ATTENTION [DE]

[EmberStar]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

The Arca Plasmor really doesn’t need Hunter Munitions.

 

Munitions is great on sniper rifles though.

it's an easy example of a weapon that can currently use it to good effect, and that would get nothing from it if the changes work as described.  A better example would probably be the Synapse, or Flux Rifle.  Synapse is an entirely energy based beam weapon with high crit chance and barely any natural Status chance.  Like most beam weapons, it's also basically useless.  Hunter Munitions currently props it back up into "sometimes it actually kills something" territory.

[Helch0rn]

7 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

it's an easy example of a weapon that can currently use it to good effect, and that would get nothing from it if the changes work as described.  A better example would probably be the Synapse, or Flux Rifle.  Synapse is an entirely energy based beam weapon with high crit chance and barely any natural Status chance.  Like most beam weapons, it's also basically useless.  Hunter Munitions currently props it back up into "sometimes it actually kills something" territory.

until DE gives us any information about the effect of the changes on forced slash procs all we can do is speculate.

don't announce the end of the world just yet

[EmberStar]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

until DE gives us any information about the effect of the changes on forced slash procs all we can do is speculate.

don't announce the end of the world just yet

They gave us information about how they intended slash procs to operate.  Why should we assume that they'll somehow code a specific exception for forced slash procs over any other source of slash procs?  Right now, all slash is just slash.  It doesn't need to track how the slash proc was caused, just how much damage its going to do.  I'd assume they'd have to specifically *add* code to track mod/stance procs and treat them differently.  They haven't given us any information hinting that they plan to do that.  Based on the information that DE has directly given us, assuming that slash will be pointless on energy weapons is a completely reasonable conclusion.  Assuming *otherwise* is making unfounded assumptions based on no evidence.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, EmberStar said:

Assuming *otherwise* is making unfounded assumptions based on no evidence.

That is essentially what everyone defending this is doing, though. They’re basically inventing new information which proves that everything is going to be just fine, and then saying that since that information just hasn’t been released yet, we can only speculate.

 

Helchorn, this is why I said that you are being optimistic almost to the point of dishonesty. You are making unfounded assumptions about unreleased information and insisting that it be given equal standing to the information which actually exists and was actually given to us. You still didn’t reply to my other point.

[BornWithTeeth]

41 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

Maybe if you actually read my post and the following one, you might have learned a thing or two. Mechanically, slash is not changing. You'll still be able to stack them while ignoring all manner of damage mitigation. What is changing is damage distribution. Which means high slash based weapons will remain mostly the same. Which means now you have to actively invest in slash instead of doing a blanket mod set that works for every situation. There is no mention of what is happening to Hunter's Munitions in the workshop, so anything anyone says about that being garbage or trash is simply pure speculation. 

What I'm commenting on is players like Brozime who jump to conclusions without all the evidence. Who like to get the community worked up over the wrong points and act like their opinion is fact. And you know my real opinion in all of this? Slash needed to be reigned in yesterday. I don't like the proposed effets of impact and puncture. I rather have a system with true trade offs because that makes for a more involved game. Those are my opinions and I'm not tossing them in your face like other players. The facts are in the first paragraph of this response.

“Slash is not being nerfed, stop saying that!” 

“Mechanically, Slash procs are still going to work, that’s what I meant. A change in damage calculation isn’t a nerf, it’s just a redistribution. A redistribution downwards, ok.”

“Also, it’s good that Slash is being nerfed, I approve of it.”

 

 

Mate. Pick one position and stick with it, because right now you look remarkably incoherent.

 

 

EDIT: That said, as I’ve already noted, I would be completely fine with Slash getting a bit of a nerf if Puncture and Impact were being made genuinely worthwhile. However, that’s not what’s happening. Puncture and Impact are being made much better at doing the same stuff they already did, and thus are remaining pretty much worthless because the Status effects of Impact and Puncture have never had any kind of offensive value. If Impact opened enemies to finishers...if Puncture actually punctured things and thus had an effect against armour...that would be great!

But that’s not what’s happening. Puncture and Impact are retaining their status as rather gimmicky effects of extremely limited tactical value, and (since you don’t like the word nerf) Slash is merely being redistributed downward in how its damage is worked out.

Edited December 21, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Sajochi]

8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

“Slash is not being nerfed, stop saying that!” 

“Mechanically, Slash procs are still going to work, that’s what I meant. A change in damage calculation isn’t a nerf, it’s just a redistribution. A redistribution downwards, ok.”

“Also, it’s good that Slash is being nerfed, I approve of it.”

 

 

Mate. Pick one position and stick with it, because right now you look remarkably incoherent.

My position was made clear. I approve of the change. Don't like another's opinion, then that's fine. You don't need to attack others for having a different one from yours. :P

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Sajochi said:

My position was made clear. I approve of the change. Don't like another's opinion, then that's fine. You don't need to attack others for having a different one from yours. :P

I disapprove of dishonesty and holding multiple positions, switching between them as seems convenient.

[Sajochi]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I disapprove of dishonesty and holding multiple positions, switching between them as seems convenient.

 I've been on one side the whole time. Approval of the change as a whole. There are segments I'm not fond of but they're not big enough to really worry about. Perhaps you have trouble with reading comprehension?

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Sajochi said:

 I've been on one side the whole time. Approval of the change as a whole. There are segments I'm not fond of but they're not big enough to really worry about. Perhaps you have trouble with reading comprehension?

No, I read perfectly well. Among the things which I have read is you first insisting that Slash Status procs have absolutely not been nerfed, and then later saying that you approve of how Slash damage is being reduced and reigned in.

 

Those are two mutually contradictory positions. All I’m doing is calling you out on it. If you had just said from the start that you approved of reducing Slash damage, I wouldn’t have an issue.

[Kurokoz]

They are nerfing slash because weapons with 0 slash damage can do massive damage with slash procs which makes no sense. They are just fixing a problem that a lot of people rely on for some reason. I swear the Damage 2.5 post has caused nothing but pointless arguments and fear mongering.

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

No, I read perfectly well. Among the things which I have read is you first insisting that Slash Status procs have absolutely not been nerfed, and then later saying that you approve of how Slash damage is being reduced and reigned in.

 

Those are two mutually contradictory positions. All I’m doing is calling you out on it. If you had just said from the start that you approved of reducing Slash damage, I wouldn’t have an issue.

I've stated slash itself is not getting a nerf. The mechanics are not changing.  You can still stack them. Proc distribution is changing, which means weapons with high base slash aren't really changing. If slash is weakened due to the distribution, then that's a side effect, but mechanics will still be the same. I avoided dropping my opinion earlier because of crap like this. It's because players get too invested in other's opinion.

Plus I got real tired of you attacking those that disagree with you. Seriously, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, but I still have the right to one. 

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Kurokoz said:

They are nerfing slash because weapons with 0 slash damage can do massive damage with slash procs which makes no sense. They are just fixing a problem that a lot of people rely on for some reason. I swear the Damage 2.5 post has caused nothing but pointless arguments and fear mongering.

See, I would have no problem whatsoever with a nerf to Slash Status if Puncture and Impact Status were being made geuinely useful, but they’re not.

 

So, in fact, my issue with the proposed core of the rework is not that it reduces Slash damage, it’s that it fails to make Puncture and Impact more worthwhile in exchange. 

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

I've stated slash itself is not getting a nerf. The mechanics are not changing.  You can still stack them. Proc distribution is changing, which means weapons with high base slash aren't really changing. If slash is weakened due to the distribution, then that's a side effect, but mechanics will still be the same. I avoided dropping my opinion earlier because of crap like this. It's because players get too invested in other's opinion.

Plus I got real tired of you attacking those that disagree with you. Seriously, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, but I still have the right to one. 

All you’re doing now is moving the goalposts. “I said that Slash damage isn’t getting nerfed, and it’s not! Slash Status effects depending on Slash damage are what’s getting nerfed, so my statement remains technically true!”

 

Like I said, I have no problem with you approving of the mechanical changes. In fact, we actually seem to agree on a lot of the details. My issue is with your semantic games and mendacity.

[Kurokoz]

Just now, Sajochi said:

I've stated slash itself is not getting a nerf. The mechanics are not changing.  You can still stack them. Proc distribution is changing, which means weapons with high base slash aren't really changing. If slash is weakened due to the distribution, then that's a side effect, but mechanics will still be the same. I avoided dropping my opinion earlier because of crap like this. It's because players get too invested in other's opinion.

Plus I got real tired of you attacking those that disagree with you. Seriously, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest, but I still have the right to one. 

You've stated its not being nerfed and that its being nerfed. BornWithTeeth is annoyed that you took another position, even if you merely changed your wording. Perspective is important. Please, let it go.

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

All you’re doing now is moving the goalposts. “I said that Slash damage isn’t getting nerfed, and it’s not! Slash Status effects depending on Slash damage are what’s getting nerfed, so my statement remains technically true!”

 

Like I said, I have no problem with you approving of the mechanical changes. In fact, we actually seem to agree on a lot of the details. My issue is with your semantic games and mendacity.

Some people can be stupid. Using words no one uses to continually call them out is not helping. Please, let it go.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Kurokoz said:

You've stated its not being nerfed and that its being nerfed. BornWithTeeth is annoyed that you took another position, even if you merely changed your wording. Perspective is important. Please, let it go.

Some people can be stupid. Using words no one uses to continually call them out is not helping. Please, let it go.

Entirely fair.

 

Do you see any similar sorts of unintended interactions in the elemental Status effects which you think DE might now take the chance to rectify/remove/buff/nerf? I suspect that Viral Status effects are coming in for a big round of changes.

[Midrib]

This is just a mess honestly, like someone said, this really shouldn't be done before fixing armor and scaling in general.

Which just gives me the impression that they will ignore most of the feedback/backlash they are getting right now, release a slightly better but still horrible status changes, they will notice more backlash & over the course of months they will try and fix it, and then they will release a fix that is decent but doesn't really fix most of the issues. Rings any bells? basically the whole Focus system.

[Mudfam]

Indeed slash itself does not seem to be getting nerfed, it looks like it might even be getting buffed. The problem is the indirect nerf to weapons that aren't slash focused, hunter munitions or no, these will have lower bleed proc damage on top of the existing reduced chance to proc it in the first place. And no, we can't mod around the problem, there is very little you can do to adjust most weapon's IPS distribution.

And again, the real problem is that slash remains as the most effective damage type and the only physical damage type that is capable of dealing with armoured targets at all. This further skews the balance in favour of slash weapons, which already dominate the meta.

So, setting everything else aside, this will still put the best weapons even further on top, while providing no benefits, and being detrimental to, the already relatively weaker puncture and impact weapons.

The issue is weapon diversity and balance, DE claims they want to "break the meta" and make IPS equally viable, but this change accomplishes the exact opposite, it further reinforces the current meta by completely cutting out everything that isn't already there.

And no, slash is not overpowered, it's a @(*()$ requirement, without it we are faced with common level 100 enemies that are practically immune to damage due to how armour scales, while all other enemies remain extremely easy to kill.

[phoenix1992]

Good afternoon fellow tenno.

Did we reign in the "sky is falling emotions" today?

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, WindigoTP said:

-snip-

I can't disagree with your assertions and have held a similar opinion regarding how stuff gets into the game myself in the past.

But I think you have confused my use of the term "balance" (act) with "Balanced" (state of being)...

I am not saying the game exists in a state of "Balance"... I said they have accounted for how much damage can be done with slash in the stuff that's released.

That much is obvious given that ttk speed didn't drop until they started propping up status procs to compete with crit.

The problem with this game lies in what makes it awesome...Modding takes a ton of unrelated incomparables and let's players find synergies with them.

...Stuff gets messy because of this though too.

Slash is OP compared to Impact or Puncture...This is because Impact and Puncture don't ignore armor. Slash doesn't care about armor, It just puts a DOT on the health behind it instead.

With that logic in mind, slash should have been the lowest damaging weapon type in the game on paper but it tends to run equal to or above other weapons.

Impact and Puncture need to be balanced to have similar ttk without extra gimmicks on all mobs as well to resolve the issue.

I'm not surprised that DE is nerfing slash because "nerf" is what DE tends to run to first.

I'm not surprised that the changes to impact and puncture don't feel like buffs...They have a vision on what they want these abilities to do and don't want to let go of it. 

My only concerns regard how it's going to affect TTK ( I solo almost entirely nowadays), How it's going to affect Ash,  and how the changes will affect what little diversity we have managed to cobble together right now through modding

For example, my favorite weapon is the strun....I'll have to shelve it with these impact changes though as I'm not interested in skeet shooting.

 

I'll tell you what's funny though... Making deep changes like this when you are enjoying probably the best (and most) press ever and being favorably compared to much bigger and more well funded franchises. 

...It's grenade juggling right now and I'm just watching from a distance. 

 

 

 

[Foefaller]

1 hour ago, Mudfam said:

And no, slash is not overpowered, it's a @(*()$ requirement, without it we are faced with common level 100 enemies that are practically immune to damage due to how armour scales, while all other enemies remain extremely easy to kill.

Now see, I Stongly disagree with that sentiment, not only because I get along fine in Floods and Sortie 3's without stacking bleeds, but because it is used all to often to excuse things I that consider poor game design (like 4x CP)

Armor scaling gets crazy once you get pass 80-90, I won't deny that, and that both should probably be changed together, but one questionable thing should not excuse another.

I'm with BornWithTeeth. my concern is less with slash itself (beyond what it means for various innate procs for weapons that don't have that damage type) but whether the changes to Impact and Puncture will come anywhere close to getting anyone to build for them.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Foefaller

[clxrffdman]

Won't rapiers get destroyed because they rely on the slash procs from their stances?

[o0Despair0o]

Am 20.12.2017 um 01:04 schrieb Azullion1:

Please watch this video from Brozime.

Or in other words; "I order you to do as this guys says because he definitely knows more about game development than any of you guys."

Edited December 21, 2017 by o0Despair0o

[GreyEnneract]

3 hours ago, Sajochi said:

My position was made clear. I approve of the change. Don't like another's opinion, then that's fine. You don't need to attack others for having a different one from yours. :P

On 12/19/2017 at 4:18 PM, Sajochi said:

 My personal feedback on Brozime:

I think he's an idiot. 

[Sajochi]

@GreyEnneract do you have anything to add to the thread besides taking a random shot at me? Guess not. 

I stand by what I said. I think Brozime is an idiot. I think the upcoming change is overall good. 

[robbybe01234]

So what is the line for when threads become adverts for youtubers?