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[DE]Connor

[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

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DE, can you address one MAJOR issue before going through with this?

 

This system works for weapon status%-based RNG procs.

 

It does NOT work for mod , weapon, or power-based FORCED procs.

 

Forced procs need to have a fixed scaling.  For example, Arca Plasmor has a guaranteed impact proc, despite having only radiation damage.  The force of this impact proc needs to be fixed at a flat value like it is currently.  Likewise for impact and slash procs caused by weapon stances and mods like Hunter Munitions.  These forced slash procs need to use a flat % scaling from the weapon's base damage.  They won't scale to larger percentages like RNG slash procs do, but they will remain viable even on weapons that lack innate slash damage.  Rapiers in particular rely on this scaling to be viable.  They are all almost entirely  puncture  based but make heavy use of Vulpine Mask's guaranteed slash procs to dish out damage.

 

And speaking of rapiers, make sure that slash remains as it currently does with multiple separate instanced stacks instead of amping the magnitude of one master bleed tick.  Relentless Combination tends to rely on this interaction of a large number of small bleeds to rack up the combo counter and hit the big multipliers.

Edited by Callback
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Some questions and points:

  • "An Impact proc with a small damage output (like a single Akstilletto bullet) will still only cause a short stagger, while an Impact proc with high damage output (like a Vulkar shot) can scale all the way up to a ragdoll, temporarily immobilizing them."

How do you determine what is "small damage" and what is "high damage"? How will I know what kind of effect I'll get when I'm modding my weapon on the arsenal screen? Is it going to be trial and error or is the UI going to give us that kind of information?

 

  • "Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted."

For enemies as well?

 

  • "Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control."

Guys, I hope you understand that crowd control is only really good if it works against crowds. And that is exactly what Blast damage does. So unless you're planning on changing/nerfing Blast, Impact will continue to be a really bad option.

 

  • "Puncture can be used to minimize enemy lethality for frames with less survivability."

Similar to Impact, making a single enemy less powerful is not really that useful. If I'm going to focus fire on a single enemy then I want that enemy dead, not weakened. Which means I'll pick something like Slash or simply run away instead of engaging that enemy.

 

  • "Any edge case things that feel like massive nerfs should be civilly listed so we can address."

What about the Slash builds made using Hunter Munitions on weapons that deal no Slash damage or very little Slash damage? You mentioned Slash procs will now scale with Slash damage, so I assuming all those builds are going to break?

 

Closing comments:

I think working on physical and elemental damage separately is a mistake. Khora is just one warframe and her addition doesn't justify making rushed reviews on such an important system. From what I've seen here these changes are not enough to allow Impact or Puncture damage to compete with Slash or any of the popular elemental damage types. It might be enough to make people want to use Impact and Puncture on Khora. But looking at the big picture I don't think this will improve the game.

My suggestion is that you hold off these changes until 2018 so that you can look at physical and elemental damage as a whole.

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I liked the suggestion for Puncture procs to effectively go through armour, both Alloy and Ferrite. It would be a burst in dps puncture weapons with either a high rof or very high Status% to be actually good vs "armoured targets".

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I understand you're working on a proc warframe so you guys are seeing the issues with the IPS procs. However, the REAL reason people are using Slash Procs are because: 1. It does DAMAGE 2. Armor scaling is BROKEN . Impact Procs are going to be blast procs 2.0 (How popular is Blast Procs?) and Puncture procs which reduce enemy damage is nice but how much damage does a DEAD Grinner do? (Maths: the answer is 0) 

Can you guys focus on fixing armor scaling first? Maybe cap it out at 75% DR? How about you have Impact break armor like the Shattering Impact mod scaled to damage along with the stun/knockdown changes? 

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Maybe it's time to bring up last years Nidus release and the ongoing controversy surrounding Hema research costs?

It took devs about 2 weeks to react but then we got an excuse on the level of "We want to show respect to people who farmed the mutagen samples to research Hema" and on to "it's raining in the Derelict", which is still being brought up regularly to this day on reddit.

Please, don't rush release of Damage 2.5, it might end up as Hema did and neither we, nor you want that.

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This is nothing short of a direct nerf to every weapon that isn't heavily slash based or that has no slash damage. Weapons which currently rely on Hunter Munitions to be viable or melee weapons that use forced slash proc from melee stances are now useless.

In turn, you've only buffed super high slash weapons like the Atterax even more. The gap in effectiveness between slash and non-slash weapons only widens.

Puncture is still an irrelevant damage type with this change. Puncture cannot deal with armor. Puncture is supposed to be the damage type that counters armor, but as armor keeps going up it stops having any effectiveness so we move to relying on corrosive, viral and slash to deal with those enemies. I don't want puncture to give me a bad CC effect. I want it to kill armored enemies. If I want damage reduction, I will take an Impact weapon and prevent my enemies from shooting me at all.

Edited by Ion_Sig
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@[DE]Connor @[DE]Steve Will the calculations be made public before the release? Speaking for myself for example, as a mathematician I may be able to provide feedback on some possible kinks and unintended nerfs that may seep through unintentionally.

Also, how will this effect weapons like the Lacera that only have base electricity damage yet can proc slash using certain combos of the stance?

Wouldn't having a hard ragdoll also be counter-productive for something like a Vulkar and it's nice headshot bonus if the enemies are flying about the place? Maybe shift the IPS distribution on weapons like where it is inconvenient (like the mentioned Vulkar)

A comment on the proc effect scaling, wouldn't it be better to scale similar to how the gas procs scale now? As an average (or weighted average) of the amount of said damage type and the total damage. I say this so a weapon that has all IPS types will be able to benefit somewhat equally and remove the ''too much of this particular proc is a liability'' problem.

Edited by Kurambik
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Honestly? Slash is fine the way it is, but if you REALLY need to change it, low the intensity and fix the duration around the % of slash dmg a weapon has. Weapon has 10% slash dmg, 70% imp, 20% punt (For example) You do a 1 second slash proc. For every 10% of a weapons dmg is slash, make that the duration. Don't nerf the dmg of it. (Or remove it all together)

 

But I love the idea of elemental, or dual elemental being worked on. And I'd love to see something along the lines of how Gas' dmg is currently calc'd, based off the weapons toxin dmg. I'd love to see Virals effect spread, and spread in a wider area the more cold dmg put into the combo, or be more intense, the more toxin put into the combo.

 

Or blast have a bigger area the more fire, and more intensity the more cold was put into it. Cold can start slowing enemy's more, and more, and more until they're frozen entirely. Heat can start spreading in small explosions around the target the more you proc it on it. and Electric can start arcing off the target the more you proc. There are a tonne of different ways I can see you guys heading with this, and I'm eager to see the changes. Though I hope its for the better.

 

All being said and done, I do LOVE the idea of barraging a grinner with constant impact procs, slowly walking up to them with them being firmly glue'd to the ground from the constant bullet hail.

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Leave ragdoll stuff to sonicor. Make impact scale from enemy accuracy loss to temporary weapon drop on ground, to open up to finishers.

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Please do NOT ragdoll. in some cases you would still need to hunt them down and kill them and it SERIOUSLY messes up time to kill when you want consistent headshots.

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3 hours ago, Naftal said:

Yep, I hope DE realizes that if they want IPS to be on about the same level, slash needs a pretty big nerf.

That is awful idea. All you will achieve is people completely ditching physical procs in favor of elemental procs. You won't create more more variety that way. You will completely kill it in favor of two or three elemental damage types.

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46 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Has DE offered you a job yet? You clearly have their same flawed logic and have missed the big picture.

The reason slash builds are so popular is because armor scaling is so asinine that slash procs are literally the only 1 out of the 3 that can deal with this nonsense. 

 

Brozime's vid here shows us this at work here

Have you ever thought, that maybe if the armor scaling was reworked to be resonable we wouldnt have to all flock to slash builds to circumvent it?

But then again, time after time DE has shown us they are deathly allergic to logical decisions.

I know that armor scaling should be reworked and have a pretty good idea how it should be done.

This thread however is about the changes to IPS procs they're going to do.

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Personally, I think if a frame is dramatically lacking in survivability compared to other frames, that's a problem with the meta for how frames take damage. Putting DR on an enemy with puncture is fine, but it doesn't help when shields/armor can be bypassed. It hurts the player experience for incoming damage to work the same way as outgoing, especially when some enemies do DOT toxin damage just from being nearby. It also invalidates any work on shield and health gates being done. I think a consistent player experience is more important than making a damage system apply to everything.

I would prefer puncture procs create weak points in enemy defense, where a % of the weapon damage is dealt as true damage. That way, puncture can deal more burst damage than slash, but slash status would deal more total damage over time. For multiple impact procs, I would prefer enemies be put into a dizzy state than knocked down. When using that Akstiletto, it's more beneficial to leave the enemy standing for headshots than to ragdoll them.

Edited by Neightrix
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" before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted"

 

DE cant help but nerf good things....

 

"Slash will continue working as it does now, stacking multiple status effects on top of one another. "

 

lies, all lies

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Like @Uzkostsaid the changes to Slash status procs would be bad for ALL weapons that do Elemental Damage/No Slash Damage only and can use Hunter Munitions. That would be Lenz, Arca Plasmor, and Amprex among others. I am all for buffing Impact and Puncture but please don't nerf Slash in the processes; doing so is unnecessary. Slash procs are in no way game breaking because they are based off the damage your weapon does. If you get insane Slash procs then it's because your damage extremely high. If Slash procs scaled off of Slash damage instead of total damage then every weapon would see a damage nerf. Tigris Prime wouldn't suffer as much as Opticor, yeah. And Opticor would suffer as much as Synapse. But they would all see a loss in the amount of damage they do with Slash procs. Hunter Munitions gave a lot of lesser used weapons some new life. I have a lot of fun using Amprex with Hunter Munitions. These changes to how Slash procs work would ruin the wonderful change of pace Hunter Munitions brought. If anything Slash heavy weapons would become even more meta because of another point I want to discuss...

...which is the ability for enemies to damage you. Any Mesa main will tell you that as awesome as 95% damage reduction is, enemies will still hurt you and even 1 shot you at level 180 plus. Only the diminishing return of Armor can really stop 1 shots at that level. So the best way to keep enemies from hurting you for a ton of damage is either CC or kill them. Impact seems to do the first where are weapons with this change will provide the CC to keep enemies from shooting us. Slash does the latter where it helps kill things faster and continue to do damage even when we are taking cover. I am sure a lot of players would much rather see Puncture give a debuff on enemies that increases damage we do to them, rather than decreasing the damage they do to us. Even if Punture Procs capped at 75% increased damage to enemies it would work great with other procs. Think about it; stack a bunch of Puncture procs onto an Corrupted heavy Gunner, then hit them with a Toxic proc. Those Toxin tics would do 75% more. Or a Fire proc. Those FIre tics would do 75% more damage. Even simply shooting a enemy affected by Puncture would allow you to 75% more damage on crit or head shot or even body shot. Puncture is supposed 'pierce' right? So how does a piercing affect translate to enemies shoot you softer?

People like Slash because it kills things faster. If you want to make Puncture as useful, it should at the least help the player Kill things faster.

As for Impact, I can see the merits. I like the Jat Kittag because launching enemies into space is fun, and if enemies fall off the map, you essentially one shot them dead. But I can see how a lot of people would find it annoying that any follow up shot from Rubico would have to be aimed 50 meter to the left because the Impact proc sent them flying that way. I would just suggest that any Ragdoll effects would happen on death or when enemies have less than 5% HP. I would also suggest that enemies should take damage when they collide with walls or from high falls so when they ARE ragdolled, at least they take some damage because of it. I think Impact would be more desirable if when you max out the Impact procs on an enemy they drop their weapon and have to recover it.

It would take a lot of thought to make Impact as much of a desired option as Slash but Puncture can be as desirable as Slash if you would just change it so that Puncture increased damage done to enemies instead of damage done by enemies.

Lastly, would like to ask PLEASE don't nerf Slash Procs by making its damage based off of Slash damage on the weapon.

Edited by (PS4)DBR87
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I'd rather have Impact procs trigger a weapon jam effect like Mesa's Shattering Shield instead of knockdown. Instead of ragdoll the enemy should be opened up for a finisher. This would be much more useful for killing high armor/damage targets than throwing them around.

 

Puncture lowering enemy damage just doesn't make sense from the start. High level corpus techs are still going to shred most frames even with 75% less damage (teased on the dev stream as 90%). If its going to compete with slash ignoring armor, then puncture needs to also ignore/remove armor.

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curious to play with the new system, although i am, as many on this forum, a bit doubtful of the utilility of impact. wouldn't it be better if instead of ragdolling at high damage it would open to finishers?

love your work and i dont want to judge before i play with it instead of studying for my uni exams

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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash has long been considered the most powerful of these effects, primarily because Slash procs stack on top of one another and scale with weapon damage, while both Puncture and Impact procs could only have their flat effects refreshed.

That's not accurate.  

Slash is considered the most powerful because it's the most effective at dealing with enemies (because kills enemies through armor).
For example, certain weapons, such as the Bo, already stunlock a target. However, they don't usually particularly kill them. So you're trading ammo and/or self-disable to disable an individual enemy.
Or at best, to disable a line of enemies, up to punchthrough rate.

But Warframe tiles are varyingly wide open, and the only choke points you have are if you're sitting in the sewers a dead-end and letting enemies come to you. Which is only viable in 1 game mode: Survival.

 

So here you are, shutting down a single Heavy Gunner heading towards your defense target with your Impact-skewed Akstilletos. Great!
But another's heading in from a different route, your ammo's running out faster than your target's health, and you've got 3 shots left before you need to reload! What to do?!
That's right, you switch to a weapon that can actually kill the Heavy Gunner, or use a warframe ability to CC the HG.
 

Warframe's gone for (enemy) quantity over quality for these last ~3 years.
One repercussion of this is that shutting down individual enemies is not a viable strategy.
 

And if Impact, which can completely shut down an enemy for 2-6 seconds is ineffective despite being level agnostic, how effective will Puncture's level-dependent damage reduction be? Either you're fighting enemies who aren't dangerous enough for it to be needed, or your enemies have so much higher a damage output than your eHP that just locking down a single target (or even a line) won't actually keep you alive.


At the end of the day, at best the game doesn't reward you for not-killed enemies. At worst they're a progression stopper (resources unfarmed, missions uncompletable e.g. surv, ext) and possibly a threat (if you're around for them to shoot at).
In other words, outside of LoR or speedrunning caps or rescues or OG datamass sabotage pure CC is a losing strategy. In the vast majority of the game, CC exists to keep you alive long enough to kill the other guys.

 

tl;dr -
* The less of a threat each enemy is out of the total situation, the less valuable shutting down an individual enemy is.
This is made worse by CC procs being a self-disable (if I'm shooting target X, I'm not doing anything else) and opportunity cost (consumes your limited ammo, reloading is an enforced gap in CC, a gun modded for CC is one less weapon that can kill stuff).
* Outside of LoR, pure CC doesn't let you win, it lets you not-lose. That's the definition of a losing strategy.

tl;dr^2 - 'Dead' is the best status.
Dead enemies are a) no longer a threat, b) the only ones that drop rewards and c) the only ones no longer taking up spawn slots.
As long as dead enemies are the only ones the game rewards you for...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

-----

Now, with that out of the way:
What do these changes mean for forced procs such as stance combos on elemental melees, Hunter Munitions, Rhino's Piercing Roar and probably others I'm not thinking of atm?

Edited by Chroia
Missed a [/]
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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!

 So what you're saying is, you're nerfing Slash weapons that aren't a majority slash (like 70-90% Slash)? So pretty much RIP all Slash weapons excluding Galatine Prime and Atterax? DE you guys can do the right thing, I believe you can. Bump the other two procs up to be on-par with Slash. As a man who has played this game for 2 years, is MR 24, and has supported this game a lot, I do not want to see Slash as king anymore. I'd rather have options. All these changes do is enforce the Slash meta, and flip it on its head so it's only for very few weapons. 
 I've come up with some possible improvements to the other two procs:

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control. Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator? Immobilize priority targets by unloading your Akstillettos, giving you more time to address the threat. Overwhelmed by an army of MOAs? Level entire rooms with something like a Strun!

Instead of Impact being some unreliable form of CC, perhaps make heavy-Impact weapons like the Fragor Prime, or the Arca Titron also give a slow to the procs. For instance, say you whack a Corpus Tech with a hammer, he falls over, he gets back up. The Impact proc proposal here would slow that enemy down by, let's say at least 30%, for around 5-7 seconds. That'll easily bump Impact up with Slash.

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Puncture can be used to minimize enemy lethality for frames with less survivability. Using high status puncture melees like Boltace or Endura, go blow-for-blow with Butchers and Powerfists without breaking a sweat. And if your Lex Prime can’t oneshot the Heavy Gunner rumbling towards your defense point, the enemy’s damage will be diminished long enough to safely deal the finishing blow.

The proposed changes to Puncture are great, but also kinda lackluster. Perhaps have it degrade armor to some degree, like a mini Corrosive proc? This way for larger armored opponents at, say, Sortie level, if an enemy doesn't go down quickly, you've got slight armor stripping to assist you in dealing that final blow, alongside the reduced damage the enemies deal.

3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash works the same as it ever did, stacking bleed damage over time to make short work of enemies. Your 100% status Tigris Prime will still eviscerate single targets with multiple procs, while something like a Galatine will still inflict more serious singular procs in a wider area - ‘tis but a scratch.

Slash is perfectly fine as it is, but I want to address the meta once again. As a veteran player, I personally feel very limited when it comes to procs to kill enemies at high level, thus resulting in me having to use Slash based weaponry. By no means am I suggesting a nerf to Slash, or even a buff, what I am suggesting is that the other two Procs be brought up to the same level as Slash. 

It pains me to an incredibly high degree to see where you guys are taking this game. You've nerfed 2 frames that had no reason to be nerfed, you've killed the Sonicor AGAIN, you've refused to put in Univac for several years, you've refused to give frames the help they truly need (Hydroid), and NOW you're killing the procs? The future of this game is very worrying, because with changes like this, I don't see Warframe lasting a 5th year. Please, I beg of you, hear the fans out and do the right thing. Put aside the selfish things like not wanting Univac, and not wanting to actually rework frames properly, and give the majority, the fans, the consumers, what we want out of the game.

 

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Seems like this is just a massive nerf to Slash in many situations and some minor buffs to the other two. I support the changes to Impact and Puncture but I say keep Slash as it is as to not ruin many staple builds and make some even stronger then they currently are. I understand your trying to make things more fair as to make the other status types more appealing but buffing the most overused meta weapons better with a slash change and hurting all the weapons with less slash damage isn't the way to go about it. I hope you reconsider and don't go through with all your plans and have a nice day.

 

Sincerely: Zweimander

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Proc power scaling only from its damage pool is a terrible idea. 1st, it kills Hunters Munitions. 2nd it kills Rapiers, 3rd it kills Blade and Whips. Make it based on the damage pool +25% of the damage from other pools.

8 minutes ago, -Mittens- said:

 So what you're saying is, you're nerfing Slash weapons that aren't a majority slash (like 70-90% Slash)? So pretty much RIP all Slash weapons excluding Galatine Prime and Atterax? DE you guys can do the right thing,

Exacly my point. And the saddest thing is - you cannot add slash to weapons that dont have it or even buff it properly when its marginal.

A good buff would be to also make phisical damage mods to scale from total base damage and add phisical damage to weapon that dont have it. 2nd buff would be to get 3 sets of dual damage status mods for phisical damage.

Edited by Xardis
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I'm on the PS4, so hopefully the IPS update wouldn't affect me this year anyhow, but I highly recommend that you guys DON'T push out the IPS update before 2018.

I understand you want to revamp the damage types for Khora's release, but please just ship Khora before the IPS changes like how you guys shipped Harrow before the shield gating/shields changes. 

It seems like these proposed changes will do more harm than good, because as a lot of people have pointed out, armor scaling is still the main issue here. I've seen a lot of great suggestions in this thread and on reddit about how Impact and Puncture could be much more useful than the current proposals, so please carefully consider them.

My favorite ones that I've seen are:

  • Puncture weakening armor values so that enemy armor has damage mitigation.
  • Impact gimping enemies so that they move slower.
  • Slash working as it currently does.

But again, the core issue with damage in the game really comes down to armor scaling. It's the reason why people run Corrosive Projection and not Shield Disruption. It's the same reason why we still bring corrosive damage to high level Corpus maps. It's also why there's so many weapons that aren't viable at higher levels, and why Hunter Munitions actually made some of those weapons more viable.

If anything, please look into balancing armor scaling first, then adjust the IPS and elements. If you release these IPS changes before 2018, a lot of players are going to be really unhappy because it'll be an overall net loss to our gameplay and it will take until January until any reversions or fixes can be done.

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