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Improving the New Player Experience


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2 hours ago, DKCasus said:

That really tells me all I need to know about how differently we perceive the concept of getting new players and spreading the word about Warframe to help its future.

I don't want new players because I want to play with them. I have friends for that. I want new players because it translates directly to more money for DE to develop the game perpetually.

As I said in my OP - my suggestion is exclusively about being more inviting to new players and NOT veteran players who, ideally, shouldn't even notice these changes.

Oh they have the money.  If not directly from the players and end-users, they also have it from the sponsorship from their "parent" company.  I think that the problem is that they don't have the manpower necessary for such expansion.  They're a small company and have a tight group of programmers.  While this is good on one side of the game's existence, it can be a hindrance in the part where they can dedicate their time exclusively to the expanding universe that they're creating.  

It's not a bad thing -- per se -- but it does make it slow in the expansion.  While I sometimes don't appear to have the patience for some of the change they often implement, I do try to work on it to the best of my ability.

The problem is that we veterans do see those changes.  Because we often adore our god-builds and will see those god-builds changed in ways we're not prepared to deal with.  Couple this with homo sapiens inherent dislike to change and when we encounter it -- we often drag our heels in resistance.  And some of we veterans have very long memories. 

2 hours ago, DKCasus said:

But thank you for your other comments - most of which I very much disagree with, including it not being a progression game and being easy to experiment with for new players with no easy access to gear.

Welcome.  Come look for me in game...  I suspect that @CapnToaster and @LuckyCharm are onto something I might have missed, which might need a different perspective for both you and me.  Especially if it's based on materials amassed... 

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1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

I would like the ability to try things out before i buy or craft them. But only in the simulacrum or shop. Being able to get lowbie items etc while an interesting idea is not particularly helpful since even a "lesser opticor" is still going to be a lot better than the mk1 paris or braton they'd start with, take up no weapon slot, and will remain that way until they get their bratons a lot higher. 

All that needs to change is we need more info given in the form of tooltips. Eg what damage types do, what status chance means for the weapon types etc. If stats are moused over even a simple sentence detailing whats said would be helpful for newbies to make their own informed decisions

I haven't actually tried any other primary than my Paris :)

But the concept is to ensure the weapons are inferior by way of not being able to rank up or contribute to mastery - as well as only have inferior mods. I don't see how that would change anything about players definitely still wanting to craft and buy stuff - because these weapons would be demo weapons at best.

If they're better than the starter bow, then that's perfectly fine - because it's a starter bow. But they wouldn't be, in this case, because they won't rank up - so the player would be holding himself back if he kept using them - knowing he would not be gaining mastery ranks.

Edited by DKCasus
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47 minutes ago, CapnToaster said:

So basically.. you want MK1 Opticor?

I agree with the general sentiment that early game players need more options. The MR overhaul has severely limited the beginner's arsenal. Cut them some slack, DE!

AFAIK, the MK1 weapons all contribute to affinity and can be modded just like all other weapons.

So, no. I want "demo" weapons to:

1. Allow players to experiment with weapons and playstyles BEFORE starting to gather/grind mats in earnest towards the proper versions.Give them SOME idea of how the various weapons work so they can get a feel for what they would want to actually work towards - rather than expect them to set a goal "in the dark" without having tried the weapon before doing all the work towards it.

2. Make the early game more satisfying in terms of having weapons drop as loot - so new players can feel like they're being rewarded and, as a result, becoming more addicted instead of leaving the game because they don't understand the depth or complexity of it at that stage.

Edited by DKCasus
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18 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

Welcome.  Come look for me in game...  I suspect that @CapnToaster and @LuckyCharm are onto something I might have missed, which might need a different perspective for both you and me.  Especially if it's based on materials amassed... 

Sure - will look for you :)

I'm going to try and persuade my friends to try the game yet again. I'm absolutely sure it would help if they could get a few inferior weapon drops here and there :)

Then again, they're new players and you don't like those!

Just messing with you. Thanks again for your perspective :)

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Just now, DKCasus said:

Then again, they're new players and you don't like those!

Funny...  I'm actually like Diogenes with his lamp looking for an honest man. 

When it comes to gamers, I look for people that understand it's for fun:  be it casually or hardcore.  And can respect others no matter the perspective.  I've turned a lot of people on to Warframe..  Whether they stick around as long as I have...  well, that remains to be seen.  

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb DKCasus:

inferior weapon drops here and there

"Yay Crap Weapons to fill the Weaponslots".... i hope they don't add this.

New Players allready have a problem with the few Weaponslots they have. An Implementation of your idea would require alot of work not only on the loottables but also on the Inventory System.

So i don't see that happening any time soon, and hopefully never.

Edited by Darkuhn
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7 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

Funny...  I'm actually like Diogenes with his lamp looking for an honest man. 

When it comes to gamers, I look for people that understand it's for fun:  be it casually or hardcore.  And can respect others no matter the perspective.  I've turned a lot of people on to Warframe..  Whether they stick around as long as I have...  well, that remains to be seen.  

We certainly agree that there should be room for everyone. I think I understand where you're coming from.

But you're much more familiar with the game than I am - and you know stuff about it that I won't understand for hundreds of hours. So, we have very different perspectives.

Maybe, eventually, I will come to see it differently. Right now, however, I'm just a new player trying to decide what to play - and since I like thinking about games in general (having played them passionately for decades) - I have a few ideas of how this game might have helped itself appeal to more new players.

That's because I AM a new player right now - so I should have some idea of how the game would have appealed more to ME.

But, as I said in my OP - the more I read and understand about Warframe - the more I think it's pretty damned special. But I can give you my personal guarentee that most new players will NOT do the same kind of research as I have done - and unless they're just really into the action or the art style - chances are they will leave the game because it's simply too.... unusual and too.... opaque.

I understand that's part of the charm - but it does actually retain a large number of traditional features present in other loot-driven progression games. They just re-invented some of it and gave a bunch of them really strange names :)

So, in that way, I think there's room for more traditional elements - including, perhaps, these inferior weapon drops.

Edited by DKCasus
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4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

"Yay Crap Weapons to fill the Weaponslots".... i hope the don't add this.

New Players allready have a problem with the few Weaponslots they have. An Implementation of your idea would require alot of work not only on the loottables but also on the Inventory System.

So i don't see that happening any time soon, and hopefully never.

I specifically mentioned that these "crap weapons" shouldn't take up weapon slots.

I don't see any work necessary for the inventory system - as I don't expect them to make the weapons available during play. That would be neat, but too unrealistic for them to implement.

It would just be a "trash" pile apart from the normal weapon slots reserved for proper weapons.

But... thank you for giving my idea a chance ;)

Edited by DKCasus
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Gerade eben schrieb DKCasus:

I specifically mention that these crap weapons shouldn't take up weapon slots.

I don't see any work necessary for the inventory system - as I don't expect them to make the weapons available during play. That would be neat, but too unrealistic for them to implement.

It would just be a "trash" pile apart from the normal weapon slots reserved for proper weapons.

so enemys drop them in a mission an you can use them till evac? sounds useless to me

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3 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

so enemys drop them in a mission an you can use them till evac? sounds useless to me

No. You pick up the weapons and they appear in your normal arsenal after the mission is done - but they're not taking up any weapon slots. They're just put in a pile which is effectively an array of objects in terms of code speak. From that pile - the player simply picks one to replace his current weapon in whatever slot - so he can test it out during the next mission.

It's trivially easy to implement in terms of code.

Edited by DKCasus
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vor 4 Minuten schrieb DKCasus:

No. You pick up the weapons and they appear in your normal arsenal after the mission is done - but they're not taking up any weapon slots. They're just put in a pile - which is effectively an array of objects in terms of code speak. It's trivially easy to implement.

and this is were the current Inventory system comes into play...

As most of the beginner weapons dosn't require much ressources im still against your idea. Just start building them before you logout and use them the next day after Work/School, or pay Plat to rush the buildtime.

Edited by Darkuhn
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3 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

and this is were the current Inventory system comes into play...

As most of the beginner weapons dosn't require much ressources im still against your idea. Just start building them before you logout and use them the next day after Work/School, or pay Plat to rush the buildtime.

As I said, it's trivial to implement. It would be more or less identical to the already existing code for browsing market items in terms of code - except simpler.

That's ok, though. I would never expect a veteran player to be particularly interested in this new player concept - and I understand you don't think dozens of hours of play is much time for a completely new player trying to decide whether the game is worth his investment.

But thanks for your contribution.

Edited by DKCasus
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Even if the implementation wasn't a problem, it isnt a good idea for Warframe on the long run. Thats because the Weapon Drops from the games you mentioned in your OP are the Mod Drops in warframe.

If your system would be added, it would add weapons, you can't customise and thats the best part of Warframe, you can customise every weapon to fit your playstyle.

I'd rather see a seperate Simulacrum were you could test Weapons/Warframes before building/Buying them.

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7 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Even if the implementation wasn't a problem, it isnt a good idea for Warframe on the long run. Thats because the Weapon Drops from the games you mentioned in your OP are the Mod Drops in warframe.

If your system would be added, it would add weapons, you can't customise and thats the best part of Warframe, you can customise every weapon to fit your playstyle.

I'd rather see a seperate Simulacrum were you could test Weapons/Warframes before building/Buying them.

You can customize these weapons, as I already said. It would just be Common mods - and, as such, an introduction to the system. Effectively a taste or a demo of the weapon.

But I fully accept and understand that you don't want this system in the game. That's ok.

I'm mostly directing this at DE - and if they happen to read it, I can only hope they will consider it and they should certainly reject it if they agree with you.

That said, I would welcome a place to test weapons as you suggest. The only reason I want the same thing in the form of loot drops is to give new players another way to get addicted through instant gratification. Weapon drops is, in my opinion, a fully expected feature of these games. I also consider this a very fun feature in this genre - which DE obviously agree with - to an extent - since they already implemented mod drops.

The problem with mods, however, is that the systems are so opaque - and players have absolutely no way to understand the value of a mod before they start experimenting with more weapons.

Part of the reason games like Division or Diablo are so appealing to new players is that everyone can understand and appreciate a new fancy rifle or sword. That's a lot more interesting than a new mod dropping unless you already understand the systems involved.

The reason I bother to post this here is primarily because I want the game to get more attention - and I want more new players to stick with it. I think being addicted to loot is a pretty effective way to lure new players to do just that.

But it's nothing but a suggestion.

Edited by DKCasus
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vor 15 Minuten schrieb DKCasus:

The problem with mods, however, is that the systems are so opaque - and players have absolutely no way to understand the value of a mod before they start experimenting with more weapons.

I do with you what i do with all New Players i have encountered over the past 5 Years and point you towards the WIKI (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki)

As the game itself lacks good Tutorials.

Also:

vor 7 Stunden schrieb DKCasus:

Gain zero affinity and remain at lowest rank 

this would lead to weapons you can't mod as they would have only Mastery Rank Points to be modded, which would be 1-3 for most new players. so again it would be useless.

As i mentioned above a way to test weapons before you build them would be nice, but for this a seperate instance of the Simulacrum accessable from the Market would be the better option to integrate this into Warframe.

Edited by Darkuhn
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6 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I do with you what i do with all New Players i have encountered over the past 5 Years and point you towards the WIKI (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki)

As the game itself lacks good Tutorials.

Also:

this would lead to weapons you can't mod as they would have only Mastery Rank Points to be modded, which would be 1-3 for most new players. so again it would be useless.

As i mentioned above a way to test weapons before you build them would be nice, but for this a seperate instance of the Simulacrum accessable from the Market would be imo the better option to integrate this into Warframe.

Yes and we all know that a great way of introducing a game to new players and getting them to stay is to point them towards walls of text outside the game ;)

As for mod capacity - obviously they would have to set some kind of viable minimum capacity to make mods meaningful. Just ensure that only Common mods are allowed - so as to not disturb the rest of the economy or appeal of proper weapons. Not that I think mods are necessary at all for the weapon demos to serve their purpose.

But, again, I get you don't like the idea. It's perfectly alright.

I do like your suggestion of the Simulacrum, which I understand has been suggested many times before. It just wouldn't represent the kind of loot drop addiction I'm talking about here.

Edited by DKCasus
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vor 1 Minute schrieb DKCasus:

Yes and we all know that a great way of introducing a game to new players and getting them to stay is to point them towards walls of text outside the game ;)

It worked for the 20 players i introduced to the game :)

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17 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

As i mentioned above a way to test weapons before you build them would be nice, but for this a seperate instance of the Simulacrum accessable from the Market would be the better option to integrate this into Warframe.

Actually this could be a thing, really. They could have an add on to Simulacrum where you can preview any (non prime) weapon for no cost inside Simulacrum. I.e. like the preview you get at amp and zaw manufacturing except you actually get to shoot the gun at simulated enemies.

I mean why not?

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Just now, Datam4ss said:

Actually this could be a thing, really. They could have an add on to Simulacrum where you can preview any (non prime) weapon for no cost inside Simulacrum. I.e. like the preview you get at amp and zaw manufacturing except you actually get to shoot the gun at simulated enemies.

I mean why not?

Beyond that, they should do the same for the Warframes themselves - so players had a decent shot at picking the appropriate "class" for their playstyle.

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There seems to be a fundamental issue that you may be ignoring in this suggestion. Weapon drops work in borderlands because the weapons are randomized and you can get better stuff by having the same weapon drop repeatedly. Similar in Diablo and, from what I've seen, both destiny and the division. That isn't the case here.

That instant gratification you speak of would fall off within a couple of hours, would dilute already weak loot tables, and most importantly is not how Warframe plays. You are comparing this game to others in the genre and trying to make it fit their model when that model was what drove me away from those games in the first place and towards this.

I have no arguments against improving the new player experience and the idea of adding weapon testing to the simulacrum is a great idea, but the core suggestion you made relies on the assumption that players are looking for borderlands or destiny style play. I won't speak for anyone else, but I know I am not here for that and the fact that weapons don't drop from enemies is appreciated. This game forces you to slow down and consider your progression rather than just trying on whatever new toy dropped from the last mission for an hour until you have something new.

Something does need to be done about the new player experience, but I don't believe this is it.

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15 minutes ago, Nerdonis said:

There seems to be a fundamental issue that you may be ignoring in this suggestion. Weapon drops work in borderlands because the weapons are randomized and you can get better stuff by having the same weapon drop repeatedly. Similar in Diablo and, from what I've seen, both destiny and the division. That isn't the case here.

That instant gratification you speak of would fall off within a couple of hours, would dilute already weak loot tables, and most importantly is not how Warframe plays. You are comparing this game to others in the genre and trying to make it fit their model when that model was what drove me away from those games in the first place and towards this.

I have no arguments against improving the new player experience and the idea of adding weapon testing to the simulacrum is a great idea, but the core suggestion you made relies on the assumption that players are looking for borderlands or destiny style play. I won't speak for anyone else, but I know I am not here for that and the fact that weapons don't drop from enemies is appreciated. This game forces you to slow down and consider your progression rather than just trying on whatever new toy dropped from the last mission for an hour until you have something new.

Something does need to be done about the new player experience, but I don't believe this is it.

Not exactly.

Weapon drops don't work just because they're randomized - they work because they grant access to new toys rather than the "same old, same old".

What I'm suggesting would depend on whatever DE decides in terms of the loot table, but I would not want more than 1-2 new weapons to drop on any given mission.

It's simply a way to make the early missions more fun and to implement a way of experimenting with loot before gaining access to proper versions of it. My idea is not about changing Warframe into Division or Diablo. It's to take advantage of some of the appeal of those games - while retaining what's so great about Warframe.

But you bring up a good point. There's no reason DE couldn't implement a somewhat randomized version of any given weapon within the game in terms of stats. Just ensure that the core functionality and intention of the weapon remains intact - and randomize the less important parts - if they want to retain the excitement of these drops indefinitely.

However, even without that - it would be at least a hundred missions before players could expect to have seen all demo versions of the weapons available.

I don't think that's a bad amount of added fun that doesn't - in any way - impede the fun or the economy of the game as it is today :)

That said, I fully appreciate and accept that some people don't think it's fun to be able to experiment with inferior/lesser/demo versions of existing weapons before grinding for the proper version. DE will ultimately have to decide if Warframe is appealing enough to new players without that feature.

Edited by DKCasus
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8 minutes ago, DKCasus said:

But you bring up a good point. There's no reason DE couldn't implement a somewhat randomized version of any given weapon within the game in terms of stats. Just ensure that the core functionality and intention of the weapon remains intact - and randomize the less important parts - if they want to retain the excitement of these drops indefinitely.

There is a very good reason not to do this. The game works because a Soma is a Soma and a hek is a hek. This suggestion underpins the fact that you want this game to function like a game it fundamentally is not. There are plenty of games in the industry where random weapon drops and constant excitement are offered, but this game requires a more methodical grind. That isn't an accident and frankly isn't for everyone, but this suggestion fundamentally does not work in Warframe nor would it change anything for the better

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4 minutes ago, Nerdonis said:

There is a very good reason not to do this. The game works because a Soma is a Soma and a hek is a hek. This suggestion underpins the fact that you want this game to function like a game it fundamentally is not. There are plenty of games in the industry where random weapon drops and constant excitement are offered, but this game requires a more methodical grind. That isn't an accident and frankly isn't for everyone, but this suggestion fundamentally does not work in Warframe nor would it change anything for the better

I understand that you don't like the suggestion and that you think having inferior demo versions of weapons as loot drops would fundamentally break the game or represent some kind of sacrilege.

That's perfectly alright. I don't personally agree at all - and I don't see any kind of argument in your opposition beyond "Warframe isn't the same as other games" which, to me, is a non-argument in itself.

But I recognise your position and thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

Edited by DKCasus
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