Mesa is Ember with Overheat

[(PSN)ninpy]

(This is my first post on the forums, I have tried to place this in it's appropriate catagory, and I would like to say a quick Hello!) 

*Overheat was a Warframe Ability which granted ember a degree of Damage Reduction whilst emitting an aura of fire damage to enemies in close range.

I don't usually compare warframes against eachother because one often seems better based on their role, however I couldn't resist comparing these two warframe's abilities since they are very similar BUT from a different time in warframe. Mesa was built to fight much higher level targets 100-140, whereas Ember was a vanilla warframe that was only designed to fight up to lv60-70 targets. I want to highlight the similarities between them and how Shatter Shield is very similar to Overheat, which was removed due to it being too potent in the mid-tier content Ember was designed for, but that was a long time ago, and things have changed, now we have a damage frame with a 95% Damage reduction, which also deflects bullets back at enemies. Furthermore, Mesa is far more destructive and effective in combat, both on paper and in-game.

Firstly lets look at Mesa's abilities. I'm not going to count the "1" powers because they are relatively bad and are rarely used across most warframes, Fireball and B.Battery both tickle the enemy with low damage and are a waste of energy, unless you are using condition overload.

Mesa's 2 is a Buff; it's widely regarded as stronger than Ember's 2,  Accelerant- also a buff, however, since Accelerant only effects enemies in the initial cast, and only boosts fire damage. Very niche indeed. Very similar powers, but mesa has a much stronger version.

Both Mesa and Ember's 4 are designed as damage abilities, however Mesa is extremely better scaled and has 30x the damage ember can put out and in very little time at all. There are many factors to consider, such as mesa's mediocre energy pool, and Peacemaker's heavy drain, however with Arcane Energise and Zenurik there really is no need to call that a negative. 

Mesa's 3 is Shatter Shield, a 95% Damage reduction.... Whoa! Hold on a second- That sounds alot like Overheat to me. Overheat is also far more powerful, granting 15% more damage nullification than Overheat- Which basically leaves me thinking that Mesa is a scaled up version of the old Ember, before she was nerfed, since all the abilities that matter are pretty much the same.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by (PS4)ninpy

[TKDancer]

if u think about it, gara is ember with overheat but negative range

 

ember is hurting, shes still functional as a CC frame at higher levels, but the lack of any scaling makes all of her abilities fall off and become just CC, and her 4 is only good CC with the aug

[TheGuyver]

This has been brought up numerous times.

[(PSN)ninpy]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

if u think about it, gara is ember with overheat but negative range

 

ember is hurting, shes still functional as a CC frame at higher levels, but the lack of any scaling makes all of her abilities fall off and become just CC, and her 4 is only good CC with the aug

You're right about Gara, but I wouldn't even call Fire Quake CC, it knock's down a few enemies near you, but what about all the others!? :D lol

[(PSN)ninpy]

1 minute ago, TheGuyver said:

This has been brought up numerous times.

Hey, that means it's a valid point though right? (I did check beforehand and didnt find anything)

1 minute ago, TheGuyver said:

This has been brought up numerous times.

 

[Gunslinger]

More likely Gara has an overheat like power - Splinter Storm.
Ember does need a rework. In 90% of the game she is a walking slaughterhouse and in sortie levels her kit falls short. 

[Inquizitor]

Its far worse than Ember with overheat.

Ember dmg output decreases significantly as enemy levels increases, but mesa does not scale at all, it pretty much f**ks up any lvl, any faction with 0 skill requisition. 

However this pathetic community "LOVES" this pathetic warframe because they cant properly play anything else, and will always say NO to any Mesa-related "NERF" ...more like balance.....its really sad...this is what Warframe has become.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

 Off-topic, I know, but actually, after advice from an Ember fan on the forums I readjusted my playstyle with her, the frame I passionately hated.

Accelerant is actually her most powerful ability, it's not bad. The rest of her kit sucks, and the secret is really that she's a weapon frame, not a caster. I use Energy Conversion and Growing Power on her, and don't build for WoF like most Ember noobs. Use weapons with Heat damage (I use Arca Plasmor with Corrosive and Heat) and apply Accelerant and watch everything melt for many levels to come. Her other abilities still benefit from this play style but they aren't the focus of it.

Don't get me wrong, she still needs a rework. But revamping the way I play her has actually made her worth a Warframe slot for the first time in all the years I've played this game, both in function beyond her terrible 4th power and in enjoyment of playing her.

[Terrornaut]

12 hours ago, TKDancer said:

if u think about it, gara is ember with overheat but negative range

 

ember is hurting, shes still functional as a CC frame at higher levels, but the lack of any scaling makes all of her abilities fall off and become just CC, and her 4 is only good CC with the aug

First part: absolutely utterly true.

Second part: Totally incorrect.  She doesn't have infinite scaling, but she has constant scaling you can build for.  If you see her fall off in sorties, someone just has her built and played incredibly poorly, that's it.  People are lazy and build for wof, duration and efficiency, basically making her actual play totally inefficient because yes she has a ton of energy, but she isn't doing anything useful with it.

WoF's aug isn't necessary.  With a reasonable amount of power strength, the heat/panic effect is completely reliable and guaranteed and with 145% range, no more, it will affect enemies that come into shooting range aside from snipers.  You /can/ use Firequake for added CC, but, its use comes not in the knockdown, but in being able to get ground finishers.  I have enough power strength, with flash accelerant, to basically have an 8.8x modifier on weapon damage.  Combine that with the 4x damage from ground finishers, and its a lot of easy, constant, very high damage at high levels.  With this much power strength, I do not have energy problems even with -efficiency because things are dying fast enough that I can rely on energy orbs, or preferably a harrow who will be infinitely more useful to me than an EV trin.

Work armor stripping into your weapons/focus/from team and she will wreak havoc on bombards and other heavies level 100-140 faster than most other damage frames.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

 Off-topic, I know, but actually, after advice from an Ember fan on the forums I readjusted my playstyle with her, the frame I passionately hated.

Accelerant is actually her most powerful ability, it's not bad. The rest of her kit sucks, and the secret is really that she's a weapon frame, not a caster. I use Energy Conversion and Growing Power on her, and don't build for WoF like most Ember noobs. Use weapons with Heat damage (I use Arca Plasmor with Corrosive and Heat) and apply Accelerant and watch everything melt for many levels to come. Her other abilities still benefit from this play style but they aren't the focus of it.

Don't get me wrong, she still needs a rework. But revamping the way I play her has actually made her worth a Warframe slot for the first time in all the years I've played this game, both in function beyond her terrible 4th power and in enjoyment of playing her.

Ah, very nice. It is good to see you've gone with it and have found the key.

Though Firequake is a good boss killer. Certain bosses. I use Ember mostly vs grineer and void, but end up using her on infested bosses and the only time FQ is good is to butcher infested bosses. I don't know if it does what it does to grineer or corpus enemies. I'll find out tonight I suppose.

Also, mathmatically I've found the damage gain is higher from growing power over CP, so goodbye CP.

But yeah, I don't mind being in a group with Mesa.  Depending on the terrain, I will still outkill her significantly.  I will outkill most people in most situations, but that is both player and frame taken into account.

But its Gara that has old overheat

[Ravenwulfe]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:30 AM, (PS4)ninpy said:

Hey, that means it's a valid point though right? (I did check beforehand and didnt find anything)

 

If you searched you must have had your eyes closed because there is literally another mesa post on the front page still.

On 12/14/2017 at 4:48 AM, Inquizitor said:

Its far worse than Ember with overheat.

Ember dmg output decreases significantly as enemy levels increases, but mesa does not scale at all, it pretty much f**ks up any lvl, any faction with 0 skill requisition. 

However this pathetic community "LOVES" this pathetic warframe because they cant properly play anything else, and will always say NO to any Mesa-related "NERF" ...more like balance.....its really sad...this is what Warframe has become.

Hey look, a weak scuttlebutt argument trying to dress itself up under the impression that there is skill involved in playing a game that is designed to be a power fantasy from the ground floor. We get it already, you don't like it when someone else, playing the game as intended with their frame does better than you in the damage department cause it shrivels your epeen and your claims to fame. Unfortunately your skill argument falls flat when you also include the various weapons and mods you can put in weapons as well. Never mind that none of the frames are even remotely equal in basic survivability. I don't see how you can chalk up skill. I want to hear what frame you play then.

[Inquizitor]

7 hours ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

If you searched you must have had your eyes closed because there is literally another mesa post on the front page still.

Hey look, a weak scuttlebutt argument trying to dress itself up under the impression that there is skill involved in playing a game that is designed to be a power fantasy from the ground floor. We get it already, you don't like it when someone else, playing the game as intended with their frame does better than you in the damage department cause it shrivels your epeen and your claims to fame. Unfortunately your skill argument falls flat when you also include the various weapons and mods you can put in weapons as well. Never mind that none of the frames are even remotely equal in basic survivability. I don't see how you can chalk up skill. I want to hear what frame you play then.

As i see that your profile pic, i am already disgusted, but aside from that, if you want to know: Everything that has a means of being least selfish, any warframe that can either buff, heal or protect. A team player, not some selfish press4towin Mesa.

[Kaokasalis]

Shatter Shield only reduces damage against ranged damage. Explosions and melee attacks will still rip right through it.

Embers most important abilities, Accelerant and World on Fire isnt limited by line of sight were as Mesa is limited by LoS with Shooting Gallery (weapon damage bonus) and Peacemaker. Ember is more autonomous, Meas is more direct.

Both frames have problems and Embers is that she has a hard time doing higher level content but that hardly makes her similar to Mesa.

[Terrornaut]

11 hours ago, Inquizitor said:

A team player, not some selfish press4towin Mesa.

While I am not entirely disagreeing with you on the rest, I will say that I have been known to stand directly behind a Mesa and shoot things down that she is not looking at while shatter shield is up lol. Same with Zeph and others.

[Ravenwulfe]

On 12/15/2017 at 12:12 PM, Inquizitor said:

As i see that your profile pic, i am already disgusted, but aside from that, if you want to know: Everything that has a means of being least selfish, any warframe that can either buff, heal or protect. A team player, not some selfish press4towin Mesa.

Selfish? I have heard of reaching, and a bunch of malarchy, but you certainly are in the race for top contender of making things up. press4toown, my God it's like you don't even play this game if you think Peacemaker is the end all be all of powers in this game, and shows your utter incompetence as a player if you think that healing is the only thing that matters. And if you think Mesa doesn't buff team mates, wow, you really do not play this game at all. Shooting Gallery gives a damage boost as well as CC nearby enemies and it applies to nearby team mates. Never mind your inanity in believing that making sure team mates don't get killed at all or even hit thanks to peacemaker is some how not support. Never mind that you still get loot, and if you aren't one of those types that tries to be the lone hero and dies all the time cause you can't play without trinity tossing bless at you every 5 seconds, you also get bonus affinity for being in range of any frame that is killing loads of enemies. So your whole "selfish and doesn't support the team" is already dead in the water.

 

I play a variety of frames, Valkyr, Trinity, Harrow, Nidus to name a few. The level of ignorance you are displaying just because you can't get top tier damage (and that's your only fall back with your level of ignorance you just displayed) some how constitutes being selfish. That has to be the most hypocritical and selfish thing to say if all you believe is that pressing 4 is an IWIN button constantly, and shows you really do not play this game. Here's a hint, stop playing on mercury.

Edited December 16, 2017 by ChampionSheWolf

[Djego27]

Le 14.12.2017 à 06:50, (PS4)ninpy a dit :

Which basically leaves me thinking that Mesa is a scaled up version of the old Ember, before she was nerfed, since all the abilities that matter are pretty much the same.

 

While you might desire to trade accelerant for overheat, accelerant actually defines Ember as damage frame while it is indeed niche and even as a full team buff mostly no use to the team by her modding. Unfortunately it is even little of use to the normal Ember player that uses the wrong weapons and mod them wrong. It is true that WoF deals significant less damage then Peacemaker, however you should consider that WoF is just a fairly insignificant amount of damage compared to what you can actually do with the frame assuming you utilize weapons that benefit a lot from the only asymmetric damage buff in the game you might end up surprised of how little, if any, damage you actually did before with the frame.

Lets put that in a bit more practical context to see the differences better:

This is a L100 extra armor sorti survival, done solo with Ember, played with this very old shotgun from the early days of the game. However you need a riven with extra status chance on it to make the gun work on Ember this days(the effect of another 165% base damage is more or less the same as just putting a 90% heat mod in that slot, exactly like I modded and used the gun every day before the nerf), because DE manages to even break fairly good balanced low damage status weapons in the same patch where they made the Heks the best snipers in the game and basically over buffed 2 types of shotguns to high heavens while doing little if anything for the rest.:

How can a frame that people assume would be unsuited for this challenge do that with a low damage shotgun that people consider as pure mastery fodder by modern standards? The answer is simple, with our status system and accelerant! A shotgun modded for 100% status before multi shot will proc with every single pellet, while this is not really useful for dots(since the dot uses the base damage of the pellet) or most status effects(since it is just overkill and does nothing useful) it has it's place against armor where you need a very high amount of corrosive procs and a weapon that does one of the highest procs per second in the game is unsurprisingly fairly good at this. Basically the gun removes any armor, at any level within 4-6 shots. Now you are left with about 50k normal cloned flesh on a bombard at L100 ish. This is on other frames still a considerable amount of damage to deal, even by today's standards, with a shotgun that doesn't do all this much damage. However since we got accelerant we can turn that 2386 heat damage with 200% power strength into over 11.9k, if you add crit and the weakness to heat what cloned flesh has you look at something like 17k pure heat damage done to the target per shot what brings us over 20k total damage every single time we pull the trigger at what point a 50k cloned flesh are a very trivial amount to deal with and you effectively do not even notice the high amount of armor in that mission, given that status weapons like the boar prime scale very linear against any amount of armor and pure HP gains on grenier are actually not that big in the scaling process.

If you now compare that to mesa, shooting gallery only gives 50% extra damage for weapons at 200% power strength what would result in a bit over halve the damage Ember gets with the same gun, given you here scale everything, while on Ember you only scale your most effective damage component, what is heat damage against that cloned flesh.

Future more Peacemaker does not allow you to use your main tool to penetrate this 99% ish damage reduction so you have to life with 1% of your epic damage, while on Ember WoF still adds 21.500(4k direct hit + 14k from the dot x 1.25 with the heat damage bonus against cloned flesh) damage 4 times per second to random targets, even if the effect if fairly negotiable given that this damage is subject to the armor damage mitigation, different to your weapon based damage that is hardly affected by it.

So in practical application you can actually do more damage with Ember at high levels, not because you have more damage on WoF then Peacemaker but because other damage sources scale different on both frames.

Against other factions you can simply use crit scaling, what easily gives you round about 300k dps with most modern weapons. Even fairly old school weapons like my mara detron manage the same 300k, even with all viral and radiation damage being highly resisted by infested(however viral and radiation procs are incredible powerful given that they double your damage scaling for heat as well as with WoF and remove both 90% ability and general damage reduction from targets) it is still one of the best guns in the game against the infested faction on Ember, given that the damage one the weapon is delivered by the heat component in combination with again accelerant.

Ember, different to Mesa did actually change very little over the years, because you could do all of this years ago already with Ember and the difference between a 7s WoF and a endless one for less energy at higher levels is fairly negotiable, given that you do not do your damage with WoF but weapon damage and weapon based status effects.

Accelerant is your most powerful and important ability, it is what makes Ember the very good scaling and flexible damage frame it is. Without that it would be exactly in the bad spot that 99% of the player base thinks she is at high levels, because again they do not use accelerant and heat based weapon damage scaling. Back in the days it was even more ironic given that people actually really did struggle with her Boltor primes to even reach 1h in groups without CP while you with your inferior weapon and frame in her opinion never faced this issues at all.

Le 16.12.2017 à 00:47, Hieracon a dit :

Shatter Shield only reduces damage against ranged damage. Explosions and melee attacks will still rip right through it.

Embers most important abilities, Accelerant and World on Fire isnt limited by line of sight were as Mesa is limited by LoS with Shooting Gallery (weapon damage bonus) and Peacemaker. Ember is more autonomous, Meas is more direct.

Both frames have problems and Embers is that she has a hard time doing higher level content but that hardly makes her similar to Mesa.

This is actually not the case if you go beyond levels where WoF does carry you where Ember is one of the more interesting weapon based damage frames in the game.

I am also not sure how Ember should have a hard time in high level content, given that you could play solo at L100 with the frame long before DE decided to add all the power creep with modern weapons and frames.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Terrornaut]

@Djego27 Understands completely. So rare and refreshing.

Of course nobody will actually read this because it involves effort and some thinking, so the meta remains as it always does.

I will save this post to refer people to (Diego's) so I can avoid explaining all of this daily.  Some day I swear I'll make an Ember video, and probably request footage from other people knowledgeable with Ember.

[Inquizitor]

On 12/16/2017 at 10:45 PM, ChampionSheWolf said:

Shooting Gallery gives a damage boost as well as CC nearby enemies and it applies to nearby team mates. 

As if i didnt know that, who CARES?

A 25% dmg increase for like what? Like 20 seconds per ONE player IN range, with some duration mods, or a 40% dmg with some cheap power strength increase? Is THIS what you call "BUFF"?

Then go take a look at some warframes like Rhino, which gives to ALL in the area a 2x or even 3x stronger, longer-lasting buff. (unfortunately, most Rhino users are also selfish, putting everything into iron skin builds, and not even using the roar)...

Despite the fact, that i am correct in everything, i wont get any acceptance, since vast majority of warframe players are like you. Softcore immortal killing machines playing warframe on easiest difficulty there is, and those will always upvote your comments no matter what the truth is. Im done.