[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[o.0-]

I like the changes so far, but I hope that it may still be possible to have Status Effects become independent from Damage (so no longer have a one to one relationship) and that Status would depend more on the affect Health types.

So Status effects that would reduce Armor would be available against Armored Enemies, Status effects that would weaken Shields would be available against Shields, Status effects, like Bleed, that would affect base enemy health would be available against humanoid enemies.

Effects like Confusion and Weaken could then be available on headshots against humanoids, Stagger and Ragdoll could work along the lines of punchthrough in how different enemies would have different densities, with some resisting such effects better than others.

For example, Grineer are said to rock a carbon steel type of armor and use Ferrite and an Alloy one is standard and one more advanced. Watching videos on youtube on striking steel plates I got wondering why can't there be certain status effects tied to certain health types?

So I take my AkMagnus with Thermite Warheads in the bullets, and start firing on a Grineer soldier using his standard Armor, I can get chances to roll, (the RNG is on hitting the target in different areas, one shot might glance off the plate, another might dig in a thigh, a third the Shields were overloaded and sharpnel gets through):

• Critical (Fatal damage that kills target)
• Armor Failure (Corrode proc, Shattering Impact mod are two examples on two ways to do them).
• Penetration (Punch-though, and yes idea is having this be incorporated into Status)
• Stagger, Knockback
• Ignite from the Warhead
• Major Trauma (basically Bleed proc)
• Weaken - Confusion (scaling best on Headshots)

2nd example, I take my AkMagnus with mods that gives me Weaken and Toxin procs against Corpus

• Critical
• Disrupt
• Toxin
• Weaken
• Penetration
• Major Trauma
• Stagger, Knockback
• Weaken - Confusion

3rd, I take my Boar Prime with Blast damage against infested

• Pressure Wave (Gibs and knocks down enemies)
• Stagger, Knockback
• Major Trauma
• Penetration
• Weaken - Confusion

As for how I envision how mods could be tweaked some, they could add to Damage dealt by the weapon, but could instead primarily grant Status Effects and increase the chance to proc them.

Ideas on Status proc'ing Mods, that add or increase procs:

• Knockback: Hammer Shot / Full Contact / Pummel / Collision Force
• Weaken/Confusion: Wildfire / Blaze / Concussion Rounds / Buzz Kill / Shell Shock?
• Major Trauma (Bleed): Serration / Point Blank (Primed) / Maim / Heavy Trauma (Primed)
• Freeze: Cryo Rounds (Primed) / Frigid Blast / Rime Rounds / Glacial Edge
• Chain Lightning: High Voltage Warhead / Charged Shell / Convulsion / Shocking Touch
• Ignite: Thermite Rounds / Incendiary Coat / Scorch / Molten Impact
• Poison: Infected Clip / [Caustic Shells] / Pathogen Rounds / Poisonous Sting
• Pressure Wave (Blast): Hellfire Munitions / Thunderbolt / Accelerated Blast / Heated Charge / Concealed Explosives / Volcanic Strike
• Armor Failure: Piercing Hit / Shredder / Sawtooth Clip (moved from Primaries) / Shattering Impact
• Poison Cloud: Malignant Force / Toxic Barrage / [Blistering Agent] / Virulent Scourge
• Disrupt: Stormbringer Munitions / Disruptor / Jolt / Voltaic Strike
• Virus: [Contact Transmission] / Contagious Spread / Pistol Pestilence / Fever Strike (Primed)
• Punch-Through: Metal Auger / Flechette / Razor Shot / Sundering Strike

Weapon Mods:

• Reduces Spread and Recoil: Rifle Aptitude / Shotgun Savvy / Sure Shot
• Increases damage, recoil, spread: Heavy Caliber / Vicious Spread / Magnum Force / Spoiled Strike
• Reduces spread and recoil when mobile: Crash Course
• Increases the chance to Stun a target, to open them to Finishers: Pressure Point (Primed)

Thanks for reading and happy holidays.

[Blacque]

Impact at higher tiers needs to stun, daze, paralyze, or maybe at best cause a hard crumble effect with the ragdoll happening only on the death strike, with a remnant of their corpse being left behind for loot mark allocation imo.  Impact is the one thing I'm particularly concerned about.  Also I'm kind of leery of the puncture damage nerf since going toe to toe with a powerfist, or cleaver is... at any level a joke for a player over mastery rank 10.

 

Still I'm hopeful since slash isn't getting the uber nerf.  Bringing everything up a notch is always the best way to go.  So with that said great job in the direction DE.   Just please please mind the meta.

[Chipputer]

Puncture should go up to 90% damage reduction, in all honesty. 75% of a one shot often still results in a one shot. 90% too, but it would still be better. That or allow it to both reduce damage dealt while increasing damage taken. Plenty of other games have statuses that do this and I don't see why it would hurt Warframe to allow a status like that to exist. Reduces damage dealt by a percentage and increases damage taken by half of that percentage (IE 50% damage dealt reduction, 25% damage taken increase).

Impact dealing progressively harder staggers is perfectly fine. Not sure why everyone is complaining. Outside of the meta-bubble you run into people using things that knock enemies over all the time. They're not saying impact is going to cause Sonicor-level ragdolls and anyone basing this on the devstream obviously missed the part where the super-ragdolls weren't intentional.

Slash being based on slash makes sense, with the way the damage system works, and I'm fine with it. Make sure that you allow built-in procs (stances, hunter munitions, etc) to have a different calculation, however. Maybe it could be based on Slash and then, if no slash, base it on the highest base damage the weapon has. This way elemental/no-slash weapons will still have some way to make use of forced slash procs without it just being another proc to add Condition Overload damage and nothing else.

 

I'll reserve full judgment until I see it in action. I'm tired of the slash meta, even if I take part in it, and I'd like my puncture and impact weapons to have more viability than a small damage reduction and a very, very slight knockback that I can get with almost any melee weapon, anyway, without actually causing the proc.

[xXHobbitXx]

22 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

Mid-game is where the wall will be, when impact becomes annoying and slash can no longer push enough damage. I want to sonicor something now though with all this talk of ragdolling.

 

And impact good sir! The point is, sortie level things need to die, or you need to be invisible or invulnerable. This just takes away weapon choice and warframe choice. I mean don't get me wrong Galatine prime and atterax need to be... adjusted but they certainly don't need to be buffed while all other melee weapons are nerfed. The last time things were "made better" it was a joke. Still trying to fix their version of "better". The problem is they're rushing this and the numbers/statements are showing a massive hindrance.They asked for feedback, we're obliging. We're voicing our concern, I see a lot of this going badly: Scaling procs means those who don't have the time to grind out prime weapons or jump into something to early get frustrated, possibly quit, etc. This empowers veterans and shoves new players aside. Nerfing slash means you have to push damage through armor that reduces damage taken by 99.9999%(might be exaggerating a little), making so only weapons with 35% or higher of their base damage as slash are doing the same/better damage limits play styles, again shoving players aside whom don't want to spin to win, or use a particular gun. Causing rag dolling from impact, which a lot of guns have a high amount of, can ruin play style and limit fun or cause trolling, which would make people quit. The suggested nerf is bad, because we do have to push a lot of damage, I'm fine with that, I just wish there were more weapons on par with Atterax, galatine prime so there could be even more variety, or that impact and puncture could do enough to keep up with slash. Which is why I suggested a completely different set of changes. Their are too many problems with this, slash nerf is bad, impact nerf is bad... Yes rag doll for impact is a nerf, and well puncture still hasn't improved but that still leaves this as 2 out of 3 nerfd. Sure new players might be fine but there will be a wall, somewhere at some point there will be a spot where it is a far harder grind than it used to be. I think slash should be left as it is, until the problem of armor scaling is "fixed", and impact should definately NOT do rag dolling where it will just force me to focus harder on shooting something than I already need to.

your statements about sorties say it all lol, NEED to be invisible or invulnerable lmao, stop quoting me, all ive said is your making big deal about nothing as it is, calm down, stop exaggerating and wait and see, you can use any weapon and any warframe for any current game content, if you cant thats your gameplay that is lacking not the frames or weapons

[alepap1995]

What i would like for damage 2.5/3.0 to be is:

Physical procs scaling off the percentage of the status type on weapon.

Slash: damage over time, ignores armor.
Puncture: basically the physical equivalent of corossive(doesn't stack with corossive and makes sence because you're making holes in the armor)
Impact: knockback/knockdown and damage reduction.(makes more sence on impact than puncture)

Also:

Buff single elemental types like heat, cold, toxin and electricity.
Could be done by allowing you to stack 2 cryo rounds for example on the same weapon IF you don't already have a dual element on that weapon.
also by complementing dual stat mods, for example maybe adding cold on top of viral would do more damage or make the viral a bit stronger.

[KunoUshinawa]

3 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

TL:DR your idea changes nothing, because doesn't matter how you change Impact and Puncture, Slash will always be better.

Make puncture have a 35% chance to insta-kill.... I mean hell. Short of that you can only make impact and puncture do something more useful than what they currently do.
 

 

2 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

You mean the mid-game where Puncture + Corrosive melts Grineer, Toxic and Magnetic destroys Corpus and Slash alone just shredds infested?

Really "unplayable"...

So at Jupiter you have a decent status chance weapon with all the 60% 60% elemental mods? I don't believe that. And yes I used the word Unplayable earlier, I meant after a point it'll be a slog not worth the effort. Don't get me wrong Mirage + Arca Plasmor couldn't care less about slash procs (along with several other combos)... but you have to get those first, and rank them. Also you bring up that word a lot, which it is literally that word that you're arguing. The game needs slash where it's at to keep it... somewhat balanced, a hard shift to just a handful of melee weapons is kind of crappy, on top of that it means those people that do endurance runs on live stream to help raise money for charity get a much harder go of it.
 

Odd, I just had a thought... How would the proposed slash nerf affect Equinox?

[DawnFalcon]

6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

<stuff>

Idea - the old 30% proc chance mods? The ones which in damage 1.0 were stun *chance*?

Make them proc-*amplification* mods. Not chance, but effect. Say x2? (You're losing a damage mod for them...but possibly will be able to focus more on a single proc...)

[Crimson_S]

45 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

 

Remember in damage 1.0 when everyone only used armor ignore weapons because it could kill high lvl enemies and bosses regardless of level?

Thats why Damage 2.0 exists.

Armor Ignore would make everyone forget slash and impact and only use Puncture.

While slash takes a second to kill a enemy, puncture + high damage weapon would be insta-kill.

Just shift the problem from slash to puncture and fix nothing.

I'm not saying full on armor ignore, like partial like 10% or something scaling up to 25 ish?.

[--F--NerevarCM]

16 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

So at Jupiter you have a decent status chance weapon with all the 60% 60% elemental mods? I don't believe that.

Oh God... In Jupiter, only using the weakness of the enemies against elements and physical damage is enough to just kill them easily.

You don't need a decent status weapon for that.

 

A newbie with a Paris with corrosive using Stormbringer and Infected Clip can do massive damage to Grineer in Ceres or even Uranus.

A Vulkar, MR0 weapon have enough impact damage and status to melt Corpus easily in Jupiter.

 

Grakata is MR0 you know. Its is the most built weapon ever in the game. 25% crit, 20% status.

Magnus is MR0 too. 20% crit, 20% status. A Impact weapon built for magnetic is enough to pretty much destroy any Corpus in Jupiter.

Or you don't know this weapons? Or any easily built MR0 weapon.

Did you played the game or just power leveled through everything?

[--F--NerevarCM]

6 minutes ago, Crimson_S said:

I'm not saying full on armor ignore, like partial like 10% or something scaling up to 25 ish?.

And how that would fix anything. Slash ignores 100%. Its not as broken as Damage 1.0 because it deals damage per tick.

[KunoUshinawa]

1 minute ago, xXHobbitXx said:

stop quoting me, all ive said is your making big deal about nothing as it is, calm down, stop exaggerating and wait and see, you can use any weapon and any warframe for any current game content, if you cant thats your gameplay that is lacking not the frames or weapons

The point is if a lot of weapons can get forced slash procs suddenly can't it gets annoying, yes lots of redoing setups to suit the new style, but how many hours were put into gathering resources, building the weapons, warframe, getting the mods, endo, credits, forma, potato. That can be a lot of investment just gone. I mean when they nerfed the simulor and tonkor we got a potato for each and a forma for each, are we going to get that for all the weapons this will nerf? The concern and annoyance is well placed, I only have 20 melee weapons in the game left to get and rank. Many of which I use in different setups for different mission types. I'm not much for the atterax, I hate galatine prime, and I don't much use guandao which, off the top of my head, are the only melee weapons getting a buff from this. That leaves a lot of wasted forma, and time.
And sorry if quoting you bugs you but you telling me to wait to see how it works when numbers show me it's not good, is kind of dumb, why would I wait for someone to do something stupid before speaking up? I wouldn't I would try to prevent the problem. I would rather DE dropped a better version of damage 2.5 and have far less complaints and problems than drop a half-assed attempt and sit back and go "Well balls, guess I'm going to sit here wait for a fix." And again they did ask for input. I promise after this I won't quote you... Unless you say something incredible.

[Shivenis]

Puncture should either let the enemies receive more damage or bypass a %  of armor depending on the damage (A puncture sniper should be able to ignore armor for example) and then it would become useful against armored enemies (What slash will still do better after rework)

[Nordenfelt_]

It have been said before, I will repeat it with my fellow Tenno until you DEvs will understand it.

There is no point in knockdown or weakening an enemy with your gun, this must be just an mere sideeffect. This game all about killing, so let us kill. Don't try to fix what isn't broken, or do it properly.

For example, what real guns do with armored targets? If round have special structure and armor penetration properties, guess what it does? It penetrates the armor if it weak enough for this exact type of round.

Do you know why warhammers and maces was a thing in late medieval warfare? Yes, of course you can stun or knockdown someone with these things. But also, you can not only penetrate the armor, you can do serious damage by using armor itself, by bludgeoning the armor plates right into a flesh of your opponent.

Hollow point rounds and sharp blades? Not so good against armored targets, but if you get unarmored one, these to things can kill or critically injure this target almost instantly. 

Why you always have to create a bicycle? All these things was done in videogames before you, why you have to bring some kind of space magic here? Hell, things was right with Damage 1.0 - certain guns and bladed sticks was doing certain type of damage with addition of some crazy alien technology what allows to make electrocuting or poisoning rounds. This was perfectly fine. And now I have to figure out how you can possibly can make a blast reaction, combining cryo-rounds and incendiary rounds. 

All you have to do - is just stick to direct damaging properties and only after that on side effects. Make Puncture to actually penetrate armor, not destroy it entirely like Corrosive procs. Make Impact to do less effective armor removing proc, but compensate it with your beloved knockdowns and ragdolls, and also add opening for melee finishers if proc is strong enough. Let slash be, because it still not that powerful at very high levels, but is does its job as everything else at levels what you force us to play against.

I know, balancing things is hard. But you can't balance everything in the world for one bite. This is still beta, right? We are unpaid testers, willing to help to make this game a perfect masterpiece. Let us do it. Make experimental changes, ignore the whiners, and listen to actual feedback. You've done some beautiful things together, just working with community. Why won't you to continue this good tradition? 

[Vaporoxgaming]

Disappointing.  Was hoping DE was finally learning how to properly bring in new additions to the game with all these new weapons and this wave of really solid frames, then they randomly smack one of those new frames and its fans in the face, and then this.  One step forward, two backward.

[Callback-EN]

this sounds like a nerf to impact since now I have to go chase my target thus increasing TTK. Puncture applying a debuff is still mostly useless since the enemy is still alive after I shot them and staying alive is never my problem so the debuff doesn't really help. In fact the only use case I can think of for the new puncture is piercing roar on rhino but at that point you might as well just use his 4. As far as slash is concerned it's a nerf but its still the best option I have among IPS for high level content since it gives me a good way to tackle the ridiculous armor scaling.

The problem here is that these are procs coming from a weapon which is our primary method to kill enemies, them applying crowd control affects/debuffs is little more than a gimmick when we have a nice variety of frames that do a better job over a wide area opposed to the single target nature of most weapons.

Actually the more I think on puncture the less sense it makes since to get value out of the proc you would shoot one enemy but leave them alive while engaging another with a different weapon, this sounds really clunky to me and I see no reason to use it. (I could keep shooting the same target but we then run into the problem of puncture does nothing to increase damage so I might as well just go slash)

[LE-FERMIER-LY]

i start to think to delete the game now all the time and plat spent in rivens and they destroy everything

[Haif]

I don't want to ragdoll the entire world with impact or drop enemy damage with puncture.

I WANT IMPACTED ENEMIES DEAD AT MY FEET AND PUNCTURED ENEMY DAMAGE TO CEASE EXISTING DUE TO THEM NOT BREATHING.

 

"Death is the best cc"

It's the reason why impact and puncture were garbage to begin with.

[KunoUshinawa]

5 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

A Vulkar, MR0 weapon have enough impact damage and status to melt Corpus easily in Jupiter.

 

Grakata is MR0 you know. Its is the most built weapon ever in the game. 25% crit, 20% status.

Magnus is MR0 too. 20% crit, 20% status. A Impact weapon built for magnetic is enough to pretty much destroy any Corpus in Jupiter.

Or you don't know this weapons? Or any easily built MR0 weapon.

Did you played the game or just power leveled through everything?

Kek, I actually only just recently built and ranked everything you listed. And no I don't have those weapons memorized, ranked them and tossed them. This actually made me chuckle. The Vulkar would be op on Jupiter.

[(PSN)WolfSaints94]

https://youtu.be/cm_LR832f60 Mogamu has some good ideas 

[Khlamydia]

6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

"Slash works the same as it ever did", stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

Okay here's the lie that you are selling us, but reworded to stop trying to hide the fact that you are destroying slash procs with a nerf that will wreck about 85% of the current endgame weapon builds in Warframe.

"Tenno,

We decided to cut out all the damage calculation that actually made slash work in the first place and base it only on the weapons base damage instead of modded damage, also as if that wasn't terrible enough we then doubled down and decided to only calculate slash proc damage based on the SLASH part of your weapons output. No longer will it calculate based on elemental damage, total physical damage, or proc damage which actually scaled up to the numbers needed and required to fight anything high level.

Or to put it more precisely, We arbitrarily decided to take away the one thing that actually functioned against our infinitely scaling armor system, because we were sad that no one else used the other damage types that didn't work at all. We again failed to address the infinitely scaling armor system because why would we ever want to address that? We also decided to deceive you in the post about it hoping you wouldn't notice with flowery language like "Slash works the same as it ever did".

Happy Holidays Tenno!

Please enjoy your mandatory nerf."

[Giantconch]

The changes to IPS look... bad.

 

Put this off to 2018 and rethink please.

 

I'd go into more detail but after reading just the first 5 pages pretty much everything I could say has been said.

[(PSN)NatK98]

My opinion on the physical damage reworks:

Slash is still king.

That doesn't mean nerf slash (like I see people saying here on the forums), it means that people prefer to kill enemies over just stunning them.

The puncture proc is honestly really bad from an end game players view. An enemy that does 10,000 damage per shot (a level 180 nox for example) will still absolutely destroy anything it shoots, even with the 75% damage reduction. Therefore making it useless for end game players.

The impact proc honesty sounds more irritating than it does useful, like I said, people prefer to kill things than to stagger. I can already imagine impact against a low level 50. Knocking them around, most likely extending the time to kill - useless.
 

I'm glad the determination to make the other physical damage types better is there, but I have the feeling that the person working on this is TOO scared of making all 3 damage types equally as powerful. I get it, you want them all to have different utilities, but here we have the same kind of situation as the starting frames - 1 is significantly more powerful. People want the thing they're shooting at to die, and as quickly as possible. These changes don't accomplish anything imo.

Here's a question: Are you against having more than one effect per proc? For axample, you could let puncture keep the 75% damage reduction, but add the ability for it to shatter pieces of the enemies' armor dealing a high amount of damage per piece.

[(PSN)StickingPage]

I don't think I like the idea of Impact ramping up to ragdolling enemies. Blast knockdowns are fine because they at least fall where they were, making it easy to continue doing damage and taking advantage of the proc, same with Impact staggers. With ragdoll however if enemies are flying all over then it could become annoying/tedious to track and damage priority targets, especially with projectile weapons like the bow or tetra, or run after them if you are using primarily your melee. Hard to say for sure without knowing how much the ragdoll is.

[tyranosaurus]

Since slash still seems better than both others with this rework, how about giving an impact a flat bonus damage on proc and give it only a stagger effect that prolongs on further applications instead of ragdoll? As for puncture, nothing comes to mind atm, but maybe as suggested earlier, make it a "punch-through" on proc and/or perhaps reduce target's armor? Currently, the only thing that makes slash so good is all that damage, it's not a CC problem, it's a damage from proc.

[Hanayama_San]

After thinking about it for a bit this is what i would like to see

 

IMPACT: Good vs Shields like it is right now, it's Status "Concussive Shots", they charge up over 5 procs to a full "Concussion" proc wich reduces enemy aim and triggers the ability of friendly fire so a bombard rocket may end up in his onw teammates and not in our face.

PUNCTURE: Good vs Armor like it is right now, it's Status "Shatter", after procing status in the same area, lets say the shoulder, the armor there gets shatterd and more damage is inflicted in this area since the armor on that spot is gone.

SLASH: Good vs Flesh like it is right now, it's Status "Bleed" make 1 single bleed proc weaker but make many stack up since more open wound would cause you to bleed out faster

Make all of these scale from the total dps of the weapon in question and we are good to go.

i understand that with this slash would still be calles "op" buuut. with this, you open more ways for weapons to be used, Puncture is open to gas builds since you reduce the armor of enemys. Impact procs would be appreciated since it would let to enemys killing each other without turning on each other and Slash needs to be stacked on the big dudes and still just murder little schmucko enemys.

 

so long guys