbage and a resident sleeper experience that it's not worth even farming, let alone spending money on the lenses. Eidolon could've been an okay alternative to farm focus but 25k per brilliant shard is a joke so you just unbound ~5-8 passives, mind sprint and energy dash and are done with focus for next couple of years anyway. Edited December 13, 2017 by -Temp0- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snib Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said: I've personally bought every single greater lens I've ever had. I'm not waiting 3 goddamn days to get a new loadout all Lens'ed up and also wasting Forma in the process, not to mention the other 24 hour wait on building Eidolon lenses. Screw that. I'll instead farm 2 prime parts, sell them and be done with it l0l. The reason people absolutely hated the regular lens rewards back when they were a sortie rewards was the fact that everyone just bought the greater ones because of how extremely cheap they are. IMO people are indeed incentivised to do so. Very much all of this. I bought all of my greaters. And I don't think that many players actually do the stealth + naramon farm. I know I never farmed focus at all. Focus now caps out from a single endless mission or two (depending on how long you run each), and much faster even under Focus 1.0. If you want to incentivize lense sales, first make the focus system more interesting. Just as under Focus 1.0, once you got your Zenurik and your Naramon, you're basically done with it, the rest is just operator circle-jerk. I didn't care about focus then and I don't care about focus now - slap a few lenses on your favourite stuff and you'll end up earning it, anyway. But if there actually was some interesting abilities in the trees, the possibility to bind school selection to loadouts to make you actually want to use more than one school, that could be an incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shajirr Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 22 minutes ago, Eggplants said: In this situation you don't need to nerf the one of the only viable methods of gaining focus fast, instead they should bring all other methods up (passive focus gain etc.), which they're working towards at the moment with the Diminishing returns system. You do if you want a balanced system. Currently if you're not running Adaro you are gaining at best 7 times less focus per orb. In order to equalise different methods of gaining focus you need to trim the outliers, especially if they are so extreme as stealth+Affinity Spike combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shajirr Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) Quote And I don't think that many players actually do the stealth + naramon farm. I know I never farmed focus at all. I too never farmed Focus before, and I could afford a whopping half of two nodes for several months of play. There are examples when you can max daily focus, nmely mentioned endless missions. But what if you never run endless missions? What if you do some alerts, power struggle missions, PoE bounties and a sortie? You're #*($%%@? Edited December 13, 2017 by Shajirr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shajirr Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said: I've personally bought every single greater lens I've ever had. Me too, all 4 of them. Equinox, Banshee, Atterax and some other frame. Running with some other frame resulted in such pitiful focus gains that it is not even worth mentioning. I am not lensing 3 weapons I will use just to gain 2k focus per orb (if that) in regular missions. My point was that putting lenses into most frames and weapons results in almost no focus gain, due to the system balanced around multipliers which you will not be using in regular play, therefore players are buying much less lenses as a result of this. Edited December 13, 2017 by Shajirr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorsContraction Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Now that lenses are easy to come by, I spend 35 plat on the forma bundle which allows me to build 3 greater lenses instead of buying a single greater lens for 40 plat. I'd say that's the biggest current issue with them. Don't agree with op's opinion personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukinoki Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shajirr said: - completely remove the influence of stealth kill multiplier and Naramon Affinity Spike passive on focus gain. They should only work on affinity, not focus. So basically: "Hey lets make the Naramon tree utterly useless and pointless as it loses the only thing that its useful for!" And please don't say "But its still useful for leveling your melee weapon!" that doesn't really hold water when you can go from 0-30 in under 20 minutes already. With a change like this I honestly don't see a reason why anyone would ever use naramon with such lack-luster passives. The only things that a change like this would achieve is: -Making farming focus even more annoying and grindy -Making it so that instead of 3 trees that people use (Madurai, Naramon and Zenurik) we're now down to 2! This would just be a needless nerf to a school that really needs some buffs. Edited December 13, 2017 by Tsukinoki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul-scar Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 There is no incentive to farm focus at all anyway. There are almost no missions that cant be soloed with an irradiated disarm vanilla loki and a ceramic dagger with covert lethality on it. If there were reasons to require the little emo guy maybe it would be incentive. If the schools allowed special mods to be equipped on your warframe specific to the lens installed and there were instances and missions this would be an essential advantage then sure. Like a permanent +4 energy/sec on your nova using a greater (insert lens) and a 3 part Naramon only mod set (Aura, Exilus normal mod) that give 1.3 energy per sec per mod. Whatever there are so many way to implement these into gameplay. Instead of introducing something fun and polished before persuading a player base to part with $$$$, DE went from how can we persuade the player base to part with $$$ and hashed a buggy unnecessary game mechanic together and hoped the $$$ would roll in. Not knocking the way DE earns a living, just saying something need to be ATTRACTIVE and FUN before people will be willing to shell out the green. I am aware you need to shoot the legs and arms of the eidolons with emo teen but it is hardly a compelling reason to care enough to spend money or spend time farming focus. This is my opinion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RistN Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Soul-scar said: There is no incentive to farm focus at all anyway. There are almost no missions that cant be soloed with an irradiated disarm vanilla loki and a ceramic dagger with covert lethality on it. If there were reasons to require the little emo guy maybe it would be incentive. This is youre opinion but I would have to disagree.Operators are now more than useful.Way you revive,heal,get energy,way you parkour have significantly changed and got better with focus 2.0. Also I just got Magus Elevate set which is in my opinion one of the best arcanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snib Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Soul-scar said: I am aware you need to shoot the legs and arms of the eidolons with emo teen but it is hardly a compelling reason to care enough to spend money or spend time farming focus. Fun fact: Focus abilities don't affect the eidolon. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiabolusUrsus Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said: So basically: "Hey lets make the Naramon tree utterly useless and pointless as it loses the only thing that its useful for!" And please don't say "But its still useful for leveling your melee weapon!" that doesn't really hold water when you can go from 0-30 in under 20 minutes already. I mostly agree with this in that removing the Focus benefit would make the passive pointless. In that case, the passive should be replaced. 7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said: With a change like this I honestly don't see a reason why anyone would ever use naramon with such lack-luster passives. The only things that a change like this would achieve is: -Making farming focus even more annoying and grindy -Making it so that instead of 3 trees that people use (Madurai, Naramon and Zenurik) we're now down to 2! This would just be a needless nerf to a school that really needs some buffs. I don't agree with this. Power Spike is amazing for melee builds. When maxed you can effectively never break combo with only Drifting Contact equipped. Before, it was necessary to run Body Count as well to reliably keep combo in between Defense waves. Executing Dash is also stupidly powerful. It has no duration. Enemies are open to finishers until death, and they take increased finisher damage. On demand. For free. The rest of the tree need help, sure, but Naramon is far from useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marthrym Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) Focus gain overall is garbage. Nerfing the one way to get some in a slightly less than unbearable way to hell and barely making the worst possible way slightly less terrible than it was before is the single worst possible way to go. "All" the devs need to do is make the overal experience enjoyable instead of it being an enormous grindfest that effectively locks away this part of the game for a vast majority of players because they don't have the time nor the will (or simply don't care) to spend hours on end every day doing one single solitary, painfully tedious and boring thing for wildly varrying rewards. Edited December 13, 2017 by Marthrym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I think you mean Equinox and Ivara? I dunno I wouldn't use Banshee to stealth farm. Either way I call it sleep farm these days since actual stealth farming is not practical. DE went through a month period where they threw out 8 or so direct or indirect nerfs to stealth farming. Seems obvious they wanted it dead. To be honest I think Focus has been trivialized as of the last update. I've max every node and still have millions of points left. A system designed to keep long term players busy between content updates no longer functions far as I'm concerned. The Focus gain situation would be eased quite a bit once DE realized that no one likes Convergence and they change back to a base number at all times. One of their other mistakes was having a daily cap in the first place. Doing so makes players treat the system like a "Daily Quest" instead of something you gain naturally as you play. Their interest in changing this to a soft cap has come 2 years too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul-scar Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 4 hours ago, Marthrym said: Focus gain overall is garbage. Nerfing the one way to get some in a slightly less than unbearable way to hell and barely making the worst possible way slightly less terrible than it was before is the single worst possible way to go. "All" the devs need to do is make the overal experience enjoyable instead of it being an enormous grindfest that effectively locks away this part of the game for a vast majority of players because they don't have the time nor the will (or simply don't care) to spend hours on end every day doing one single solitary, painfully tedious and boring thing for wildly varrying rewards. This in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burned-Toast Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 15 hours ago, Tsukinoki said: -Making it so that instead of 3 trees that people use (Madurai, Naramon and Zenurik) we're now down to 2! b-but i use vazarin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shajirr Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Xzorn said: I think you mean Equinox and Ivara? I dunno I wouldn't use Banshee to stealth farm. No. You must be far behind the focus farming tech, as Ivara is super slow compared to Savage Silence Banshee, which is currently the fastest method available. Quote DE went through a month period where they threw out 8 or so direct or indirect nerfs to stealth farming Which? As long as stealth kills give you 5 times more affinity nothing else matters. Quote instead of something you gain naturally as you play. But you don't gain much focus natuarally at all, as long as focus gains are balanced around the absurd x5 times stealth multiplier. Removing Focus orbs doesn't do anything to address that. Stealth multiplier is a much bigger problem than those stupid orbs. Edited December 14, 2017 by Shajirr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shajirr Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Marthrym said: Nerfing the one way to get some in a slightly less than unbearable way to hell and barely making the worst possible way slightly less terrible than it was before is the single worst possible way to go. No. First of all, you somehow overlook that many people absolutely hate the stealth farming method in itself. So most efficient way to gain focus is horrible for them to actually play. I'd rather quit the game than farm focus everyday with Sleepquinox. And I would need to do this for how long was it now, 200 days? Secondly, idea is to get the focus gains to acceptable levels through normal play, so that you wouldn't need to focus farm if you don't want to do that, instead of being forced to do it with extremely specific setups which you might hate playing. Edited December 14, 2017 by Shajirr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 15 hours ago, Shajirr said: No. You must be far behind the focus farming tech, as Ivara is super slow compared to Savage Silence Banshee, which is currently the fastest method available. OH really? You need to shine some more light on this method. Honestly, I don't see it being more consistant, but maybe you have found/thought of a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snib Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: OH really? You need to shine some more light on this method. Honestly, I don't see it being more consistant, but maybe you have found/thought of a way. Because you can just press 3 once a minute and spin to win, clearing the map as fast as you can slide through it basically. Ivara doesn't even come close in my experience but I never played her much. Edited December 15, 2017 by Snib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 55 minutes ago, Snib said: Because you can just press 3 once a minute and spin to win, clearing the map as fast as you can slide through it basically. Ivara doesn't even come close in my experience but I never played her much. Then I was correct. It's not as consistant as just using Ivara or Equinox. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)fullblast35 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 maybe it can be seen this way for people who buy platinum, but someone who gets plat by farming and trading will go and get whatever he or she wants, mistake or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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