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[Ghouls] RNG lore is NOT acceptable!


JesterTheNight
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It took me 3 days of solid grind to complete all of them including Alpha Ghoul scans. So yes it's doable, but not enjoyable.

There is something worth to note. The bounty i was farming was about eliminate alpha ghoul. I was getting average 1-2 drops for each bounty run (one time even 3). That encourage me to keep going. I farmed like 30 journals in that bounty. After a while the bounty mission changed and i never got the journal entry again. Instead was getting empty rewards. I changed to different bounty and the last 5 journals took me whole evening to farm. Now that i think about it, maybe journal entries are tied to specific bounties/missions? Once you get all from that bounty it starts to give empty (duplicate?) rewards.

To close this, it was hell of a grind and i really do not want anything like that to happen again. It's just too much... For Christmas time i would prefer enjoyable, fast-to-complete event.

Edited by Sebith
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2 hours ago, Sebith said:

It took me 3 days of solid grind to complete all of them including Alpha Ghoul scans. So yes it's doable, but not enjoyable.

There is something worth to note. The bounty i was farming was about eliminate alpha ghoul. I was getting average 1-2 drops for each bounty run (one time even 3). That encourage me to keep going. I farmed like 30 journals in that bounty. After a while the bounty mission changed and i never got the journal entry again. Instead was getting empty rewards. I changed to different bounty and the last 5 journals took me whole evening to farm. Now that i think about it, maybe journal entries are tied to specific bounties/missions? Once you get all from that bounty it starts to give empty (duplicate?) rewards.

To close this, it was hell of a grind and i really do not want anything like that to happen again. It's just too much... For Christmas time i would prefer enjoyable, fast-to-complete event.

I'd just take Enjoyable. But that seems to go against the current design philosophy.

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God even listening to DK read it I couldn't help but cry, why did DE lock possibly if not the best lore in the game thus far behind such horrible RNG.

I'm almost tempted to pound my face against the RNG wall again but every sane fiber of my being is saying NO. 

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On 12/22/2017 at 6:50 PM, ExpGui said:

@[DE]Aidan could you perhaps look at @TGDM reddit post please?

 

Oh god, is THAT what the empty reward popups are?
I got the log parts at semi reasonable speed, for the first day, then it slowed down..
Now that I have nearly half of them, it's slowed down to almost nothing.

I was wondering what this could be, and thought, of course they wouldn't require individual part drops with duplicates not counting, that would be INSANE, at that slowly decreasing drop chance I would NOT even manage to finish it in a year...
Now it's looking like the worst case scenario is actually true.

Edited by enizer
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So against my better judgment I finished the (21 missing) lore entries, I'm not even sure how long it took, no I take that back.... I started shortly after my last post ..... so it took ~10hrs give or take. 

I didn't do it because I enjoyed the bounties, they where OK at best.

I still find the Ghouls to be mechanically interesting but the toxin/cold clouds still seem a bit cheese and I'm definitely concerned for what they will scale into more so than I am with what we have seen.

The reason I did it was purely for the lore and the fact that every time I read/viewed it on youtube etc, it managed to give me the feels. 

Spoiler

Mostly because of VK-7 like 300% because of VK-7

That said I still haven't bothered to scan the glass fish and I'm sure that by now there are probably several detailed walkthroughs. I just don't really care that much about what I've read of the lore, I mean it's interesting and all but it doesn't move me. I guess I mention that to exemplify the fact that this bit of lore was for me as close to lightning in a bottle as I've experienced from Warframe.

Cause for the last ~5hrs my eyes where pretty much completely glazed over, my brain nearly completely shut off and I was just going through the motions. So unless every bit of lore from here on out resonates in complete harmony with my being, I do not see me doing something like this for lore again in the future. 

That said, having completed gathering all 52 entries I would have exactly zero issue with any correction that would make this task less punishing on those who have not yet completed it. 

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just saw I need like 50 lores and considering the rewards for ghoul bounties... no. no thank you. I get the grind as alternative to spending money, but this? no. just no. don't close the game off to new players who don't know about the wiki. like this they might never notice you put effort into your game. what the hek are you thinking, what is the logic here? first you drop the ghouls into the game like everyone knows what they are, then you make it tedious to get the background on what those even are and why we should care?

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15 runs and 0 fragment ( i have 19/52 left ) this is just frustrating at this point ... i want to enjoy the grind but if the grind doesnt reward "Progession" then what the ^%&&ing point of doing it? 

why not make everytime u finish a full set bounty u get a guranteed entry? (so far i have do ~90 bounties) Why? WHY DE why? 
i just gonna go cool of with other game before i go full berserk :|

 

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Well, I'm done. Just got lucky and the last two journals in one bounty. Lost count how many bounties I did, but I have 107 Lith T1, 85 Neo S7 (anything I owned of those before was single digits only), 24 Slicing Feathers - and still not a single Toxin Resistance from all the Noxes I killed on the Plains.

Screw you, DE, for making me do this. My only hope is that @[DE]Rebecca and @[DE]Steve spent their holidays farming their butts off just like us and realized what a bad idea this was. And that Khora won't be added to future Ghoul bounties but gets a reasonable quest again that rewards all parts instead of just the full bp. You only get so much mileage out of blowing up Expireds with their own hands.

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+1

 

After I got the guns and new mod stance, I stopped.  The XP on new enemies way to low and can't even level weapons while playing like you can bounties.  

 

The grind is to much there.  Should be a gauranteed fragment each run with chance at extras.  

 

Also wasn't to happy seeing hunter mods again so soon.  Already have them all.  

 

Just no reason for me to continue.  If I get the urge, I'll read em on wiki!

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Hello!
I think I have some different thoughts about the journals:

  • What people keep proposing here as a solution is often Increase the drop rate! or Make it drop from the ghouls! or Make it a guaranteed reward! Now that's not really the problem, is it? We are not mad about journals themselves being rare. Tempo Royale is rare, rare containers are... well... rare, yet ain't nobody got problem with that. The problem is repeating the same boring procedure over and over multiple times.
     
  • How does the bounty look like? Go there, do that, go elsewhere, do another thing. There are many issues with bounty construction and I'm sure those are adressed in other topics but I'll mention some I came up with just for the sake of perspective:
    - Too much time spent on getting from one place to another
    - Archwing used basically as a form of transport
    - Most of the rewards being totally useless for vast majority of the players
    - Bounty tasks being a copy of normal missions
     
  • Problems I have with journals themselves:
    - Journals aren't things collected at the time of doing something else (like cephalon fragments)
    - Can be acquired ony in one way 
    - You won't get anything useful in the process of farming for them
    - They aren't adding anything new to the game, gameplaywise (unlike somachords)
     
  • Possible solutions:
    - Add some useful rewards to the ghoul bounties (kuva, chance to get extra ostron standing, significant credit rewards, eidalon resources etc.)
    - Make bounties less stage-by-stage and more unique (puzzless to solve, defending actual camp members at camp liberation) that comes with bounties taking longer to complete and less of them needed to get what you want. I'd rather spend an hour doing various things to complete one bounty and get some fancy rewards than repeating the same quick bounty 5 times.
    - Make missions specifically for journal entries... Right now they are called ENCRYPTED for no reason. :)
    - Want people to use archwing/fish/mine? Make those activities part of bounties (for example: catch a giant fish aiming for it's weakpoints).
    - You have a giant map of PoE to use, make it useful for things other than time spend on travelling from one place to another (like some timed races, long range fights, giant structure defences, air fights, air supporting other players etc.)
    - Make harder bounties give more journal fragments (some end-game bounty with ghould boss giving 3-4 entries as one of the rewards for example)
    Most importantly - give us longer, better designed missions with better rewards without the need for doing them 24/7.
     
  • I actually have one request to DE if you are reading this: play the game you are developing. Don't use dev codes to get things you want, farm for at least some of them. You'll recognise the problem for sure and game will be better in no time. :)
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46 minutes ago, Nerfoxbylozajete said:

Hello!
I think I have some different thoughts about the journals:

  • What people keep proposing here as a solution is often Increase the drop rate! or Make it drop from the ghouls! or Make it a guaranteed reward! Now that's not really the problem, is it? We are not mad about journals themselves being rare. Tempo Royale is rare, rare containers are... well... rare, yet ain't nobody got problem with that. The problem is repeating the same boring procedure over and over multiple times.
     
  • How does the bounty look like? Go there, do that, go elsewhere, do another thing. There are many issues with bounty construction and I'm sure those are adressed in other topics but I'll mention some I came up with just for the sake of perspective:
    - Too much time spent on getting from one place to another
    - Archwing used basically as a form of transport
    - Most of the rewards being totally useless for vast majority of the players
    - Bounty tasks being a copy of normal missions
     
  • Problems I have with journals themselves:
    - Journals aren't things collected at the time of doing something else (like cephalon fragments)
    - Can be acquired ony in one way 
    - You won't get anything useful in the process of farming for them
    - They aren't adding anything new to the game, gameplaywise (unlike somachords)
     
  • Possible solutions:
    - Add some useful rewards to the ghoul bounties (kuva, chance to get extra ostron standing, significant credit rewards, eidalon resources etc.)
    - Make bounties less stage-by-stage and more unique (puzzless to solve, defending actual camp members at camp liberation) that comes with bounties taking longer to complete and less of them needed to get what you want. I'd rather spend an hour doing various things to complete one bounty and get some fancy rewards than repeating the same quick bounty 5 times.
    - Make missions specifically for journal entries... Right now they are called ENCRYPTED for no reason. :)
    - Want people to use archwing/fish/mine? Make those activities part of bounties (for example: catch a giant fish aiming for it's weakpoints).
    - You have a giant map of PoE to use, make it useful for things other than time spend on travelling from one place to another (like some timed races, long range fights, giant structure defences, air fights, air supporting other players etc.)
    - Make harder bounties give more journal fragments (some end-game bounty with ghould boss giving 3-4 entries as one of the rewards for example)
    Most importantly - give us longer, better designed missions with better rewards without the need for doing them 24/7.
     
  • I actually have one request to DE if you are reading this: play the game you are developing. Don't use dev codes to get things you want, farm for at least some of them. You'll recognise the problem for sure and game will be better in no time. :)

I'm surprised I haven't seen this highlighted before, this is exactly the problem with this event.
This is similar to the hema grind last year, which was also extremely monotonous.
These ghoul missions are always almost identical, and we are only doing them over and over for ONE thing, and they drop nothing else that's interesting

Everyone got mountains of the hunter mods last month, the weapons and stances also drop from mobs, so we all got that in the first minutes of this event.. so now it's just, do the exact same mission 200 times in a row, for exclusively lore entries, and there's no hope of ANYTHING else dropping, or changing up the routine.

This is... boring.

DE said somewhere that the ghouls will return regularly.. well, unless they change, it's going to be EXACTLY the same kind of boring then, so getting more chances dosn't really fix the problem that I'm not half way done collecting the logs, and I don't want to see ghouls ever again.. this is just.. monotony, in it's purest form.

Edited by enizer
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While I also agree with the rest of your post, I would love to see those things implemented :

2 hours ago, Nerfoxbylozajete said:

- Want people to use archwing/fish/mine? Make those activities part of bounties (for example: catch a giant fish aiming for it's weakpoints).
- You have a giant map of PoE to use, make it useful for things other than time spend on travelling from one place to another (like some timed races, long range fights, giant structure defences, air fights, air supporting other players etc.)

 

 

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Wpuld be cool to be rewarded as well for getting the whole set. Like a little model or hologram of Venari. That would really push people to grind too. Not just for law but an exclusive item from the perspective of the scientist who met that unique kavaat. I also agree with Nerfoxbylozajete.

 

More variation in missions would be great.

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10 hours ago, Nerfoxbylozajete said:

 

  • Problems I have with journals themselves:
    - Journals aren't things collected at the time of doing something else (like cephalon fragments)
    - Can be acquired ony in one way 
    - You won't get anything useful in the process of farming for them
    - They aren't adding anything new to the game, gameplaywise (unlike somachords)

The other problem is that they ultimately pollute the drop tables. 

For people who either don't care about lore or those who have completed the lore, getting a fragment is tantamount to receiving no reward at all. They become a dead drop in the loot table. 

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18 hours ago, Nerfoxbylozajete said:

Hello!
I think I have some different thoughts about the journals:

  • What people keep proposing here as a solution is often Increase the drop rate! or Make it drop from the ghouls! or Make it a guaranteed reward! Now that's not really the problem, is it? We are not mad about journals themselves being rare. Tempo Royale is rare, rare containers are... well... rare, yet ain't nobody got problem with that. The problem is repeating the same boring procedure over and over multiple times.
     
  • How does the bounty look like? Go there, do that, go elsewhere, do another thing. There are many issues with bounty construction and I'm sure those are adressed in other topics but I'll mention some I came up with just for the sake of perspective:
    - Too much time spent on getting from one place to another
    - Archwing used basically as a form of transport
    - Most of the rewards being totally useless for vast majority of the players
    - Bounty tasks being a copy of normal missions
     
  • Problems I have with journals themselves:
    - Journals aren't things collected at the time of doing something else (like cephalon fragments)
    - Can be acquired ony in one way 
    - You won't get anything useful in the process of farming for them
    - They aren't adding anything new to the game, gameplaywise (unlike somachords)
     
  • Possible solutions:
    - Add some useful rewards to the ghoul bounties (kuva, chance to get extra ostron standing, significant credit rewards, eidalon resources etc.)
    - Make bounties less stage-by-stage and more unique (puzzless to solve, defending actual camp members at camp liberation) that comes with bounties taking longer to complete and less of them needed to get what you want. I'd rather spend an hour doing various things to complete one bounty and get some fancy rewards than repeating the same quick bounty 5 times.
    - Make missions specifically for journal entries... Right now they are called ENCRYPTED for no reason. :)
    - Want people to use archwing/fish/mine? Make those activities part of bounties (for example: catch a giant fish aiming for it's weakpoints).
    - You have a giant map of PoE to use, make it useful for things other than time spend on travelling from one place to another (like some timed races, long range fights, giant structure defences, air fights, air supporting other players etc.)
    - Make harder bounties give more journal fragments (some end-game bounty with ghould boss giving 3-4 entries as one of the rewards for example)
    Most importantly - give us longer, better designed missions with better rewards without the need for doing them 24/7.
     
  • I actually have one request to DE if you are reading this: play the game you are developing. Don't use dev codes to get things you want, farm for at least some of them. You'll recognise the problem for sure and game will be better in no time. :)

This is very useful feedback, and very good.  But like you've said that everyone is going "Make them drop more!" and that's not the solution, I have one additional thing to add:

You are exactly right.  Frequency of drops alone does not fix the problem, because there is no rewarding reason to play these bounties (imo the rewards should provide the satisfactory feedback of powering up with a new weapon or mod, that is what keeps me repeating mission types in this game).  But moreover... why are we gating lore - lore!  - behind grind at all?  Not even a scavenger hunt like fish or Cephalon fragments, but actual grinding?  Lore is supposed to draw you in on a new experience: you get interested by the story and then stick around for the grind.  It's not supposed to be the end goal!  No one wants to play something they have NO attachment or interest in (because there is no available lore to it!) just to find out if it will be interesting or not!

There are two things that should happen.  Now that the journal fragments have been made into drop form, it would be just weird to make them freely available (or a scavenger hunt) and utterly remove the drop.  So... oddly siding with the people we both think weren't considering the full situation... I'm actually going to say: boost the drop rates.  A ton.  So that we can get the story RIGHT from the start and get invested in its lore.  Also, make the process of unlocking them separate from the actual bounty rewards list (like some people have said, dropping from the actual Ghouls themselves) to prevent them from just become pure reward dilution.  But then?  We need a reason, any reason, to be interested in doing these bounties.  So, to make the bounties at all appealing, you are right.  We need meaningful rewards that give us a reason and satisfaction to come back and do the bounties more than it takes to get Quartakk and Stubba (and I got three Stubba within a single run, so lol that was no reason to come back and do runs at all).

Edited by Maganar
Revised suggestion
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Il y a 17 heures, Maganar a dit :

You are exactly right.  Frequency of drops alone does not fix the problem, because there is no rewarding reason to play these bounties (imo the rewards should provide the satisfactory feedback of powering up with a new weapon or mod, that is what keeps me repeating mission types in this game).  But moreover... why are we gating lore - lore!  - behind grind at all?  Not even a scavenger hunt like fish or Cephalon fragments, but actual grinding?  Lore is supposed to draw you in on a new experience: you get interested by the story and then stick around for the grind.  It's not supposed to be the end goal!  No one wants to play something they have NO attachment or interest in (because there is no available lore to it!) just to find out if it will be interesting or not!

Bounties actually sucks. Not because the repetition of missions (this is easy farmable now), but because of the drops that are given in it. I mean, if you compare, in the long term Bounty 4 and Bounty 5, you can see that there's way more appealing rewards with way better drop rates in bounty 5. (comparison shown below)

Révélation

For a bounty 4, you can get (from the wiki) :

Pool A Pool B Pool C
Endo64 300 Endo 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Secrets 2% Endo64 300 Endo 17.35%
Endo64 300 Endo 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gemini Cross 8% Endo64 300 Endo 17%
Endo64 300 Endo 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gemini Cross 8.16% Endo64 300 Endo 22.97%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Reach 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Resolve 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 17.35%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Reach 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Resolve 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 22.97%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Eleventh Storm 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 17%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Eleventh Storm 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Finesse 2%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Sinking Talon 8.16%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 26.03% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Sinking Talon 8%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 19% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Pursuit 8.16%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Offense 2% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Pursuit 8%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 19.39% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9.18% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 16.33%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 19% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 16%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 26.03% Kuva64 100 Kuva 19% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 21.62%
CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9.18% Kuva64 100 Kuva 26.03% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 8%
CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9% Kuva64 100 Kuva 19.39% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 8.16%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 8% Kuva64 100 Kuva 16%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 10.96% Kuva64 100 Kuva 16.33%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 8.16% Kuva64 100 Kuva 21.62%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 8%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 10.81%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 8.16%


I marked the level of interest (by number of exemplar) of each reward with the following colors :
1-4 exemplars : you need them just once, because they are often mods or blueprints
5-10 exemplars : appealing to have, but not in infinitely high quantities (still worthy to farm for)
11-20 exemplars : still interesting, but can be farmed better elsewhere
more than 20 exemplars : really appealing to farm : in one hand, they can be only acquired from bounties/and or the plains (breath of eidolon, Cetus wisps), on the other hand, the can be acquired elsewhere, but with more difficulties (targeted relics like M1).

And bounty 5, which is the better for loot, to compare (from the wiki again) :

Pool A Pool B Pool C
Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7% Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7% Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7%
Blade Furax Wraith Left Gauntlet 8% Blade Furax Wraith Right Gauntlet 8% Blueprint2 Furax Wraith Blueprint 8%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Carving Mantis 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Swooping Falcon 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Twirling Spire 8%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 32.47% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 32.47% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 32.47%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 25% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 25% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 25%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 50% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 50% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 50%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25%
CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20%
CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97%
Kuva64 300 Kuva 7% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7%
Kuva64 300 Kuva 9.09% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7.37% Kuva64 300 Kuva 9.09%

I think that explains one major problem with bounties in general, now let's apply the same thing with the goul's event drop table (Same for probabilities for each one, just some drop changes like relic T1 and S7)

Révélation

Coming from the official warframe drop rates :

Level 15 - 25 Ghoul Bounty
Rotation A
  Stage 1
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Common (50.00%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Common (50.00%)
  Stage 2, Stage 3 of 4, and Stage 3 of 5
  Encrypted Journal Fragment Uncommon (18.18%)
  Hunter Munitions Uncommon (18.18%)
  Stubba Blueprint Uncommon (18.18%)
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Uncommon (22.73%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Uncommon (22.73%)
  Stage 4 of 5 and Final Stage
  Hunter Track Rare (6.78%)
  Encrypted Journal Fragment Uncommon (16.95%)
  Hunter Munitions Uncommon (16.95%)
  Stubba Blueprint Uncommon (16.95%)
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Uncommon (21.19%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Uncommon (21.19%)
 

the color code :
1-4 exemplars : you need them just once, because there are often mods or blueprints
5-10 exemplars : appealing to have, but not in infinitely high quantities (in this case, they are not targeted)
11-20 exemplars : still interesting, but can be farmed better elsewhere
more than 20 exemplars : really appealing to farm
I think you can all see the problem with these bounties and their drop rates.

Earlier, @[DE]Aidan said :

Le 22/12/2017 à 18:50, [DE]Aidan a dit :

Hey All,

Just chiming in here to shed a little more light on the Ghouls + Lore situation. As @DustyFlash has pointed out in their post above, the Ghouls will be a recurring occurrence on the Plains, they are not treated like other 1-time events. That means that there is no need to discover all of the fragments this time around, they will be back every couple weeks or so! 

Happy hunting!

So yes, THERE IS no need to farm them at once, but it won't resolve the problem of a RIDICULOUSLY UNINTERESTING drop table nor the fact that RNG lore is unacceptable.

Edited by Finara
add the final drop table / [DE]Aidan quotation / orthographic correction
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7 hours ago, Finara said:

Bounties actually sucks. Not because the repetition of missions (this is easy farmable now), but because of the drops that are given in it. I mean, if you compare, in the long term Bounty 4 and Bounty 5, you can see that there's way more appealing rewards with way better drop rates in bounty 5. (comparison shown below)

  Hide contents

For a bounty 4, you can get (from the wiki) :

Pool A Pool B Pool C
Endo64 300 Endo 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Secrets 2% Endo64 300 Endo 17.35%
Endo64 300 Endo 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gemini Cross 8% Endo64 300 Endo 17%
Endo64 300 Endo 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gemini Cross 8.16% Endo64 300 Endo 22.97%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Reach 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Resolve 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 17.35%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Reach 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Resolve 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 22.97%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Eleventh Storm 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Augur Message 17%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Eleventh Storm 8.16% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Finesse 2%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Vigor 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Sinking Talon 8.16%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 26.03% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 19.39% FusionCorePackSilversingle Sinking Talon 8%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Gladiator Rush 19% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 19% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Pursuit 8.16%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Offense 2% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo M1 Relic 26.03% FusionCorePackSilversingle Vigilante Pursuit 8%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 19.39% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9.18% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 16.33%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 19% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 16%
VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo S7 Relic 26.03% Kuva64 100 Kuva 19% VoidProjectionsSilverD Neo H1 Relic 21.62%
CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9.18% Kuva64 100 Kuva 26.03% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 8%
CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 9% Kuva64 100 Kuva 19.39% CetusWisp64 Cetus Wisp 8.16%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 8% Kuva64 100 Kuva 16%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 10.96% Kuva64 100 Kuva 16.33%
FocusLens1Rank sq Madurai Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Vazarin Lens 8.16% Kuva64 100 Kuva 21.62%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 8%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 8% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 10.81%
FocusLens1Rank sq Unairu Lens 10.96% FocusLens1Rank sq Zenurik Lens 8.16% FocusLens1Rank sq Naramon Lens 8.16%


I marked the level of interest (by number of exemplar) of each reward with the following colors :
1-4 exemplars : you need them just once, because they are often mods or blueprints
5-10 exemplars : appealing to have, but not in infinitely high quantities (still worthy to farm for)
11-20 exemplars : still interesting, but can be farmed better elsewhere
more than 20 exemplars : really appealing to farm : in one hand, they can be only acquired from bounties/and or the plains (breath of eidolon, Cetus wisps), on the other hand, the can be acquired elsewhere, but with more difficulties (targeted relics like M1).

And bounty 5, which is the better for loot, to compare (from the wiki again) :

Pool A Pool B Pool C
Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7% Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7% Blueprint2 Eidolon Lens Blueprint 7%
Blade Furax Wraith Left Gauntlet 8% Blade Furax Wraith Right Gauntlet 8% Blueprint2 Furax Wraith Blueprint 8%
FusionCorePackSilversingle Carving Mantis 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Swooping Falcon 8% FusionCorePackSilversingle Twirling Spire 8%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 32.47% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 32.47% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 32.47%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 25% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 25% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 25%
VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V7 Relic 50% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi N5 Relic 50% VoidProjectionsGoldD Axi V6 Relic 50%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 32.47%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 50%
BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25% BreathOfTheEidolon 5 Breath Of The Eidolon 25%
CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 20%
CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97% CetusWisp64 2 Cetus Wisp 25.97%
Kuva64 300 Kuva 7% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7%
Kuva64 300 Kuva 9.09% Kuva64 300 Kuva 7.37% Kuva64 300 Kuva 9.09%

I think that explains one major problem with bounties in general, now let's apply the same thing with the goul's event drop table (Same for probabilities for each one, just some drop changes like relic T1 and S7)

  Hide contents

Coming from the official warframe drop rates :

Level 15 - 25 Ghoul Bounty
Rotation A
  Stage 1
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Common (50.00%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Common (50.00%)
  Stage 2, Stage 3 of 4, and Stage 3 of 5
  Encrypted Journal Fragment Uncommon (18.18%)
  Hunter Munitions Uncommon (18.18%)
  Stubba Blueprint Uncommon (18.18%)
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Uncommon (22.73%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Uncommon (22.73%)
  Stage 4 of 5 and Final Stage
  Hunter Track Rare (6.78%)
  Encrypted Journal Fragment Uncommon (16.95%)
  Hunter Munitions Uncommon (16.95%)
  Stubba Blueprint Uncommon (16.95%)
  100 Endo Known Issue (0.00%)
  Lith T1 Relic Uncommon (21.19%)
  Hunter Adrenaline Uncommon (21.19%)
 

the color code :
1-4 exemplars : you need them just once, because there are often mods or blueprints
5-10 exemplars : appealing to have, but not in infinitely high quantities (in this case, they are not targeted)
11-20 exemplars : still interesting, but can be farmed better elsewhere
more than 20 exemplars : really appealing to farm
I think you can all see the problem with these bounties and their drop rates.

Earlier, @[DE]Aidan said :

So yes, THERE IS no need to farm them at once, but it won't resolve the problem of a RIDICULOUSLY UNINTERESTING drop table nor the fact that RNG lore is unacceptable.

This I agree with, aside from that the lore should not be RNG, if the journals have to be there, they should be more common, and the drop table also has far too many things in the  drop chances competing with the lore pages, that you only need one of, and of course, almost all of us already HAVE the hunter mods, from the last event.
This is resulting in a drop table that's more effectively summarized as:

wave 1:
50% chance items we only need one of, so basically the same as no drop at all very quickly.
50% chance T1 relic(or S7 for the high level bounty, always this exact relic, not even a random one)

waves 2-4:
21% chance T1 relic(or S7 for the high level version)
17% chance journal fragment(the thing we are here for a TON of)
62% chance items we only need one of(effectively nothing)


Plus the lore page duplicates is becoming a problem.. I assume that's what the empty wave rewards are, and the feeling that I should be soloing the event to keep the drop chance stable isn't a good feeling.

I am glad the endo drop chance is 0% though, I really don't need more endo, that's not what i'm doing these bounties for.

Edited by enizer
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb enizer:

Plus the lore page duplicates is becoming a problem.. I assume that's what the empty wave rewards are, and the feeling that I should be soloing the event to keep the drop chance stable isn't a good feeling.

Either I'm incredibly lucky (which I don't believe) or empty rewards are a different problem than duplicate entries. I only had one empty reward on my second bounty and another bounty with no rewards right from the start, so I'd go with the second option. Granted, I stopped playing the bounties as soon as I had all entries, so I don't know what it'd look like if I got one now, but until that point every journal I got also (partially) unlocked a lore entry.

Edited by Bibliothekar
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Il y a 13 heures, enizer a dit :

17% chance journal fragment(the thing we are here for a TON of)

At this rate, we'll be in 2019 than most of the player won't get them complete.
Worse, @[DE]Aidan said "they will be back every couple weeks or so!", do you know what that means ?

-> more annoying encounters when fishing and/or mining (infested were annoying, but manageable, ghouls are frustrating AND annoying)

-> same useless drop tables (I think they won't change as the event will be back)

-> absolutely no benefice in hunter mod set (look at NERF 2.5 - you won't get any plat from them, btw)

-> an increasingly bored community of the event.

So yes, I'm saying it again, you are right one one point, @[DE]Aidan, "there is no need to discover all of the fragments", but this isn't an excuse to create an RNG lore to keep players on a event with such a really poor drop table.

Edited by Finara
looks like the verb "retard" is moderated, well done moderating list
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16 hours ago, Finara said:

At this rate, we'll be in 2019 than most of the player won't get them complete.
Worse, @[DE]Aidan said "they will be back every couple weeks or so!", do you know what that means ?

-> more annoying encounters when fishing and/or mining (infested were annoying, but manageable, ghouls are frustrating AND annoying)

-> same useless drop tables (I think they won't change as the event will be back)

-> absolutely no benefice in hunter mod set (look at NERF 2.5 - you won't get any plat from them, btw)

-> an increasingly bored community of the event.

So yes, I'm saying it again, you are right one one point, @[DE]Aidan, "there is no need to discover all of the fragments", but this isn't an excuse to create an RNG lore to keep players on a event with such a really poor drop table.

Honestly, I started an entire topic just on my concerns that the Ghouls event is going to be a failure no one likes and the more I run across extra details, the more convinced I am this is going to build into a progressively more disappointing disaster with time.  Let me summarize here some of the things I said in that topic, as well as some thoughts that have occurred to me over time.

> Bounty drops for the Ghouls are insufferably awful.  I managed to get four - yes, that's right, four - Stubba blueprints on the very first run I did of a bounty with that item in the drop table... all of which are completely useless after you have one.  Over the entire event (granted, it has been so disappointing I have not done very many of its bounties, often opting toward ordinary Plains bounties) I have yet to see ONE journal fragment.  Yes, there is RNG at play here, but this should illustrate how easy it is to get everything desirable with low effort (You don't even HAVE to do the bounties, Stubba and Quartakk drop in the actual kill reward tables) and yet insanely hard to get the lore that is supposed to make it interesting in the first place.

> Hunter mod value depreciation really smarts.  We were led to believe during Plaguestar that this was going to be a mod that would come back, but only with limited frequency.  Now it's virtually perma-farmable.  I farmed five complete sets, during that event (because grinding was FUN thanks to the points I could spend afterward on MEANINGFUL rewards) and for what?  So I can melt them into endo?  While I still don't regret playing so much Plaguestar because it was done so well overall, it feels like the rug was pulled out from under me as I put some fair effort into getting full sets for which I now have no use.

> The event comes back every couple weeks.  Which is interesting, since the event has stayed active for over a couple weeks.  I guess that means Ghouls are going to be around more often than they will not be around, which completely takes the uniqueness out of the encounter, which was about the only thing this event had going for it.  We've made abysmally slow progress dispelling the Ghouls... maybe that should tip off DE we find little to redeem this poorly implemented event?

> Ghouls are incredibly ANNOYING to fight against.  In the low levels we face them at least, they aren't much of a threat... but they completely rob you of all input in chain-cc combos if you do anything other than cheese them.  They are easy to cheese.  Really easy.  But it means I simply don't get to play the game and instead have to watch myself get beat up by some sideshow freaks unless I want to cheese them... but if cheese them, they pose no threat.  So I'm not really playing the game either, then, just engaging in tedium and trivializing the encounter.  My options are to not play the game by letting them rob me of input or not play the game by cheesing them so hard it's more of a chore than a game.  Boring.  Annoying.  Ridiculous.

> Absurd codex entry goals to meet if trying to complete scans.  Just today, for the first time, I managed to scan a Ghoul Alpha before my team insta-gibbed it.  And no, I can't do it solo because last time I tried that I got a reproducible bug that only occurred in solo play that stopped bounty progression (and I am too sick of this event to further verify its cause and create a topic for DE, I'm sorry).  And what did I discover?  To complete the entry I need... not 3 scans (which I'd hoped and would have been reasonable), not 10 or 12 scans (which I'd expected because the other numbers required were so insane in my opinion, and I expected something equally high), but TWENTY scans.  Twenty.  Of a target you can only get a MAXIMUM of one time per bounty stage and which often dies on spawn... and of which there are multiple variants to scan as separate entries.  I don't care how often this event comes back, this is utterly out of line with the rest of the game.  Alphas are, as I understand it, equivalent to Eximus variants (and honestly even rarer and harder to find) which normally have 3 scans to completion, not 20.  What were developers thinking when they picked that number?

Ugh.  I don't like bringing a whole bunch of complaints up before a development team I like so much, because DE has impressed me over time, but... seriously?  What went on with this event?

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