[Ghouls] RNG lore is NOT acceptable!

[AVSManfred]

So basically event is done right now, but DE still haven't done anything about drop pool... so predictable... like always their laziness pulls this game so low down...

[BlackCoMerc]

20 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all,

I see that I may have caused a bit of confusion here when I said we have "asked" for a revision in the drop tables. As many people have already correctly interpreted, what that means is that my job, and the job of the community department generally, is to act as a bridge between the community at large and the actual developers (to say the people with the technical skills to make Warframe). What this means is that every change or proposed change is actually a conversation, it is not up to the Community team to dictate orders for what needs to be changed, it is dialectic. Digital Extremes is a large company and Warframe has a huge player-base, as you are all likely aware, and this means that positions such as mine are an essential STEP in the development process, they do not override the combined hundreds of years of experience of our development team. With that said, I mean what I said initially, we are constantly in the practice of revision and community feedback is always considered, so long as it is reasonable, thoughtful, and respectful. 

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Thanks Aidan, for clarifying.

I think what threw me was seeing a DE name tag that was not speaking on behalf of DE, but instead on behalf of the community.

Appreciate you clearing it up.

[BlackCoMerc]

15 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

Thats the huge problem of this game, there are already so many systems driven by RNG but DE keep adding more, blind to see that it don't make game more challenging or fun but jsut more frustrating...

And it's stacking up to a critical mass of RNG, leaving us with the reality that honestly, we will NEVER see some drops. Ever.

And no, "just use trade chat" is not a solution. Some people want to play the game, not sit in Riven Exchange Chat trying in vain to trade something that isn't a Riven Mod all night long.

Edited January 23, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[AVSManfred]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And it's stacking up to a critical mass of RNG, leaving us with the reality that honestly, we will NEVER see some drops. Ever.

And no, "just use trade chat" is not a solution. Some people want to play the game, not sit in Riven Exchange Chat trying in vain to trade something that isn't a Riven Mod all night long.

For me Rivens shoudln't even be a thing at 1st place, they are simply adding more to already overloaded mod system also ruining the legacy of Corrupted mods, (actually doing it even harder than Primed) allowing to become pure buffs with no debuff letting players to just mindlessly  slap plenty of formas and run aorund with extremely buffed weapon... besides even such ridiculous system still haven't rescued plenty of weapons from staying in S#&$ tier pot, they just made it an excuse to don't make a serious rework on weapons stats as they new it would later demand adjusting other systems to it

Edited January 23, 2018 by AVSManfred

[BlackCoMerc]

18 minutes ago, AVSManfred said:

For me Rivens shoudln't even be a thing at 1st place, they are simply adding more to already overloaded mod system also ruining the legacy of Corrupted mods, (actually doing it even harder than Primed) allowing to become pure buffs with no debuff letting players to just mindlessly  slap plenty of formas and run aorund with extremely buffed weapon... besides even such ridiculous system still haven't rescued plenty of weapons from staying in S#&$ tier pot, they just made it an excuse to don't make a serious rework on weapons stats as they new it would later demand adjusting other systems to it

Rivens are an utter failure. Design wise, they take us even further from balanced, Engaging game play. Enemies are ALREADY built to be frustrating as opposed to challenging because most of them live for 0.1 seconds. How much WORSE will they become once players with God tier Rivens start complaining about lack of challenge?

In terms of acquisition, they are deliberate time wasters, forcing the godawful disaster that is Sorties. There's NOTHING fun about the bullet sponge enemies, arbitrary restrictions and tediousness of Sorties to begin with. Yet with Rivens DE doubled down on this travesty of design. Fortunately, the drop rates are so abysmal and the rewards so underwhelming, they aren't worth my time. Which is good, since both Sorties and Rivens absolutely suck.

Points wise the require Forma. Another balance wrecking design failure.

DE has used power creep to sell stuff. Either from the store, or via trade chat. And as power creep negated challenge, that same creep has made enemies a tedious, unfun mess of power canceling, control robbing bad design decisions. All to try and compensate for players so grossly overpowered that there is literally no method by which we can both maintain our tools and control, AND be challenged.

And they just keep kicking the can down the road. Telling themselves none if this will adversely affect the game. But it has. 

Fun is basically in the rearview. Engaging game play has vanished. Now it's either one shot kills/deaths, or wading through tedious bullet sponges and waiting on Invulnerability phases like some 90's JRPG while our controls are constantly taken away and our powers cancelled without warning or visual indicators by one of the 50 enemies on screen.

Warframe has become an exercise in Tedium. One bad design decision after another has killed any semblance of balance or quality. DE needs a complete balance pass. Soon.

[WingedCrusade]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:13 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Asked? Asked WHO? You're THE DEV TEAM. Either fix it, or dont. But please, dont come here TALKING ABOUT reducing grind again. You've spent two years talking about reducing it while actually increasing it at every opportunity.

Talking on this topic is done. Or ought to be. Either fix it. Or dont. But stop CLAIMING you're looking into it. Please. Its reaching the point of condescension. 

Or...is this implicit admission that loot tables, drop chances and the reliance of RNG are no longer up to DE to decide...?

Uhm. I’m pretty sure Aidan’s a community advocate like Deej to Bungie for Destiny???

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, WingedCrusade said:

Uhm. I’m pretty sure Aidan’s a community advocate like Deej to Bungie for Destiny???

Yes. Aidan made it clear that, despite using the DE tag, community members speak on behalf of the community team, not DE as a whole. Weird, to me, but i know that now and so his comment makes more sense.

I was glad he clarified.

[Drasiel]

13 hours ago, Sean said:

 

Could possibly be something wrong with uncommon loot for this, I haven't had a single lore drop which is odd considering the amount of these bounties I have ran this time around. The first time the "event" (using that word very loosely), I ran less bounties and ended up with quite a few journal fragments.

 

At the current rate, I am ending up with multiple weapon BPs PER run.

I actually really think there might be something wrong, I went and checked the official drop table and this is what I found

The weapons have the same chance as the lore. The EXACT same chance. While rng can be a *@##$, considering the amount of people complaining about overflow on weapons (which shouldn't be skewed this much by the two alphas that drop the weapon) and drought of lore. Something seems really wrong here.

 

7 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

So basically event is done right now, but DE still haven't done anything about drop pool... so predictable... like always their laziness pulls this game so low down...

Yes the event is nearly over for this rotation. An event that took place over the weekend, an event that will be back in a few weeks, an event that seems to be ending on a tuesday one day before normal patch day, an event that the staff would have had -13 hours to work on code for (and that's only if the devs have decided on what solution they want to use here). You speak of laziness without considering basic human needs and the actually time it takes to make new assets and code in changes without breaking everything tangentially involved in a system like this. You sir need to tone back the devbashing hard.

[AVSManfred]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Rivens are an utter failure. Design wise, they take us even further from balanced, Engaging game play. Enemies are ALREADY built to be frustrating as opposed to challenging because most of them live for 0.1 seconds. How much WORSE will they become once players with God tier Rivens start complaining about lack of challenge?

In terms of acquisition, they are deliberate time wasters, forcing the godawful disaster that is Sorties. There's NOTHING fun about the bullet sponge enemies, arbitrary restrictions and tediousness of Sorties to begin with. Yet with Rivens DE doubled down on this travesty of design. Fortunately, the drop rates are so abysmal and the rewards so underwhelming, they aren't worth my time. Which is good, since both Sorties and Rivens absolutely suck.

Points wise the require Forma. Another balance wrecking design failure.

DE has used power creep to sell stuff. Either from the store, or via trade chat. And as power creep negated challenge, that same creep has made enemies a tedious, unfun mess of power canceling, control robbing bad design decisions. All to try and compensate for players so grossly overpowered that there is literally no method by which we can both maintain our tools and control, AND be challenged.

And they just keep kicking the can down the road. Telling themselves none if this will adversely affect the game. But it has. 

Fun is basically in the rearview. Engaging game play has vanished. Now it's either one shot kills/deaths, or wading through tedious bullet sponges and waiting on Invulnerability phases like some 90's JRPG while our controls are constantly taken away and our powers cancelled without warning or visual indicators by one of the 50 enemies on screen.

Warframe has become an exercise in Tedium. One bad design decision after another has killed any semblance of balance or quality. DE needs a complete balance pass. Soon.

Well major issue here is that DE are so high on their pride thye jsut can't admit they made mistakes, thye're just keep braging about how much thye have done, how fun it's gonna be bla bla bal... all that trash talk jsut to cover up that players have way different point of view on many aspects of game.

I honestly don't mind idea of Sortie, after all modyfiers themselves can be interestign thing but can't change much in already boring combat, enemies like Nullifyer, Comba or Scarmbus are also not that much of bad idea but in bad game, thye could be so much better if numbers of enemies wouldn't be so high  i mena thye could be great way to intorduce miniboss system, or soemthign liek that but nto in a horde of enemies...

Seriously this gamee could be so much better if DE could actually start thinking about seriosu changes to gamplay not ow to don't change anything but add somethign that co

6 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Yes the event is nearly over for this rotation. An event that took place over the weekend, an event that will be back in a few weeks, an event that seems to be ending on a tuesday one day before normal patch day, an event that the staff would have had -13 hours to work on code for (and that's only if the devs have decided on what solution they want to use here). You speak of laziness without considering basic human needs and the actually time it takes to make new assets and code in changes without breaking everything tangentially involved in a system like this. You sir need to tone back the devbashing hard.

Well let me say here i'm talkign aobut fac that our DE "contact" announced they'll be looking into it at 1st or 2nd day event started thye had about 3 or 4 days to do something aobut it yet they done nothing... thats the problem, also i msut admit i'm quite surprised this time this event ended up so fast comparing to 1st one which took like almost entire month before it got finished(probably amount of requierd finished bounties got strongly decreased). Seriously this makes me really doubt if they actually looking into solution for this i mean think aobut how fast they changed the amount of standing needed during Plauge Star, less than day, here they had few days and done anything...

[Drasiel]

23 minutes ago, AVSManfred said:

<snip>

Well let me say here i'm talkign aobut fac that our DE "contact" announced they'll be looking into it at 1st or 2nd day event started thye had about 3 or 4 days to do something aobut it yet they done nothing... thats the problem, also i msut admit i'm quite surprised this time this event ended up so fast comparing to 1st one which took like almost entire month before it got finished(probably amount of requierd finished bounties got strongly decreased). Seriously this makes me really doubt if they actually looking into solution for this i mean think aobut how fast they changed the amount of standing needed during Plauge Star, less than day, here they had few days and done anything...

You do realise the event started on Friday afternoon. I'm PST so afternoon for me normally means after 6pm DE time, the time most places of businesses that are not in the hospitality sector close. The reply aiden gave us was on saturday morning. There was no one at work to make the changes. One of the community people came here to let us know we had been heard and they were pushing for changes. He can't solo code and create additional assets for whatever the changes are, and that's if a member of the community management team could even code. People like to go Well they had 48 hours to change it once the new week started, and that's a gross overestimation. Say they start at the normal time of 9am and leave at 6pm  that gives a 9 hour time period to discuss changes and maybe start on asset creation (if necessary) and code changes. Even if that's all they worked on there is no guarantee that they even got to the testing phase. Then we take today of which the day isn't even over yet and gives them about 4 hours to continue working on it. This is of course ignoring lunch, it's less time if you feed them.

DE always works overtime on full game wide clan based events. For stuff like tactical alerts, which the ghoul bounties more closely resemble the updates normally follow normal update schedules which means Wednesday updates. I'm not surprised that no changes were made after the first rotation. That was the community wide testing phase and it took place over christmas. The ghoul bounties started again 2 weeks after the office started up and ghoul bounties weren't the only t hing to collect data on and review I guarantee. 

 

[AVSManfred]

5 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

You do realise the event started on Friday afternoon. I'm PST so afternoon for me normally means after 6pm DE time, the time most places of businesses that are not in the hospitality sector close. The reply aiden gave us was on saturday morning. There was no one at work to make the changes. One of the community people came here to let us know we had been heard and they were pushing for changes. He can't solo code and create additional assets for whatever the changes are, and that's if a member of the community management team could even code. People like to go Well they had 48 hours to change it once the new week started, and that's a gross overestimation. Say they start at the normal time of 9am and leave at 6pm  that gives a 9 hour time period to discuss changes and maybe start on asset creation (if necessary) and code changes. Even if that's all they worked on there is no guarantee that they even got to the testing phase. Then we take today of which the day isn't even over yet and gives them about 4 hours to continue working on it. This is of course ignoring lunch, it's less time if you feed them.

DE always works overtime on full game wide clan based events. For stuff like tactical alerts, which the ghoul bounties more closely resemble the updates normally follow normal update schedules which means Wednesday updates. I'm not surprised that no changes were made after the first rotation. That was the community wide testing phase and it took place over christmas. The ghoul bounties started again 2 weeks after the office started up and ghoul bounties weren't the only t hing to collect data on and review I guarantee. 

 

oh well, still i think they should stop throwing this event at us at time when they can't do anything about it, as lack of their reaction to our feedback just causes more frustration in community, which actually isn't as aware of their weekly and daily work time organization, anyways speaking of Tactical alerts, damn wish i could see more of these, still have the full Stratos emblem and some of the earliest ones were very interesting idea, well they were like actual challenges

[Fihuren]

il y a 32 minutes, AVSManfred a dit :

oh well, still i think they should stop throwing this event at us at time when they can't do anything about it, as lack of their reaction to our feedback just causes more frustration in community, which actually isn't as aware of their weekly and daily work time organization, anyways speaking of Tactical alerts, damn wish i could see more of these, still have the full Stratos emblem and some of the earliest ones were very interesting idea, well they were like actual challenges

This event was designed to be launched automatically 2 weeks after the end of the last one (as Aidan said earlier and comparison).

[AVSManfred]

55 minutes ago, Finara said:

This event was designed to be launched automatically 2 weeks after the end of the last one (as Aidan said earlier and comparison).

Well sounds liek they shoul reprogram it to get launched at their work time to do something aobut it, don't saund liek that much of a problem...

[(PSN)cove1974]

On 22/12/2017 at 4:08 AM, Rokuu48 said:

Seriously, every time anything remotely goes they way a player doesn't want it's EA. Oh god I didn't get everything handed to me it must be EA. Put your tin foil hat away. They are trying different things. Go with it. Be happy the best free to play game on the planet still tries. And for the rest, for gods sake, look what you are getting for nothing. The fact that they put this much into a free game and still have to constantly put up with the whining, it's just mind boggling. Try once being grateful, it might surprise you.

Well said boyo 😉

[Faerren]

Just changing the journal bits from uncommon to common would help tons. Consider how many runs it would take to complete a somachord song on a planet or collect cephalon fragments on one planet. The plains already has the thousand year fish to find. Making the ghoul lore such a slog for no reason just makes me not to want to not touch ghoul stuff, especially when the other rewards end up being repetitive.

And if unwilling to do that, a single lore fragment per bounty or ability to trade standing/macguffin tokens for the lore fragments would be better (and it'd make more sense getting lore that way than randomly on bounty stages, lore-wise?)

[AVSManfred]

12 minutes ago, Faerren said:

Just changing the journal bits from uncommon to common would help tons. Consider how many runs it would take to complete a somachord song on a planet or collect cephalon fragments on one planet. The plains already has the thousand year fish to find. Making the ghoul lore such a slog for no reason just makes me not to want to not touch ghoul stuff, especially when the other rewards end up being repetitive.

And if unwilling to do that, a single lore fragment per bounty or ability to trade standing/macguffin tokens for the lore fragments would be better (and it'd make more sense getting lore that way than randomly on bounty stages, lore-wise?)

Both are good ideas, trick is if DE sees it as such... after all they have to "keep players playing" somehow... kinda achieving reverse effect this way...

[Faerren]

51 minutes ago, AVSManfred said:

Both are good ideas, trick is if DE sees it as such... after all they have to "keep players playing" somehow... kinda achieving reverse effect this way...

I think the better solution would be a second operational supply scenario like with plaguestar, let us gather a special type of standing that we can spend on lore or on a pile of consumables or something else. Things could be priced accordingly for a "few days every two weeks" event and let players go after goals they're interested in at a more reasonable rate and reasonable fashion (And remove stubba/quartakk bps as mob drops when they're in the bounty drop table/supply list so they aren't dropped 1-4 times a bounty independent of the bounty rewards). I'm not asking for DE to easy-mode the drops for lore, just to do things toward "fringe-sane-mode" instead.

And if they want to put in literal time sinks for more veteran players, creating a fashionframe grind (or several) reminiscent of the grind to let people color their clans would be pretty interesting. We all know fashion is the true endgame anyway.

[BethTheBean]

Well, this issue plus the ongoing bugs (made the event unplayable for me) weren't addressed in time. That's disappointing to see, as I was hoping to complete my lore fragment set this time around. 

[xandro2]

On 22-12-2017 at 5:08 AM, Rokuu48 said:

Seriously, every time anything remotely goes they way a player doesn't want it's EA. Oh god I didn't get everything handed to me it must be EA. Put your tin foil hat away. They are trying different things. Go with it. Be happy the best free to play game on the planet still tries. And for the rest, for gods sake, look what you are getting for nothing. The fact that they put this much into a free game and still have to constantly put up with the whining, it's just mind boggling. Try once being grateful, it might surprise you.

Did u get paid by EA to say that ?

[AVSManfred]

On 22.12.2017 at 5:08 AM, Rokuu48 said:

Seriously, every time anything remotely goes they way a player doesn't want it's EA. Oh god I didn't get everything handed to me it must be EA. Put your tin foil hat away. They are trying different things. Go with it. Be happy the best free to play game on the planet still tries. And for the rest, for gods sake, look what you are getting for nothing. The fact that they put this much into a free game and still have to constantly put up with the whining, it's just mind boggling. Try once being grateful, it might surprise you.

Honestly it's hard to be grateful when developers decisions are disrespectful to us and our time, as we are forced to grind a boring content to try to get lore that shouldn't be put behind a grind wall, ok we're getting a lot of content in this game but main issue is that content is getting boring very soon after it came out as the game design simply don't make this content enjoyable to repeat, combat system is badly designed and plain boring, mods system overflown with mass of mods we never use, AI id dumb like board in fence and to recompense it on higher levels enemies are being turned into damage sponges with ridiculous stats scaling which makes thing even worse...

Shortly saying this is not lack of content that is problem but outdated core gameplay which need to be made into something better... but DE are simply refusing to do so cuz they're to high on pride to admit  how many big mistakes they made while designing this game

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

On 23/12/2017 at 2:59 AM, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Player retention for players who missed out on the event. But then how do you retain players that were there for the previous event?

Edit: If the above comment about how drop rates are handled is correct, in that regard I think that it needs to be changed. (To every drop of a Journal is Unique)

Veteran content is always an issue. But I this is contradicting

Player want the lore to drop frequently to finish the current content fast and then complain that they got nothing new to do. 

Well I do agree that making the content longer by giving it a stingy rng is not a good design but imo it gives incentive it gives you reason to replay the game. 

Heck the whole game is meant to be repeated again and again even earth missions that have the weakest enemey and no fun to play.

At first I thought the journal could lead me to a bp or an item that wen used will mark a location in the map that have a special bp or resource but nope just a lore, the ghould mission kinda works like the same with plain mission so what is problem with playing again and again, you still got bounty and regular stuff anyway that you might be farming anyway.

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

1 hour ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Veteran content is always an issue. But I this is contradicting

Player want the lore to drop frequently to finish the current content fast and then complain that they got nothing new to do. 

Well I do agree that making the content longer by giving it a stingy rng is not a good design but imo it gives incentive it gives you reason to replay the game. 

Heck the whole game is meant to be repeated again and again even earth missions that have the weakest enemey and no fun to play.

At first I thought the journal could lead me to a bp or an item that wen used will mark a location in the map that have a special bp or resource but nope just a lore, the ghould mission kinda works like the same with plain mission so what is problem with playing again and again, you still got bounty and regular stuff anyway that you might be farming anyway.

From what I gather I was under the assumption that on top of the RNG to get a lorebook you also faced RNG on which one it gives. I'm not fond of two RNG systems doubling up.

[Drasiel]

42 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

From what I gather I was under the assumption that on top of the RNG to get a lorebook you also faced RNG on which one it gives. I'm not fond of two RNG systems doubling up.

as long as you don't get duplicates (which I've heard rumour about but never seen evidence about) it it really a problem though?

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

3 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

as long as you don't get duplicates (which I've heard rumour about but never seen evidence about) it it really a problem though?

I mean that's what I thought happened when I posted that all that time ago. That you only had pure RNG on what book dropped when you got one. Allowing duplicated books to be picked up, essentially "wasting" that RNG roll.

If it's just the RNG of getting a book you don't have, that's fine. But RNG for a book with RNG of getting the right one (so you don't get one you already have), is what I'm against,

[Drasiel]

2 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

I mean that's what I thought happened when I posted that all that time ago. That you only had pure RNG on what book dropped when you got one. Allowing duplicated books to be picked up, essentially "wasting" that RNG roll.

If it's just the RNG of getting a book you don't have, that's fine. But RNG for a book with RNG of getting the right one (so you don't get one you already have), is what I'm against,

Yeah I 100% agree with that. I would be very much against rng of getting the right one. From what I understand people where claiming that an "empty" bounty section reward meant you got a duplicate, but that was actually a different bug where sadly you just got nothing at all.