[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[Mofodo]

So impact and puncture get minor buffs, that I'm predicting will not make them any more competitive with current slash, and slash gets nerfed in a lot of circumstances. This won't make it any worse for slash weapons that already dominate the scene - Tigris, Galatine, Atterax. They're already almost entirely slash damage, so doing bleed damage based on that might even make them stronger. The weapons that suffer are almost any weapon that uses the new Hunter Munitions mod, any melee weapon they relies on guaranteed procs such as the Jat Kusar or rapiers and any weapon that's not more than 35% slash damage. Of course I'm referring strictly to the damage potential of the weapons, which is the most important property to most people. 

I fear with these changes, the weapon choice of players actually trying to play "competitively" will become incredibly polarized. Due to the nature of armor scaling, if you're fighting high leveled enemies, you need a solution to the armor. Most players bring Corrosive Projection, but a better solution to most people is just ignore it with slash. After these changes, the number of weapons that can reliably inflict slash damage will be reduced. Impact and puncture provide decent utility, but that's not nearly enough to compete with outright killing enemies.

[MosAnted]

2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

You do realize this is a *massive* nerf to Hunter Munitions and several stances?

[Melos-mevim]

so basically now impact weapons are going to become an inconvenience to use because they'll rag doll things across a map, puncture remains useless, slash remains the only one worth using and weapons that have an even amount of damage distribution like sybaris prime and mios get shafted by their procs becoming a lot weaker over all

[MarikBentusi]

Not sure that I'm gonna appreciate Impact ragdolling enemies. On weapons that rely on precision or ammo efficiency, a ragdolling enemy can be more of a downside (or at least an annoyance) than an upside.

For instance, if I need to doubletap a Bombard with the Vulkar from your example, I would appreciate the old Impact proc much more than the new one.

Unlike with Elemental Procs, we don't have much control over IPS damage types and IPS damage type distribution when it comes to modding our weapons. So an Impact-based weapon could be doomed permanently if new Impact does turn out to be more hindrance than help.

[BIueKnight]

27 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

ALRIGHTY THEN!!!

If this statement is true:

Then this one is a lie

So which is it? As it is right now when hunter munitions procs slash while I'm using my Arca plasmor the tics deal 9,631.44 slash dmg, with this suggested change the Arca plasmor would deal a total of... let's see 100% of 0 is... oh right NOTHING.
Well let's look at some weapons and see the difference:

Weapon     Slash tic now     slash tic after change
Atterax:             15.75                40.5
AkstilletoP         13.3                  10.8
GalatineP          57.75              158.8
Rakta Cer         43.75                12.5
Baza                  5.6                    3.5
Opticor              350                   50
aklex P              52.5                  15
Vectis P             113.75             46.7
Lenz                  241.5                0
Ignis Wraith       8.75                  0
Guandao           31.5                63
Zenith                52.5                15
Supra Vandal    15.75               6.7
Tenora                 8.05              4.6

The reason there are so many primaries is because of Hunter Munitions which, after the suggested change, will be worth less than the effort it took to get it. To pretend this isn't a massive all-around nerf is rather ballsy.

So screw the newbs is what you're saying... Because they have high damage weapons right?

AOE is Crowd control, single target stagger/knock down affords us nothing. In this game we are SWARMED by enemies who deal COMPRABLE damage to what we do. It sounds like you're trying to describe Blast procs but you're just using the wrong word. Until Impact can AOE knockdown don't bother acting like this is a buff. Constantly knocking down a single target forces me to re-aim costing me valuable damage that could be killing the target faster.

My sister taught me a valuable saying: Never swing first, but if you have to swing make sure they never get back up.
Unless I'm pairing infinite Puncture procs with a bless Trinity this is not diminishing the threat. Killing an enemy reduces its damage output by 100%

Proposed changes:

All status procs have a length of 7 seconds.

Impact: All impact damage ignores shields, but not proto-shields. Impact procs slow enemy movement by 5% per proc up to a max of 65%, no scaling with damage amount, each proc refreshes the duration, This make enemies easier to kill AND reduces the damage they deal immediately, also makes impact viable damage against grineer.

Puncture: All puncture damage ignores armor, but not shields/proto-shields. Puncture procs make "holes" in armor, holes aren't actual holes that you have to aim at, these "holes" decrease the reduction to other damage types by 5% per proc up to a total of 55%. Doesn't scale with damage amount. Each proc refreshes the duration. This makes puncture AS USEFUL AS CORROSIVE against armored units.

Slash: DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!! THE PROPOSED CHANGE NERFS ALMOST EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME AND WILL CHANGE NOTHING ABOUT ATTERAX SPIN TO WIN OR GALATINE PRIME SPIN TO WIN BUILDS DOMINATING MELEE.

The current problem is that puncture and impact are worthless, buffing what they already do doesn't make them better. You need a drastic change in the behavior of these two damage types to make them worth the mod points/endo/credits/forma/potatoes we put into our weapons. AND with the changes I've stated above Khora can be a straight out dps warframe with slash, or she can be a support warframe AND still have dps with impact/puncture.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT DO WHAT YOU'VE PROPOSED.

+1 ,+1... Upvote this ^^ to the stars!! this is the idea i've seen on this topic yet!

20 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Has DE offered you a job yet? You clearly have their same flawed logic and have missed the big picture.

The reason slash builds are so popular is because armor scaling is so asinine that slash procs are literally the only 1 out of the 3 that can deal with this nonsense. 

 

Brozime's vid here shows us this at work here

Have you ever thought, that maybe if the armor scaling was reworked to be resonable we wouldnt have to all flock to slash builds to circumvent it?

But then again, time after time DE has shown us they are deathly allergic to logical decisions.

^^ This is very very true. While DE has stated that going past Level 100s is a bad idea as the game isn't built for that. DE, don't punish people for find ways to have fun on your game past its "stable point"...

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Finally! My beloved puncture and impact gets to shine!

[Clem2-TheClemening]

The proportion of damage types of weapons already affects how often they proc. Having the proportion of damage effect the strength of the proc on top of that is going to make average proc effectiveness scale with the proportion squared.

A slash proc deals a total of 2.45x a weapons base damage over it's duration. Now, with a 50% slash weapon, this is equivalent to about 1.225x the base damage on average. With this rework, it will be 0.6125x of the base damage on average. A weapon with 25% slash will go from 0.6125x to 0.15325x, and a 10% slash weapon will go from 0.245x to 0.0245x.

Of course, this will also affect non-damage effects. What's wrong with the average proc effectiveness scaling with the damage proportion linearly?

[.-KG-..-JaJeKa-.]

I want an downvote icon...

Only thing that they had to do is work on impact and puncture...

+and again DE knows more what players want as themselves...

I am also scared of this update.

[AdunSaveMe]

Impact shouldn't knock enemies down. That's just going to be extremely annoying.

Increase the duration of stagger, don't knock enemies all around the place.

[SunsetChaos]

Quote

Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control. Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator? Immobilize priority targets by unloading your Akstillettos, giving you more time to address the threat. Overwhelmed by an army of MOAs? Level entire rooms with something like a Strun!

Puncture can be used to minimize enemy lethality for frames with less survivability. Using high status puncture melees like Boltace or Endura, go blow-for-blow with Butchers and Powerfists without breaking a sweat. And if your Lex Prime can’t oneshot the Heavy Gunner rumbling towards your defense point, the enemy’s damage will be diminished long enough to safely deal the finishing blow.

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

Slash makes sense but leave outside sources of bleed procs alone! Stances and Hunter Munitions. Do not nerf them. Hunter Munitions introduced a new way to mod a crit weapon, an alternative, which is GOOD for modding. Modding should be more like this.

Puncture doesn't make sense. Make it bypass % of the enemy armor! Maybe breaks eventually. Or at least weaken armor, wait that sounds like corrosive but then again elemental is getting changed later.

The problem with Impact has ALWAYS been because it sucks for damage, especially to armor and flesh. Shields? Who cares about shields, armor is the endgame meta. Now it still sucks for damage, maybe worse for crit weapons because headshots are gonna be a problem. If this means ragdolling, wtf so now impact is more utility and even less damage now? I'd rather they just stun, imagine the typical stun with stars around their head leaving them standing in a daze, easy headshots.

[Czin]

Are IPS and procs in general going to skew towards the damage type with the most prevalence? Are we "very likely" to deal a Puncture proc if our weapons Total damage is 80% puncture?

Slash Procs will stack in damage after the first is still applied, and given that its duration is not refreshed, will the total damage by the end of the proc still be the combined total of slash procs dealt since the original proc started ticking?

 

[zacRupnow]

2 hours ago, Naftal said:

Yep, I hope DE realizes that if they want IPS to be on about the same level, slash needs a pretty big nerf.

First, Slash does not need a nerf - Impact and Puncture needed new proc effects and scaling. Second, this is a Massive Slash nerf.

[Skelethin]

As mentioned by several people in this thread, the 'buffs' to impact/puncture are more side grades than buffs.

Impact, while having an upgrading from slight stagger to a ragdoll effect, is a good cc effect, it also makes the enemies harder to kill. You can't keep on target for headshots, and can knock them into cover, or make you think you killed something thats going to get up in 2 seconds and keep going. The problem with upgrading this in any way to things like a longer stagger or outright stun is you are quickly running over cold proc effects. Stagger > Stun seems like the better path than stagger > slight rag doll > orbital launch rag doll that the change is currently looking to be.

Puncture runs into the problem that the proc does literally nothing to do with why you might want puncture damage to begin with. The proc is set to lower damage done up ~75% reduction. Which is fine and good, but not how anyone cares. No one tries to get puncture procs to try and take less damage. The only time people care about inflicting a puncture proc is for Condition Overload when its just more damage. And Puncture damage is supposed to be good against armor, which doesn't mesh with the proc. It should do things like increase damage taken, like its ripping holes in armor. Since we have Corrosive for actual armor stripping, it can easily be either a 'ignore Damage Reduction by X%' or 'takes X% more damage from all sources', both of which allow it to stack with Corrosive, and make it an effect that people would be actively wanting.

Which I think is the biggest issue with this update, they are trying to fix things by giving us things no one cares about, instead of taking a worthless point and turn it into something we want. Make the proc something we would actively seek to have, rather than something that we might think isn't totally worthless.

And the ragdolling actually concerns me because of how many times I have had to 're-kill' enemies from similar effects already. There isn't enough to let us know they are dead in an instant glance to make it even more common.

[Nyaa314]

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator?

Maybe you buff excavator HP to scale with mission level already instead?

[KunoUshinawa]

4 minutes ago, NaturalBornStoned said:

I am also scared of this update.

We all are, if their proposed changes go through then I for one am leaving and never coming back. only a hand full of melee weapons will be useful and almost no secondary/primaries will be worth using.

[Czin]

With the many opinions on these new IPS rules, may I propose that despite the status chance of a weapon also include a way for more than 1 proc per instance of damage? We already have a damage dealiing IPS, that is Slash. If we had in addition to slash a chance to proc puncture/impact, it would help cc AND deal damage. Likewise, if we have plenty of cc we could use some damage to help thin the enemies ranks.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Impact procs should additionally open up for finishers, while puncture procs should ignore up to 75% of armor and shields and have innate, stacking punch through

[Callback]

DE, can you address one MAJOR issue before going through with this?

 

This system works for weapon status%-based RNG procs.

 

It does NOT work for mod , weapon, or power-based FORCED procs.

 

Forced procs need to have a fixed scaling.  For example, Arca Plasmor has a guaranteed impact proc, despite having only radiation damage.  The force of this impact proc needs to be fixed at a flat value like it is currently.  Likewise for impact and slash procs caused by weapon stances and mods like Hunter Munitions.  These forced slash procs need to use a flat % scaling from the weapon's base damage.  They won't scale to larger percentages like RNG slash procs do, but they will remain viable even on weapons that lack innate slash damage.  Rapiers in particular rely on this scaling to be viable.  They are all almost entirely  puncture  based but make heavy use of Vulpine Mask's guaranteed slash procs to dish out damage.

 

And speaking of rapiers, make sure that slash remains as it currently does with multiple separate instanced stacks instead of amping the magnitude of one master bleed tick.  Relentless Combination tends to rely on this interaction of a large number of small bleeds to rack up the combo counter and hit the big multipliers.

[Amazerath]

Some questions and points:

• "An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them."

How do you determine what is "small damage" and what is "high damage"? How will I know what kind of effect I'll get when I'm modding my weapon on the arsenal screen? Is it going to be trial and error or is the UI going to give us that kind of information?

 

• "Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted."

For enemies as well?

 

• "Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control."

Guys, I hope you understand that crowd control is only really good if it works against crowds. And that is exactly what Blast damage does. So unless you're planning on changing/nerfing Blast, Impact will continue to be a really bad option.

 

• "Puncture can be used to minimize enemy lethality for frames with less survivability."

Similar to Impact, making a single enemy less powerful is not really that useful. If I'm going to focus fire on a single enemy then I want that enemy dead, not weakened. Which means I'll pick something like Slash or simply run away instead of engaging that enemy.

 

• "Any edge case things that feel like massive nerfs should be civilly listed so we can address."

What about the Slash builds made using Hunter Munitions on weapons that deal no Slash damage or very little Slash damage? You mentioned Slash procs will now scale with Slash damage, so I assuming all those builds are going to break?

 

Closing comments:

I think working on physical and elemental damage separately is a mistake. Khora is just one warframe and her addition doesn't justify making rushed reviews on such an important system. From what I've seen here these changes are not enough to allow Impact or Puncture damage to compete with Slash or any of the popular elemental damage types. It might be enough to make people want to use Impact and Puncture on Khora. But looking at the big picture I don't think this will improve the game.

My suggestion is that you hold off these changes until 2018 so that you can look at physical and elemental damage as a whole.

[Czin]

I liked the suggestion for Puncture procs to effectively go through armour, both Alloy and Ferrite. It would be a burst in dps puncture weapons with either a high rof or very high Status% to be actually good vs "armoured targets".

[3thereal]

I understand you're working on a proc warframe so you guys are seeing the issues with the IPS procs. However, the REAL reason people are using Slash Procs are because: 1. It does DAMAGE 2. Armor scaling is BROKEN . Impact Procs are going to be blast procs 2.0 (How popular is Blast Procs?) and Puncture procs which reduce enemy damage is nice but how much damage does a DEAD Grinner do? (Maths: the answer is 0) 

Can you guys focus on fixing armor scaling first? Maybe cap it out at 75% DR? How about you have Impact break armor like the Shattering Impact mod scaled to damage along with the stun/knockdown changes? 

[warp_cat]

RIP 
 

Спойлер

 

[Gendalph]

Maybe it's time to bring up last years Nidus release and the ongoing controversy surrounding Hema research costs?

It took devs about 2 weeks to react but then we got an excuse on the level of "We want to show respect to people who farmed the mutagen samples to research Hema" and on to "it's raining in the Derelict", which is still being brought up regularly to this day on reddit.

Please, don't rush release of Damage 2.5, it might end up as Hema did and neither we, nor you want that.

[Einsig_SV]

This is nothing short of a direct nerf to every weapon that isn't heavily slash based or that has no slash damage. Weapons which currently rely on Hunter Munitions to be viable or melee weapons that use forced slash proc from melee stances are now useless.

In turn, you've only buffed super high slash weapons like the Atterax even more. The gap in effectiveness between slash and non-slash weapons only widens.

Puncture is still an irrelevant damage type with this change. Puncture cannot deal with armor. Puncture is supposed to be the damage type that counters armor, but as armor keeps going up it stops having any effectiveness so we move to relying on corrosive, viral and slash to deal with those enemies. I don't want puncture to give me a bad CC effect. I want it to kill armored enemies. If I want damage reduction, I will take an Impact weapon and prevent my enemies from shooting me at all.

[Kurambik]

@[DE]Connor @[DE]Steve Will the calculations be made public before the release? Speaking for myself for example, as a mathematician I may be able to provide feedback on some possible kinks and unintended nerfs that may seep through unintentionally.

Also, how will this effect weapons like the Lacera that only have base electricity damage yet can proc slash using certain combos of the stance?

Wouldn't having a hard ragdoll also be counter-productive for something like a Vulkar and it's nice headshot bonus if the enemies are flying about the place? Maybe shift the IPS distribution on weapons like where it is inconvenient (like the mentioned Vulkar)

A comment on the proc effect scaling, wouldn't it be better to scale similar to how the gas procs scale now? As an average (or weighted average) of the amount of said damage type and the total damage. I say this so a weapon that has all IPS types will be able to benefit somewhat equally and remove the ''too much of this particular proc is a liability'' problem.