[Ghouls] RNG lore is NOT acceptable!

[Drasiel]

11 hours ago, GrazewoundZero said:

Good afternoon, Pumpkins!

The ghouls won't spawn now. 

An automatic fail at 1/2 burial grounds cleared, or a 21/20 count without the Ghoul Alpha spawning.

It's now clear, that we're playing the bugged invasion from last month.

I had ghouls not spawning the first time around, swapping back and forth from operator to warframe seemed to fix it atleast solo.

[CulannHS]

On 12/21/2017 at 8:48 PM, JesterTheNight said:

Well the event will come back in the future, but are the ghouls staying in the plains even when the event isn't on? If that's the case then it isn't exclusive.

 

Wow... 30+ bounties in, still no stance for me (and only 5 fragments) ahahahah. At least the stance is sorta justified (but not really, it being the sole stance for a newly introduced type of melee weapon).

By any chance are we talking about the stance for Gunsen, the melee fans?

[BlackCoMerc]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

It shouldn't even be RNG. Up until now, lore has always been something we've discovered while scouring the maps, be it the fish statues, Ordis' memory fragments, Kuria artifacts, etc. It's a nice reward for choosing to take your time to investigate all the nooks and cranies lying off the beaten path.

What DE has done atm has broken with that enjoyable tradition and set a precedent for the future, which I firmly believe most players will not find agreeable.

Seriously DE, why be so stingy with this lore all of a sudden? You had a really good thing going previously and now you hide lore behind tedious grind which you should most people hate. What you're doing is making no sense at all. 

The Journal fragments should be scannable artifacts scattered around PoE. Have numerous locations where they can spawn, and give us some indicators that we are somewhat close to one, as with Sab caches.

Grinding for Lore is ridiculous. The story of Warframe isn't THAT interesting. Trust me.

[aidan890]

Hey all,

I see that I may have caused a bit of confusion here when I said we have "asked" for a revision in the drop tables. As many people have already correctly interpreted, what that means is that my job, and the job of the community department generally, is to act as a bridge between the community at large and the actual developers (to say the people with the technical skills to make Warframe). What this means is that every change or proposed change is actually a conversation, it is not up to the Community team to dictate orders for what needs to be changed, it is dialectic. Digital Extremes is a large company and Warframe has a huge player-base, as you are all likely aware, and this means that positions such as mine are an essential STEP in the development process, they do not override the combined hundreds of years of experience of our development team. With that said, I mean what I said initially, we are constantly in the practice of revision and community feedback is always considered, so long as it is reasonable, thoughtful, and respectful. 

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

[ikkabotz]

On 12/21/2017 at 8:08 PM, Rokuu48 said:

Seriously, every time anything remotely goes they way a player doesn't want it's EA. Oh god I didn't get everything handed to me it must be EA. Put your tin foil hat away. They are trying different things. Go with it. Be happy the best free to play game on the planet still tries. And for the rest, for gods sake, look what you are getting for nothing. The fact that they put this much into a free game and still have to constantly put up with the whining, it's just mind boggling. Try once being grateful, it might surprise you.

Well grinding for lore does sound like something EA would do. I'm not grateful for lore grind, just because Warframe is the most successful f2p game doesn't make it immune to criticism. .especially something like this 

Edited January 22, 2018 by komoriblues

[DaftMeat]

On 12/21/2017 at 6:32 PM, JesterTheNight said:

You should ALWAYS get one fragment as a mission reward while also being a bounty reward to grind faster

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all,

I see that I may have caused a bit of confusion here when I said we have "asked" for a revision in the drop tables. As many people have already correctly interpreted, what that means is that my job, and the job of the community department generally, is to act as a bridge between the community at large and the actual developers (to say the people with the technical skills to make Warframe). What this means is that every change or proposed change is actually a conversation, it is not up to the Community team to dictate orders for what needs to be changed, it is dialectic. Digital Extremes is a large company and Warframe has a huge player-base, as you are all likely aware, and this means that positions such as mine are an essential STEP in the development process, they do not override the combined hundreds of years of experience of our development team. With that said, I mean what I said initially, we are constantly in the practice of revision and community feedback is always considered, so long as it is reasonable, thoughtful, and respectful. 

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Appreciate you taking the time to speak with us, Aidan.

I can't speak for everyone providing feedback on this, but I wanted to let you know that myself and at least a few of us understand that you're just a messenger being asked to relay a message from higher ups - which isn't the easiest job in the world. While we may not be happy with the situation with regard to "Ghoul Lore" as it stands right now, we're not mad at you and we don't envy the amount of arguably undeserved flak you're taking over this.

Everyone else, please take into consideration that Aiden is just a messenger. It's not nice to shoot the messenger. The messenger is just doing their job which is to say things for their supervisors. If you have a beef with regard to how ghoul lore is being handled, I'd suggest directing your dissatisfaction - in a constructive and no-adversarial and insulting tone - at those that deserve it: The devs that thought hiding a fair bit of lore behind RNG with a low drop chance would be a great idea (which it isn't).

[[DE]Momaw]

My major objection to the design of the ghoul lore (as opposed to bugs), is that you don't get anything for finishing.   You get a kuria decoration for finding all the kuria, you get a crystal fish for finding all the hidden fish. Why don't we get anything cool for grinding out the large number of ghoul lore fragments? 

There are other things in warframe that take a lot of time and commitment to complete, like the kuria.  It's good to have long term goals and ghouls will come back on a regular basis.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Momaw

[Drasiel]

26 minutes ago, Momaw said:

My major objection to the design of the ghoul lore (as opposed to bugs), is that you don't get anything for finishing.   You get a kuria decoration for finding all the kuria, you get a crystal fish for finding all the hidden fish. Why don't we get anything cool for grinding out the large number of ghoul lore fragments? 

There are other things in warframe that take a lot of time and commitment to complete, like the kuria.  It's good to have long term goals and ghouls will come back on a regular basis.

I too would consider the kuria on par with the ghoul lore. Kuria are also very rng, especially since some of the tiles they spawn on are exceedingly rare. The datapad that is the icon for ghoul lore when it's rewarded would be a nice decoration to receive at the end. I always wanted a tablet.

[AVSManfred]

Wew this event is about to end soon (they decreased amount of successfull bounties or what that it goes so fast ? ) and still no changes to drop pool

 

[LunarFox777]

it's not a terrible way of getting lore... what is the terrible part is that it's a uncommon reward just like the weapons , but I can say I've done those missions and multiple times walk out with at least 2 of the weapon blueprint as table rewards yet 20+ runs get maybe 2 fragments if I'm lucky

[AVSManfred]

21 hours ago, LunarFox777 said:

it's not a terrible way of getting lore... what is the terrible part is that it's a uncommon reward just like the weapons , but I can say I've done those missions and multiple times walk out with at least 2 of the weapon blueprint as table rewards yet 20+ runs get maybe 2 fragments if I'm lucky

Thats why it is terrible way to get lore, what like what but lore supposed to have easy and clear access, ffs for players like me this is actually only thing that is sitill keeps us in game, we're invested into this world, it's lore and we want to explore it, but having to grind for it makes me care about it less, i simply don't want to keep runnig a boring missions to recive a ton of stuff which is useless for me at this point

[LunarFox777]

3 minutes ago, AVSManfred said:

Thats why it is terrible way to get lore, what like what but lore supposed to have easy and clear access, ffs for players like me this is actually only thing that is sitill keeps us in game, we're invested into this world, it's lore and we want to explore it, but having to grind for it makes me care about it less, i simply don't want to keep runnig a boring missions to recive S#&$ tone of stuff which is useless for me at this point

oh no believe me I get you, its mostly the same reason I play. it's  because the world and history of it pulls me in. but the I'm guessing 5% chance of the lore dropping is bs, needs to be changed to at least 15% if de refuses to remove the rng from it.

[AVSManfred]

2 minutes ago, LunarFox777 said:

oh no believe me I get you, its mostly the same reason I play. it's  because the world and history of it pulls me in. but the I'm guessing 5% chance of the lore dropping is bs, needs to be changed to at least 15% if de refuses to remove the rng from it.

Thats the huge problem of this game, there are already so many systems driven by RNG but DE keep adding more, blind to see that it don't make game more challenging or fun but jsut more frustrating...

[OniDax]

5 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all,

I see that I may have caused a bit of confusion here when I said we have "asked" for a revision in the drop tables. As many people have already correctly interpreted, what that means is that my job, and the job of the community department generally, is to act as a bridge between the community at large and the actual developers (to say the people with the technical skills to make Warframe). What this means is that every change or proposed change is actually a conversation, it is not up to the Community team to dictate orders for what needs to be changed, it is dialectic. Digital Extremes is a large company and Warframe has a huge player-base, as you are all likely aware, and this means that positions such as mine are an essential STEP in the development process, they do not override the combined hundreds of years of experience of our development team. With that said, I mean what I said initially, we are constantly in the practice of revision and community feedback is always considered, so long as it is reasonable, thoughtful, and respectful. 

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Well, you can be a bridge between the community and the developers by actually passing on what the community is requesting, which is that the grind for lore not be RNG-based. You really shouldn't be surprised that you've frustrated some people here. You responded to a thread titled "RNG lore is not acceptable" by talking about asking for a revision to drop tables and a focus on the "infrequency of drops". That's not the underlying issue here. The problem here is that we're grinding for lore based on RNG, and that's what this thread says is unacceptable.

So please don't ask for a revision to drop tables. The issue is that we're talking about drop tables and lore in the first place, something we shouldn't be doing. As someone who has just observed this thread, and chose to withhold commenting until now, all I have to ask of you is this: pass on to the devs the actual issues of the community. Don't just ask for revisions to the drop tables. Pass on the sentiment that this lore grind shouldn't be RNG-based. Pass on the request that DE remove the RNG-element altogether.

TL;DR: If you're not actually passing on our actual feedback, then you're not being a good bridge between the community and the devs. Please be a good bridge between the community and the devs, and pass on our actual feedback. If you look at this thread and the only thing you pass on to the devs is that the drop tables need a revision, then how can we trust the community team when they say they consider the community feedback here? If you're ignoring the central issue raised in this thread, how can we trust that you actually care about community feedback? No one is asking you to dictate changes to the dev team. Just accurately pass on the feedback here, and that feedback is that lore shouldn't be RNG-based.

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Appreciate you taking the time to speak with us, Aidan.

I can't speak for everyone providing feedback on this, but I wanted to let you know that myself and at least a few of us understand that you're just a messenger being asked to relay a message from higher ups - which isn't the easiest job in the world. While we may not be happy with the situation with regard to "Ghoul Lore" as it stands right now, we're not mad at you and we don't envy the amount of arguably undeserved flak you're taking over this.

Everyone else, please take into consideration that Aiden is just a messenger. It's not nice to shoot the messenger. The messenger is just doing their job which is to say things for their supervisors. If you have a beef with regard to how ghoul lore is being handled, I'd suggest directing your dissatisfaction - in a constructive and no-adversarial and insulting tone - at those that deserve it: The devs that thought hiding a fair bit of lore behind RNG with a low drop chance would be a great idea (which it isn't).

The community team is the means by which we direct any feedback - whether satisfaction or dissatisfaction - towards the devs, because they don't come on the forums often. They're too busy for that. So directing feedback towards members of the community team is what we're supposed to do. And if that community team member does not accurately reflect the feedback of the community, then naturally that community will be frustrated. Getting upset with the community team because of a message he/she is told to deliver to the community is certainly not going to fix things, and it is the community's responsibility to offer feedback in a respectful and constructive manner. But it is the responsibility of the community team to be that bridge between the devs and the community. Instead of getting hung up on certain community members being disrespectful, the community team should deal with them accordingly (if they've broken any rules), shrug it off, and pass on that passion and anger to the devs to let them know that the issue is something that really bothers some members of the community.

Bottom line: the community should be directing feedback at the community team, because they are the bridge between community and devs. And frustration with the community team should be expected if the community team isn't accurately passing on community feedback to the devs; and, to be more clear, focusing on "infrequency of drops" and "revision(s) to the drop tables" is not an accurate, holistic reflection of the feedback that "RNG lore is not acceptable".

Edited January 22, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Kainosh]

Im in!

Lets kill some of that ugly grind.   Those ghoul missions are so bad. Rewards suc (no lenses or other good stuff....and that gun bp spam) and low fragment chance....ugh.

Not worth doing. I just checked lore in the wiki.

 

 

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Bottom line: the community should be directing feedback at the community team, because they are the bridge between community and devs. And frustration with the community team should be expected if the community team isn't accurately passing on community feedback to the devs; and, to be more clear, focusing on "infrequency of drops" and "revision(s) to the drop tables" is not an accurate, holistic reflection of the feedback that "RNG lore is not acceptable".

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be subjecting the community reps to insults and hate. There's a difference between offering vital feedback and treating a rep like a punching bag solely for delivering a message. If the messenger is acting like a jerk however, then by all means treat them like a jerk. That said, I don't see Aidan acting like one. He's not exactly giving us the answer we want, but I'm pretty sure that's not entirely his fault. If he's passing on our grievances and concerns accurately and the devs still don't get it and tell him to say something we don't agree with, that lies solely on the devs. All a rep can do is relay a response as best they can.

If I'm working for a company and answer the phone and there's an angry customer on the line saying that they're unhappy with service my company gave them, I'm going to relay their exact concerns and problems to my boss. If my boss is going to be an idiot and not get why exactly the customer is mad even after explaining things to them, and tells me to say something to the customer that the customer winds up not liking....how is that my fault? Sure it reflects badly on the company, but that's the boss's fault, no?

And yes, I've done customer service / rep work before. It can be rather frustrating and thankless at times, specially when you have to tell a client customer something you know they're not going to like and they're going to give you hell for it regardless of how well and politely you deliver the bad news.

This should be about saying "Please deliver this message to the devs: 'We're really not happy about x situation for Y reasons and we feel this needs to be addressed" Not "Hey Aiden - you and your company are a bunch of %#$@%#*! Fix x situation now!" The former tends to get better results as you come off looking less like an angry jerk.

[Mach25]

29 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be subjecting the community reps to insults and hate. There's a difference between offering vital feedback and treating a rep like a punching bag solely for delivering a message. If the messenger is acting like a jerk however, then by all means treat them like a jerk. That said, I don't see Aidan acting like one. He's not exactly giving us the answer we want, but I'm pretty sure that's not entirely his fault. If he's passing on our grievances and concerns accurately and the devs still don't get it and tell him to say something we don't agree with, that lies solely on the devs. All a rep can do is relay a response as best they can.

.....

This should be about saying "Please deliver this message to the devs: 'We're really not happy about x situation for Y reasons and we feel this needs to be addressed" Not "Hey Aiden - you and your company are a bunch of %#$@%#*! Fix x situation now!" The former tends to get better results as you come off looking less like an angry jerk.

So you mean the forum users should save their forumspeak for each other and try to speak in a civilized manner to the staff? Huh, how about that...you're asking for trouble, man. /half-joke

That aside, I love the staff, they're awesome. If I could, I'd play this game with just them alone and a few others.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Mach25

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be subjecting the community reps to insults and hate. There's a difference between offering vital feedback and treating a rep like a punching bag solely for delivering a message. If the messenger is acting like a jerk however, then by all means treat them like a jerk. That said, I don't see Aidan acting like one. He's not exactly giving us the answer we want, but I'm pretty sure that's not entirely his fault. If he's passing on our grievances and concerns accurately and the devs still don't get it and tell him to say something we don't agree with, that lies solely on the devs. All a rep can do is relay a response as best they can.

If I'm working for a company and answer the phone and there's an angry customer on the line saying that they're unhappy with service my company gave them, I'm going to relay their exact concerns and problems to my boss. If my boss is going to be an idiot and not get why exactly the customer is mad even after explaining things to them, and tells me to say something to the customer that the customer winds up not liking....how is that my fault? Sure it reflects badly on the company, but that's the boss's fault, no?

And yes, I've done customer service / rep work before. It can be rather frustrating and thankless at times, specially when you have to tell a client customer something you know they're not going to like and they're going to give you hell for it regardless of how well and politely you deliver the bad news.

This should be about saying "Please deliver this message to the devs: 'We're really not happy about x situation for Y reasons and we feel this needs to be addressed" Not "Hey Aiden - you and your company are a bunch of %#$@%#*! Fix x situation now!" The former tends to get better results as you come off looking less like an angry jerk.

I certainly agree with everything you're saying.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I certainly agree with everything you're saying.

Cheers.

My apologies if I didn't make myself a bit clearer on the matter earlier.

[Sean]

Why is it that weapons are in the bounty reward table anyways? Seems the weapon BPs are extremely common, usually end up with 2 or 3 BPs by the end of a bounty run. That's one batch of items that needs to be removed as it only wastes a spot. Each bounty run should also give a guaranteed lore drop, no reason not to.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

Why is it that weapons are in the bounty reward table anyways? Seems the weapon BPs are extremely common, usually end up with 2 or 3 BPs by the end of a bounty run. That's one batch of items that needs to be removed as it only wastes a spot. Each bounty run should also give a guaranteed lore drop, no reason not to.

They're actually not that common they are a common drop on a single rare enemy that only one at a time is spawned. Specifically the Ghoul Auger Alpha and the Ghoul rictus Alpha. The only thing that makes them common is the amount of runs we do to get them.

What's interesting is that the stubba and quartakk as end mission rewards are both uncommon. they are the same level as rarity as the lore. So I'm wondering if maybe there is something wrong with the uncommon rewards perhaps a missing or extra zero.

[OniDax]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Cheers.

My apologies if I didn't make myself a bit clearer on the matter earlier.

No problem. I think I just misunderstood what you meant by don't direct your dissatisfaction at the community team. We should let them know that we're frustrated and dissatisfied, if we're frustrated and dissatisfied, but we shouldn't direct our anger and dissatisfaction at them through lashing out at them. Basically, let them know how we feel in a respectful manner, but don't direct it at them as though they're the reason for it, because they're just messengers.

[Sean]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

They're actually not that common they are a common drop on a single rare enemy that only one at a time is spawned. Specifically the Ghoul Auger Alpha and the Ghoul rictus Alpha. The only thing that makes them common is the amount of runs we do to get them.

What's interesting is that the stubba and quartakk as end mission rewards are both uncommon. they are the same level as rarity as the lore. So I'm wondering if maybe there is something wrong with the uncommon rewards perhaps a missing or extra zero.

 

Could possibly be something wrong with uncommon loot for this, I haven't had a single lore drop which is odd considering the amount of these bounties I have ran this time around. The first time the "event" (using that word very loosely), I ran less bounties and ended up with quite a few journal fragments.

 

At the current rate, I am ending up with multiple weapon BPs PER run.

[Oreades]

If we at least got one journal entry at the end of every mission that would establish a maximum cap for the grind time of something like ~9(8.8)-10.6 hrs of grind. Figuring each run would take about 10-12minutes* and you would at the very most need to run the mission 53 times (it might be 52). I don't mean that the 4th bounty reward was always guaranteed to be a Journal Entry, I mean in addition to the normal 4 reward draws, so the bonus "5th" reward would be a Journal Entry. Every time until you had gathered all the Journal Entries and then it would either stop handing out a 5th reward or turn into something like a few hundred Endo or whatever. 

Journal entries should still potentially drop from the bounty reward pools as they do now which would act to potentially cut the established maximum grind down slightly.  

As things stand now there is no maximum grind cap as it is completely up to RNG so it could be anything from as little as 13 runs (still a little over 2hrs) assuming someone manages to somehow get 4 Journal drops at every single bounty. All the way to a player never completing the journal entries assuming that they somehow have such terrible RNG that they just can't get them to drop. Realistically most people are going to fall into whatever the average is but relying purely on RNG just isn't good, especially for lore. Even more so for the volume of drops required, at least they aren't specific drops (in that you purportedly can't get dupes) but still you need to land that drop ~52 times. 

Even if someone managed to get 26 bonus journal entries during their runs and cut their grind down by 50% that still means that they put in something like 4.5 to 5 ish hours of grind. For no other reward than completing the lore in their codex. Personally I doubt most people would manage to land the RNG to cut their grind time down by 50% but even if they didn't there would still be the maximum cap that insured they wouldn't have to grind any longer than X number of runs. A finish line as it where, somewhere between 1.73hrs and 10hrs, where as the current finish line rests somewhere between 2hrs and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

*Figuring each leg takes ~2min, as most of them I seemed to run into had hard timers of about 2+ minutes plus a little extra for the travel/loading time. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Oreades