[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[--F--NerevarCM]

2 minutes ago, Sebith said:

The first time i found out that puncture reduce enemies damage... i still can't understand the logic behind that.

Puncture should do as the name suggest. It should penetrate/reduce/ignore some percentage of armor. It should affect armor not weapons.

As for the impact damage, instead of rag doll (that is Blast element effect) it should increase stun duration to assist head shots.

And how that would be as good as straight up kill with slash?

[ChiefJefe]

So with all these changes I can no longer use low Slash proc weapons with Hunter Munitions, and instead will be forced to use high slash proc weapons... like Tigris P, Atterax, Gal P. Meta is now even more meta.

Also I'll need to avoid impact damage like the plague so that instead of playing chase the enemy I can actually kill them and I'll also need to ignore puncture because it doesn't actually help in killing enemies.

TL;DR Meta-slash weapons are king, impact weapons are troll weapons, and puncture weapons remain useless.

[Awro]

It doesn't seem like the puncture changes will really matter at all. Also, why nerf slash by decreasing the damage it can scale off of rather than simply buff the other two types more? if you really wanted to nerf slash in a way that brings it in line, maybe don't make it ignore armor, then you have to combo it with corrosive procs at least to have the same power rather than just making it do less and making mods from the hunter set that you literally just released be significantly worse than they are. Obviously, i haven't played with the changes so i can't say anything for certain, but it seems like some of this might not be the best direction, and making these changes without factoring in the variables that so many people are concerned about seems loose. While i understand the desire to release the changes and get them done and into the hands of the public, it seems like this is only going to cause more headaches and work than taking the extra time and effort to make sure it releases as close to perfect as possible.

[KunoUshinawa]

1 minute ago, xXHobbitXx said:

so much negativity without even being able to test it yet, how about you all just wait till it comes out before you dismiss everything as horrible

Because it's a horrid nerf? Because it will make most of the game unplayable?

[kowalsky386]

4 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Interesting changes. Let’s hope Impact and Puncture will be as good as slash.

1. but it clearlly states that they wont tho...
2. pure slash weapons just got a buff
3. weapons that counted on slash but were ips close got nerf

that all it is really... 

oh and hunter munitions just got sent to bin along with stances that had hidden slash proc

[Maugre]

If anything, wouldn't it make sense for impact to affect weapon damage while puncture (I know, big surprise) lowers armor or increases damage taken?

Being hit with a hammer might make your aim a bit shaky for a while, and people have been known to shrug off bullet wounds (ie puncture) until later when their adrenaline dies down (or something like that).

[--F--NerevarCM]

Just now, Uzkost said:

Because it's a horrid nerf? Because it will make most of the game unplayable?

"most of the game UNPLAYABLE" lol

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

39 minutes ago, JCBeastie said:

Lots of excellent feedback here; I hope DE takes notice. The problem with Impact and Puncture is entirely because of the proc design being undesirable compared to Slash. Damage 2.5 does not address this.

I won't repeat the excellent points that have been made about the changes, however I'd like to throw some suggestions into the mix. Ultimately remember that IPS are valid damage types, with Impact working well against shields, Puncture versus armour and Slash on flesh. What we want is procs that feel worthwhile, Slash accomplishes what you want damage to achieve; a dead enemy, the other two not so much.

I want to avoid procs that do the same thing, I'm seeing a lot of suggestions for Puncture to ignore armour in some way; that is Corrosive's remit, we'll leave that alone. Instead why not think thematically, Puncture is putting holes in the enemy, and weakening it, rather than lowering armour or health (that's Corrosive and Viral's procs) why not instead debuff the enemy with a stacking bonus to Status and Critical chance? This achieves the goal of besting the targets defences while also being a unique mechanic and also has synergy with the other damage types.

For Impact I rather like the stagger, it prevents the enemy from acting against you and also makes them an easier mark, allowing you to apply further damage. Why not then further embrace the logic here and make the Impact proc a way to control enemies? We can't use a slow as Cold fulfils this. We do have a mechanic in game that could be more desirable than a Ragdoll however; pushback. The Grineer turrets do this and it is extremely frustrating, being able to keep an enemy at range, and then stagger them seems fairly practical. Imagine the effect is based on range, so a closer target will be pushed further than one that is far away (we don't want to go pushing anything past the point where your damage would fall off, so the maximum should probably be a fixed number of meters, each weapon having it's own value could get very complicated otherwise).

The idea of scaling the procs is an interesting one, I think simplifying it we say procs will have two stages. Low damage proc produces the minor effect and a high damage proc causes the major effect (although I'm not sure how we distinguish them, by a fraction of total damage maybe?). This can also be influenced by critical and body multipliers. Another thing we could introduce is status chance as a factor, with a chance over 100% you will always inflict the major proc.

So how does that look in summary:

Slash - Minor Proc: DoT effect dealing a percentage of damage in a set number of ticks. Major Proc: Total Slash DoT damage in single instance.

Puncture - Minor Proc: Stacking bonus to CC and SC (with sensible cap ofc). Major Proc: Maximum multiplier applied immediately.

Impact - Minor Proc: Target pushed back slightly for each proc (to a maximum sensible distance). Major Proc: Target becomes staggered/stunned.

I've avoided making any kind of guesses at values as maths is not my strong suit. But I hope this sounds interesting or at least inspiring for an alternative model.

I love your think I agree with this and hope DE take what your saying in to consideration 

[TotallyLagging]

It's kind of ironic that you used Vulkar as an example when it would benefit the least from these changes. When I use snipers I want to headshot enemies. Ragdolling... Does not help with that. Like, I know a lot of us like ragdolling on certain weapons, like Sonicor or Jat Kittag, but we don't want it on every single impact weapon in existence. It's fun every once in a while, but when every enemy I shoot gets ragdolled it's just frustrating. You can already emulate this using Firequake Ember, see how many headshots you can get with that on. In the Khora preview proccing impact could launch enemies to space. Yeah, it was funny, but let's face it 90% of the time that will bug out the mission if the target isn't dead.

And slash proc change... I highly recommend reviewing the change because this just killed Hunter Munitions and a lot of melee weapons. Hunter Munitions helped people use weapons that they generally don't touch anymore because they're unable to deal with the ridiculous armor scaling this game has. Some weapons feel like they're specifically made with the mod in mind, like the Baza. With the change I could maybe use it on Dread and... That's it. And melees, remember Jat Kusar? It's fire only, but relies on the forced slash procs from Defiled Snapdragon. Without it, it's an incredibly slow B&W with crap status (read : it's garbage). Same thing with Lacera. Or Twin Basolk, I have a Blast Basolk build that basically relies on knocking people down with blast and hoping I proc slash with the ground finisher. Silva & Aegis Prime? A whole bunch of Zaws that doesn't use Cyath strike?

Remember that we're defending slash procs because of armor. If this change were implemented with a more balanced armor scaling we'd probably won't complain as much. 

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

"most of the game UNPLAYABLE" lol

Ok well sorties and teir 5 bounties, and endless endurance runs. So yeah, I mean unless you want to Ivara+covert lethality everything. Not that I'm against that.

[WMan22]

Impact really needs to be a ramping stagger stunlock duration that opens enemies up for finishers instead of a ragdoll duration. It's not easy to headshot a ragdoll, and this completely destroys long range weapon viability. Bye bye vulkar, bye bye defense. Anyone using an impact weapon will be as hated as a limbo user that doesn't know what they're doing entering the team.

Puncture needs to do something completely different as what's proposed here since Impact completely elminates the usefulness of puncture and defeats itself completely. Why reduce damage by a percentage when you can reduce damage 100% instead by not allowing enemies to shoot you at all? And besides, enemy damage scales so freaking fast that by the time you've reduced their damage by 75% they'll either be dead or you'll be dead. Just make it 75% armor reduction not damage reduction.

The way slash is about to work basically removes zaws (And by extension any weapons that are niche and somewhat bad but suddenly become viable because of weighting their IPS towards slash a little) from the game in terms of viability, since a lot of the only useful zaws work because you can weight an otherwise impact or puncture IPS into slash with the right mod setup. Plus, you're basically turning slash into the way that beam weapons (Something that needs to be buffed) work, which isn't nearly as fun or gratifying as watching a fountain of numbers spew off an enemy like a barrel of water that just got machine gunned into swiss cheese.

This doesn't appear to be making anything better, just everything objectively worse while dressing it up as something "better".

If this is what you have in mind for changing physical procs I'm terrified of what you're going to do to elemental. This is a really, really bad idea, and I'm not just saying that because I'm afraid of these nerfs (But that is one reason), I'm saying it because it simply does not make any lick of sense in a live combat situation. I'm not talking about simulacrum testing, I'm talking reasonable duration defense or survival. Good luck ending a mission when the dude with an impact IPS is making it extremely hard to headshot enemies.

The answer to damage 3.0, 2.5, whatever you're calling it is not to fix what isn't broken, but to fix what IS broken: Enemy damage and armor scaling, and the requirement to put an outright damage mod like hornet strike on every single weapon as a mandatory inclusion for any level of proper viability.

Please, I beg and implore you heavily take another look at what you're proposing beyond like level 125 enemies. This is not a good idea in it's current form.

[--F--NerevarCM]

4 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

Ok well sorties and teir 5 bounties, and endless endurance runs. So yeah, I mean unless you want to Ivara+covert lethality everything. Not that I'm against that.

You mean the ones I do easily with Rhino and a Latron Prime? LOL

You need to use slash weapons to do Sortie lvl 3 and Tier 5 bounties?

 

And please tell me, there's something gated behind "endless endurance runs"? Because the things that drop from lvl 150/300 enemies are the same that drops from lvl 100 enemies.

[EmberStar]

I'm curious, how is the new scaling going to work for pure Elemental weapons, when some stances have a chance to use IPS procs?  How will it effect Hunter Munitions?  Because right now, this feels like it's going to NUKE Hunter Munitions on any weapons that isn't nearly pure Slash, and destroy things like the Rapier stance that procs Slash as part of one of the combos.  (I think Rapiers are mostly Puncture based, with very little Slash.)  And it would make both completely useless on any pure elemental weapon, since those have 0% slash as part of their base stats.  You'd proc Bleed effects that deal no damage.

[RunicZeus]

5 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

But

5 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

Wouldn't this mean that Slash procs will deal LESS damage? On weapons like Galatine, Tigris, Stterax it won't be too significant. But won't this be a huge nerf to weapons like the Arca Scisco? In addition to that, how will this effect Hunter Munitions? Will the slash proc take the whole weapon damage or some given the amount of slash damage? If so what happens to pure elemental weapons will decent to high crits like the Arca Plasmor or the Amperex?

Also, I am highly concerned about impact procs ragdolling enemies. Here is a scenario

I'm doing a survival mission and I need to kill things fast to get life support. With my Vaykor Marlok that has high status and mainly deals impact I keep ragdolling enemies far away and not killing them and since they are farther away I can't kill them or I can't kill fast enough cause i cant see their heads. If that keeps up I'll keep ragdolling enemies and end up running out of life support. 

This might actually make impact worse especially if you have to kill something like extermination in the Plains of Eidolon etc.

I hope this gets taken into consideration as this is my constructive criticism and I don't want Tenno entering a new update will one of the most crucial mechanics in the game only to complain about this. 

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

 

Leveling the Field:

Those of you who watched our most recent Devstream will remember Khora, our next Warframe. Her powers allow players to switch between Impact, Puncture and Slash type modes, influencing the damage skew of her abilities. We saw this exciting new idea as an opportunity to revisit the various status proc types, and shake things up a bit!

In an update coming soon, we will be making changes to IPS status effects and proc damage calculation. Our primary goal was improving Impact and Puncture; both of these procs will now scale in effectiveness, based on the damage dealt. An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them. In a similar manner, Puncture procs will now scale in effectiveness from 10% to 75% damage reduction, based on the damage dealt at the time of proc. Slash will continue working as it does now, stacking multiple status effects on top of one another.

 

Covering our Bases:

Here’s where the math starts to get complicated - for all you stat-savvy Saryns and min-maxing Mesas out there, read on!

Our more observant theorycrafters may see a flaw in the examples given above - these new damage-scaling procs would favour weapons that can output large damage amounts all at once, like snipers. In order to help rapid fire weapons compete in this regard, we are also making a systemic change to repeating procs: additional status effects will not “reproc”, but will instead additively increase the effectiveness of the existing proc. The upgraded proc is calculated using the damage total from the original proc and the new proc added together. For Puncture, this also refreshes the duration of the proc.

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

To help visualize how these changes will look, let's deep dive into the physical damage types to see how they play out in-game:

Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control. Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator? Immobilize priority targets by unloading your Akstillettos, giving you more time to address the threat. Overwhelmed by an army of MOAs? Level entire rooms with something like a Strun!

Puncture can be used to minimize enemy lethality for frames with less survivability. Using high status puncture melees like Boltace or Endura, go blow-for-blow with Butchers and Powerfists without breaking a sweat. And if your Lex Prime can’t oneshot the Heavy Gunner rumbling towards your defense point, the enemy’s damage will be diminished long enough to safely deal the finishing blow.

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

 

Final Intentions:

It's important that everyone understands our goals and what led us to the above changes. When designing Khora, an Impact/Puncture/Slash based frame, we knew it was time to bring up Impact and Puncture to Slash competitive levels of desirability thanks to long-term feedback. Having a frame specialize in the physical damage types is a pretty appropriate way to debut changes! Please approach all feedback with the understanding that from our end, our goal is a more interesting systemic change. Any edge case things that feel like massive nerfs should be civilly listed so we can address.

 

So what i'm getting is 

1. Your nerfing slash procs (how can you say "Slash will continue working as it does now", try to send some people away and in the very next section you're clearly changing it.)

2. You making impact procs go from underwhelming to an actual hindrance, i don't know if sonicor fanatics have infested DE but i for one am not a fan of you making a dmg type that is on most weapons into something as annoying as ragdoll. (If you go through with this i would like to request the addition of some -100% impact mods with some supplemental stats or something for each weapon type, actually i'll take just -100% impact even, seriously though, please no ragdoll, you have melee stances with built in impact procs, understand how terrible ragdoll is)

3.Puncture is receiving a buff, 95% is probably where you want to be if you want it to be one of the popular status procs but i'll take 75%

 

 

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

You mean the ones I do easily with Rhino and a Latron Prime? LOL

You need to use slash weapons to do Sortie lvl 3 and Tier 5 bounties?

Ivara+covert works fine, I don't need slash unless it's sortie defense... Gets kind of chaotic in there.

1 minute ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And please tell me, there's something gated behind "endless endurance runs"? Because the things that drop from lvl 150 enemies are the same that drops from lvl 100 enemies.

True, but why not push yourself? Though I guess the real question is... When we get more late game story line what will its level be? I dream of a warframe where the story line hits level 250.

[(XBOX)Im2UrRight]

This has me worried about hunter munitions and impact rag doll issues. I would prefer the impact change to be a stagger on non shielded enemies or enemies with no shields, recovery time increases with the damage of the weapon, and would be sued as a shield shredder with a flat damage bonus based on the damage of the weapon + a small percentage of their shields.

[WMan22]

4 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And please tell me, there's something gated behind "endless endurance runs"? 

Relic buffs like affinity and resources.

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 minute ago, Uzkost said:

Ivara+covert works fine, I don't need slash unless it's sortie defense... Gets kind of chaotic in there.

True, but why not push yourself? Though I guess the real question is... When we get more late game story line what will its level be? I dream of a warframe where the story line hits level 250.

That means "most of the game UNPLAYABLE" isn't true.

[--F--NerevarCM]

2 minutes ago, WMan22 said:

Relic buffs like affinity and resources.

Not tied to level but "time". And the buffs change nothing. Its not new or gated content.

That means what he said "most of the game UNPLAYABLE" isn't true.

[xXHobbitXx]

12 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

Because it's a horrid nerf? Because it will make most of the game unplayable?

thats 1 big assumption that you cant make as you cant test it, like i said wait til it comes out before you dismiss everything as horrible or unplayable, they are attemtping to make things better but you lot only see "nerf" on slash lmao, seriously calm down stop over reacting and wait and see how it plays out

[WMan22]

1 minute ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Not tied to level but "time". And the buffs change nothing. Its not new or gated content.

That means what he said "most of the game UNPLAYABLE" isn't true.

If you don't understand why going longer in a mission vs going for 5-20 minutes and restarting frequently is enjoyable, you never will.

[Samuel_sfx]

im thinking if puncture proc on certain body parts will highlight it like banshee sonar and that part will take more damage because of it

like broken armor

you create a weakness

[(PSN)DBR87]

Also if you guys could buff Rifle Aptitude, Sure Shot, Melee Prowess, and Shotgun Savvy, that would be great. Would be nice to have a status focused weapon without the need to put elements on it.

[RunicZeus]

40 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

"You have a Heavy Grineer Bombard rushing you from down a corridor. You pull out your Slash weapon of choice and unload against the new threat, but oh no! Because the grineer is heavily armored Slash damage does very little to him. "You try taking a knife to a suit of armor and tell me how effective it is." To buy yourself some more time you switch to a favorable sidearm which, luckily has both Puncture and Impact. Unloading against the Grineer, not only does the Impact break his armor, but the Puncture also slows his advance while simultaneously reducing his accuracy, making that Ogris rocket fly way off target. After you pummel him with enough rounds to render his armor negligible you switch back to your trusty primary and watch as the Slash damage does its magi

2

At the level that armor becomes too much will also be the point where said Bombard can one-shot you. By the time you do all that fancy weapon switching:

Omae wa mou shinderu

So no. Slash should not be affected by armor.