We May Not Need Stronger Ai Or Scaling, Just Different Enemies.

[Hayden11121]

Now, before I go on, I have to mention the recent enemies have been made the worst kinds of enemies.

Bad Mechanics On Enemies:

Heavy Gunner

If you get within eyesight of a grineer gunner, expect to get knocked down. That's it. No avoiding whatsoever. Even in the air, or way past her. Many times I've fought Heavy gunners just to get knocked down, sit there and take whatever punishment they can do, and get up.

 

Napalm

Same with Napalm, they work the same way. But their missiles are the slowest things in the planet, but make turns

flawlessly. Meaning it's only a matter of time before you're hit, and it's hard to see.

 

Corpus Tech And Fusion MOA

Then we have the Corpus Tech and Fusion MOA, who at the slightest show of trouble, fire off their spawn. There is no "Interrupt" mechanic. Basically if you see a Corpus Tech, or a Fusion MOA, unless you can one shot them, you're dealing with 2 mobs instead of one. That's all there is to it.

 

Rollers (Of course, right?)

Then we have the Rollers. These guys stun. And stun. And stun. And stun. Basically if you're stunned all you can do is sit there and hold the "Roll" button or try to execute a sprint dash really quickly to get away. But this is while being focused on in battle, so wherever you go might not exactly be safe from harm, as grineer often outflank us from the room we just exterminated millions of them in.

 

Scorpions (Make that hurt feel good baby!)

Then you have the Scorpions, who fire their grappling hook, and if you see it coming, there is nothing you can do. I've killed them while they fire it, the shot still goes off, and we still suffer knockdown. I've tried to dodge, but it does nothing. Basically as long as you are facing them, you're going to suffer their knockdown. Good luck avoiding, it's very difficult.

 

Raptor

And here you have the new bosses. What do you do to counter raptor? Oh right, just have something that breaks the game like Frost is known for, or use a Loki and trap him in the building. Otherwise you're taking pot shots at the guy for as long as you need for him to die, but watch out, 2-3 of his missiles end you, and they never stop going off! There is no strategy to this fight. It's like playing my first resident evil game. I turn around, notice 400 zombies, and shoot a couple headshots then run away. It's a prolonged and annoying fight that involves no real skill whatsoever, considering you cannot dodge these even with a Loki with max Rush.

 

Vor

And then there is Vor. Now originally I liked the Vor fight, it wasn't super stressful on a newbie, but if you tried to facetank him it didn't exactly work either. Just a casual fight, as it should be. He teleports to you, try to swing on you. You can outrun him of course, but there are grineer you have to kill alongside him. Now it is literally a clusterf^ck of Grineer in this big room, Teslas which you can do almost nothing about as new players don't have the stamina nor speed mods to run away, and cannot regenerate as the Teslas are draining at a rapid pace. What do you do strategically do to fight Vor? Run and take cheap shots when he isn't ready, like all the bosses. Except with the recent update his shields have become a bullet sponge so it takes quite a bit for newbies to even break them down, although that's not the point. THe point is you really only fight him and Raptor by running around and shooting a couple bullets when you can. But if you're ally goes down guess what? You can choose to watch him die, or risk your own hide to sit there and do it. Guess what most newbies do out of the pureness of their heart?

 

The Few Unique And Fun Enemies (Few)

Lech Kril

And here you have Lech Kril, one of the most enjoyable bosses in this game. His Gorgon can be avoided, and he can only focus on one player, unlike Raptor and Vor, and has actual enjoyable phases. Nobody directly runs away from him in most fights, and his fights are almost always enjoyable. You shoot his backpack a few times, and he switches completely. He switches his game strategy! Ice time! Meanwhile Vor is just recharging his shields os newbies can waist more ammo, and Raptor is just killing everything that isn't a snowglobe. Now, you can see Lech Kril wind up for a hammer strike if you pay attention, and it is obvious if you look for it, and easily dodgable, but painful. These type of fights should be here. Some involving movement, not hiding. Now you break him down and you have fire to deal with! Same story, just different element, but still fun! Without knowing anything you can tell his backpack is glowing because you should shoot it. And when he is frozen you should obviously try to wail on him!

 

Jackal

And then you have the Jackal, another enjoyable fight, at least when you don't dry farm him. You can break down his legs, and he gives enough space to let you revive, and breathe, but not enough to go through without at least one person downing. As long as there is no snowglobe on him, you should be fine. *Seriously frosts stop. Not everything is snowglobe.* The ospreys provide a challenge, but not a great one. They are more of fodder, which they should be. You hurt his legs, focus on his body, then repeat. Sure, it feels kind of like a "Legend Of Zelda" esque scenario where you have to wait for them to expose their soft point they can be hurt again, but it definitely beats the other fights I've seen in this game.

 

Shockwave MOA

And then there is one of the most sophisticated yet unintelligent mobs in this game, the Shockwave MOA. There are many things to do with him, and more enemies should be like him. For instance, while raising his leg, he is more vulnerable to his weak point *the center of their legs is the weakpoint, it makes it easily accessible*, but if you do not react he can knock you down. HOWEVER, unlike every other mob, he is not FORCING you down, you can simply jump in the midst of combat. That may not be the best thing for you, but it's not a forced stun like a Heavy Gunner pound. I enjoy unmodding my gear and playing against shockwave MOA's in lower levels, and it's been the most fun I had since I reset.

 

 

 

 

Now, if there were more mobs LIKE the shockwave MOA and more boss fights like Lech Kril, amazingly intelligent AI wouldn't be needed. I mean yes, the grineer need to stop using my character as a cover from myself, but this could lay off some of the much needed work done.

 

TL;DR: Shockwave MOA shows a great example of what mobs should be. They can wind up their attack, exposing their weak point, but then release a blast that can change the tide of battle. However the blast should be avoidable, unlike the Heavy Gunner's knockdown. Boss fights like Lech Kril should also be implemented, involving actual movement instead of running for your life like a Raptor fight or a newbie against Vor's teslas.

 

 

 

[CY13ERPUNK]

hrmm nice OP

but -1 to most of yer ideas

but still IMHO Warframe needs more aggressive AI (ie Payday 2)

Edited August 4, 2013 by CY13ERPUNK

[Sophista]

Sir, with all do respect.
Youre Wrong.

 

 

There is a lot of Bugs/problems with enemies- 100% agree with that.

 

on rest of matters you pointed... well, not true.

 

Have problem with heavy gunner knocking you over? DONT come closer or get knockdown resist mods.

 

Having problem with grineer missles? instead of turning around and trying to loose the tail, how about HIDE behind OBSTACLE. and be out of fire radius? (or you can always use fire resist mods, but these are lame imo)

 

rollers? well, its a fast enemy, and dodgy one.

Aim fast, shoot fast, youre good.

 

 

About Vor being hard for newbies? Agree, but that make em WORK TOGETHER to overcome strong enemy.

 

 

I respect Your opinion, and time you took to write all that.

Still- i totaly dont agree

[Arlayn]

Did you ever read my topic on infested https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/85850-the-evolutiontion-of-infested-and-future-ideas/?hl=%2Bfuture+%2Bof+%2Binfested

 

Telling you... the Stingers, and Chroma will change infested completely... with leaping around the walls, turning invisible, throwing spines at you... They could stalk us by crawling on the ceiling, leaping around throwing spines...

 

and the chroma could throw spines at you turn invisible, leap across the room reappear throw more spines and repeat... See that would be a pretty cool AI even if it repeats, it still is better then just every infested in the game using the same strategy of just running at you...

Edited August 3, 2013 by Arlayn

[Hayden11121]

Sir, with all do respect.

Youre Wrong.

 

 

There is a lot of Bugs/problems with enemies- 100% agree with that.

 

on rest of matters you pointed... well, not true.

 

Have problem with heavy gunner knocking you over? DONT come closer or get knockdown resist mods.

 

Having problem with grineer missles? instead of turning around and trying to loose the tail, how about HIDE behind OBSTACLE. and be out of fire radius? (or you can always use fire resist mods, but these are lame imo)

 

rollers? well, its a fast enemy, and dodgy one.

Aim fast, shoot fast, youre good.

 

 

About Vor being hard for newbies? Agree, but that make em WORK TOGETHER to overcome strong enemy.

 

 

I respect Your opinion, and time you took to write all that.

Still- i totaly dont agree

I have to disagree with you though.

 

I have no problem with a Heavy Gunner knocking you down. But it's unavoidable. Use a Loki with max Rush and have a Volt use Speed on him. He still can't get out of the way while sliding before getting knocked down. And if they are on the other side of the door like the sneaky rascals tend to be, then boom. Nothing to do.

 

Hiding can be very difficult with the napalm rockets, considering he changes position and fires multiple ones. Not only that, enemies come in from the room you just massacred, meaning you will have to deal with them, then the rockets blindside you.

 

Rollers are great design, but flawed. I maintain dual vipers and Snipetron Vandal, before I had reset. I had no real function of killing them, and considering I mained Loki, no ability I had could od anything either. A jump attack was almost always bad because they would hit me and turn me into a scratching post.

 

Again, before Vor was too easy, now he is too hard. There is no strategy to him. No matter how much teamwork you have, those Teslas are still going to be there, in your face, depleting your shields. Nothing to do but run away. Same as Raptor.

 

I disagree, you disagree, we all disagree. Although it is good to see someone else's point.

[Sophista]

I have to disagree with you though.

 

I have no problem with a Heavy Gunner knocking you down. But it's unavoidable. Use a Loki with max Rush and have a Volt use Speed on him. He still can't get out of the way while sliding before getting knocked down. And if they are on the other side of the door like the sneaky rascals tend to be, then boom. Nothing to do.

 

Hiding can be very difficult with the napalm rockets, considering he changes position and fires multiple ones. Not only that, enemies come in from the room you just massacred, meaning you will have to deal with them, then the rockets blindside you.

 

Rollers are great design, but flawed. I maintain dual vipers and Snipetron Vandal, before I had reset. I had no real function of killing them, and considering I mained Loki, no ability I had could od anything either. A jump attack was almost always bad because they would hit me and turn me into a scratching post.

 

Again, before Vor was too easy, now he is too hard. There is no strategy to him. No matter how much teamwork you have, those Teslas are still going to be there, in your face, depleting your shields. Nothing to do but run away. Same as Raptor.

 

I disagree, you disagree, we all disagree. Although it is good to see someone else's point.

In my MMO adventure i learned something.

Work with surroundings, use environment to gain advantage.

KITE if you will get hit hard.

 

You say sneaky bastards wait for you behind doors and when  you come near, they knock you out and have fun with you? well thats smart of them, how about being trapped in a ambush enemy just set? thats part of a game.

 

You say no matter how many cooperation there is, vor is too hard? well, have you ever ever tried to just surround him and attack from all sides, when he focus on someone- this person just stops attacking and duck into cover? repeat 4 times and you get him down.

About Tesla- let the newbies learn to avoid shiny energy floating around- it will help em.

 

About Your Load-out for rollers- i agree it is difficult to kill em with snipertron (been there bro)... but that's why you have team in there, WORK TOGETHER/ let supra/gorgon/braton holder wipe em all, and make that his assingment- kill rollers 1st

 

again about working together- if you have someone with knockdown reduction loadout/or rhino... make his assessment dealing with them by knock them down, so you all can jump on their sorry asses

 

 

EDIT:

 

Fact that something is hard to avoid, does not mean its unavoidable.This is challenge game gives.

Edited August 3, 2013 by PiotrGracz

[Arlayn]

I have to disagree with you though.

 

I have no problem with a Heavy Gunner knocking you down. But it's unavoidable. Use a Loki with max Rush and have a Volt use Speed on him. He still can't get out of the way while sliding before getting knocked down. And if they are on the other side of the door like the sneaky rascals tend to be, then boom. Nothing to do.

 

Hiding can be very difficult with the napalm rockets, considering he changes position and fires multiple ones. Not only that, enemies come in from the room you just massacred, meaning you will have to deal with them, then the rockets blindside you.

 

Rollers are great design, but flawed. I maintain dual vipers and Snipetron Vandal, before I had reset. I had no real function of killing them, and considering I mained Loki, no ability I had could od anything either. A jump attack was almost always bad because they would hit me and turn me into a scratching post.

 

Again, before Vor was too easy, now he is too hard. There is no strategy to him. No matter how much teamwork you have, those Teslas are still going to be there, in your face, depleting your shields. Nothing to do but run away. Same as Raptor.

 

I disagree, you disagree, we all disagree. Although it is good to see someone else's point.

Actually you can avoid the heavy ground slam... I do it all the time with max rush, or speed... It can be done, I do it.. and if I do it... and know I can do it then it must be doable... At least for me it is. You have to time it right the heavies are a lot slower then you think.

[Sixty5]

I may be missing the point here, but basically you are saying that you want the games harder enemies tweaked and or removed?

 

 

I like the way enemies are. Heavies especially. Slide-melee past them to proc the shockwave, giving you 3 seconds to shoot at them while they are helpless. The knowledge of tactics like that is what differentiates a decent player from a good one.

 

Other points

- Fusion Moas have the largest, and easiest to hit weakspot on the game. Shoot that big round thing on their back and they will never survive long enough to launch the drone

-Techs are most easily defeated by brute force, as long as you have AP and Cryo just unload at their head, the osprey shield takes forever to recharge unless a new one is released

- Scorpions, granted their pull attack is annoying, but I've only ever found it hits me if I'm not moving, or slowly strafing parallel to their axis of fire.

- Rollers have basically no health and little to nothing in the way of damage mitigation. Light melee attacks with a heavy weapon will stop you from being staggered by them 80% of the time and will kill the little bastards in no time.

 

and to finish, I will add that the heavy ground slam is very avoidable, just be a ninja and get out of its range before the animation is done. Sure they might surprise you with non-LOS hits, but in most cases those are of little consequence.

 

Also, Constitution and Fortitude are your friends.. 

Edited August 3, 2013 by Sixty5

[Sophista]

Hayden, we have to play together:) i may be able to show you some tricks i use, if you want.

[Kahruvel]

All knockdown issues can be solved by allowing a roll to absorb one strike completely, with a cooldown to prevent spammage.

[Dueler]

I agree with you. It seems bullet sponges are the main difficulty factor in the game. Also you forgot Railgun MOAs as a "fun" enemy. They keep a safe distance and snipe you down, but the blue line is visible so you can still dodge it. For the Heavy Grineer issue though, using an ability right before you get knocked down prevents it.