[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[Robert_Cop_2]

This will push the slash meta even harder than before:

Overused slash wepons will be the only way to proc enough slash, landing a headshot with an impact weapon will be a nightmare,puncture is still useless because you don't need a damage debuff at low levels and 75% is not enough for high levels.

Without changing ips mods into additive like elementals slash should stay the same, puncture should scale up to 99% and impact should have a chance to disarm after a stagger.

[RottedApples]

i know the slash issues have been mentioned before. melee stances with forced procs as well as hunters munitions being basically trashed for anything that isn't super slash based. I don't mind these procs being less effective, or slash being nerfed a bit as a whole, but this is too much for these fringe cases. 

 

Also i know you will never do it, but I'll ask anyway, please let me turn off ragdolling. It's fun to see S#&$ get launched, it's fun to see team rocket blasting off again, but it's not useable or practical in all situations. it makes it a pain to deal consistent damage to a target when it flies off into the corner, falls down, and gets back up to come at you when you don't realize it.

I love the sonicor, but i never used blast on it because I never wanted to send enemies off the map, i tried it once and loot and power canisters would get stuck in the air so i didn't think it was worth it. I don't want to be using my vulkar, take a shot, enemy goes flying and now i can't give it another follow up shot because it's gone.

[(PSN)Glaive13]

Why is Slash so good DE? It helps directly kill stuff. The weapon takes the damage role because Warframes have much better Crowd Control. You wont make Puncture and Impact relevant by buffing them for a role they already failed at. At least give puncture procs a percent increase in damage taken. Like 15% damage taken and -50% damage done. Instead of actually making impact worse just give it a simple slow and stagger. Sure cold procs also slow, just make it half of the cold procs slow or something. The only time you see a cold proc is when you hit a Corpus barrel anyways. These are meaningless changes to impact + puncture and a straight nerf to slash. Status chance is only relevant because A) Corrosive procs increase damage taken B) Slash is unmitigated damage C) Viral is a scaling %health damage and D) Condition Overload is a pure stacking damage increase. The only other semi-relevant status is radiation, which is mostly because its just got a good multiplier for the #1 enemy in the game, Alloy Armor, as well as very niche use against the infested to counter Ancients' Auras.

[TALISMAN_XVII]

ehh.. This does not sound good.

[trigon360]

How about instead of having puncture reducing damage dealt, why not take increased damage when under puncture proc? Doesn’t that make more sense? Since puncture is more effective against armour, having a puncture proc would pierce the armour and allow more damage taken. 

[22evan]

It sounds all great, just dont mess with slash damage, it is good as it is.

 

[ReinAxefury]

Tbh i don't like this change at all. I understand a nerf to slash, even if i don't like it. But people have given tons of better ideas for a rework to Puncture and Impact. Can't talk for everyone, but people i know (including me) want a hard CC (like a full stun for impact, more procs will refresh the stun in place) or more damage(puncture could give a bonus damage% received on enemies), we don't want ragdoll/soft cc or damage reduction to enemies, i feel it just doesn't fit with the game.

[Kagarrash]

[Enfo]

Stop making guns do things they're not supposed to.

 

They're supposed to do damage, not send enemies flying into space, although both together are okay.

[Arniox]

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch

But wait, what about this:

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted

Does this mean that slash is actually less potent?!?!?! I'm very confused....

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them. In a similar manner, Puncture procs will now scale in effectiveness from 10% to 75% damage reduction, based on the damage dealt at the time of proc. Slash will continue working as it does now, stacking multiple status effects on top of one another.

These changes are great and all, quite good tbh, but what if our main goal is to kill the enemy? I never care about keeping an enemy alive or to CC the crap out of specific 'shot' enemies. I want to kill them. So doesn't this make impact and puncture still useless to these kinds of people; people like me who want to kill as fast as possible?

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Puncture procs will now scale in effectiveness from 10% to 75%

Why isn't the minimum damage effectiveness 30%? You're effectively nerfing puncture at lower ends, and buffing it at higher ends? Why?

4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

In order to help rapid fire weapons compete in this regard, we are also making a systemic change to repeating procs: additional status effects will not “reproc”, but will instead additively increase the effectiveness of the existing proc. The upgraded proc is calculated using the damage total from the original proc and the new proc added together. For Puncture, this also refreshes the duration of the proc.

What does this mean for slash? Slash, as I have implied already, and as you know, is very important to others and I, and doesn't this specific change mean that you cannot re-proc a slash? I'm a little confused on this. Before, if you proc two slash procs, it counts as two bleed procs and does double damage (is that correct or am I being stupid). But now, you can only ever proc ONE slash proc at once and that's it? Please give some info on this, I'm extremely confused on slash specifically. Does procing a new slash just refresh the slash proc and make it work better?

 

I'd love to see a bigger expansion of the details of how slash works and how all these changes affect it. Like a comparison of damage output on extremely high-level enemies, like level 150 bombards. Armored, high-level targets.

[ljmadruga]

This rework seems to miss the entire point of using slash vs. the other damage types entirely.

The reason slash is so desired is because the bleed prof deals damage that ignores armor. Don’t take my word for it, look up a video on any weapon in warframe with really good reviews. All of the slash based weapons are great because they can be paired with corrosive for a better armor strip or viral to cut the health that they have to do in half. Hunter munitions is the reason other types of weapons are even glanced upon. Changing slash will break a TON of weapons and only make the already strong weapons stronger.

I would propose leaving slash exactly as is, since on its own is a great scaling damage type.

As for impact, I HIGHLY agree with the rest of the community in saying that rag dolls from impact would be super annoying. I would like to suggest longer and longer staggers paired with an accuracy debuff. If impact were to launch enemies, make them rag doll about 5m from where they are hit. Leave launching enemies to space for the sonicor.

Puncture is still the weakest of the three. Reducing enemy damage can be done with a number of ways aside from weapons. I would suggest granting puncture procs 3 seconds of damage that ignores armor entirely, just to give puncture weapons an advantage that scales into the endgame.

Sidenote: Status on Continuous weapon’s needs a serious look.

[Rhundis]

Ok, now that i'm not on mobile i can actually write a review idea.

In terms of where i believe Physical Damage Procs stand ATM, as everyone else would agree, Slash is king.

Now if we were to look at everything as a whole i would suggest the following changes to each individual damage type.

 

Also a brief note before we begin, this is all regarded to follow the idea that all procs now stack multiples of themselves on the target.

• Slash - Keep it exactly as it is. However, make it affected by enemy armor. (IE: The more armor they have the less damage or shorter proc rate they get.) 

Note: People will go OMG why would you Nerf this, its the best proc, etc, etc. Wait till i explain the rest of the ideas before you go on the Slash fan train.

• Puncture - Make it ignore a % of the enemies armor. Meaning that there is an X% chance that each projectile will do its full damage. In addition to this, make each Proc of the damage type cause the enemy to have Reduced Accuracy and Slowed Movement Speed.

Note: You try moving at full speed or aiming a gun with a hole in your arm. 

Also Note: Why ignore a % of enemy armor when you can remove it completely? I'll explain more below. (its mostly a balance thing.)

Also Also Note: Only the accuracy reduction / movement debuff would stack with multiple procs not the ignore armor %.

• Impact - Reduce Enemy Armor per shot while Procs cause the enemy to Stagger and have a possibility of disarming their weapon (if any).

Note: Being hit in the chest with a hail of metal slugs would make you think you'd have a hard time holding onto anything, let alone standing up.

Also Note: Higher damaging shots or multiple stacking Impact procs should increase the chance of disarming an enemy while lower damaging shots should just cause a stagger.

 

Now comes the part where i explain my madness. 

It all comes down to trying to scale weapons that have a mix of IPS and those who have solo damage types or lack a portion thereof while trying to make the player think about what to bring into a mission to cover enemy type. For example;

"You have a Heavy Grineer Bombard rushing you from down a corridor. You pull out your Slash weapon of choice and unload against the new threat, but oh no! Because the grineer is heavily armored Slash damage does very little to him. "You try taking a knife to a suit of armor and tell me how effective it is." To buy yourself some more time you switch to a favorable sidearm which, luckily has both Puncture and Impact. Unloading against the Grineer, not only does the Impact break his armor, but the Puncture also slows his advance while simultaneously reducing his accuracy, making that Ogris rocket fly way off target. After you pummel him with enough rounds to render his armor negligible you switch back to your trusty primary and watch as the Slash damage does its magic."

This situation shows how the above damage types, though changed from their original concepts, could be used to create a synergistic system in which it would require the player to think not only of their primary weapon type, but what would support it due to the situation at hand. Whether that be Rifle, Pistol, Melee or anything in between the above changes make sure to not only provide a way to combine uses but makes sure that each damage type is useful by itself as well in the proper circumstances. 

Slash would do excellently against unarmored targets while taking a hit from enemy armor values. Impact would provide not only a way to negate some of the enemies armor but also provide some much needed CC. As we all know CC is king late game. While Impact would be a great way to disarm your opponent or render their armor useless. Much needed at higher levels.

This post is by no means perfect as i'm sure there's someone out there who could find a loophole or flaw with my current suggestion, but i look forward to the feedback and more so, want to stress the idea of providing synergy between damage types rather than trying to give each one a fancy effect.

Thanks for reading my long winded banter.  

TLDR: Physical Damage Procs need to Synergies as well as provide an appropriate effect equal to their type.

[Archwizard]

4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.

While this intention is understandable, Physical damage already weights the chance to inflict status procs based on their damage distribution (ie high Slash weapons have a higher chance to inflict Slash than Impact or Puncture), making this change sort of redundant. 
This change means receiving a Slash proc will now only benefit an innately high-Slash weapon, rather than any weapon.

So what about stances that force elemental procs, like Vulpine Mask's Slash procs designed for Puncture-oriented weapons?
What about the Hunter Munitions mod, whose saving grace is granting Slash procs to weapons like Amprex that wouldn't be able to otherwise?

Likewise, does this mean any changes are coming to mods like Jagged Edge, which are similarly useful only on Physical weapons, and even then only for partial damage?
Or for Blast procs which already inflict knockdowns and ragdolls that Impact plans to?

[Nazzami]

Not a fan of this ragdoll effect would make much more sense for it to be a hard knockdown rather then sending enemies outside of the the mission area via jet powered hammer

[AnarchyChan]

7 минут назад, Rhundis сказал:

Puncture - Make it ignore a % of the enemies armor. Meaning that there is an X% chance that each projectile will do its full damage. In addition to this, make each Proc of the damage type cause the enemy to have Reduced Accuracy and Slowed Movement Speed.

This ^

[Zharun]

Just for all that is holy let the damage of slashprocs remain at 35% of a weapons basedamage or top meta picks like Tigris/Atterax get better while everything else that forces slashprocs on nonslashweapons gets dumpstered. All this does is narrow down the choices for good weapons by a ton while having 0 positive effect on diversity.

In addition this does not change a thing for impact and puncture.

Giving the enemy you are about to kill in 1 second 75% damagereduction is absolutely pointless. Additionally impact already reduces enemy damage by 100% while staggered soo... why is puncture just a worse impact again? Make puncture apply a stacking damagemultiplier where you are aiming similar to banshees sonarspots and tadaa: its a competitor to slash now and as a bonus actually does what the name "puncture" suggests.

Ragdolling enemies all over the place with impact is an actual hindrance to aiming and applying the damage making impact less desirable than it is now. At least with Blast I can decide if I want to do it via modding for it on most weapons but I can not get rid of it on my akstiletto making me not use it much anymore. Does that sound like improvement to you? I hope not.

 

Tldr: Impact gets way worse, Puncture still does not do anything and weapon diversity gets dumpstered with the change to slashs damagecalculations

Consider me highly disappointed in the devteam that balances these things, I expected more insight into how a player actually plays the game.

[Nez-Kal]

Geez, if those are the changes to Impact damage, just what is Blast Damage gonna get?

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

4 hours ago, Drathe said:

Lol, no. Slash is the strongest because it bypasses armour.

 

Imagine that...something that isn't affected by the massive scaling damage reduction. In other words, the only way other than REMOVING THAT DAMAGE REDUCTION, to actually kill high level enemies in a reasonable amount of time.

Puncture reduces enemy damage...cool, Slash kills enemies, and dead enemies deal 0 damage.

Impact staggers or ragdolls enemies. Which means you won't be able to hit headshots as easily, or may miss entirely if they ragdoll too violently. So Impact procs can literally make you take longer to kill an enemy.

In other words, Impact is now even more useless, Puncture is still just as useless, and Slash is getting nerfed.

Good to see that Damage 2.5 has managed to make everything worse.

They haven't even make the changes yet plus no one has tested it out as yet. So y the hate. Wait for damage 2.5 to come out test what needs to be tested then let DE know how u feel about it in a mature and not 4 year old childish way.

[LuckyCharm]

Welp sounds like i'm going back to crit weapons. Bye bye slash i hardly knew ye. 

The changes while they sound good in theory, sound more annoying to play with. I like to melee things, now if someone brings say.. a karak, im going to have all the enemies ragdolling making them worse to try and hit. 

Oh and puncture is still useless. Put as much damage reduction as you want on it, its still not good because weapons are for damage. Frames are for survivability. 

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

8 minutes ago, Zharun said:

Just for all that is holy let the damage of slashprocs remain at 35% of a weapons basedamage or top meta picks like Tigris/Atterax get better while everything else that forces slashprocs on nonslashweapons gets dumpstered. All this does is narrow down the choices for good weapons by a ton while having 0 positive effect on diversity.

In addition this does not change a thing for impact and puncture.

Giving the enemy you are about to kill in 1 second 75% damagereduction is absolutely pointless. Additionally impact already reduces enemy damage by 100% while staggered soo... why is puncture just a worse impact again? Make puncture apply a stacking damagemultiplier where you are aiming similar to banshees sonarspots and tadaa: its a competitor to slash now and as a bonus actually does what the name "puncture" suggests.

Ragdolling enemies all over the place with impact is an actual hindrance to aiming and applying the damage making impact less desirable than it is now. At least with Blast I can decide if I want to do it via modding for it on most weapons but I can not get rid of it on my akstiletto making me not use it much anymore. Does that sound like improvement to you? I hope not.

 

Tldr: Impact gets way worse, Puncture still does not do anything and weapon diversity gets dumpstered with the change to slashs damagecalculations

Consider me highly disappointed in the devteam that balances these things, I expected more insight into how a player actually plays the game.

Um....really..... it isn't even out yet and no one has tested it.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zerorama7 said:

They haven't even make the changes yet plus no one has tested it out as yet. So y the hate. Wait for damage 2.5 to come out test what needs to be tested then let DE know how u feel about it in a mature and not 4 year old childish way.

But you can still draw a conclusion off of what is said. Slash is getting a nerf point blank and simple - Slash procs will now scale of the Slash damage type instead of the total damage of a weapon. <=== A nerf to slash and even more, demand for high slash weapons.

What would a 75% damage reduction do for you at high level? It's not killing the enemy, just prolonging their death 

Impact is gonna be annoying. Constant ragdolling enemies is gonna be annoying because you're not killing, you're pushing them away. It's fun when you have a high ragdoll effect on sonicor a secondary. But what's not so fun, every high impact damage weapon constantly ragdolling enemies and not killing them.

[KunoUshinawa]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Zerorama7 said:

They haven't even make the changes yet plus no one has tested it out as yet. So y the hate. Wait for damage 2.5 to come out test what needs to be tested then let DE know how u feel about it in a mature and not 4 year old childish way.

You clearly don't understand, Damage 2.5 is, at present, a nerf to all damage.

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)Zerorama7 said:

Um....really..... it isn't even out yet and no one has tested it.

Again

[JCBeastie]

Lots of excellent feedback here; I hope DE takes notice. The problem with Impact and Puncture is entirely because of the proc design being undesirable compared to Slash. Damage 2.5 does not address this.

I won't repeat the excellent points that have been made about the changes, however I'd like to throw some suggestions into the mix. Ultimately remember that IPS are valid damage types, with Impact working well against shields, Puncture versus armour and Slash on flesh. What we want is procs that feel worthwhile, Slash accomplishes what you want damage to achieve; a dead enemy, the other two not so much.

I want to avoid procs that do the same thing, I'm seeing a lot of suggestions for Puncture to ignore armour in some way; that is Corrosive's remit, we'll leave that alone. Instead why not think thematically, Puncture is putting holes in the enemy, and weakening it, rather than lowering armour or health (that's Corrosive and Viral's procs) why not instead debuff the enemy with a stacking bonus to Status and Critical chance? This achieves the goal of besting the targets defences while also being a unique mechanic and also has synergy with the other damage types.

For Impact I rather like the stagger, it prevents the enemy from acting against you and also makes them an easier mark, allowing you to apply further damage. Why not then further embrace the logic here and make the Impact proc a way to control enemies? We can't use a slow as Cold fulfils this. We do have a mechanic in game that could be more desirable than a Ragdoll however; pushback. The Grineer turrets do this and it is extremely frustrating, being able to keep an enemy at range, and then stagger them seems fairly practical. Imagine the effect is based on range, so a closer target will be pushed further than one that is far away (we don't want to go pushing anything past the point where your damage would fall off, so the maximum should probably be a fixed number of meters, each weapon having it's own value could get very complicated otherwise).

The idea of scaling the procs is an interesting one, I think simplifying it we say procs will have two stages. Low damage proc produces the minor effect and a high damage proc causes the major effect (although I'm not sure how we distinguish them, by a fraction of total damage maybe?). This can also be influenced by critical and body multipliers. Another thing we could introduce is status chance as a factor, with a chance over 100% you will always inflict the major proc.

So how does that look in summary:

Slash - Minor Proc: DoT effect dealing a percentage of damage in a set number of ticks. Major Proc: Total Slash DoT damage in single instance.

Puncture - Minor Proc: Stacking bonus to CC and SC (with sensible cap ofc). Major Proc: Maximum multiplier applied immediately.

Impact - Minor Proc: Target pushed back slightly for each proc (to a maximum sensible distance). Major Proc: Target becomes staggered/stunned.

I've avoided making any kind of guesses at values as maths is not my strong suit. But I hope this sounds interesting or at least inspiring for an alternative model.

[Airwolfen]

My alternative to the ragdoll effect

Spoiler

So as many have seen, IPS status is getting a rework to their function. In this case I want to provide a possible solution to the issue a lot of people bring up, the stagger and more importantly, the ragdoll effect.

To people who like to min max their damage output on weapons and love both status and headshots there are a few things we most likely all dislike.

1. Ragdoll effects (till now mostly forced through melee combos)
2. Blast
3. Impact

These procs can absolutely devastate the damage you deal by either completely removing the possibility of dealing damage (ragdoll) or making headshots on more precise weapons a hell (impact and blast)

So lets just say I'm quite concerned with the new impact changes.

 

BUT there may be a better alternative

1. first of all for impact itself now that we are at it. Changing the stagger animation so that the head is kept more or less level. Would be mostly appreciative of such a change.

2. Shockwave.

Now what do I mean with shockwave.

Instead of blasting the enemy off.. again.. and not allowing us to finish them off once and for all. We could instead turn a single proc into a wave of staggers.

I was looking around for a good visual representation of what I mean but I guess Ill have to do with the ability of a league of legends character

Now this is graves his ult, but for now I want to focus on how his ability hits. The ability is a explosive projectile that deals splash damage in a cone to targets behind the initial hit.

Now what if Impact was the same. You build up impact (or unleash it at once with high impact) to the point where in the current iteration it will do its ragdoll effect. But instead of a ragdoll it would do a more serious impact proc to the main target that will stun them, and create a shockwave behind the target that impact procs all effected enemies like a shockwave.

Not only will the main impact hit be more valuable as it takes the main target out for multiple seconds it also turns it into effect that can deal with crowds all on its own unlike the other proc types (minus gas).

TL;DR instead of a ragdoll. Turn a single impact proc into a cone behind the main hit in the form of a shockwave.

 

So that is my alternative to the ragdoll.

What do my fellow Tenno think. Would this improve impact as a proc to you under the new system. Do you dislike it? Let me know what you think.

 

[(PSN)AB_FC_314]

Hopefully enemy scaling is being fix in the process of IPS changes