Reworking all the damage types is dangerous(rant)

[(PSN)drollive96]

Recenly ive heard that the damage types or status effects may be changed, this has the potential to destroy a fundamental part of the gamplay which could be disastrous. Players might have to rework EVERY weapon they have seeing as though the damage types and mods will do different things. Yet another example of fixing things that aren't broken, my fear is that such a dramatic change could anger players and make them leave. Imagine this, you have a weapon that you've put 6+ Formas into and all of a sudden that weapon becomes useless. I love this game to death and I don't want it to fail . My hope is that they just buff the status effects that no one uses and do only slightly alter the good ones, slash, corrosive, and viral are fine and should probably only be altered slightly if at all. Magnetic, imact, heat, and electric are currently never used, if anything is changed i think those 4 are the only ones that need work. 

[Mvtty]

Where did you heard that ?

[NekroArts]

Scroll down to "Impact, Puncture, Slash (IPS)"

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-101

[(PSN)CannaWhoopazz13]

I think they're mostly just looking at bringing other status effects up to par with Slash/Bleed status.  In ultra-high level gameplay, the Bleed status effect is by far the strongest, because it bypasses armor and shields.  Because of this, out of the three physical damage types, slash is preferred.  

 

From my understanding, they're just looking at bringing impact and puncture up to par with slash.

[Kurokoz]

It's not ALL, just Impact, Puncture and Slash. Its mostly about making them stack.

[Mofodo]

While it is true that IPS, and how we deal damage in general, is crucially important to the game, I don't think the proposed changes would require you to tear apart your weapon builds. Unless the slash "nerfs" go through by accident (which I say by accident because I don't think they realize) then we should only get stronger across the board (I am referring to slash procs dealing damage based on how much slash you have rather than dealing a percentage of your total damage, ruining the use of Hunter Munitions on many weapons). 

I agree we should monitor these changes closely and give our input as we see fit. So far I don't think we've gotten enough information about the rework to know how much will change. I can say that so far, slash still seems like it will still be by far the best, unless more buffs are applied to impact and puncture. But I would have to actually test it to confirm.

[--F--NerevarCM]

Then you heard wrong.

They will rework only IPS damage and will change how Status scales AFTER 100%.

Next time you rant about something you don't know, learn about it first.

[(PSN)CannaWhoopazz13]

Also, they specifically said how they're BUFFING impact and puncture to bring them up to Slash, not nerfing slash to be as useless as puncture/impact.

[Mofodo]

Just now, (PS4)CannaWhoopazz13 said:

Also, they specifically said how they're BUFFING impact and puncture to bring them up to Slash, not nerfing slash to be as useless as puncture/impact.

While they didn't say they intended to nerf slash, they might do it accidentally. Currently a slash proc deals 35% of your base damage over the duration, which means even if you have no slash damage, you still do strong slash procs. They proposed making the damage scale off of how much slash damage your weapon has, which could make slash procs significantly weaker. Not sure if this is what this post is referring to or not though.

[ThrakazogZ]

I know nothing official, but they've talked about it a few times in the past few dev streams.

Since there's no way to make Impact ragdolling and Puncture dmg reduction as good as slash dmg output, it sounded like they do plan on nerfing it a bit.

Capping the slash procs was the one thing mentioned. Not sure what else they might do.

[(PSN)CannaWhoopazz13]

1 minute ago, Mofodo said:

While they didn't say they intended to nerf slash, they might do it accidentally. Currently a slash proc deals 35% of your base damage over the duration, which means even if you have no slash damage, you still do strong slash procs. They proposed making the damage scale off of how much slash damage your weapon has, which could make slash procs significantly weaker. Not sure if this is what this post is referring to or not though.

well, you can't proc slash without doing slash damage (outside of specific weapons)...  Also, which status effect procs depends on the percentages of each damage type you're dealing.  Weapon deals 80% corrosive, 10% impact, 5% puncture and slash means the vast majority of status procs will be corrosive.

[Mofodo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CannaWhoopazz13 said:

well, you can't proc slash without doing slash damage (outside of specific weapons)...  Also, which status effect procs depends on the percentages of each damage type you're dealing.  Weapon deals 80% corrosive, 10% impact, 5% puncture and slash means the vast majority of status procs will be corrosive.

Yes, currently your chance to apply a status effect is based on what percentage of your damage type is that status. However, they suggested in Devstream #101 making not only the chance to apply the status being based on how this percentage, but also the damage (which almost strictly applies to slash at the moment). This means that if you're using a weapon that's 90% puncture, 5% slash and 5% impact, not only will slash procs be rare, they will also be significantly weaker than they are currently. I predict with the current proposed changes slash will still be the best, meaning weapon choice will be more polarized since you need to use a slash focused weapon.

While it is true that only a few specific weapons can do slash damage without doing slash damage, every weapon that can apply a critical hit can now apply slash damage through the use of the set mod Hunter Munitions (this gives a 30% chance to apply a slash proc on critical hit). This makes any weapon that can get critical hits reliably compete with some of the already popular weapons. Assuming their proposed changes go through, this mod would only be useful on weapons that already have a lot of slash damage and have high crit chance. 

To clarify, even if you have 0% slash damage and get a proc via Hunter Munitions, since slash procs deal damage based on your total damage, they are still very strong. In the future, they would deal damage based on your slash damage, which many of the weapons that use this mod have very little or none of.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

lol,you guys crack me up, they could institute changes by merely modifying existing impact and puncture mods, add  few mods which buff IP damage, and that would require no fundamental change to anyone's build at all, instead it merely opens up legitmate impact and puncture based builds. And they would merely have to alter some of the IP based weapons to make their DPS on par with slash weapons. So you could still keep your slash build......

[Mofodo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

lol,you guys crack me up, they could institute changes by merely modifying existing impact and puncture mods, add  few mods which buff IP damage, and that would require no fundamental change to anyone's build at all, instead it merely opens up legitmate impact and puncture based builds. And they would merely have to alter some of the IP based weapons to make their DPS on par with slash weapons. So you could still keep your slash build......

Assuming they proposed just buffing impact and puncture, nobody would be worried. Worst case scenario they're still not strong and nobody uses them. But in Devstream #101 the changes they proposed sounded like nerfs to slash, even if they didn't realize it - hence why people are concerned.

[motorfirebox]

They're trying to fix things that are broken, though. Like, really, who uses magnetic damage? (I'm sure some people do, and I'm sure those people would be more effective with a more useful damage type.)

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

Fair enough, But it's funny how every has this "sky is falling" attitude. People get married to their weapons sometimes....

[Tokens210]

in the devstream they never said atleast directly that they were nerfing anything, they said currently the entire damage system is broken

slash damage is the only one which properly scales, thats why everyone targets slash, slash is king

the new frame khora coming out has the ability to alter her abilities to cause either impact, puncture or slash damage, they said they quickly realized in internal testing that absolutely noone used anything but slash since its the only one that scales at all

they directly said they're bringing impact and puncture up to the same level as slash

impact will get stagger, bigger stagger, ragdoll

puncture will get enemy has reduced damage output that can stack till something like 90% reduced damage out (i think 90 was the max, my number may be off)

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tokens210

[Mofodo]

@Tokens210

To quote Scott from Devstream #101, "The percentage mix of your IPS is how much of the damage is fed into the proc." This ends up being a buff to already incredibly powerful slash-focused weapons and a nerf to the (now many) weapons that make use of slash procs without being entirely slash-focused. Which, in my eyes, would polarize the weapon choice in the game even more.

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, (PS4)drollive96 said:

Yet another example of fixing things that aren't broken

Bud, I gotta disagree with you here, the damage system is the root problem with almost everything "wrong" with Warframe.

 

Honestly, I will be happy if I have to change my build of every weapon, the Meta (especially for ranged weapons) has been stale and broken for years now.

 

(And I actually am 100% okay with slash being less effective it is a trade for a more balanced status system, but I think I will be hung for that here.)

 

Edit: Also, a lot of people saying it is only IPS changes, but I am pretty sure they have said that other statuses are getting touches in stream 101 and 103. .

Edited December 16, 2017 by DrBorris

[Tokens210]

43 minutes ago, Mofodo said:

"The percentage mix of your IPS is how much of the damage is fed into the proc."

the percentage mix of ips is refered to usually as a weapons "base" damage which isnt explained well in game

but status effects damage was always based around this and mod cards added to weapons only effect this, so it would make sense that they would tie the proc chance/damage to it as well, the problem again is that neither impact or puncture scaled properly while slash did which caused everyone to ignore both other types and only mod for slash and on a weapon like the tigris having that much slash damage with the new system would break the damage again, so even if they added a cap it wouldnt be a nerf really cause as it stands slash is broken compared to the other 2 types, its able to do insane amounts of damage and cause bleeding which is damage over time, which would be on top of any elemental effects you had

currently my tigris without a slash mod does 6k slash damage (only 800 of impact and puncture lol), 15k blast damage and 10k corrosive damage with a 100% status chance, if i used it on a resonance sonar banshee build after a few kills it would also gain almost a 100% crit chance as well as going from a 2x to a 12x multiplier on that crit damage(never tried this so im not personally sure if banshee multi would add to the 2x or replace it but either way), currently outside of sortie heavy or special eximus units or a sortie assassinate or a teralyst nothing can hold a candle to that much damage out, and even many of the units i mentioned will be gone after 4 shots especially since you can fire both rounds of it at once causing double the damage out the gate

 

altho personally i think the tigris is supposed to be one powerful gun since its a shotgun that needs alot of reloading if you dont have a someone that can buff you for faster or no reloading, the fact you can also seem to snipe with it with limited dropoff on damage seems broke tho lol

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tokens210

[Mofodo]

8 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

currently my tigris without a slash mod does 6k slash damage, 15k blast damage and 10k corrosive damage with a 100% status chance, if i used it on a resonance sonar banshee build after a few kills it would also gain almost a 100% crit chance as well as going from a 2x to a 12x multiplier on that crit damage, currently outside of sortie heavy or special eximus units or a sortie assassinate or a teralyst nothing can hold a candle to that much damage out, and even many of the units i mentioned will be gone after 4 shots especially since you can fire both rounds of it at once causing double the damage out the gate

Yes, weapons that are heavily slash focused like the one you mentioned, the Tigris (which is about 80% slash damage at base) are very strong and would only get stronger. Currently a slash proc deals 35% of your base damage over time when you inflict it over 6 seconds. They proposed making this damage only scale off of the damage of the proc you inflicted. Which in the case of Tigris, a bleed proc would do 80% of your base damage over 6 seconds - that's insane! However, any weapons that are not heavily weighted into slash damage would lose a lot of damage. I keep bringing up Hunter Munitions, because its such a shining example of this concept. The Lenz for instance, has no slash damage. But, with Hunter Munitions can inflict slash procs very frequently, making it an incredibly lethal weapon. If these procs scaled off of the weapon's slash damage rather than the weapon's base damage, as they suggested, the mod would effectively do nothing.

[Tokens210]

even with non slash based weapons tho, if you have a weapon, shouldnt say weapon as i believe it wont do it for melee but if you have a gun thats based on impact/puncture and slash is the lowest value alot of times simply adding a multishot mod cards brings the slash to be equal or above the other stats basically making a none slash based weapon a slash based weapon, its cause the scaling, the slash damage properly scales to the multishot while the other dont

(been trying to remember which weapon i first noticed this on but for the life of me can't, think most of my primary weapons now are slash based lol)

 

i currently dont have a lenz so im unaware of its base damage stat but as far as ive thought about it in my head since we dont yet have 100% info would be that adding that mod card to add slash to would be unaffected by the changes, but its impact and puncture stats would increase or whichever damage type its based on which would increase the chance/dam of procs as it increases the base damage so youd still be able to add slash to it still even if that slash did slightly less damage then before, unless im totally confused on their changes lol but its DE so i could easily be confused on their changes lol

punture will cause up to a 90% damage reduction from enemies, not sure if its timed (might be off on the 90%)

impact will cause stumble, stagger, then ragdoll which if you saw yesterdays dev stream is totally broken lol looks like DE took all the force from sonicor and weapons alike and put it into impacts proc as de rebecca was sending enemies into space repeatedly lol

 

i think i personally would be more concerned with the elemental damage then the base damage, if elemental were to for instance be changed to use the weapons default type like i, p, or s instead of overall base damage it would shred elemental effectiveness by alot, i dont see them really doing this but if they raise the impact and puncture damage to match slash then our base damage is about to get a very nice Bump so all elemental damage would as well with current system rules anyway so i suppose well see how they balance it

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tokens210

[Danjal777]

This is how I understand it:

Slash will stay the same, but Scott hinted at limiting the number of slash stacks to five on an enemy.

Impact will compound with each additional proc (stagger>heavy stagger>ragdoll)

Puncture will cause increased damage debuff on enemies with each additional proc.

 

Procs will happen based on damage ratio.

 

If it destroys your builds, then make new ones.  

[Mofodo]

Currently: If you have no slash damage and inflict a slash proc, you will still do 35% of your base damage over 6 seconds.

Making the bleed scale off of your actual slash damage would kill many weapons' functionality with Hunter Munitions. Amprex is 100% electricity damage and with this mod can still do damage via slash procs. 

Additionally, weapons that are not slash focused would lose damage. So lets take the Vaykor Hek for example. This weapon has 525.0 damage. 65% puncture. 20% slash. 15% impact. 

If you inflict a slash proc, which is fairly common considering its a shotgun with 25% status, you would do 35% of 525.0 damage over 6 seconds (183.75). If I'm understanding these changes correctly, since your weapon is only 20% slash, your slash proc would only do 20% of 525.0 damage over 6 seconds (105.0). Hence making this change a nerf to the damage of any status weapon that is not more than 35% slash focused (Since even after the changes impact and puncture would not increase your damage output).

On the contrary a weapon like the Tigris Prime which is 80% slash would have slash procs that deal significantly more damage. I fear that with these changes, for damage alone, slash weapons would become more dominant. If the supposed changes to impact and puncture were less utility and more damage, perhaps the playing field would level out.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Mofodo
typo

[Dragazer]

DE just needs to not touch slash at all and just focus on the other procs. It is literally the only thing they managed to do right with this current dmg system, and one of the few ways players can actually combat the ridiculous armor scaling that they are so adamant to keep. 

 

Why can't slash just be left as is, and the other procs get a serious buff? (lets be honest with ourselves here the current proposed changes to impact and puncture are still going to be worthless garbage).

 

We all know the only reason slash is king is because of how asinine the armor scaling is in this game. So why isn't that being addressed as well?

 

What they proposed to us just shows how out of touch DE is with the game and how the players really play.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Dragazer