ATTENTION [DE]

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

10 minutes ago, Kinetos said:

Impact at its lowest stack is equivalent to 100% damage reduction. Puncture at its *best* stack will be 75%.

Puncture is purely irrelevant as a proc, and there is no way to make it relevant without a completely different mechanic on it than percent reduced outgoing damage. 

I made no mention of slash. 

I won't argue with that logic, yeah it seems puncture still got the raw end of the deal dmg wise. But from what I gather this was to increase the effectiveness of proc's as a mechanics and not just as pure dps systems.

What you guys are complaining about is probably only relevant in 10% of cases, at best. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase will not even notice the dps loss and will probably notice the increase in different status effects more.

Another thing that just popped into my head was this also really only affects solo play. With a squad, you actually have the option of having people bring different weapons which have different proc dmg preference, and like I mentioned, layer proc effects on mobs between all of them. Once again using cooperative tactics this would result in more pronounced proc effects overall, rather than one proc type kills.

Also can anyone tell us the distribution of weapons by dmg type? Unless most weapons are high slash by default this doesn't change any but the most exploitive builds. Once again, setups that are inaccessible or incapable of being used by the AVERAGE player.

[xXFlippyXx]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

"We are also making a change in how a proc’s associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon’s total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted."

That is objectively a nerf to slash's damage on every weapon. With it only not mattering as much on weapons with the vast majority of their damage being slash.
Also known as the weapons that are already fine as is, hurting Impact and Puncture based weapons more than their shoddy procs ever could.

As a side note to other posters, it's fine to not agree with Brozime or not like his personality.
However when quite a few people here call him an idiot, yet don't even counter the points he makes, it is comedically ironic.

 

^

This so much. Seems like most people that defend the new system do this not giving a point at all.

 

The new system sucks. It sucks bigger balls than chasey lane

 

If this goes through I'll still be using my atterax and Tigris while I won't touch most other weapons ever again. Maybe the akstilleto but they proc corrosive like hell. 

[(PSN)MagicaI_Cat]

18 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

I can't stand Brozime's guts because he is always too subjective and only talks from limited point of view and situations. I do believe myself that DE moves in the right direction with the procs.

The dominant proc on the weapon should do more, and the less dominant proc should do less, that is so very correct, otherwise, there is no point in using some weapons over the others, that would have let's say 33% of each proc.

What about weapons that dont have slash. Such as the lenz for example. With hunter munitions it makes it able to do really well.... but because of this “buff” I becomes useless again. I love and enjoy the lenz as all but 1 bow in this game are garbage. That being dread. I can finally make the lenz 1 shot a 145 with help of a riven mod and hunter munitions. So i hope they change that. And if anything its gonna force people to still use the same weapons but heavily rely on rivens instead of using other weapons that could use a buff....

[Kalec]

How many times do people want to link this? It's been posted several times here and on reddit. Stop it. DE knows about their content creators without you posting this stuff over and over

[phoenix1992]

Did you really just did that?

"DE LOOOK AT BROZIME, LOOK AT HIM?!@#!@"

Enough.

Outside of the fact that entertainers that attempt critique rarely shows up well.
Outside of the fact that Brozime was wrong before.
Outside of the fact that he is "reading into" something that was never fully disclosed.
Outside of the fact that he is fear mongering and click baiting for views.

Show me any proof of your own opinion, instead of blowing the e peen of a youtube creator.

PS: I am not approving of the IPS change, but any one of you that can not play without "the OP slash procs" should close reddit.

What do you mean you can't OTK with Arca Plasmor or Lenz? 
 

Edited December 20, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Foefaller]

IMO Hunter Munitions was power creep we didn't need. Nearly all the weapons that people talk about when they point to things that "need" Hunter Munitions to be good are things that were already top-tier weapons in the first place. Lenz is a bit debatable, I admit, but I can't take seriously anyone who says something like the Amprex will be "worthless" or some other negative descriptor because of the change. I know people who would sleep with their Amprex if they could who never felt they struggled with Sorties or Kuva Floods or 40+ minute Axi Survivals because they didn't have Hunter Munitions (I even asked on of them how they felt about this change, and is response was literally, "I've never tried it on my Amprex, how is it?" and he's someone who could make statues with Prime Pillars, he plays that much)

Heck, when Plague Star was up, there was at least a half dozen threads of "Hunter Munitions is INSANE and OP" or something similar. Amusing that it went from that to "critical to the viability of crit primaries" in just over a month.

However, that being said, there are things I agree with on the backlash to the proposed IPS changes:

Ragdolling is bad for Impact, or any physical damage proc, because the prevalence of all three types of IPS on virtually all weapons would make it an unavoidable nuisance whenever it ragdolls anything that you didn't want to ragdoll. A stun in the vein of something like blind or sleep (where they stay upright) would be better, especially if it came with opening up to melee finishers.

Damage reduction that's based on debuffing the enemy, like Puncture, simply doesn't fit in Warframe's meta unless we're talking persistence AoE effects (like Titania debuffing the accuracy of anyone trying to shoot at her after stacking her buffs from 2 or while using her 4); Most things die too fast at almost any level, most things that don't are too dangerous to debuff; they need to be hard CC'd (and nearly all the Frames have some form of hard CC: those that don't are deliberate glass cannons or tanky as heck), and nearly everything that can't be CC'd is immune to status procs as well. Since the first option (kill it as fast as possible) is the best, Puncture should help with that instead; Rather than have it reduce outgoing damage on the enemy, have it increase incoming damage instead; the more you proc it, the more damage they take, on top of things like Corrosive's armor stripping and Banshee's Sonar.

In my view, the biggest concern about the Slash change isn't Hunter Muntions (*snort*) but it's implication with all the stances, weapons and powers that come with status procs while having little or no innate damage of that type. I know most people instantly do to Blade&Whip and Rapier stance with their innate bleed procs, but what about the innate impact procs most stances have as well? Or the impact proc for Arca Plasmor, which is a pure elemental weapon? If elemental types are planned to follow the same idea, there are a lot of Warframe abilities and augments that do things like Radiation procs and do very little damage (if any) of that damage type to go with it (Irradiating Disarm, Vauban's Concuss grenade, Nyx Psychic Bolts) Thinks like that, which are standbys people have been relying on for literally years- those I'm genuinely worried about. While my opinions about armor and armor scaling is a bit... atypical to most people, I'm not blind to the fact that If those innate slash procs don't do something close to what they do now, unless the armor scaling or bleed's ability to completely bypass it changes along, the race for the meta will leave behind a lot of weapons that people use today because of those things.

 

I'm guess what I'm trying to say is, if DE wants people to find all three types of physical damage worthwhile, they should all help reduce TTK in their own way; stunning them to line up the finishing blow, increasing the damage dealt, or dealing DOTs that bypass armor and shields, and do so without ruining everything that gets status procs for damage types they couldn't build for whether they wanted to or not.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Foefaller

[Lakais]

People get so incredibly hung up on the Slash Proc debacle. Here's a thought: maybe it's time to reign in some of these values and systems that clearly go a bit overboard. DE knows the systems in play FAR better then ANYONE else, regardless of Youtube subscribers. 

Honestly, I am sort of wondering why slash procs do damage at all. I was always under the impression that status effects are primarily debuffs to enemy offensive or defensive stats. Essentially making them easier to fight and kill. Not killing them for us. When a status proc becomes your main source of damage, something has gone off the rails. I get why some procs do damage, but mostly it's a poultry amount, more like an afterthought or a bonus. 

At the very damn least, Slash procs should do slash damage, not finisher. That shiz is OP on something so banal. 

EDIT: But as for actual feedback. Puncture needs something more useful then damage reduction. That stat is... weird. The "hotspot" idea is neat but overlaps with frame abilities a bit too much, maybe a proc gives a flat Crit chance/damage bonus on the next shot? And Impact's Ragdol should be replaced with a disarm or something. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Lakais

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

It's a nerf to slash but honestly i welcome it. It doesn't really matter in my opinion. Yes level 100 heavy armored enemies will be hard to kill (Unless you use cp, or corrosive, oh or finishers and finisher damage, or also an armor stripping power). So what? Is this a problem that things get hard? Nevermind the other factions will still go down easy or that sortie 3, raids, and people doing extended survivals is where triple digit mobs even come into play in the 1st place which is like 5 % of the game if i'm being generous.

Frankly i look forward to these changes as a whole and like the idea of ips spread deciding severity of procs. This won't limit anyone who isn't already limiding themselves to a slash meta. So i see no problem.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

oh look, another Youtuber riling up the masses for no good reason.

let's face it, outside of Sorties, Simulacrum and T5 Bounties, we never fight anything above level 70-ish, anything and everything in the game up to this point is effective because it's only after that point Armour scaling starts to go berserk and turns everything into a walking tank. even then, with Corrosive Procs, CP Aura, damage buffing powers like Sonar/Vex armour, Debuff powers like Molecular Prime and powers that CC and entrap enemies into a state of vulnerability like Avalanche and Mass Vitrify, we aren't exactly short on ways to make killing enemies easier. everything can be effective if you invest enough into it, so I highly doubt we'll even really feel it since 99% of enemies we fight on a daily basis are killed easily.

I will admit however that I feel Hunter Munitions should have been left alone: if we're gonna call HM broken, we have to call Maiming Strike broken as well, yet DE have left that mod alone. it was a very nice boost for non-slash weapons that let people bring them to Sorties and other instances where the scaling really takes effect, but I guess that's gone now. we went for years without Hunter Munitions, we can last a few more I guess. I just really liked having a slash Ignis Wraith, as nonsensical as it may seem.

 

[Kalec]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PS4)robotwars7:

oh look, another Youtuber riling up the masses for no good reason.

That is simply not true. Brozime does not rile the masses up in any way. The masses are riling themselfs up because of his video and fanboying over him. So don't make it sound like he is telling people to post his video over and over again, that's just on the those people being blind fanboys.

I don't completely disagree with him but he just overreacts far too often saying things are useless, which some people take like it's a law because he said it

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 minute ago, Kalec said:

That is simply not true

the thumbnail shows a copy of Hunter Munitions in a toilet bowl and he has the word buffs in air quotes. he's clearly trying to send a message; "hunter munitions is dead, this is all a nerf". he wants to rile up people so that they say to their friends "hey look, Brozime made this vid, shish is happening!" the video is passed on to others and he gets more views. views = Subscribers. subscribers = Money.

think about it. if he wasn't riling up the masses it wouldn't have a passive-aggressive thumbnail and would be titled something neutral like "my thoughts on damage 2.5".

[WindigoTG]

11 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

But... It's been like this since damage 2.0 (...years). In other words, EVERYTHING is balanced around it. They have released numerous items, and mechanics taking the fact of how slash worked into account.

Boi, I don't even remember when was the last time I've laughed so hard.

For 3+ years that I'm playing this game, I've never seen a thing that can have term "balanced" applied to it. Nor have I ever seen a thing done with taking anything into account.

 

«-Let's add a Cool Thing into the game!

-Let's!

*some time later*

-Is Cool Thing cool enough already?

-Seems cool to me

-Release!»

That's DE's modus operandi.

 

I'm following the development long enough to tell you for sure, that they have forgotten about how slash works a month after Damage 2.0 release, tops.

And I doubt they would ever remembered it, if their rounabout way to command a pet haven't turned into exploit right in their faces.

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

On 20/12/2017 at 12:32 AM, Sajochi said:

So no, slash is not getting nerfed. Get your facts straight.

It is getting nerfed. Maybe if you actually read the changes, you'd see that slash is now being changed so that it no longer ticks for the total damage of your weapon, only for the slash stat. That is a HUGE nerf to a lot of weapons that are not high in slash and would effectively make the Hunter Munitions mod useless, which is a true shame since that mod has single-handedly brought a lot of non-meta weapons into the spotlight and allowing for more weapon diversity. These changes would only serve to widen the gap between meta and non-meta weapons. It's you who needs to get your facts straight.

Instead of changing slash, DE should just focus solely on making Puncture and Impact better. But unfortunately the only way DE thinks they can make changes is by taking something that's good and making it bad. This nerf wouldn't even really help since the changes they proposed to impact and puncture are still not favourable over slash, so essentially they would be nerfing it for absolutely nothing. It would only drive people back into the meta and further decreasing weapon diversity, which is the exact opposite of what they want.

 

[Helch0rn]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

 

11 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

It is getting nerfed. Maybe if you actually read the changes, you'd see that slash is now being changed so that it no longer ticks for the total damage of your weapon, only for the slash stat. 

they may or may not tweak the numbers of the proc.

currently it's 35% of total damage they may or may not increase that percentage to whatever they see fit but until DE gives us some numbers we can only speculate.

 

ignore the empty quote. my phone is stupid

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

 

they may or may not tweak the numbers of the proc.

currently it's 35% of total damage they may or may not increase that percentage to whatever they see fit but until DE gives us some numbers we can only speculate.

 

ignore the empty quote. my phone is stupid

A better alternative is for them to not touch slash at all and instead just bring the other procs up to it's level. DE seriously need to stop this line of thinking where a buff means taking something that works against the games broken scaling and making it suck, just so others can have a shot (even though it won't actually change anything).

[Mudfam]

6 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

currently it's 35% of total damage they may or may not increase that percentage to whatever they see fit but until DE gives us some numbers we can only speculate.

The problem is that it would only buff the already dominant slash based weapons, while leaving all weapons that aren't primarily slash based in the dirt.

The problem with all of this is armour scaling. You get to a point where only a few select weapons and builds remain effective because they can rapidly strip armour or partially bypass it with slash procs, seriously hurting gear and gameplay variety. I, like many others, don't have any reason to do starchart content anymore, sorties and kuva floods are as of now the only worthwhile content, and let me tell you it gets very boring always running with the same few high proc rate corrosive or slash weapons. Messing around with different builds and weapons is a big part of what makes Warframe enjoyable long term.

I don't think hunter munitions specifically is at all overpowered, it just makes more weapons viable when dealing with those absurd armour values, but it is a bandaid that only solves a smaller part of the problem, the real issue is the scaling which abruptly makes enemies virtually immune to most sources of damage (and not just weapons) creating this very specific meta and repetitive gameplay.

[BornWithTeeth]

22 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

 

they may or may not tweak the numbers of the proc.

currently it's 35% of total damage they may or may not increase that percentage to whatever they see fit but until DE gives us some numbers we can only speculate.

 

ignore the empty quote. my phone is stupid

 

The problem there is that you are pulling out information which doesn’t exist to back up your position.

 

Position A: Slash is getting nerfed. Look, I have a direct quote from the Dev Workshop telling us that they’re drastically reducing the base damage ratio for Slash procs. Says it right there, in black and white.

Position B (You): Yes, but if DE also change the percentage calculation to compensate, then it’s not a nerf. Therefore, we can’t be sure, so therefore it’s not a nerf!

 

 

I get that you’re optimistic, but your position has no data backing it, while people pointing out that it’s a nerf can point at the statement straight from the dev’s mouth saying so.

[Helch0rn]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The problem there is that you are pulling out information which doesn’t exist to back up your position.

 

Position A: Slash is getting nerfed. Look, I have a direct quote from the Dev Workshop telling us that they’re drastically reducing the base damage ratio for Slash procs. Says it right there, in black and white.

Position B (You): Yes, but if DE also change the percentage calculation to compensate, then it’s not a nerf. Therefore, we can’t be sure, so therefore it’s not a nerf!

 

 

I get that you’re optimistic, but your position has no data backing it, while people pointing out that it’s a nerf can point at the statement straight from the dev’s mouth saying so.

where am I optimistic?

I said DE may or may not change the numbers. which (at least to me) means that I do not have enough information to come to a conclusion. On the one hand they said that slash procs will scale off of slash damage only but DE also said that slash will work the same as it ever did, which may or may not mean they will tweak the numbers.

 

Ever since the Saryn rework I try not to jump to conclusions because oh boy was I wrong and my premature hatred for what turned out to be an amazing rework made me feel like an idiot.

 

let's just wait and see how it turns out before we bash the devs

[BornWithTeeth]

15 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

where am I optimistic?

I said DE may or may not change the numbers. which (at least to me) means that I do not have enough information to come to a conclusion. On the one hand they said that slash procs will scale off of slash damage only but DE also said that slash will work the same as it ever did, which may or may not mean they will tweak the numbers.

 

Ever since the Saryn rework I try not to jump to conclusions because oh boy was I wrong and my premature hatred for what turned out to be an amazing rework made me feel like an idiot.

 

let's just wait and see how it turns out before we bash the devs

That is fair.

 

However...the following statement is 100% true, and I would really like it if people could just stop pretending otherwise: “If the presentation of the Dev Workshop is the whole truth, and DE do not in fact plan to rework the calculation of Slash procs back upwards somehow to compensate for the reduced base damage, then Slash Status procs are being nerfed.”

 

That is what’s being pointed out. If DE do intend to reduce the base value of the Slash proc calculation but also increase the percentage of conversion, then that would be great! I look forward to receiving more information.

[---Merchant---]

15 hours ago, Kiwinille said:

All I got from that is that it's basically nerfing hunters munitions because weapons without slash won't proc slash dmg, as it should be? why would weapons with 0 slash proc slash? Also he's using Lenz as an example. Why. Lenz is a crit weapon, not status. You don't build status on it, and you don't care if it procs slash or not. I do have to agree on the impact rework part though. Too much ragdolling around could make it tedious to kill an enemy.

Do you even play this game? 
Hunter munitions scale off crit chance and combined dmg
lenz is crit chance weapon like you said,so hunter munitions is what pushes it in to end-game tier
after this change it will do 0slash dmg with munition on crit,so it will become the "touch only if you carry level 15missions" weapon
and people will use only dread or other slash based bow,where the munitions will still work fine

 

[Vanille]

24 minutes ago, MidoriFuse said:

Do you even play this game? 
Hunter munitions scale off crit chance and combined dmg
lenz is crit chance weapon like you said,so hunter munitions is what pushes it in to end-game tier
after this change it will do 0slash dmg with munition on crit,so it will become the "touch only if you carry level 15missions" weapon
and people will use only dread or other slash based bow,where the munitions will still work fine

 

Still makes no sense that a weapon with 0 slash procs and does damage of a status it doesn't have, and the change makes it so, as it should. Also Lenz not a top tier weapon without hunter munitions? seems like I should be the one asking if you even play this game. I guess doing 300k+ crits are not top tier enough, not to mention Mirage's hall.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Kiwinille

[Kalec]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb (PS4)robotwars7:

the thumbnail shows a copy of Hunter Munitions in a toilet bowl and he has the word buffs in air quotes. he's clearly trying to send a message; "hunter munitions is dead, this is all a nerf". he wants to rile up people so that they say to their friends "hey look, Brozime made this vid, shish is happening!" the video is passed on to others and he gets more views. views = Subscribers. subscribers = Money.

think about it. if he wasn't riling up the masses it wouldn't have a passive-aggressive thumbnail and would be titled something neutral like "my thoughts on damage 2.5".

Well, that is him overreacting like always. He still doesn't tell people to come here post his S#&$. That's on his blind fanboys treating every thing he says like gods word.

He always overreacts and assumes stuff that no one knows, like Hunter Munition here. There could easily be an exception of the slash proc for it in the code which no one knows about. He assumes that won't be the case and the mod will 100% be worthless. He sees stuff black and white, there is barely anything in between with him.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That is what’s being pointed out. If DE do intend to reduce the base value of the Slash proc calculation but also increase the percentage of conversion, then that would be great! I look forward to receiving more information.

It would be great for weapons that have an IPS damage component.  It would still be a massive nerf for stances that force Slash procs on melee weapons (such as the rapier stance, since rapiers are largely Puncture based.)  And it would still mean that Hunter Munitions is completely useless on weapons like the Arca Plasmor, because it has a base IPS damage component of zero.  "Let's see, zero percent of zero is... gimme a moment.  Carry the zero..."

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

It would be great for weapons that have an IPS damage component.  It would still be a massive nerf for stances that force Slash procs on melee weapons (such as the rapier stance, since rapiers are largely Puncture based.)  And it would still mean that Hunter Munitions is completely useless on weapons like the Arca Plasmor, because it has a base IPS damage component of zero.  "Let's see, zero percent of zero is... gimme a moment.  Carry the zero..."

The Arca Plasmor really doesn’t need Hunter Munitions.

 

Munitions is great on sniper rifles though.

[Sajochi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

It is getting nerfed. Maybe if you actually read the changes, you'd see that slash is now being changed so that it no longer ticks for the total damage of your weapon, only for the slash stat. That is a HUGE nerf to a lot of weapons that are not high in slash and would effectively make the Hunter Munitions mod useless, which is a true shame since that mod has single-handedly brought a lot of non-meta weapons into the spotlight and allowing for more weapon diversity. These changes would only serve to widen the gap between meta and non-meta weapons. It's you who needs to get your facts straight.

Instead of changing slash, DE should just focus solely on making Puncture and Impact better. But unfortunately the only way DE thinks they can make changes is by taking something that's good and making it bad. This nerf wouldn't even really help since the changes they proposed to impact and puncture are still not favourable over slash, so essentially they would be nerfing it for absolutely nothing. It would only drive people back into the meta and further decreasing weapon diversity, which is the exact opposite of what they want.

 

Maybe if you actually read my post and the following one, you might have learned a thing or two. Mechanically, slash is not changing. You'll still be able to stack them while ignoring all manner of damage mitigation. What is changing is damage distribution. Which means high slash based weapons will remain mostly the same. Which means now you have to actively invest in slash instead of doing a blanket mod set that works for every situation. There is no mention of what is happening to Hunter's Munitions in the workshop, so anything anyone says about that being garbage or trash is simply pure speculation. 

What I'm commenting on is players like Brozime who jump to conclusions without all the evidence. Who like to get the community worked up over the wrong points and act like their opinion is fact. And you know my real opinion in all of this? Slash needed to be reigned in yesterday. I don't like the proposed effets of impact and puncture. I rather have a system with true trade offs because that makes for a more involved game. Those are my opinions and I'm not tossing them in your face like other players. The facts are in the first paragraph of this response.