Ghouls Highlight Everything Wrong with Enemy Design

[BlackCoMerc]

The Ghouls are pretty cool, conceptually. And I like the way they seem part of the world. Tunneling. Interacting with the earth. Its pretty cool. In fact, I wouldnt even mind seeing them pop up unexpectedly on other Earth tiles from time to time. Maybe even Mars, too, as a surprise addition.

But they have a MAJOR flaw, in that they highlight everything wrong with Warframe enemy design. 

Ghouls are nothing but a constant spam of grappling hooks, knockdown AoE and AoE toxin clouds. In a Ghoul Nest, you basically either run Trinity/Rhino, or suffer the constant tedium of yet more input robbing enemies. I tried Inaros. Once. And spent half of the first bounty mission bouncing around like a ping pong ball, unable to even control my character. Rolling didnt help. Constant movement didnt help. Because the Ghouls can cover A LOT of ground very quickly, have long grappling hook reach, are hard to see through the grass and have very wide AoE radius attacks, it was a miserable session of watching more than playing. 

Enough of this really is enough. If you cannot design enemies that challenge players without robbing us of input constantly, your game is broken. Its time to acknowledge and fix the issues, instead of trolling your players by turning battles into non interactive movies about the misery and suffering of their avatar. How in the world do you plan to make IPS matter in a game where enemies either rob us of the ability to damage them immediately on seeing us, or die in 0.1 seconds to grossly overpowered players? Why would I CARE how I proc an enemy, if their player trolling attacks require me to first hard CC and then immediately kill them the moment they spawn?

Your game needs a game wide balance pass. Its high time to acknowledge the fact.

[TiberiumDreams]

First and foremost: Engage from a distance if you can.

Second: I actually ran a high level version of the Ghoul bounty and found myself doing surprisingly well with Mirage Prime, using a build that focuses more on the discoball and being able to shrug off hits to the face and return in kind. Hell, I was even testing out that Quartakk think while I was doing it. Perhaps it was the nature of my build that I didn't notice this? 

Third: Calling it "Everything wrong with enemy design" is a gross misinterpretation of the entire game by suggesting that this hand to hand combatants that they added are a major problem that is apparently game wide. They're a special type of enemy and they require special tactics to fight. The closest things we've had to them before now are the Scorpions, Specific kinds of Bursa (Drover?) and the Ancients. 

Also, your melee has a block function. Use it. 

[Yuri_Doujinshi]

I ran mirage for both bounties (clone build, I only ever pressed 1 that game), and didn't get hooked once. I had a bigger problem with the cold/toxin proc clouds and the flamethrower guy, but just jumping around made all those rather easy to avoid.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Yuri_Doujinshi

[SquireAngel]

Actually, there's a crap ton of ways to deal with the ghouls. Vauban's bastilles were working for a buddy of mine, and I was personally using Hydroid prime's 1 to knock them down, Nyx's 3 to confuse them, Titania's spellbind for immunity, Penta Tether Grenades, Nidus was doing fine, and this is just y own experience in the higher tier mission with a few runs. They can be annoying with their CC, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it.

 

[Kuestenjung]

I played several Ghoul bounties with Nekros and Oberon and had no such problems, even with 10 or more ghouls around.

I agree with you that the ghoul theme infact is quite nice, but I think they need a buff, right now they are nothing more then just cannon fodder. They only serve as diversion regarding looks.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Kuestenjung

[BlackCoMerc]

8 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

Actually, there's a crap ton of ways to deal with the ghouls. Vauban's bastilles were working for a buddy of mine, and I was personally using Hydroid prime's 1 to knock them down, Nyx's 3 to confuse them, Titania's spellbind for immunity, Penta Tether Grenades, Nidus was doing fine, and this is just y own experience in the higher tier mission with a few runs. They can be annoying with their CC, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it.

 

Yes. There are a ton if ways to deal. I went high level with Rhino Prine and never took damage. At all.

On the other hand...should we continue to see the cheese/be cheesed design? Isn't it time we fix this?

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said:

I played several Ghoul bounties with Nekros and Oberon and had no such problems, even with 10 or more ghouls around.

I agree with you that the ghoul theme infact is quite nice, but I think they need a buff, right now they are nothing more then just cannon fodder. They only serve as diversion regarding looks.

This is actually true. They aren't exactly tough to kill. And I live their movement and animations. Top notch stuff.

My ONLY gripe is yet more toxic Aura/grappling hooks/knockdown spam crap. And to be honest,bi even like the toxin clouds, it fits the enemies and requires situational awareness. 

It's just the knockdown spam stuff I have had enough of with Warframe... otherwise, I like the Ghouls, they are pretty fun and I hope they stay around.

[SquireAngel]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Yes. There are a ton if ways to deal. I went high level with Rhino Prine and never took damage. At all.

On the other hand...should we continue to see the cheese/be cheesed design? Isn't it time we fix this?

I think the need to be creative and think about our engagement tactics is what keeps warframe from becoming too repetitive. If you think about say...Skyrim, if you ran around in god mod all game in that, it's be pretty boring after awhile. There's no need to create better gear, to prioritize targets. You can literally just walk through the entire game without a single care. If there's no risk, then the reward of success loses meaning and it's like we never achieved it at all. I certainly hope that we don't see enemies that become so meta it's basically instagib, but I don't see the ghouls as that. There are ways to counter them, and even when you aren't they're still not too overpowered as to rob you of your ability to fight back. 

[LameLaYou]

They're not hard-hitters, they're built to make life difficult by disrupting your combat. I guess if you're going to be in the fray surrounded by a bunch of these units then life is going to be difficult for you. 

But as others have mentioned, there are various ways to deal with them aside from killing them straight off the bat and most of them involve disrupting them before they disrupt you. You could adopt a more precautionary playstyle while dealing with large groups of them - laying down some preemptive defensive/CC abilities like Bastille, Decoy, Snowglobe, Spectorage, or even just adopting a more cautionary position before the heat of the fight erupts should make things better.

[Kuestenjung]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb BlackCoMerc:

Yes. There are a ton if ways to deal. I went high level with Rhino Prine and never took damage. At all.

On the other hand...should we continue to see the cheese/be cheesed design? Isn't it time we fix this?

You said it´s only possible with Rhino/Trinity and weren´t able to fight them properly with Inaro, then I told you I did it with no problems with Nekros and Oberon and would do it with no problems with any other frame that suits me and then you call it cheese without even knowing my loadout?

If you aren´t able but others are then the problem lies with you.

Yes this game has many balancing flaws but ghouls are none of them.

[Snib]

1 hour ago, Kuestenjung said:

I played several Ghoul bounties with Nekros and Oberon and had no such problems, even with 10 or more ghouls around.

I agree with you that the ghoul theme infact is quite nice, but I think they need a buff, right now they are nothing more then just cannon fodder. They only serve as diversion regarding looks.

Same, and agreed, was a bit disappointed after how they presented them on stream. Guess we're just too over-geared.

6 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said:

If you aren´t able but others are then the problem lies with you.

My guess is he's standing still.

Remember, if you're getting hit in Warframe, you're doing it wrong (unless trying to get energy via Rage).

[Volinus7]

There's a shortcut to rectify enemy design and faction balance. 

Let players play as enemy factions and fight other players. 

 

 

In Warframe your decision in the mission will have less and less meaning as your progression goes deeper compared to the arsenal you chose before the mission started, it's like you can just build a powerful build and click auto play button, not much different from those mobile games with auto play button. 

Under the hood Warframe is a game that promotes trivialization, balance relationships between players and enemies are so unfair either mechanically or by bad scaling curves, this unfairness is used to drive players into building shells(cheesy builds) to protect them from bad game designs(those bad designs are intentional as a part of conditioning system) but some people misinterpreted it as "git gud", since it's comparable to a two-variable problem it cannot be solved by just one equation so talking about one side like nerfing a certain enemy is pretty pointless both sides must be fixed simultaneously. 

In short, Warframe is broken but trying pretty hard to prevent you from realizing it instead of actually fixing the issues because fixing might affect driving force behind progression. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Volinus7

[Maganar]

I wrote a longer topic discussing a larger variety of concerns over the style of this event as a whole available at the link below.  May not interest you, but there is a section devoted to my concerns over Ghouls as enemies.  That may be of interest to people on this topic.

To summarize the relevant parts here:  I have a hard time accepting that DE designed the Ghouls as hardcore disruptor units that are just immense crowd control bombs.  Plains is already heavier on hard cc (like knockdowns and Blast procs) than other zones in the game.  Ghouls notch things up even higher and there's a point where it's starting to get out of control.  I'm concerned things may reach that point if DE doesn't reevaluate.  I conclude that Ghouls are acceptable, but frustrating and unsatisfying.  They also forgo some of their cool thematic design elements just to double down on the crowd control overkill (I'm thinking primarily of the death cloud Cold proc) just to ensure they are the most over-the-top crowd control units they can possibly be.  To be truly interesting, enemies have to do more than just stun-lock chain-cc you over and over (and DE's enemy Cold procs are borderline stuns they are so powerful).  That gets old, quickly, and it doesn't even serve the thematic image of these zombie-like enemies.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

You said it´s only possible with Rhino/Trinity and weren´t able to fight them properly with Inaro, then I told you I did it with no problems with Nekros and Oberon and would do it with no problems with any other frame that suits me and then you call it cheese without even knowing my loadout?

If you aren´t able but others are then the problem lies with you.

Yes this game has many balancing flaws but ghouls are none of them.

Didn't mean to insinuate that cheese is the only way. I was in a rush. 

My big complaint about Ghouls - my only complaint, as I like them overall - are the control robbing attacks. 

We don't need more of it. It was cheap before, and there was no reason to bring in yet another enemy that resorts to this sort of thing. 

If it werent for the cheap input robbing, the Ghouls would be amazing. As it is, despite this, they're a pretty cool addition, especially given their generous and mostly rewarding drop tables.

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This is actually true. They aren't exactly tough to kill. And I live their movement and animations. Top notch stuff.

My ONLY gripe is yet more toxic Aura/grappling hooks/knockdown spam crap. And to be honest,bi even like the toxin clouds, it fits the enemies and requires situational awareness. 

It's just the knockdown spam stuff I have had enough of with Warframe... otherwise, I like the Ghouls, they are pretty fun and I hope they stay around.

As inaros - sand blind.

If not, blocking with melee prevents so many knock down mechanics in the game, few use this to their advantage it seems

 

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Evilpricetag said:

As inaros - sand blind.

If not, blocking with melee prevents so many knock down mechanics in the game, few use this to their advantage it seems

 

Blind did help, true.

But blocking...isn't something you can do with a shotgun equipped and ready. 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 3 heures, Kuestenjung a dit :

I played several Ghoul bounties with Nekros and Oberon and had no such problems, even with 10 or more ghouls around.

I agree with you that the ghoul theme infact is quite nice, but I think they need a buff, right now they are nothing more then just cannon fodder. They only serve as diversion regarding looks.

 

Il y a 3 heures, BlackCoMerc a dit :

Ghouls are nothing but a constant spam of grappling hooks, knockdown AoE and AoE toxin clouds. In a Ghoul Nest, you basically either run Trinity/Rhino, or suffer the constant tedium of yet more input robbing enemies. I tried Inaros. Once. And spent half of the first bounty mission bouncing around like a ping pong ball, unable to even control my character. Rolling didnt help. Constant movement didnt help. Because the Ghouls can cover A LOT of ground very quickly, have long grappling hook reach, are hard to see through the grass and have very wide AoE radius attacks, it was a miserable session of watching more than playing. 

Just did my first 3 runs, solo, lvl 30-50, with Oberon. Flawless. 

The Ghouls aren't that bad, imo. Yes, they charge a lot, but it suits them (Ghouls are mad, and mad people tend to go "Leeroy Jenkins"). The grapple thing sure is annoying sometimes, but it's nothing new. The gas clouds are only a problem if you are close to the enemy, just like Nox units (still not new). For the visibility of the enemies, still not new. That's a problem with the Plains, not the Ghouls. You think their knockdowns are annoying? Then what about heavy/Blitz units ground punch? Incendiary units' fire wall, Nox's charge, Bursas Shockwaves (especialy those), Ogmas and other bombard/mortar stuff? Knockdowns are everywhere, that's why people use Handspring or KD resistance mods. That's why we have KD blocking abilities (Atlas' passive, for example).

Just because you have issues with the Ghouls doesn't mean that their design is bad.

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Blind did help, true.

But blocking...isn't something you can do with a shotgun equipped and ready. 

As a Inaros lover, I consider him a 'blademaster' as he is capable of lifesteal on finnishers, so firearms are forgotten most of the time, other times, I keep a good pocket weilding melee. A weapon with good combos without being active -nunchucks with speed can block some knockdown just being side equipt.

Just my input, I get it though, at the end of the day we all have a prefered playstyle (some dont use face-roll builds).

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

In Warframe your decision in the mission will have less and less meaning as your progression goes deeper compared to the arsenal you chose before the mission started, it's like you can just build a powerful build and click auto play button, not much different from those mobile games with auto play button. 

Under the hood Warframe is a game that promotes trivialization, balance relationships between players and enemies are so unfair either mechanically or by bad scaling curves, this unfairness is used to drive players into building shells(cheesy builds) to protect them from bad game designs(those bad designs are intentional as a part of conditioning system) but some people misinterpreted it as "git gud", since it's comparable to a two-variable problem it cannot be solved by just one equation so talking about one side like nerfing a certain enemy is pretty pointless both sides must be fixed simultaneously. 

In short, Warframe is broken but trying pretty hard to prevent you from realizing it instead of actually fixing the issues because fixing might affect driving force behind progression. 

This is very true. This is a key defect in DE's design philosophy. It probably has to do with their original intend of this being more of a Collectable Card game than an Action RPG.  In those game this type of shallow time sink driven grind is more acceptable because the pure goal of the game is to keep collecting.  As this game evolved beyond that core concept and the devs actually had to manage and maintain things like damage and movement mechanics, boss and enemy AI, and level design the limitations of the original game is starting to show.

There isn't a real simple solution, the only real answer is to rework the core systems in the game. Now, DE has shown the ability to introduce new systems in the game, so this isn't as difficult a decision to make. But I have recently had the curious observation that there has been ZERO talk about a Warframe 2. This game has been in continuous development for about 5 years, in software terms that is an extremely long time to keep working on the same code. Even with their aggressive, attrition based design process there must still be alot of legacy code to content with. Perhaps it is time DE rolled up their sleeve and create the new warframe they seem to want to head towards.

Alot of these issue can be resolved by using AI. Looking at games like Left 4 Dead, No Man's Sky, and Shadow of War there are a plethora of design idea they could copy to add more complexity in the core combat to the game. Creating a more intuitive AI which reacts to the players actions (The Director AI from Left 4 Dead) and responds to keep the pressure or provide a challenge would transform the core gameplay experience.  Leaning on more procedural generated levels(No Man Sky's world building tech) would allow them to generate more constant in more varied ways without requiring massive manpower. And creating an organic and dynamic mini-boss and boss mechanic(the Nemesis System in Shadow of War), where the players actions determine the progression of bosses and how hard the final fight will be, would actually alleviate some of the shallowness of the grind and provide players near endless variety without once again having to curate all of it.

And finally one of the biggest changes would be to improve the item acquisition system to have overlapping methods of getting items. Stopping reliance exclusively on loot RNG would go a long way toward making the game more engaging an providing more avenues for people to play the game how they want and be able to constructively use their effort to make the kind of progress they want to make.

Edited December 22, 2017 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[BlackCoMerc]

3 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

There's a shortcut to rectify enemy design and faction balance. 

Let players play as enemy factions and fight other players. 

 

 

In Warframe your decision in the mission will have less and less meaning as your progression goes deeper compared to the arsenal you chose before the mission started, it's like you can just build a powerful build and click auto play button, not much different from those mobile games with auto play button. 

Under the hood Warframe is a game that promotes trivialization, balance relationships between players and enemies are so unfair either mechanically or by bad scaling curves, this unfairness is used to drive players into building shells(cheesy builds) to protect them from bad game designs(those bad designs are intentional as a part of conditioning system) but some people misinterpreted it as "git gud", since it's comparable to a two-variable problem it cannot be solved by just one equation so talking about one side like nerfing a certain enemy is pretty pointless both sides must be fixed simultaneously. 

In short, Warframe is broken but trying pretty hard to prevent you from realizing it instead of actually fixing the issues because fixing might affect driving force behind progression. 

 

 

This nails the problem precisely. Well stated.

[ACULonSeer]

I do support them having toxin clouds though, it stops the constant whip maiming strike abuse i keep seeing EVERYWHERE.

[nickelshark]

It just seems to me that ghouls aren't really anything new. They are just an amalgamation of enemies we already have. Imo the manic was the last truly interesting and fun to fight enemy despite it's invulnerability phases.

[BlackCoMerc]

52 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I do support them having toxin clouds though, it stops the constant whip maiming strike abuse i keep seeing EVERYWHERE.

Toxic clouds are fine. But not with the added cold proc. That Slow proc really needs to go.

[ACULonSeer]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Toxic clouds are fine. But not with the added cold proc. That Slow proc really needs to go.

I think its a bit annoying, yes, but it doesnt bother me THAT much. i actually find the Ghouls quite fun. theyre far more mobile and "intelligent" feeling than normal grineer who stand still and let me headshot them with Tenora over and over. At least they arent bullet-sponges!

[BlackCoMerc]

6 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I think its a bit annoying, yes, but it doesnt bother me THAT much. i actually find the Ghouls quite fun. theyre far more mobile and "intelligent" feeling than normal grineer who stand still and let me headshot them with Tenora over and over. At least they arent bullet-sponges!

Good points here. I love their (actually, complete) lack of armor. They use movement and evasion as opposed to sponginess. It's a great change, actually.

What I mean when I say they highlight the flaws in enemy design, though, is that a group of Ghouls is capable of robbing control from a player for seconds on end. Too many procs and knockdown attacks on very fast moving melee enemies are too much.

Other than this, they're awesome.