[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Really don't want Impact as CC/Ragdoll. Really don't want procs based solely on damage type.

 

People use Slash because it's effective and non intrusive.

 

Really worried this is just more Gara tier nerfs under the disguise of balance.

[Fulmir]

If I'm understanding this correctly and Slash isn't changing how it functions then this isn't going to change much in the calculus of proc effectiveness. Weapons that were previously effective and dealt Impact or Puncture will continue to be used and nothing new is going to see a renaissance because it deals Puncture or Impact and has decent status chance.

Slash is going to continue to deal fairly ridiculous damage that ignores armor and continue to be the dominant proc choice.

[Finedaible]

27 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

What about weapons that have little or no slash but proc bleed effects? For Example, Amprex (electric base only) using Hunter Munitions? Will these proc bleed effects with dmg ticks of 0? How will this affect abilities such as Ash's Blade Storm? What about stances which proc bleed effects regardless of damage type?

[Elenortirie]

28 minutes ago, BenThePoofle said:

Please rethink punture, lowering the damage they do by 75% is not as good as killing them which reduces their damage by 100%. We all want punture to Reduce armor because it is soposed to specialize against armor when it doesn’t in reality.

well there is a difference thought that puncture will not introduce issue of not being able to place a follow up shot on the enemy....

[Latiac]

The only issue I can see here is having Impact ragdolling enemies ALL over the place and making it a nightmare much like Zephyr's Tornado...

[Trichouette]

People here should understand two things :

1. Hunter ammo was never meant to make every crit weapon insanely OP by making them proc slash. It was meant to proc slash in order to make your companion focus a specific target. (well that's my theory, it seems logical to me)
2. The nerf to slash proc isn't really a nerf, it's a buff to slash weapon and a nerf to weapons that players turned into slash proccer like akstilleto. Slash based weapons will be better at proccing slash (thanks to maim/buzzkill etc...) while nonslash based weapons will stop destroying everything.

[Gunslinger]

So, rag-dolling an enemy with a sniper is a good thing? I have my doubts! 

[Dragazer]

Just now, Trichouette said:

People here should understand two things :

1. Hunter ammo was never meant to make every crit weapon insanely OP by making them proc slash. It was meant to proc slash in order to make your companion focus a specific target. (well that's my theory, it seems logical to me)
2. The nerf to slash proc isn't really a nerf, it's a buff to slash weapon and a nerf to weapons that players turned into slash proccer like akstilleto. Slash based weapons will be better at proccing slash (thanks to maim/buzzkill etc...) while nonslash based weapons will stop destroying everything.

So the meta weapons are even more meta now? Great. Atleast hunters gave a chance for other weapons to shine

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

People here should understand two things :

1. Hunter ammo was never meant to make every crit weapon insanely OP by making them proc slash. It was meant to proc slash in order to make your companion focus a specific target. (well that's my theory, it seems logical to me)
2. The nerf to slash proc isn't really a nerf, it's a buff to slash weapon and a nerf to weapons that players turned into slash proccer like akstilleto. Slash based weapons will be better at proccing slash (thanks to maim/buzzkill etc...) while nonslash based weapons will stop destroying everything.

Understanding and not speaking out against bad decisions helps no one. 

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 3 minutes, Trichouette a dit :

People here should understand two things :

1. Hunter ammo was never meant to make every crit weapon insanely OP by making them proc slash. It was meant to proc slash in order to make your companion focus a specific target. (well that's my theory, it seems logical to me)
2. The nerf to slash proc isn't really a nerf, it's a buff to slash weapon and a nerf to weapons that players turned into slash proccer like akstilleto. Slash based weapons will be better at proccing slash (thanks to maim/buzzkill etc...) while nonslash based weapons will stop destroying everything.

Ok, so what this "rework" achieves is limiting even more the number of viable/good options. 

Doubt that was what they were going for. 

[Liverslices]

What about Hunter Munitions? Up until now pure element weapons could use Hunter Munitions. My Synapse or Lenz could get slash procs based on their total damage. With these changes it sounds like the slash procs would be gone because they dont deal IPS damage. Is this true?

What about slash damage mods? Will they now work on slash procs? Currently, mods like Jagged Edge or Fanged Fuselage dont increase slash procs. Will this change?

[Trichouette]

il y a 3 minutes, Dragazer a dit :

So the meta weapons are even more meta now? Great. Atleast hunters gave a chance for other weapons to shine

That's not true. Akstilleto p for example won't be "slash proccing meta" anymore.

il y a 1 minute, (PS4)Vagnar a dit :

Understanding and not speaking out against bad decisions helps no one. 

I am actually speaking against bad decision, however my post is currently hidden.

il y a 2 minutes, SSI_Seraph a dit :

Ok, so what this "rework" achieves is limiting even more the number of viable/good options. 

Doubt that was what they were going for. 

I would rather say "limit players from using slash on every weapon available because slash is too good".

[LightningHawk]

DE, I urge you to think this over and consider other weapon types before making this change.

With this change "before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted." many, many weapons now suffer. Think about melees that use the forced slash procs from their stances to deal with armour. Jat Kusar is a prime example. It lacked status, and so the only way it was able to deal with armour is the slash procs from Defiled Snapdragon. But, as it has no base slash, this change will make those slash procs deal 0 damage.

Think about rapiers, which are ~85% puncture. Their whole thing is the many slash procs in Vulpine Mask. Said slash procs will now deal pitiful damage.

Probably the best example I can think of is the Caustacyst. The Caustacyst has a mechanic where a charge attack on an enemy at point blank will inflict a slash proc. But, with this change, and due to the Caustacyst having no base slash, this proc will now also deal 0 damage.

This isn't just restricted to melees that relied on their stance's slash procs, either. Think of weapons like the Grinlok. The Grinlok was able to deal slash procs without Munitions thanks to it's good status and near 50/50 spread between impact and slash. With this change, it's slash procs will now deal half the damage they did originally. The Daikyu will also suffer from this change.

Overall, it seems this change was designed to nerf Hunter Munitions indirectly (understandable). But I urge you to think it over. This change will not simply nerf Munitions, it will nerf all slash procs across the board with every weapon type. Even weapons that are majority slash will do less proc damage than they did before.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Puncture needs a more offense based buff, why use it over impact if the CC from impact is effectively 100% damage reduction or slash procs just kill them? Puncture procs should have a portion of the damage dealt just bypass armor, where even does damage reduction make sense for 'piercing' when it should pierce defenses?

[SSI_Seraph]

à l’instant, Liverslices a dit :

What about Hunter Munitions?

Up until now pure element weapons could use Hunter Munitions. My Synapse or Lenz could get slash procs based on their total damage. With these changes it sounds like the slash procs would be gone because they dont deal IPS damage. Is this true?

it's even worse than that, Even stances have guarenteed procs that will now become useless in some cases if they work the same way as normal procs after this change. At least you can take off H. M for another mod, you can't do that with stance combos. 

[Ssschah]

24 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them

I really hope that you reconsider that ragdoll and maybe instead it could apply a stun for several seconds whose time would stack with new procs.
Please leave ragdoll to Blast what it was doing up till now before it was destroyed with Update 22.6.0...

For that ragdoll on Impact vs Blast, tell me what would rather launch me several meters in to the air:
a blast from an explosion    or    some small bullet....  

Besides if I didn't want to see enemies fly around I could simply take out the mods that were making up the Blast damage  but after the rework I will be forced to ditch plenty of weapons with Impact as it's main damage if I don't want to run after enemies that were sent flying by them....

_{sorry for my bad english...}

[iFlipWiGs]

35 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Yep, I hope DE realizes that if they want IPS to be on about the same level, slash needs a pretty big nerf.

No the other 2 just need massive buffs or changes to how they work. Nerfing will just annoy the player base.

[Shade-Nightclaw]

Will this affect the hunter munitions mod being able to make non slash weapons do slash damage on crit damage? because It would completely ruin that mod for me if you took away what made it special , especially after it just coming out please dont ruin this epic mod .

[LSG501]

51 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

So a nerf to slash then...yes puncture and impact needed some work but you didn't need to change the way the damage was being calculated and ultimately nerf the only decent one, like many others I still see no real reason to use puncture/impact over slash if I'm going for all out damage... especially those with small physical damage amounts and in essence this is reducing the viable 'end game' (and that's not level 40) weapons again.   Honestly, please keep the damage calculations the same as they are now, we don't need more nerfs in the game. 

Plus I do love these 'balance passes' that you do DE, it's so great to see all our stuff get 'nerfed' while you do nothing to the 'broken' enemy scaling that we're trying to kill.  How about working on the enemies BEFORE doing changes to our stuff....it would make these balance passes so much easier...

These ideas might seem great on paper but a lot of them don't work in the game due to the simple fact scaling for higher level enemies is often ignored (just look at gara rework for example, her 4 is useless as a defence at high level for this exact reason, ember has the same lack of scaling issue, as do others..)

 

EDIT: and I'm with several others in the view that impact should not be ragdoll, it should be stun with the more damage done the longer they're stunned for, stacking with more hits.  Ragdoll should be left to blast damage. 

Puncture should puncture stuff, so like someone else said shouldn't it have an element of punch through..

[Aqua]

slash is still going to be better because its used to help kill things. impact is going to be even more annoying to kill things with because its harder to hit headshots when the enemy is flying all over. puncture isn't going to be useful because it won't scale & also doesn't help you kill things. %damage reduction against high level enemies is still going to result in getting hit with a fuckton of damage.

 

like, the game revolves around you killing things. until impact and puncture helps you kill things they still won't be the preferred weapon type. these changes aren't good. 

[Urlan]

34 minutes ago, chrisx1125 said:

In the current system, mods with +slash damage do not increase the bleed proc damage.
Mods with +damage, +crit, and even +channeling will increase it - but not +slash.
Will this be changed in the new system?

I too would like to know about this particular aspect.

[iFlipWiGs]

34 minutes ago, Drathe said:

Lol, no. Slash is the strongest because it bypasses armour.

 

Imagine that...something that isn't affected by the massive scaling damage reduction. In other words, the only way other than REMOVING THAT DAMAGE REDUCTION, to actually kill high level enemies in a reasonable amount of time.

Puncture reduces enemy damage...cool, Slash kills enemies, and dead enemies deal 0 damage.

Impact staggers or ragdolls enemies. Which means you won't be able to hit headshots as easily, or may miss entirely if they ragdoll too violently. So Impact procs can literally make you take longer to kill an enemy.

In other words, Impact is now even more useless, Puncture is still just as useless, and Slash is getting nerfed.

Good to see that Damage 2.5 has managed to make everything worse.

A wise man would think that armor scaling is the problem 

[Jabett]

3 minutes ago, LightningHawk said:

DE, I urge you to think this over and consider other weapon types before making this change.

With this change "before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted." many, many weapons now suffer. Think about melees that use the forced slash procs from their stances to deal with armour. Jat Kusar is a prime example. It lacked status, and so the only way it was able to deal with armour is the slash procs from Defiled Snapdragon. But, as it has no base slash, this change will make those slash procs deal 0 damage.

Think about rapiers, which are ~85% puncture. Their whole thing is the many slash procs in Vulpine Mask. Said slash procs will now deal pitiful damage.

Probably the best example I can think of is the Caustacyst. The Caustacyst has a mechanic where a charge attack on an enemy at point blank will inflict a slash proc. But, with this change, and due to the Caustacyst having no base slash, this proc will now also deal 0 damage.

This isn't just restricted to melees that relied on their stance's slash procs, either. Think of weapons like the Grinlok. The Grinlok was able to deal slash procs without Munitions thanks to it's good status and near 50/50 spread between impact and slash. With this change, it's slash procs will now deal half the damage they did originally. The Daikyu will also suffer from this change.

Overall, it seems this change was designed to nerf Hunter Munitions indirectly (understandable). But I urge you to think it over. This change will not simply nerf Munitions, it will nerf all slash procs across the board with every weapon type. Even weapons that are majority slash will do less proc damage than they did before.

Grinlok will be ok as slash used deal 35% base damage when it procced

[DecadeX]

Okay, you have slash procs built into melee weapon stances that for some pure elemental weapons are the only stance option. So slash desperately needs to not change like at all. Now you've said slash won't change, but also said it will be based on only a weapon's slash damage. If the second half of that is true and not the first, that is a nerf to quite a few weapons such as Jat Kusar, for example, which greatly enjoys Condition Overload boosted slash procs despite being a pure elemental damage weapon. All rapiers (even Zaw rapiers) also likewise enjoy the benefits of slash procs despite both having most of their damage in puncture via their stance Vulpine Mask. I expect this to be a hard nerf to Rapiers and Mios (the only blade and whip that deals IPS damage), but what happens when you get a slash proc with a weapon that has no slash damage? If it deals no damage, you just implemented a major nerf. Otherwise I like the new impact procs. Puncture still seems ultra weak though since there isn't a way to reliably apply them to a large group of enemies. Like don't get me wrong 75% outgoing damage reduction would be fantastic, but if impact ragdolls enemies and slash kills enemies than that means puncture is 25% DR short of the other two physical damage types. That would be fine if I could press a button and just have everything in a wide area suddenly be doing 25% of it's normal damage but I can't presently spread puncture like that. The other concern is that this sounds like you're going to implement it with no further feedback because of the Holidays, but that makes me have to ask if you even should be doing this now.

[Emulad0or]

50 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.

How is this anything but a nerf to Slash? Considering a standard build for, lets say, Sigma&Octantis (a weapon with over 60% slash in the IPS), the slash proc damage would fall to a little bit under 30%. Are we to expect only weapons with huge slash in the IPS (like Atterax with 90%) using Buzz Kill and Jagged edge instead of elemental mods to deal almost the same damage as they deal today?