[Ghouls] RNG lore is NOT acceptable!

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

I grinded out the lore in the first ghoul invasion, its whatever, but its not that hard to get done.

you arent everyone else. people have different time schedules and responsibilities. while you got it done thats good. but RNG lore is unacceptable by ALL means. RNG just for the sake of RNG? no thanks. Revise it.

Edited January 20, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Tarak]

Have to admit... I'm usually a bit a DE apologist, but this felt like a blatant attempt to keep people (like me) that only casted about the lore after a few runs coming back again and again... Just resulted in me looking up the lore on the wiki and never hunting ghouls again... Hope we see a drastic change so I can feel okay about going and getting them without feeling disgusted...

[Bibliothekar]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb [DE]Aidan:

we have read your issues, particularly with the infrequency of drops and the overall time spent trying to collect them all, and have requested another revision of the drop tables to hopefully address these issues.

Could that revision also include splitting the relic drops into multiple (and newer) relics, please? I have more Lith T1 than anything else and all from Ghoul bounties.

[SordidDreams]

12 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey there,

As I said, we have asked for a revision of the drop tables and will do our best to keep you all updated about upcoming changes to the system. I would just like to remind you that we obviously value community feedback, but prefer when it is worded thoughtfully, this includes tone as well. :)

We as players obviously value the game you are providing, but prefer when it is designed thoughtfully. That is to say when it doesn't insult us and waste our time by locking scraps of lore behind a ridiculous RNG grind. I get why grind exists in WF, namely to sell boosters. But there is no booster we can buy to make the journal fragments drop more frequently, so why, for the love of God, did you make it so tedious and frustrating!? It feels like an event designed to sell boosters, except you forgot to put that option in. Plague Star had the same problem, and it took you what, a couple days to put out a fix that increased the rewards? It's been a month for the Ghouls with no change.

Just give a guaranteed fragment for an easy bounty, two for a hard one. The drop table is a few lines in a database file somewhere, making the change should not take more than a few minutes. It's not rocket science.

[AVSManfred]

12 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Good to hear. You might want to relay the following to whoever decided on how long the acquisition of the lore fragments should take players: There's a sharp falloff in regards to making players grind for rewards with very low drop chances, especially if they need a boatload of the same and only have one viable alternative way of playing to accomplish that. It's a recipe for causing frustration and burnout. My opinion is that should you want to work against burnout and frustration but still make players grind for a prolonged amount of time without (>10 average play sessions), you're better off increasing the drop chance of the item and compensate with the overall number of items required in order to retain the total time invested. Players feel less burned out if they sense that they're making progress.

If player needs 10 of a given item with a drop chance of 50% from a mission, with each mission taking 5 minutes, they'll have play for 100 minutes, with items dropping every 10 minutes on average.

If they only need 5 of that item, but the drop chance was 25%, again with a mission taking 5 minutes, they'll also have to spend 100 minutes in total, on average, however the progress interval - the time between a player experiencing a progress based reward - increases to 20 minutes.

Now add to that the subconscious pressure of having only a limited time to accomplish that task until the mission becomes unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time, and you amplified any negative feelings of stress caused by low progress intervals.

I hoped you would have learned from the game design flaws of the old Void and realized that stringing players along with small breadcrumbs is a generally more enjoyable experience than starving them out for hours and days before shoving a 6 course meal into their faces. There's a place for ultra rare stuff that only drops every once in a blue moon, but those items should not be of a nature that makes players feel they need it.

 

Well old Void wan't that terrible of a system, at least it was allowing to prepare some key for upcoming new prime access yet now not enough we have to grind for new relics every time new prime access comes out we also have to hope for RNG to give us what we need from relic and boosting chances by refining relic dosen't help as much as it seems, like for me this system is already so RNG heavy it demands some sort of RNG bypass, something that would allow us to get specific part  by cost of specific amount of something we will have to grind for but will be getting anyways, most of the other MMOs have such RNG bypass on RNG based rewards to encourage players to keep playing so they might get what they need one way or another, i think Relic system needs something like that so it could .allow for newer players to get easier access to Vaulted frames, which are currently  available only by spending heavy amounts of platinum for the parts or by hoping for them being unvaulted again, at the same time giving players who want parts for use to craft, and no other purposes good but also time demanding alternative.

[Bibliothekar]

@AVSManfred, this isn't tumblr, mate, you're not just allowed but even encouraged to use periods and line breaks.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Bibliothekar

[AVSManfred]

2 hours ago, Bibliothekar said:

@AVSManfred, this isn't tumblr, mate, you're not just allowed but even encouraged to use periods and line breaks.

Oh well, anyways trick is that i personally think that old void wasn't bad, also relic system supposed to be solution for limited space in Void drop table yet we still get old Primes vaulted what makesthis excuse perfectly invalid, but well less about this, this topic isn't about Void Keys system vs Relic system and better if this won't intercept it.

[Kimimoto]

3 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

we have to grind for new relics every time new prime access comes out

Yes, the grind has to be somewhere. 

It takes way less time now anyway, save up Syndicate standing and Conclave standing. 

[Gandergear]

19 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey there,

As I said, we have asked for a revision of the drop tables and will do our best to keep you all updated about upcoming changes to the system. I would just like to remind you that we obviously value community feedback, but prefer when it is worded thoughtfully, this includes tone as well. :)

Players are unhappy with you, you dont get the priviledge to be snippy back when theyve been ignored a month. Prompt action and transparency is paramount to keeping the playerbase nice and friendly.

[WingedCrusade]

At least somebody said something. The people in here are way too impatient sometimes. The amount of times DE has pulled through compared to the times they haven’t is seriously outweighed by the times they have. If Aidan says they’re looking at ways to revise the table then I believe him!

Is it really that hard for people to take that at face value and wait? Jesus there’s even a guy comparing DE to the WORST company of the gaming industry. Nobody’s worse than EA.

[phoenix1992]

21 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all,

Popping back in here to just make a few notes. Firstly, the return of the Ghouls on the Plains is a good sign for us. It helps us know that our systemic implementation of this type of recurring feature works and that it is one less thing for us to worry about in the future. As we continue to ramp up development again after our holiday break, this is something we are going to keep looking into.

As for the returning complaints over the Ghoul related lore journal fragments, we have read your issues, particularly with the infrequency of drops and the overall time spent trying to collect them all, and have requested another revision of the drop tables to hopefully address these issues.

Thanks!

So..

About shoving tons of Stubba and Quartakk blueprints on us?
And the fact that the event drops 0 things of interest for people that have bothered with the last 2 events?

[BethTheBean]

Good afternoon, Pumpkins!

The Ghoul Invasion on Cetus started up again last night. I grinded for a hour this morning, and guess what didn't drop? 

Ghoul Lore fragments.

This is the same problem, when the Ghoul invasion was introduced to Cetus last month. Please fix this, DE.

Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

[Fihuren]

3 hours ago, WingedCrusade said:

At least somebody said something. The people in here are way too impatient sometimes. The amount of times DE has pulled through compared to the times they haven’t is seriously outweighed by the times they have. If Aidan says they’re looking at ways to revise the table then I believe him!

Is it really that hard for people to take that at face value and wait? Jesus there’s even a guy comparing DE to the WORST company of the gaming industry. Nobody’s worse than EA.

I totally agree that these ungrateful guys are just idious and that DE is one of the only studios that looks attentively at their community feedback. The only problem is that they sent this event during their holidays so they were able to fix it in time (causing major frustration).

[BlackCoMerc]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:49 PM, [DE]Aidan said:

<we have asked for a revision of the drop tables> SNIP

Asked? Asked WHO? You're THE DEV TEAM. Either fix it, or dont. But please, dont come here TALKING ABOUT reducing grind again. You've spent two years talking about reducing it while actually increasing it at every opportunity.

Talking on this topic is done. Or ought to be. Either fix it. Or dont. But stop CLAIMING you're looking into it. Please. Its reaching the point of condescension. 

Or...is this implicit admission that loot tables, drop chances and the reliance of RNG are no longer up to DE to decide...?

[BlackCoMerc]

On 1/20/2018 at 10:22 PM, ProfessorLitmus said:

-Snip-

I'm not even criticizing anyone. Least of all Aidan. He's just that: A mouthpiece. And I dont mean that with condescension. Its his job to speak on behalf of DE about the game. Literally his job to be the company mouthpiece. And there's nothing wrong with that, per se.

What's WRONG is the message: Either Aidan is speaking on behalf of DE. The company. As a whole. And if that IS the case, then...who does DE have to ASK for permission to change drop tables IN THEIR OWN GAME?

Or, we could interpret this another way: Aidan is speaking on behalf of a faction within DE that is itself in disagreement with these loot tables, and, presumably, other similar decisions regarding RNG and drop tables. Which speaks to a schism within the company and possibly even lost confidence in its decision making at the upper levels. 

Now, both of these are supposition. But they are both solid theories based on Aidan's own post and the wording therein. 

So I ask, legitmately...who does Aidan speak on behalf of? Is it the whole company? DE as an entity, as is the case for most spokespersons/community reps? And if so, why does DE, as a whole, need to ask permission to change loot tables? 

Or does Aidan speak on behalf of SOME PEOPLE within DE? If so, why would DE allow a spokesperson to differentiate between their person views and those of the company leadership, publicly and while working on behalf of the company to communicate with its customer community? And who is the faction in disagreement with this, and presumably other, similar decisions, how much clout do they carry within DE and what effect is this logically presumed schism having on DE, Warframe and the game's direction?

In other words, this is how rumors get started. Please, DEAidan, Rebecca, someone...clear this up and answer some questions for us. Because I for one am placing my wallet on lockdown where Warframe is concerned until I confirm just who it is I am ultimately supporting with my money, what direction they want to take the game and that a schism within the development team isnt going to drag it under. I dont mean to be a jerk, seriously; I just want to know I am not squandering investments I make in my entertainment options by either supporting a Chinese grocer who plans to put in minimum viable effort and milk the game, or a company in the process of in fighting that is likely to destroy the game, or at the very least dramatically slow development.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 1/20/2018 at 10:39 PM, ProfessorLitmus said:

-Snip-

Yeah this is my concern. DE have talked for years - literally, for years - about WANTING to reduce the grind. And the frustration. Heck, Steve even slipped in a small vacuum for PoE. Oddly enough, I believe that DE do WANT to reduce the grind.

But I dont think they are ALLOWED to do so. 

Which is a shame. Chinese and Korean game development philosophies dont work here in the West. This isnt racism. It isnt bigotry. Its not even about them BEING Chinese and/or Korean. 

This is about the design philosophies that underlie games from that part of the world. Its one of endless, grueling grind, minuscule drop chances and the ability to pay to bypass both of these things. Ultimately culminating, as we all know, in a game that is little more than a storefront with, as I have said before, a barely relevant and largely pointless interactive mode in which you CAN obtain the same rewards you would pay for...IF you're the sort of gambling addict or masochist prone to self punishment, but which literally no reasonable human being would bother pursuing because a 0.1% drop chance is literally not worth bothering over. This is Chinese game development philosophy.

And we all know how well that fares here in the West. And that was largely BEFORE Steam put a year's worth of entertainment on sale for a total of $50 or less thrice annually, so lord knows why anyone here would ever even consider such games now, with such a wide array of quality, fun-first titles available for so cheap so much of the year. 

This wont work in the West. Unless of course your goal is to buy low, milk a game for what its worth and sell the stock you bought before you drive the dev team into the ground and the game into non-existence. Because not only will this philosophy not work here, in the long term...but anyone who has bothered doing even a modicum of research KNOWS already that the best you can hope for is milking a few addicts dry of their income before the game dies a miserable, lonely death, having been abandoned by players who wish you'd spent half as much on development as you did PCGamer puff pieces penned by people who have obviously never touched the game a day in their lives and spend most of the article explaining to themselves how the things your marketing department described work in the game just to meet the word count. 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

12 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

Well old Void wan't that terrible of a system

Nothing can make up for staying literal days worth of mission time in the same tileset doing the exact same things. You want to prefarm for new prime stuff? You can do that right now, too, and arguable it's even easier. I'll take the vault system over having to deal with horrendous burnout every three months any day of the week.

[PatternistSlave]

It's hard to argue it being a bad thing when it's the only reason I do the bounties at all.

[Fihuren]

il y a 14 minutes, PatternistSlave a dit :

It's hard to argue it being a bad thing when it's the only reason I do the bounties at all.

Me either. I really hope that they are gonna bring the changes ASAP.

[BootScoot]

Personally, I wouldn't mind this particular grind so much if I could trade standing for fragments, if they can't be a guaranteed drop or something. Right now journals have the same drop rate as stubba and quartakk but I've gotten about 15 journals compared to 29 stubba blueprints and 10 quartakk blueprints. I know that's to be expected with RNG but it can be really frustrating to go 5 to 10 missions only getting something you don't want when it's got a about a 1/5 drop chance.

[LordSky00]

While I am also not a fan of RNG-part-of-a-fragment-set lore bounty reward, I was able to grind it out on the first run of this event. It took more effort than I would like, but if lore fragments were easier to obtain, I would not mind it too much. Heck, I would even prefer to get lore this way IF it were easier to grind.

[Bibliothekar]

Am 1.1.2018 um 19:34 schrieb Bibliothekar:

Granted, I stopped playing the bounties as soon as I had all entries, so I don't know what it'd look like if I got one now, but until that point every journal I got also (partially) unlocked a lore entry.

Update on that one: Played another bounty with friends and when they got a lore fragment, I got a weapon bp instead. So empty rewards are simply broken rewards, not duplicates of fragments. If you're done with the journals, you get a replacement reward (dunno if it's always the weapon or a proper second roll on the drop table).

[BethTheBean]

23 hours ago, GrazewoundZero said:

Good afternoon, Pumpkins!

The Ghoul Invasion on Cetus started up again last night. I grinded for a hour this morning, and guess what didn't drop? 

Ghoul Lore fragments.

This is the same problem, when the Ghoul invasion was introduced to Cetus last month. Please fix this, DE.

Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

Good afternoon, Pumpkins!

The ghouls won't spawn now. 

An automatic fail at 1/2 burial grounds cleared, or a 21/20 count without the Ghoul Alpha spawning.

It's now clear, that we're playing the bugged invasion from last month.

Edited January 21, 2018 by GrazewoundZero

[Giantconch]

Unfortunately this round of the event will probably end before any changes are made, so even if anything is changed we won't be able to try it out and see if its good enough for another few weeks.

 

Next time this event comes around, if theres no changes, I definitely won't be playing at all.

 

Friend of mine spent 2 hours running this junk event and got 0 journal fragments. This is an unacceptable level of grind for LORE. For a goddamn story.

 

DE, I know you guys see this thread, the response from Aidan shows that. Remove Journal Fragments from the drop tables and put them as an end of bounty reward WITHOUT any level of RNG required for obtaining them. Even if you guys do THAT it will still mean running this boring nonsense 52 times to get the story told. Is 52 runs somehow not enough? Is that not enough of a forced grind for a story? What makes anyone believe that you should run the same repetetive garbage more than 52 times just to have a @(*()&#036; story unlocked?

 

I've been trying to screw with the RNG, returning to my ship after a few runs without fragments, clearing the session and starting a new one for a new seed but it doesnt work. Using RNG to get a story unlocked in the codex is raw goddamn garbage and you should NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. Is DE so hard up for ideas about what a good reward is that they now have to resort to locking lore behind a grindwall thinking thats what it takes to get people to keep playing their game?

[MirageKnight]

18 hours ago, BootScoot said:

I know that's to be expected with RNG but it can be really frustrating to go 5 to 10 missions only getting something you don't want when it's got a about a 1/5 drop chance.

It shouldn't even be RNG. Up until now, lore has always been something we've discovered while scouring the maps, be it the fish statues, Ordis' memory fragments, Kuria artifacts, etc. It's a nice reward for choosing to take your time to investigate all the nooks and cranies lying off the beaten path.

What DE has done atm has broken with that enjoyable tradition and set a precedent for the future, which I firmly believe most players will not find agreeable.

Seriously DE, why be so stingy with this lore all of a sudden? You had a really good thing going previously and now you hide lore behind tedious grind which you should most people hate. What you're doing is making no sense at all.