[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[.Vesk.]

Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control. Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator? Immobilize priority targets by unloading your Akstillettos, giving you more time to address the threat. Overwhelmed by an army of MOAs? Level entire rooms with something like a Strun!

No no NO. I didn't avoid stupid blast as a combination to have a built-in one afterall.

Talking about dominating impact weapons such as Gorgon. And especially additional impact from a riven on top of it!

[Derek_Icelord]

50 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

<snip>

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

So... slash is NOT going to work the same as it always did and you are straight nerfing it. Everything using Hunter Muntions will ditch it (so your new mod will be tossed in the trash heap along with your new warframe, GG). At least you guys are consistent.

 

The ragdoll for Impact may be somewhat useful (though I'd be shocked if it was ever more than niche use), but the damage reduction from Puncture will still be worthless, no matter how high it scales. A permanent 100% damage decrease from the enemy being dead will always trump a temporary damage debuff.

[-Hammers]

Lets Diversify the meta by making making people use even more specific slash weapons now!....wait,,,

 

So Melee weapons dependent on stance slash procs like Jat Kusar just flat die now.

Hunter munitions is like dead on 'almost' every weapon that tried using it.

and impact and puncture are still super 'meh' compared to slash WHICH IGNORES ARMOR.

My Akstilettos taking a long time to kill X enemy? so ill just stagger it into oblivion while emptying all of my clips to kill 1/infinite enemies that are ALSO trying to kill me, YES I SEE IT!

Damage reduction!? Sweet! now when I do endurance runs ill still get gobsmacked because the damage will still ramp so high it wont matter!

Guess ill start forma'ing my Galatine, because I don't want to spin to w- oh yeah..cleaving whirlwind..

 

I'm actually afraid to see the elemental rework,

[Wiz3rd]

So basically what you're trying to tell me is that both impact and puncture are still useless?
And you're also nerfing slash procs' damage while you're at it?
Great news.
Just what we needed!

[Geraaltix]

Please remember the Piercing Roar augment in your changes. If a puncture proc is to reduce enemy damage output, Piercing Roar has no damage output to scale its puncture procs from.

[DecadeX]

2 minutes ago, Jabett said:

Grinlok will be ok as slash used deal 35% base damage when it procced

Okay, slash currently uses 35% of damage, if it then uses 35% of slash damage only then the Grinlock's slash procs suddenly only scale off it's 48 base slash damage instead of all 120 base damage. That is not okay.

[Kaminarion]

Will need -Impact rivens now :3

[Lion]

Quote

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

PLEASE do not do this. This is an indirect nerf to Slash damage as a whole, and it will kill Hunter Munitions (which JUST made crit weapons much more viable)

 

Please reconsider this, it's not a good change and it will hurt balance.

[McBalth]

So, if you read the whole post inrelation to slash, it's getting a huge nerf in that it will calculate the damage only from the slash damage inflicted instead of from the entire base damage of the weapon. The recent super mod set that was based around inflicting slash damage will go from being an amazing across the board set to barely niche, as it's damage on 90% of weapons will be -0-. Plus, i'm not looking forward to these procs being constantly applied to frames by enemies as well, but it makes for a more level field, and makes the great carpet bagger have a use, maybe. 

For DE peeps, when will environmental effects that reduce visibility for players apply to enemies as well? Examples would include the fog effects, grass and ground clutter on PoE.

[Ashendal]

This whole change doesn't fix the root cause of WHY people are choosing certain damage types to run on their weapons. If anything this change just further increases that divide and now lowers the total pool of "viable" weapons for any content above level 50 which includes sorties. If the weapon doesn't have a majority in Slash the weapon is not going to be taken. If you thought people overused the Tigris Prime and Galatine Prime before, be prepared to see nothing more than that.

Scott, you need to understand that the armor scaling formula is the issue here. Shield's are not even close to scaling in any meaningful way when it comes to damage mitigation because it's the same formula for Player and NPC and you can literally run anything, including your anti-armor setup, with no downsides because of that. If anything the anti-armor setup would be even better against Corpus and Infested because Slash+Viral will melt them just as fast, if not faster, than an armored target like a Grineer. You're ignoring the main issue with these changes, armor scaling, and just making tweaks that will do absolutely nothing to increase build diversity and instead further limit player choice if you do anything that isn't the star chart, and even on the start chart for planet like Sedna.

You need to start over. Scrap these changes and address the problem that they don't. Look at armor scaling and shield resistances. Until those two are actually brought into some semblance of decent, armor being brought down from infinite scaling leading to millions upon millions of effective health and shields being a joke, any tweaks you make to the damage types is meaningless. If you make tweaks to the armor and shield scaling after this you're just going to have to then do double work and go back and rebalance procs because things will be out of wack again. Don't do double work, do work ONCE and do it RIGHT. Scrap these changes and let Kora be a little wonky with her stat choice with everyone going slash until after the new year when you have time to actually do the work and redo the armor scaling formula. Stop ignoring the problem and actually fix it please.

[DecadeX]

2 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Oberon's 1 fairly reliably and consistently applies puncture procs. Tenora also fairly reliably applies puncture. Rapiers apply puncture. PRETTY sure Paris Prime applies puncture pretty reliably.

"To large groups of enemies" Oberon's smite doesn't create anywhere near enough orbs for that. Everything else you mentioned isn't an AoE.

[DustyFlash]

Please change the Puncture proc to something usefull, a single enemy getting its damage reduced by 25% is very minimalisic and insignificant, if the enemy will constantly get staggered, they can't attack.

Make it something that actually makes sense, like Armor Penetration or Shield Penetration etc. (Ignores a % of the shield or damage reduction and deals direct damage to the health pool)

As for Impact, do you know what else an impact does to a person? It slows them, a lot.

[Derek_Icelord]

Why are you changing slash anyway? It's great as it is now. What makes it powerful is the bleed dealing finisher damage and thus ignoring armor (which gets stupid at high levels).

[AttackBacon]

I'm very concerned about the Slash changes as they relate to Hunter Munitions. Right now we have several strong builds that are only possible due to Hunter Munitions that the changes, as written (although obviously I don't know how they will be implemented under-the-hood), will completely invalidate. Weapons such as the Amprex, Lenz, and Arca Plasmor gain huge benefits from Hunter Munitions but have no base Slash damage. Will this mod now be useless on them? That would be unfortunate, as while they are very powerful weapons that don't strictly need the help, it was a good way to add anti-armor scaling to the weapons which they did not otherwise have. 

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 14 minutes, Trichouette a dit :

That's not true. Akstilleto p for example won't be "slash proccing meta" anymore.

I am actually speaking against bad decision, however my post is currently hidden.

I would rather say "limit players from using slash on every weapon available because slash is too good".

Only problem is, puncture is still useless even if they give ennemies a 99% Damage output reduction after the proc, impact is a nuisance at best because I wanna kill, not play with my enemies by launching them 10m away and high slash weapons are the only things that are better than/come close to old slash with the second best being way worse than before this "rework". 

And no slash isn't "too good" the other two are absolute trash especially after this rework for impact and puncture is the still the same because a damage output reduction is useless on something that's already dead or that can oneshot you with even 1% of its damage. 

So yes Slash is still the only attractive option and the weapon choice is even more limited with the changes they made to it. 

[Enfo]

Can we not get changes like this that are more nrefs than buffs? You're not making Impact or Puncture more desirable with this, just Slash worse...

Slash needs no changes

Buff things, don't nerf others to bring them down to their level 

[raz143]

I think these changes will help, but I don't know if impact and puncture will be close to as powerful as slash even after this update. Impact and puncture are both going to be CC/defensive damage types whereas slash is an offensive damage type. In my experience playing the game, people have focused on using the weapons that can kill enemies the fastest and leave CC to warframes. Also, currently blast procs will be more effective than impact at stunning enemies and both will be able to effectively nullify damage taken better than even a 75% puncture proc. Maybe in testing my opinion will be changed, but on paper slash will still dwarf the other two procs, puncture still seems kinda useless, and impact seems like a less effective blast proc.

[Mu_Gera]

Unfortunately slash still seems to be the best against armor and flesh, puncture and especially impact weapons are still gonna need to rely on sheer damage or elementals to compete at high levels. It's crazy to think that puncture still has no armor defeating aspects besides it's multiplier, when it should be better against it than slash by any sense . Even impact should be better against armor than slash.

 

There's a reason why a hammer or rapier would be better against armor than a sword, but whatever, atleast corrosive is still a crutch. For now.

[Damocles]

So TL:DR DE didn't read discord/forum/reddit com(plai/me)nts, Slash not changed as expected, Puncture scales but still useless (flawed by scaling useless util to more useless util), impact nerfed to make headshots harder for guns and follow up melee kills impossible for impact melee. If you use a War, you better 1 shot or you're gonna chase down the capture target in orbit.
 

EDIT: reading some other comments on this forum and players are right, DE doesn't seem to be playing their own game, this update WILL BREAK ENDGAME. For a game with devs who listen, they sure aren't listening. Slash dmg based off Slash base is legit nerf but we can survive from that, but everyone's expensive endgame slash build rivens are now worthless. Puncture still not related to puncture IRL but more like what Cold procc is, since that's legit 50% reduction in dps while corrosive is currently the closest thing to puncture=wtf? Lastly impact nerf still impact nerf, and with innate impact broken war/ War, the game is done... If they roll this out I will never buy another prime access if they roll with this update. Good thing Anthem's gonna come out when they kill Warframe

[Jabett]

6 minutes ago, DecadeX said:

Okay, slash currently uses 35% of damage, if it then uses 35% of slash damage only then the Grinlock's slash procs suddenly only scale off it's 48 base slash damage instead of all 120 base damage. That is not okay.

35% of 120 is what 42? Now it uses all 48. Slash will be useful on very few weapons, but you picked one it is useful on

[Foefaller]

I want to see this in action before I make any harsh judgments.

I am kind amused that there are people who thought the Amprex was a terrible weapon before Hunter Munitions though.

Do agree that impact ragdolling sounds more of a nuisance than a benefit though. Sonicor is a blast, but there is a reason I rarely bring it to sorties.

[(PSN)zeroexalpha]

4 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!
 

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

 

This is a direct contradiction. This is a MASSIVE nerf to slash damage. I don't have a good feeling about any of this.

[OHKOBunny]

People (Myself included) Want damage more than anything. Damage reduction and ragdolling might sound cool on paper but when you're facing level 150+ enemies who can and will most likely one shot you, it comes down you the necessity being that you need to make them stop existing before a stray bullet hits your shoulder and deletes you.

Knocking enemies around would lead to uncomfortable follow up, however you could very much scale this up by making is to that the impact with the enemy onto a surface (wall, floor) does damage to the afflicted target multiplied by trajectory. I'm unsure if this is in the game already, and if it is, I haven't seen it outside the old snow globe trick.

As for puncture, I'm not 100% sure how it'll play out, really. 75% max sounds a bit too low, because even with Gara's 90% damage reduction she still gets shredded in later levels. Which I mean, should happen to an extent anyway but I digress.

Nerfing slash like this isn't too crazy great in terms of balance, but I don't know how to go about suggesting fixes to this as I'm biased and concerned. I guess allow all Physical damage types to contribute to slash and not elemental. Let's use an axe as example here: It's heavy, it has impact, but it's a slash weapon. Impact will drive the slash deeper, so it will hurt more, yeah? That's how slash procs should work, I think. If not this, give us mods to convert/decrease other damage types in favor of another. We have 'em in PVP already, so I think there's room for them in the rest of the game too.

Gimping one status to make it less great that the other ones isn't good balance, it's literally taking a roof and lowering it. The other two statuses should be buffed harder instead.

Regardless, thanks for all the hard work you guys are putting in, especially over the Holiday Season. DE rocks \ o/

[Trichouette]

il y a 2 minutes, SSI_Seraph a dit :

Only problem is, puncture is still useless even if they give ennemies a 99% Damage output reduction after the proc, impact is a nuisance at best because I wanna kill, not play with my enemies by launching them 10m away and high slash weapons are the only things that are better than/come close to old slash with the second best being way worse than before this "rework". 

You're just summing up what I said in my post, but it's hidden because the moderator reffuses to post it even though everybody here is saying the same thing.

il y a 4 minutes, SSI_Seraph a dit :

And no slash isn't "too good" the other two are absolute trash especially after this rework for impact and puncture is the still the same because a damage output reduction is useless on something that's already dead or that can oneshot you with even 1% of its damage. 

So yes Slash is still the only attractive option and the weapon choice is even more limited with the changes they made to it. 

Try to find a way to make all 3 element worth using without making one straight better than the others... I can't find any idea either.

As soon as one is better than the others, they're both ignored.

And the devs still don't get that armor is why players use slash (that and the stacking bleeding)

[DecadeX]

1 minute ago, Jabett said:

35% of 120 is what 42? Now it uses all 48. Slash will be useful on very few weapons, but you picked one it is useful on

The only change they stated to the way it calculated damage is that it only uses the slash damage now. So it's not 48, it's 35% of 48, so it's 16.8.