[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[--F--NerevarCM]

Just now, WMan22 said:

If you don't understand why going longer in a mission vs going for 5-20 minutes and restarting frequently is enjoyable, you never will.

We're not talking about enjoyment. We're talking about nerfing slash making content unplayable.

I don't care about what you think its enjoyable. Going against lvl 100000 enemies gives the same content as going against lvl 100. Doesn't matter if its more enjoyable to you.

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 minute ago, RunicZeus said:

At the level that armor becomes too much will also be the point where said Bombard can one-shot you. By the time you do all that fancy weapon switching:

Omae wa mou shinderu

So no. Slash should not be affected by armor.

Then please tell us how you will make Puncture and Impact as good as slash without nerfing it. Because right now Slash is pretty much insta kill.

[--F--NerevarCM]

Double post

[Bobtm]

Most of these sound like intriguing changes, however there's one part that is quite concerning.

5 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

This change will almost make the situation with physical status capabilities even more one-sided than it currently is in Warframe.  While ragdolling an enemy is funny (and I'll get a good laugh for sure) it's objectively weaker than being able to expedite that foe's death via Slash.  With procs calculating off of the physical type only rather than from the base damage, in tandem with the current math used for physical mods, you're making it so that Slash based weapons are objectively superior to everything else outright.

Even moreso, this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of a majority of the more diverse or obscure melee weapons in the game.  While simultaneously favoring Slash focused weaponry to an even larger degree than is currently the case, due to stances having forced status procs.

The only way for a change like this to work without massively shifting the balance heavily in favor of weapons with high base Slash, is to change the physical mod math to match up with how elemental mod math works.

___________________

As a minor addendum, Slash will still be the overall king after these changes.  Enemies being dead is better than enemies having lower damage, or flopping about.

[Crimson_S]

Anyone remember original damage 1.0 puncture with partial armor ignore? it feels like a nice counter to slash (as currently not the proposed change). besides could make some older weapons viable again like the despair...raw damage with no real use.

[Sebith]

33 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And how that would be as good as straight up kill with slash?

Yes, it can be as good. It's all about the numbers they put.

[YandereWaifu]

5 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

I really, really hate this direction for impact procs. Ragdolling things may be funny CC, but it makes them more annoying and time consuming to kill, especially since their heads will often end up out of targetting.

And the big problem with this as opposed to Blast is that you can generally choose whether or not you WANT to mod for blast damage and its effects on weapons; Impact having a possibly undesired effect is something you can't opt out of except by no longer using the weapon.

EDIT: And also, changing slash procs to only be based on slash damage is a massive neutering of the slash procs in many stances. Some of which are even BUILT around them, like Rapier weapons which are almost entirely puncture. From the sounds of it, a charge attack from my Dark Dagger will now inflict a bleed of 0 damage, too.

the way i see impact procs, a stun locked enemy is one who isnt shooting back, wouldnt matter if you cant kill something quickly if its already so strong that it would kill you half as quick as youd kill it

[--F--NerevarCM]

4 minutes ago, Sebith said:

Puncture that ignore armor with incoming slash nerf? Yes, it can be as good. It's all about the numbers.

 

5 minutes ago, Crimson_S said:

Anyone remember original damage 1.0 puncture with partial armor ignore? it feels like a nice counter to slash (as currently not the proposed change). besides could make some older weapons viable again like the despair...raw damage with no real use.

Remember in damage 1.0 when everyone only used armor ignore weapons because it could kill high lvl enemies and bosses regardless of level?

Thats why Damage 2.0 exists.

Armor Ignore would make everyone forget slash and impact and only use Puncture.

While slash takes a second to kill a enemy, puncture + high damage weapon would be insta-kill.

Just shift the problem from slash to puncture and fix nothing.

[PsiWarp]

Hmm, seems interesting but could definitely do without ragdolling on Impact. It's funny, it's hilarious, it might have a chance to instantly kill an enemy because it can't recover from being ragdolled, but it also throws them far away while causing their bodies to bend in on itself, preventing headshots to help kill that enemy faster. It's like Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm that still messes up targeting even after the tentacles are forced to slow down their wiggling.

Honestly, there are many in-game mechanics that could be used instead of this.

• Impact
  • Proc 1 - short stagger in place
  • Proc 2 - stumble backward for 2 seconds.
  • Proc 3 - drops weapon where the enemy stood on proc, knockback a few meters away and the enemy suffers a knockdown.
    • This version of "disarm" uses Titania's Spellbind weapon dropping feature. Enemies will need to recover from knockdown, run back to the original spot to pick up their weapons, then be able to attack again.

The key feature here is that the enemy being CCed by Impact procs have predictable travel paths and animations that you won't get with a full ragdoll effect. You can still aim for the parts of their bodies with damage multipliers with practice, but a flailing limp body flying off in random directions is simply too disorienting.

[WMan22]

10 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

We're not talking about enjoyment. We're talking about nerfing slash making content unplayable.

I don't care about what you think its enjoyable. Going against lvl 100000 enemies gives the same content as going against lvl 100. Doesn't matter if its more enjoyable to you.

It does, actually. You play video games to enjoy them, not as a job. Just because you want things nerfed doesn't mean that everyone else does.

[Ramrr]

Impact - that is actualy bad change, If i want to launch enemies away, I will use sonicr , otherwise 99% of time I don't want to be chasing each enemy upon accidental impact procing him with any weapon. Also it will be huge pain when we as players would be target of that. It would be like being thrown into ball pit of doom (anyone who remembers old steel meridian assassination squad will know what I mean),

 

Puncture - relatively same, effect is still as meh as as it was before.

 

Slash - effect staying the same - nice. Changing how it calculates - not nice. Before you will roll that out please fix all stances for all possible combinations of weapons that don't have slash, hunter munitions and probably some other interactions that will be no doubtly broken by that.

 

Overall I give this changes a "Frohd Beks Larynx from before reconstruction" / 10 - Please rethink it again DE and think if it would be enjoyable for you to play with proposed changes. Give impact corrosive proc ability and make corrosive, temporary half enemy armor like viral does for health or something. For puncture make target receive 5% of damage as finisher damage or something upon being proced. Dunno if those are good ideas but please think about it some more before implementing your envisioned changes.

[--F--NerevarCM]

Just now, WMan22 said:

It does, actually. You play video games to enjoy them, not as a job. Just because you want things nerfed doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Doesn't mean what is fun to you is the same for everyone.

And again, we're talking about how nerfing slash would make the game "Unplayable"

Not about your enjoyment.

[RunicZeus]

@-SDM-NerevarCM

Then please tell us how you will make Puncture and Impact as good as slash without nerfing it. Because right now Slash is pretty much insta kill.

In my opinion. Puncture can multiply dmg given after a proc has occurred. At least it's better than "reducing enemy dmg" because like you said slash is insta kil.

The dmg multiplied depends on the damage of the puncture of the weapon and increases with every stack.

The impact shouldn't be a ragdoll and a stagger that is increased in duration depending on the amount of impact and is refreshed on procs.

I've already posted in this forum post why ragdoll impact is bad. Also fixing the problem shouldn't be nerfing slash but buffing impact and puncture because there is NOTHING WRONG with slash because enemy scaling is stupid.

If slash was affected by armor it would take forever to kill enemies and the stupid CP squads will return hurting build diversity more that is now.

[xXHobbitXx]

it wont make game unplayable at all :)

[WMan22]

1 minute ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Doesn't mean what is fun to you is the same for everyone.

And again, we're talking about how nerfing slash would make the game "Unplayable"

Not about your enjoyment.

How does nerfing slash improve the game or make it more fun?

What makes screwing up several people's builds and making several niche weapons no longer viable in favor of a small pool of meta weapons not a horrible mistake?

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 minute ago, WMan22 said:

How does nerfing slash improve the game or make it more fun?

What makes screwing up several people's builds and making several niche weapons no longer viable in favor of a small pool of meta weapons not a horrible mistake?

And that makes the game "unplayable"?

[(PSN)Zertryx]

For me i always assumed "Puncture" would be a damage type that "Punctures Armor" making an enemy weaker to other attacks, not the other way around where they do less to me. I think something along the lines of making it so it shreds armor would be much more effective as well as make sense to its wording.

"Impact" makes more sense with staggering / stunning, but i do have concerns with a rag doll effect (unless it only rag dolls when its dead and the body has a chance to hurt other enemy's then that could be cool) but if anything would reduce enemy damage imo it would be Impact as it could also "disarm" enemy's in such a way / its CC already makes them do no dmg or it could even reduce Accuracy.

Slash i am surprised you made this damage type "ignore armor" as you would assume Puncture would fill this role, i always felt Slash sounded like it was better for "Bio enemy's / unarmored"

Until we see the changes in actual play though it is still to early to decide weather or not one damage type is better yet and i have faith that no matter what if there is issues when 2.5 goes live you will work to make sure it goes well and as planned or bring it back to the drawing board if it doesn't.

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

That means "most of the game UNPLAYABLE" isn't true.

Mid-game is where the wall will be, when impact becomes annoying and slash can no longer push enough damage. I want to sonicor something now though with all this talk of ragdolling.

 

1 minute ago, xXHobbitXx said:

thats 1 big assumption that you cant make as you cant test it, like i said wait til it comes out before you dismiss everything as horrible or unplayable, they are attemtping to make things better but you lot only see "nerf" on slash lmao, seriously calm down stop over reacting and wait and see how it plays out

And impact good sir! The point is, sortie level things need to die, or you need to be invisible or invulnerable. This just takes away weapon choice and warframe choice. I mean don't get me wrong Galatine prime and atterax need to be... adjusted but they certainly don't need to be buffed while all other melee weapons are nerfed. The last time things were "made better" it was a joke. Still trying to fix their version of "better". The problem is they're rushing this and the numbers/statements are showing a massive hindrance.They asked for feedback, we're obliging. We're voicing our concern, I see a lot of this going badly: Scaling procs means those who don't have the time to grind out prime weapons or jump into something to early get frustrated, possibly quit, etc. This empowers veterans and shoves new players aside. Nerfing slash means you have to push damage through armor that reduces damage taken by 99.9999%(might be exaggerating a little), making so only weapons with 35% or higher of their base damage as slash are doing the same/better damage limits play styles, again shoving players aside whom don't want to spin to win, or use a particular gun. Causing rag dolling from impact, which a lot of guns have a high amount of, can ruin play style and limit fun or cause trolling, which would make people quit. The suggested nerf is bad, because we do have to push a lot of damage, I'm fine with that, I just wish there were more weapons on par with Atterax, galatine prime so there could be even more variety, or that impact and puncture could do enough to keep up with slash. Which is why I suggested a completely different set of changes. Their are too many problems with this, slash nerf is bad, impact nerf is bad... Yes rag doll for impact is a nerf, and well puncture still hasn't improved but that still leaves this as 2 out of 3 nerfd. Sure new players might be fine but there will be a wall, somewhere at some point there will be a spot where it is a far harder grind than it used to be. I think slash should be left as it is, until the problem of armor scaling is "fixed", and impact should definately NOT do rag dolling where it will just force me to focus harder on shooting something than I already need to.

[Maugre]

Why don't we just think of impact/puncture as supplements to slash instead of NEEDING to be on the same level? It'd be cool if you could choose to build for a pure proc or a mix of them for different results that, in the end, still make the enemy die. A better stagger (not some silly knockdown) for impact and armor reduction/damage amplify for puncture would only help slash do it's work, or you could go pure impact if you want to stunlock, pure puncture for team support on heavier units, or pure slash to be like we all are right now. They don't need to be all as effective at killing as one another, just like not all Warframes are. They DO need to work together though towards the end goal.

[--F--NerevarCM]

2 minutes ago, RunicZeus said:

Then please tell us how you will make Puncture and Impact as good as slash without nerfing it. Because right now Slash is pretty much insta kill.

In my opinion. Puncture can multiply dmg given after a proc has occurred. At least it's better than "reducing enemy dmg" because like you said slash is insta kil.

The dmg multiplied depends on the damage of the puncture of the weapon and increases with every stack.

The impact shouldn't be a ragdoll and a stagger that is increased in duration depending on the amount of impact and is refreshed on procs.

I've already posted in this forum post why ragdoll impact is bad. Also fixing the problem shouldn't be nerfing slash but buffing impact and puncture because there is NOTHING WRONG with slash because enemy scaling is stupid.

If slash was affected by armor it would take forever to kill enemies and the stupid CP squads will return hurting build diversity more that is now.

TL:DR your idea changes nothing, because doesn't matter how you change Impact and Puncture, Slash will always be better.

"Puncture can multiply dmg given after a proc has occurred." Doesn't matter, Slash doesn't need this to melt the enemy. While you multiply your damage, Slash already killed the guy.

 

"I've already posted in this forum post why ragdoll impact is bad. Also fixing the problem shouldn't be nerfing slash but buffing impact and puncture because there is NOTHING WRONG with slash because enemy scaling is stupid."

Change nothing again. Because with of without better scaling, slash would still be better and the only one used.

 

 

 

[--F--NerevarCM]

4 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

Mid-game is where the wall will be, when impact becomes annoying and slash can no longer push enough damage. I want to sonicor something now though with all this talk of ragdolling.

You mean the mid-game where Puncture + Corrosive melts Grineer, Toxic and Magnetic destroys Corpus and Slash alone just shredds infested?

Really "unplayable"...

[sunfanel]

So basically:

-right now slash damage is the only way to (pardon me) cut through high level mobs as slash damage is the only one that goes through the ridiculous amount of DR that endgame mobs get from armor

-when the change hits, non-slash weapons will be even less viable than before as slash procs will still be the only procs worth having except now they scale with slash damage instead of physical damage, the puncture procs will be just as irrelevant as they are now, and impact will be actually undesirable because having enemies close is usually better than having them far away from you.

Not only that, but the weapons that relied on slash procs without having slash damage will now be totally worthless.

 

It's been years since I've felt the sensation that developers have absolutely no @(*()$ clue of what game they are developing for. I feel a bit of nostalgia actually, it's been since the WoW TBC era when Blizzard was nerfing mages that were already underpowered while buffing warlocks that were already overpowered.

[InDueTime-EN-]

6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted

How would this affect  Hunter Munitions?

[Cipher-Fox]

This is just another reason players should have access to a public Dev server/build prior to release so that things like this can be tested weeks/months in advance of it being implemented in the public build so feedback can be given based on the actual content and gameplay.

[RunicZeus]

15 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

TL:DR your idea changes nothing, because doesn't matter how you change Impact and Puncture, Slash will always be better.

"Puncture can multiply dmg given after a proc has occurred." Doesn't matter, Slash doesn't need this to melt the enemy. While you multiply your damage, Slash already killed the guy.

 

"I've already posted in this forum post why ragdoll impact is bad. Also fixing the problem shouldn't be nerfing slash but buffing impact and puncture because there is NOTHING WRONG with slash because enemy scaling is stupid."

Change nothing again. Because with of without better scaling, slash would still be better and the only one used.

 

First of all that was my idea that I gave because you asked. I'm not someone who happens to work at DE and knows the game mechanics through and through. This was also something I came up with off the cuff

Secondly saying that multiplying damage doesn't matter clearly shows me that you have no idea about its power. Anyone that has played Banshee with sonar can understand how stupidly powerful this can be and can instakill enemy levels you don't usually see even on sorties. Finally, nerfing slash would be terrible cause you would struggle to take on anything above lvl 80+.