[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[DrNever]

I really don't like this, you're just nerfing slash while pretending to buff puncture and impact...and that MASSIVE change to proc strenght based on the damage type is just unnecessary...seriously, that's going to ruin so many weapons and combinations. Let's talk about the "buffs" too:
Impact procs ragdolling the enemies will just make them more difficult to kill, so why don't you change the effect to a simple stagger or a weapon jam like mesa's 2? That could be useful.
Puncture is just useless like this, i don't need the enemies to do less damage while i'm shooting at them, i need them to TAKE MORE damage and DIE (well, that's a pretty subtle suggestion).

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Aye_Dude4 said:

Hopefully enemy scaling is being fix in the process of IPS changes 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[KunoUshinawa]

1 minute ago, DrNever said:

Puncture is just useless like this, i don't need the enemies to do less damage while i'm shooting at them, i need them to TAKE MORE damage and DIE (well, that's a pretty subtle suggestion).

Master of subtlety. +1 interwebz

[Gene_Freak]

It sounds like you will need to rebalance the 7 point IPS mods for primary and secondary weapons to be 90% of a boost against existing IPS damage, like they are for melee weapons, if you would want this to have any chance of succeeding. It's kind of stunning that this didn't happen years ago, actually 

[Entharias]

All the salt and the ignorance here, makes me proud.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, Rhundis said:

Ok, now that i'm not on mobile i can actually write a review idea.

In terms of where i believe Physical Damage Procs stand ATM, as everyone else would agree, Slash is king.

Now if we were to look at everything as a whole i would suggest the following changes to each individual damage type.

 

Also a brief note before we begin, this is all regarded to follow the idea that all procs now stack multiples of themselves on the target.

• Slash - Keep it exactly as it is. However, make it affected by enemy armor. (IE: The more armor they have the less damage or shorter proc rate they get.) 

Note: People will go OMG why would you Nerf this, its the best proc, etc, etc. Wait till i explain the rest of the ideas before you go on the Slash fan train.

• Puncture - Make it ignore a % of the enemies armor. Meaning that there is an X% chance that each projectile will do its full damage. In addition to this, make each Proc of the damage type cause the enemy to have Reduced Accuracy and Slowed Movement Speed.

Note: You try moving at full speed or aiming a gun with a hole in your arm. 

Also Note: Why ignore a % of enemy armor when you can remove it completely? I'll explain more below. (its mostly a balance thing.)

Also Also Note: Only the accuracy reduction / movement debuff would stack with multiple procs not the ignore armor %.

• Impact - Reduce Enemy Armor per shot while Procs cause the enemy to Stagger and have a possibility of disarming their weapon (if any).

Note: Being hit in the chest with a hail of metal slugs would make you think you'd have a hard time holding onto anything, let alone standing up.

Also Note: Higher damaging shots or multiple stacking Impact procs should increase the chance of disarming an enemy while lower damaging shots should just cause a stagger.

 

Now comes the part where i explain my madness. 

It all comes down to trying to scale weapons that have a mix of IPS and those who have solo damage types or lack a portion thereof while trying to make the player think about what to bring into a mission to cover enemy type. For example;

"You have a Heavy Grineer Bombard rushing you from down a corridor. You pull out your Slash weapon of choice and unload against the new threat, but oh no! Because the grineer is heavily armored Slash damage does very little to him. "You try taking a knife to a suit of armor and tell me how effective it is." To buy yourself some more time you switch to a favorable sidearm which, luckily has both Puncture and Impact. Unloading against the Grineer, not only does the Impact break his armor, but the Puncture also slows his advance while simultaneously reducing his accuracy, making that Ogris rocket fly way off target. After you pummel him with enough rounds to render his armor negligible you switch back to your trusty primary and watch as the Slash damage does its magic."

This situation shows how the above damage types, though changed from their original concepts, could be used to create a synergistic system in which it would require the player to think not only of their primary weapon type, but what would support it due to the situation at hand. Whether that be Rifle, Pistol, Melee or anything in between the above changes make sure to not only provide a way to combine uses but makes sure that each damage type is useful by itself as well in the proper circumstances. 

Slash would do excellently against unarmored targets while taking a hit from enemy armor values. Impact would provide not only a way to negate some of the enemies armor but also provide some much needed CC. As we all know CC is king late game. While Impact would be a great way to disarm your opponent or render their armor useless. Much needed at higher levels.

This post is by no means perfect as i'm sure there's someone out there who could find a loophole or flaw with my current suggestion, but i look forward to the feedback and more so, want to stress the idea of providing synergy between damage types rather than trying to give each one a fancy effect.

Thanks for reading my long winded banter.  

TLDR: Physical Damage Procs need to Synergies as well as provide an appropriate effect equal to their type.

Consider this fellow tenno's idea DE PLEASE except his idea for slash the whole point of a slash proc is to ignore armor so idk why he is suggesting armor reduction on a bleed proc. Actually, he is suggesting that slash procs is better against unarmored targets so don't look at his idea on slash. 

Edit: actually nvm I just noticed he is switching the effectiveness of the damage types (impact breaking armor?) I should read these posts more carefully lol. But his idea on the IPS procs (except slash) is really solid so there is some good points there.

[GhostChaser]

3 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

All the salt and the ignorance here, makes me proud.

Please, take the stage and show us how there's "ignorance here". All I've read since the thread was posted is constructive criticism and ways to help the game improve as a whole. So please, grace us with your opinion.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Really hope you guys at DE really take the time to read this tread and follow then general consensus here...

1. Slash damage: leave as is.

2. Impact damage: should stagger, slow, disarm enemies, opens enemies for a finishers que. (Or all of the above just depends on the amount of impact procs) FORGET THE RAGDOLL.

3. Puncture damage : opens enemies up to more damage from all types. 

4. Fix the ridiculous enemy scaling. 

*think that about sums it up @[DE]Connor

[Gendalph]

@[DE]Connor I've just got an idea.

Why don't testers fire up a dev build with these changes and try running a Sortie? Say, something in the Void, with last stage being Survival on Mot or something, with modifiers being various physical/elemental damage types. I imagine they're competent enough to build for that level of gameplay.

Get some feedback on these changes given those circumstances.

I'm perfectly aware what kind of nightmare that mission is going to be, regardless of what frames and weapons they use, unless someone smart will decide to abuse a loophole.

 

We lack information to form an educated opinion on proposed changes, however, as many people have expressed concerns before me, I fear that:

• A lot of weapons, if not all, relying on Slash procs for damage are getting nerfed.
• Impact procs may become a nuisance, since at higher levels if an enemy survives, then he probably deals enough damage to make your life miserable in a single unexpected attack.
• Puncture procs are inferior at their core: at levels where it matters they don't do enough to be of use: they're too focused on single targets when usually we face a lot of enemies - it's rare to have just one Heavy Gunner, usually it's 2 or more, and then either you die or you find a way to control them using other means, for example - slam attacks or abilities. And even then, there's more issues with dishing out enough damage to kill rather than reducing incoming damage.

[Rhaken]

While I and many others appreciate the changes, I have to point that the changes proposed here will almost certainly not improve the game. Let's take it one point at a time, along with a possible solution to the issue.

 

Impact procs stack, and will end in a ragdoll. This, as many others have pointed out, is the exact opposite of useful. Taking an Impact status weapon will result in frustration as enemies fall down and out of our sights. Wasting the time to aim back down in an unneeded hassle, no matter if you're using a powerful single-shot weapon (Vulkar Wraith) or a high fire-rate weapon (Akstillettto Prime).

To solve this, we can maintain the idea but change the end effect. Impact procs result in staggering for longer and longer periods of time, culminating in a stun that lasts for a few seconds. Why is this good for gameplay? The enemy stays relatively still, still within our reticles and unable to fight back. Impact weapons could see use in helping to lock down enemy heavy units, or forcing an entire corridor to stand still.

 

Puncture procs provide stacking damage reduction on the target. Essentially what they already do, but with more potential, right? Well, not quite. You see, as many others have pointed out, Puncture procs have no real value. Why use a heavy puncture weapon to reduce enemy damage up to 75%, when a heavy Slash (or, in the above scenario, Impact) would either kill them or lock them down and reduce their damage to 0%? At low levels enemies die too fast. At high levels, 25% of roughly 30k (looking at you, level 150 Corpus Tech) is still 7.5k and will still murder anything it hits, short of professional tanks like Chroma.

Puncture can become a highly relevant damage type, however, if we flip it on its head. Puncture procs will provide a stacking vulnerability on enemies instead. The more you ventilate the enemy, the more damage they'll take for the duration from all sources, including your squadmates. With this, Puncture becomes a far more desirable damage type as it reduces time-to-kill across the board for everyone.

The exact percentile increment and limit would have to be middling. If I had to pull a number out of my read-end, I'd say 5% at a time and 50% at the absolute maximum.

This begs the question: why not armor ignore? Because that would narrow down Puncture's efficiency. Very few Corpus and Infested have armor. If we make Puncture effective versus all factions (like Slash, and to an extent, current Impact) we don't stick it into an uncomfortable niche.

 

Now for Slash. King of IPS. The proposed change would make the procs scale off the weapon's Slash damage as opposed to base damage. If the bleed proc is calculated using 100% of the weapon's Slash damage instead of 35% of the weapon's base damage, then any weapon with more than 35% total Slash stands to benefit. If this also means the procs scale off of Slash mods (such as Sweeping Serration), then it's even more of a buff. Heeeeere's the problem. Many other weapons would suffer in efficiency. And personally, I'm not too keen on the idea of an ever-growing Slash proc, as the mass of numbers coming out of an enemy seems like a far more solid indicator of how much dakka you've unloaded into them. It may simply be aversion to change however. Would have to see how it pans out.

 

This segues nicely into my next point: forced procs. Certain mods or stances can force a particular proc. Taking Slash as an example, certain hits from single swords with the Swooping Falcon stance or a critical hit with Hunter Munitions can force a Slash proc. If forced procs aren't treated as a special case, weapons that use and rely on these forced procs are doomed. If we don't, certain weapons that were quite usable and possibly even meta go straight to the dumpster. This includes the entire Rapier class, which relies on Vulpine Mask's forced Slash procs... on Puncture weapons. Also pure elemental weapons, such as the Synapse, that suddenly gained a place in players' hearts with the release of Hunter Munitions.

To solve this, forced procs can be made to work exactly like current Slash: 35% of the weapon's base damage is used in calculating the forced proc's effect, regardless of base IPS distribution.

 

Now to cap this whole thing. The IPS changes as proposed in the beginning of this workshop would be detrimental to game for the following reasons:

• They would reduce the pool of usable or "meta" weapons (Impact would have to be discarded, along with many forced-proc critical rifles of elemental melees)
• They would further skew the meta toward Slash weapons, as the other two damage types do nothing
• Build variety would remain unchanged, as we would gain nothing by experimenting with Impact/Puncture mods

In my (absolutely biased) opinion, the changes I propose and which are really mostly an amalgamation of the opinions of others would improve the game for the following reasons:

• The pool of usable weapons would increase (Impact weapons would see use as mild CC and damage, Puncture weapons would gain favor for reducing time-to-kill)
• The meta would be broaden due to an increase in weapons capable of outstanding damage or utility
• Build variety could rise as Impact/Puncture mods came into player's minds as more than just a way of increasing DPS, but as a way to skew procs in a direction other than Slash

 

There you have it, my two massive cents. Also, while coming up with this post, I even had a weapon idea that would illustrate this version of Puncture's desirability: a cluster-bomb launcher that deals almost exclusively Puncture damage. With a Blast/status build, every hit is CC and every subsequent hit is more devastating. Give that one some thought, eh? :)

[LEGION346]

DE please, you need to understand why people really use Slash + Corrosive most of the time. These statuses help players kill stuff faster and help dealing with BS enemy scaling. Fix enemy scaling, then nerf everything to the ground. Not nerf everything and leave enemy scaling. Don't leave things behind and don't look back (#CriesAsGara). Impact either needs to be a disarm effect or stagger. NOT RAGDOLL. Ragdoll will prevent us from killing stuff. Puncture is pointless. 75% dmg reduction is nothing when comapres to ultimate CC... Death! It reduces dmg by 100%. Wow!

Also don't nerf slash like that. Hunter munitions will be useless. Most of the weapons which do not deal most of it's dmg as slash will be rendered useless. Weapon variety will be killed. I love seeing only Tigris Prime. So much fun /s

[OneLastNinja]

Hmm I like the changes except for puncture I feel like it still won't be used, I think maybe makeing it critical chance instead of damage reduction my help. But that's just my thoughts :) 

[taiiat]

it's a start, but just remember that as this stands, the best Equipment will change from Weapons weighted into applying Slash a lot (or the new mistake of a Mod Hunter Munitions - atleast it won't be so stupid now with making Slash Weapons obsolete  at the very thing they exist for) - to the best Equipment being Slash Weapons.

so it's an improvement, but it has just shifted the problem from Weapons which can apply Status Effects in any way at a decent rate, to Weapons which feature significant Slash Damage.
in this sense, the landscape won't be changing anywhere near as much as you hope because Slash will still be the same, just available to less things. since it's the same, it's still leagues ahead of most everything else.

it also certainly won't be helping if Physical Mods count in this calculation rather than just weighting like they have been previously.

 

 

oh, and an aspect i'd had in mind but forgot by the time this Thread got posted since the Stream in reference - if Impact will Ragdoll/Knockdown, Blast will need a reconsideration as Impact will do the job of Blast.
'but you need to shoot a few times' - Weapons with Status Chance being able to shoot faster than a Musket isn't exactly uncommon.

[KunoUshinawa]

3 minutes ago, OneLastNinja said:

Hmm I like the changes except for puncture I feel like it still won't be used, I think maybe makeing it critical chance instead of damage reduction my help. But that's just my thoughts :) 

I feel you don't understand you just agreed to a massive nerf...

Edit: Actually I'm going to link my first post... to make sure those new to the discussion understand.

 

[lihimsidhe]

Puncture vs Punch Through

What's really bothered me for a while is puncture vs punch through.  Semantically they are the same thing.  Both terms denote something going through something else.  I feel Puncture needs a new name or puncture and punch through need to be merged into one damage type: puncture.  To put it into perspective what if there was slash and another weapon attribute called Slice?  Why sow confusion when there need not be?

My suggestion is that the amount of puncture damage determines how many enemies a projectile/melee weapon will travel through before stopping.  Change all existing punch through mods to +puncture damage mods.  Traditionally slash based weapons don't fare that well against armor.  While a warframe is strong enough to slash a space age sword through dozens of medieval knights in one swing, it's not the same case for Grineer who have space age armor.

As for the damage reduction Puncture procs it kind of makes sense.  If I had a bullet fired through me, I'd have difficulty composing my self.  However, me being impaled by bullets and swords wouldn't nerf the damage on my weapons.  It would make it much more difficult for me to use my weapons.  Instead of damage reduction have Puncture procs affect attack accuracy.  More or less the same effect as damage reduction but it makes more sense.

Also discuss the idea that all IPS procs have a small chance to proc any of the other IPS types at random.  If a bullet punctures me, it's safe to say I'd be bleeding (Slash).  If I got slashed with a huge Claymore sword and didn't outright get cleaved in half, I'd be knocked off balance at the very least (Impact).  Etc.  You get the idea.

Enjoy your holidays!

[Wrathz0]

I think Puncture and Impact should be looked at again and given different affects when proc'd. This is just my idea:

Puncture-When proc'd it should give something like a damage boost to damage types across the board(Elemental combos, etc) or something similar.

Impact-Keep the slight stun but add something to other than raggdolling them when fully proc'd cause when they raggdoll it becomes somewhat of a chore to find that enemy and finish them off.

Its nice that yall are trying to change the meta, give us more options with what weapons to bring in missions and make the other 2 damage types better so they can be competitive with Slash but Slash will always win even when you make it only do damage based off of the weapon's slash damage(I think thats correct not sure correct me if im wrong). 

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, lihimsidhe said:

My suggestion is that the amount of puncture damage determines how many enemies a projectile/melee weapon will travel through before stopping.  Change all existing punch through mods to +puncture damage mods.

your intent is nice, however in result doing that would heavily nerf all Status Weapons, unfortunately.

[Guy3nder]

 Overall I like the direcion this is going, and I think it this system would be better than damage 2.0. Although there are a few things that bother me:

 With procs being based the damage of that specific damage type (as suggested by simple logic), slash will be nudged just enough so it isnt the noly viable status effect. I'm just wandering how will hunter munitions be affected by this? Elemental weapons were given a chance to have the slash proc on them and i would like to see that stay.

 Puncture sounds like a good idea to me, although it has to be tested in practice. I do wonder however if the maximum damage reduction shouldn't be higher?

 Impact concerns me the most. Staggering has its uses, but rag-doll? The Vulkar example is a perfect one. If the enemy stays alive but is rag-dolled, wouldn't it be difficult to re-track the enemy? And wouldn't it be confusing whether the enemy is dead or just status proc'd?

 In conclusion while I believe the entire update is for the better, and while I'm glad to see you respond to the community feedback and the state of the game and with such creative solutions, I expect that alterations will be necessary in the near future.

 Thank you for reading (if you did) and happy holidays to all the DE stuff and warframe community.

 May your grakatas never run out of ammo.

[lihimsidhe]

1 minute ago, Wrathz0 said:

I think Puncture and Impact should be looked at again and given different affects when proc'd. This is just my idea:

Puncture-When proc'd it should give something like a damage boost to damage types across the board(Elemental combos, etc) or something similar.

Impact-Keep the slight stun but add something to other than raggdolling them when fully proc'd cause when they raggdoll it becomes somewhat of a chore to find that enemy and finish them off.

Its nice that yall are trying to change the meta, give us more options with what weapons to bring in missions and make the other 2 damage types better so they can be competitive with Slash but Slash will always win even when you make it only do damage based off of the weapon's slash damage(I think thats correct not sure correct me if im wrong). 

I like your puncture idea because it makes sense.  If an enemy has a puncture proc it means their defenses have been breached which provides a vector for all future damage to exploit.

I also like the impact idea NOT procing a ragdoll or knockdown because if it does, what the crap is blast good for then?

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

2 hours ago, ChainEnder said:

 Overall I like the direcion this is going, and I think it this system would be better than damage 2.0. Although there are a few things that bother me:

 With procs being based the damage of that specific damage type (as suggested by simple logic), slash will be nudged just enough so it isnt the noly viable status effect. I'm just wandering how will hunter munitions be affected by this? Elemental weapons were given a chance to have the slash proc on them and i would like to see that stay.

 Puncture sounds like a good idea to me, although it has to be tested in practice. I do wonder however if the maximum damage reduction shouldn't be higher?

 Impact concerns me the most. Staggering has its uses, but rag-doll? The Vulkar example is a perfect one. If the enemy stays alive but is rag-dolled, wouldn't it be difficult to re-track the enemy? And wouldn't it be confusing whether the enemy is dead or just status procced?

 In conclusion while I believe the entire update is for the better, and while I'm glad to see you respond to the community feedback and the state of the game and with such creative solutions, I expect that alterations will be necessary in the near future.

 Thank you for reading (if you did) and happy holidays to all the DE stuff and warframe community.

 May your grakatas never run out of ammo.

Slash will still be the only viable status effect, with an even more increase in differences between high slash weapons compared to other damage types

[Ragingwasabi]

5 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash has long been considered the most powerful of these effects, primarily because Slash procs stack on top of one another and scale with weapon damage, while both Puncture and Impact procs could only have their flat effects refreshed.

thats only half the reason slash is superior. the other reason is slash is focused on dealing damage. why bother with CCing and debuffing enemies with impact and puncture procs when when u can straight up kill them with slash procs.

So i think impact and puncture still needs some changes in the form of an additional offensive effect.

Perhaps:

impact procs allow the shot to ignore shields
puncture procs allow the shot to ignore a percentage of armour.

 

Also

4 hours ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

Making holes on them affect their Weapons Woah Warframe Logic LuL

this bothers me too. instead maybe change puncture to affect enemy accuracy. an enemy getting their armour/shields punctured, becoming panicked and scared and thus firing with less accuracy seems more believable.

 

 

[Sebith]

The first time i found out that puncture reduce enemies damage... i still can't understand the logic behind that.

Puncture should do as the name suggest. It should penetrate/reduce/ignore some percentage of armor. It should affect armor not weapons.

As for the impact damage, instead of rag doll (that is Blast element effect) it should increase stun duration to assist head shots.

[--F--NerevarCM]

3 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Or just the enemy standing around dizzy and unable to move, or cause more damage the higher the enemy's armor is because impact is causing enemy to rattle IN that armor.

And how that would be better than straight up kill with slash?

Its amusing to see everyone in this thread saying its a bad decision but no one can give a good tip to make Puncture and Impact worth without nerfing slash

 

"Lets make Puncture strip armor" Useless, Slash bypass armor and kill the enemy in seconds.

"Lets make Impact stun the enemy" Useless, while they are dizzy, there's a lot of other enemies in the room, meanwhile slash could kill them all easily.

[Tahoma]

Could you address IPS mods basing their damage off the weapon's damage of the same type, rather than basing it on the total physical damage - like how we have with elemental mods?

If I put a Slash mod on my Silva & Aegis Prime, I wasted a slot because the weapon has 0 base Slash.

If I put a Toxin mod on my Skana, I will get 90% additional toxin damage based off the total physical damage on the weapon.

[xXHobbitXx]

so much negativity without even being able to test it yet, how about you all just wait till it comes out before you dismiss everything as horrible