Does anyone here actually like the Operator?

[Futurehero]

So as of today I finished everything I proposed for myself to make my operator decent. 

-Both Vazarin tanking nodes unbound.

-6/10 Magus Vigor, which with the above takes my hp to 1000.

-Naramon movement speed.

-T2 amp with t1 scaffold.

-Slowing void blast from Zenurik

EDIT:

My two follow-up posts about this:

1)   My suggestions for the story/lore

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Spoiler

So after bashing the current mechanics , I thought I'd try my hand at offering some suggestions for what I think operators should be like:

1)The lore aspect and gameplay aspect of Tenno should match no matter what . None of this "void demons with 250 hp that have to strip shields off kaiju with pew pew lasers"  nonsense.

So here are some variants:

-1) Operators are frail and weak, their powers revolve around their  warframes. Waking up from the second dream is treated as the enemy discovering said weakness. Their powers revolve around creative problem solving by way of puzzles, and exist to provide lore insight on the world as a "different voice". They don't fight, that's what warframes are for.

-2) Operators exist as a continuation of the power fantasy of warframes. They have extreme amounts of effect on gameplay, and are limited to end game content. From here , you can either do:

•  Tenno as disciplined child prodigies, stoic shaolin monk types.   No cracking jokes about how ugly grineer are, no vulnerable emo crap.  Lotus is not "space mom", she is the head of your Ninja clan, who sends you out on missions to maintain the balance of power. They are good at combat and exist as an alternative to warframe abilities. 
• Tenno are extremely powerful , but have little control over said power. Warframes exist as containment units. Gameplay would revolve around extremely powerful abilities offset by a time limit in which to use them , until you "lose control" and are forced back into the warframe. Think of someone like Tetsuo from Akira unleashing hell until his powers overtake him and turn him into a monster. For reference, this is the closest one to the existing Warframe lore. (So focus 1.0 , but vastly improved and tied into the narrative)

-3)Operators exist to complement Warframes.  They are needed for things Warframes do not excel at. What do Warframes not do well?   Talking, for one. Any kind of meaningful interaction to be honest. So they would exist as the game's "dialogue system" . An actual, branched dialogue system. Negotiating with people for different rewards. Getting meaningful info  , that kind of stuff. A "human" face and some empathy will solve problems that a Rhino will not , and will allow tenno to seek out their own goals without needing the Lotus to act as interpreter.

-4)The tenno's amazing power doesn't revolve around "void magic". It revolves around the one thing everyone in the  universe of Warframe is interested in..... Orokin Tech.Think about it: Captain Vor is interested in it, Alad V, Nef Anyo, even the infested are in on it.  Tenno can interact with and control Orokin tech in ways nobody can. That's their power. You can make all sorts of gameplay from that premise alone. Using your operator to bust into secret orokin vaults that block your warframes.  Finding artifacts in missions where others don't know where to look . Commanding ancient Orokin war machines.  In fact , THIS was the premise I originally thought they were going with after the War Within, before this Eidolon Dune crap.  As a bonus , this gives them some interesting parallels with their enemies, the Sentients.

 

Someone with more imagination than me could probably come up with way better alternatives, but yeah. This is just to show that there are other ways to do this stuff.

 

2)A more detailed list of criticism:

 

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Spoiler

Lastly, I want to make a consolidated list of actual criticism, with less salt and less ranting and raving. 

Something that can actually be read coherently  and simply understood. So:

Opeartor gameplay sucks because:

-Operators are designed to be weak and vulnerable, so having them "tag team" with Warframes brings out their weakness even more.

-Their role has to be "forced" into the gameplay/combat, rather than as a natural extension. Example: "This guy takes no damage until you void dash through him". "This guy takes reduced damage till you strip it off him with your laser gun"  .  The Zenurik Energy regen  and the void dash that prompts enemies for finishers is the closest it gets to being good.

-"Amps" make no sense, and are essentially "Archwing Weapons" 2.0 . They're a weak alternative to an actual weapon that does NOTHING  a regular weapon can't (minus the above mentioned forced gameplay).   If a T1 amp is literally just an Arca Scisco with an Opticor alt fire, why not give me that?  Why can't I wield my Lex , which I already spent time improving? Is this to "roll back the power creep"  ?. Then why lock it behind so much grind? If all I need this laser gun for is to strip shields and un-resist Sentients, why have all these fire modes etc?

-Your void powers are essentially inferior versions of Warframe powers. Your blast is a weaker Banshee 1. Your dash is a weaker Rhino 1. Your void mode is the only remotely unique thing, and it's not used for stealth. It's used for toggling on/off while you pop enemies with your amp gun.    Even worse, since these powers are tied to button inputs instead of actual ability inputs, this hamstrings DE in the future if they ever decide to add more gameplay to the operator. Example: Melee is void blast, so actual hypothetical operator melee will need a more complex input.   

-Your operator's power derives from persistence and perseverance  rather than actual strength. You can kill any enemy since you yourself can't die. You can shoot an enemy forever since you never run out of ammo, you can be invisible almost forever since you have infinite recharging energy. These in themselves do very little, however.  In layman's terms, you are that weak Skeleton in the Graveyard in Dark souls, that deals little damage and is of little threat, but will re-spawn forever until his source is killed.

Or , in Warframe terms: You are Wukong with a Rage mod, armed with a level 1 Cycron, tried to run through Sortie 3 constantly spamming Defy. 

And without a significant investment in Focus, that's where you'll remain. That little skeleton in Dark souls.

Focus sucks because:

-It requires a massive investment of time for bonsues that are really not worth it. That Madurai Fireball in my OP is the posterboy example, but others sure exist.

-Even worse, it requires a lot of non operator gameplay to unlock operator bonuses.  Killing enemies with Spider Equinox makes it so your Tenno will eventually have more HP. Think about the logistics of that. What am I "focusing" on?

-Focus schools are poorly balanced so most people will rarely switch them out. Even moreso with the rigorous grind attached to it. Oh I can deal some percent extra physical damage? Oooorrr... I could have constantly recharging energy for the powers that actually kill .  Hmm.....

-Focus does not add anything actually new to gameplay. It's mostly effects/abilities that we ALREADY have. Disarm this. Reduce armor that. Damage for X electric.... How about, "you can now walk through walls".  "You can now dual wield primaries for a bit"  "You can transfer into Sentients and shoot their weapons" 

Opeartors turning out how they did sucks because:

-Their customization options are weak/underdeveloped compared to Warframes. When you give people a human character , they're gonna want to shape it to either look like them, or create an actual character to roleplay as.

-As "humans"  DE has their work cut out for them to animate, voice them as believable characters. (See ME: Andromeda for when this goes wrong)

-Their personalities are underdeveloped for any kind of roleplay. They're not silent so you can fill in the blanks, and what they DO say often doesn't match what you'd want them to say. IF this nerdy "roleplay" S#&$ seems pointless, go to above point. Why give me a human with a voice if a faceless death-robot will slice enemies with no concerns to story?

-To continue the nerdy lore S#&$: How does Tenno society/culture function. They apparently have this huge, honor-focused culture, but I'm not buying it . Can you imagine these kids building something like the Duel Room in the Dojo to have honorable fights and hone their skills?  

 

 

And with ALL of that, Operators aren't fun. I'm sorry they are just not. 

The story behind them is bad as doing a "fish out of water" plot 2+ years after the story has been under way just makes no sense.

Their gameplay is worse in EVERY WAY as compared to using a warframe.

Their powers are generic and not fun to use.

90% of the stuff focus allows you to do is also generic and not fun  to use. "Wow I can throw a firebal out of my hands. ....whilst I also have an  energy weapon strapped to it that deals x times the damage and has infinite ammo and procs impact on demand. "  <-- Like , who thought that would be a good idea lol ? :) :)

Amps are also underwhelming. Strapping a Wierding Device to your arm should be cool, but almost all of them have bad stats so once again, meh. Also, no Amp mods.

In fact, why can't my tenno just use a secondary? The Sortie defense targets have no problems wielding  an Euphona Prime, so why can't I ?

 

 

Tenno being just humans is terrible as well, as opposed to some sort of energy being, "Starcraft Archon" style god, because:

-The character customization sucks. Very limited ways to make my guy/girl look .

-No body customization, so after having 1k+ hp  I can't make my chick look buff in any way shape or form.

-Operator accessories have taken a backseat to warframe accesories, so if you don't like "cat ears", you're poop out of luck boyo....

 

I didn't want to post about this until I dipped my feet in focus to get a good enough idea. But now that I did, yeah ,no.  Operators suck.

They suck in every way they're supposed to contribute to the game, from the story to the gameplay. 

EDIT: It's like in Overwatch, if you would CHOOSE to play as Dva on foot, as opposed to the mech. Why would anyone want that?

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Futurehero

[Kyoresh]

7 minutes ago, Futurehero said:

It's like in Overwatch, if you would CHOOSE to play as Dva on foot, as opposed to the mech. Why would anyone want that?

 Because its better for long range poke. 

But to your topic: I would like to have even MORE Operator play because I really enjoy their story.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

I've always enjoyed the operators story-wise. I mean focus is terrible, sure. Honestly I think Focus 2.0 is even worse than the original, but we don't have to use it. The only things operators are good at, cloaking, sentient defense stripping, etc, aren't effected by focus at all.

Their place in the story however, is fine.

[LOKIME]

Yeah they do suck, I wouldn't mind a buff to everything considering how godamm squishy they're. The only appliable uses I've personally founds (in madurai) is for eidolon hunting and killing stalker real fast, spy missions, and being invulnerable for a decent period of time

Edited January 9, 2018 by Lokime

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

Gameplay-wise, they have some flaws.

But the story is just awesome. Big plot twist honestly. Not boring at all that the Tenno are humans, that was also anticipated.

I mean, name one alien race that exists in Warframe.

No, Sentients don't count if you look at their origin.

[Shards-of-a-Soul]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

Gameplay-wise, they have some flaws.

But the story is just awesome. Big plot twist honestly. Not boring at all that the Tenno are humans, that was also anticipated.

I mean, name one alien race that exists in Warframe.

No, Sentients don't count if you look at their origin.

Yay, I'm not the only one. :)

[silvardragon]

i do hope with the next quest that comes after the prolouge the operator will get more eguipment to kill enemies and sustain attacks better and deal more damage and quickly reload 

[GinKenshin]

All of this is subjective. Personally I really like my Tenno, especially since I made her look like a ‘sexy librarian’. Their movement feels a lot better than the old one, sliding feels smooth. And they’re not meant for long combat, that’s why, imo, their movement and survivability isn’t that good compared to warframes, they just have to do their thing and go back to piloting badass suits, that’s the idea behind them imo

 

 

  As for their powers, it’s what you expect from this kinda thing, and they’re really useful. Going invisible, ragdolling tough enemies, dashing to travel long distances 

 

  As for focus nodes, non-waybound at least-personally I find them too complicating, so I’m not going for them 

  As for the story, it’s a classic ‘young kid controlling a bigger power to become strong’, either the void or warframes’ so what’s not to like? Plus I’m sure ‘the man in the wall’ will bring some spicy lore to make them look even better 

[LuckyCharm]

I really like my operators dash and void modes but the rest leaves a lot to be desired. Especially the amps, you cannot really kill much later on without taking many many shots to kill stuff

[Fallen_Echo]

Almost all of these kind of posts attract white knights who are adamantly defend even the terrible parts of the operator gameplay and a few of the people who actually like operator.

I myself currently using even less nodes on zenurik then before and i have no intention or motivations to do anything more.

Amps? Weak as hell, the void proc is an annoyance and a grineer wearing an oven door can defend itself against it.

If we could atleast put on secondary/primary mods on them they would be actually useable.

Operators? You have to grind like a madman to get yourself something what is essentially a faster moving inaros with much less health potential. 

They need to get either a modable suit or an actual reasonable upgrade to their stats. No more grind for months so you can get slightly better stats.

The story? Im actually fine with it the problem is the latest installement of the combat operators what doesnt make sense. We got advertised actual combat and focus 1.0 showed us the vast potential of the void and what we got?

An arm cannon exactly as good as the spectra without mods and some copy-paste slightly modified warframe powers while we lost the void deathbeam, petrifying gaze and other actual interesting powers.

[Koldraxon-732]

I would certainly like the option to wield my 1-handed sidearms (or, if they're dual, -50% magazine cap) with the Amp, and the Amp damage should scale from all the gun mods you have on the frame, as for the Focus abilities, I'd like for the Second Dream Focus abilities to be reintegrated as a Tenno ult.

The rest of this spoiler is a list of things I'd like to happen to the Tenno to improve them. They are meant to be destructive, difficult to restrain, and difficult to kill due to their Void-related defenses.

Spoiler

 

Also the fact that Focus progression is limited to the Plains of Eidolon is another issue worth raising.

Not to mention that Tenno, with all their Void power, can't even glide around like a Jedi from Star Wars or, if I must refer to, a Warlock from Destiny?

Also, Tenno need their abilities to scale with enemies, and their Amp should serve as a firing type modifier only (as in, the amp only changes how the damage is dealt rather than modifying it) as their Void Beam should have a general, cheap upgrade to make it like the one we were able to use in the last moments of Second Dream.

Furthermore, the Tenno should have a Void shield around them that bases itself on their hp, and uses their hp as an armour variable.

In fact, all references to them in the Codex depict them as godly, demonic, and unrestrained - yet mere children, yet all we've got is a child-survivor of a ship plunged into the Void warped into a pilot of armour they thought was their body (or bodies) with powers that are rather underwhelming.

What's worse is that we can't use our old Focus Powers or trees. DE should reintroduce (some parts of the) Focus 1.0 trees as alternative paths with their Focus ability being a Waybound that can be unbound (but only one Focus Ult can be active at any time).

 

 

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

7 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

And they’re not meant for long combat, that’s why, imo, their movement and survivability isn’t that good compared to warframes, they just have to do their thing and go back to piloting badass suits, that’s the idea behind them imo

Exactly.

[Fishyflakes]

Love it with 3-3-3 Amp, all waybounds unlocked, and Full Naramon Tree.

So freaking amazing for mobility and Kuva Farming.

2x Magis Nourish almost totally replaces Arcane Grace too.

Currently working on Unairu tree for the wisp and group invisibility party trick!

[Snib]

I could do without operators, but since we got them I use them a lot for all sorts of utility functions mainly, sometimes crowd control, but since amps are still bugged on clients only rarely to fight enemies other than sentinents. It's a super fast pocket limbo that can ragdoll even nullifiers off the map, what's not to love?

So yes, I think operators are extremely useful but the main attraction of the game remains about the space ninjas.

[Twilight053]

Zenurik Operator with Electrifying Dash is comparable to Ember WoF, so....

Yes, I enjoy Operator. Zenurik school, at least.

[(XBOX)Mechanomaly]

By the way, this isn't a feedback post.

[silvardragon]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Juniormech777 said:

By the way, this isn't a feedback post.

it's obviouse as we clicked on general feedback so i don't need to say the obviouse here which you already know

[nickelshark]

I find then to be pretty meh. When they were revealed I was initially surprised and all, but it wore off quick. I was hoping for something a little more mystical. As far as game play they are still meh. Don't see much use for them outside of their niche uses and I would actually be pretty okay with them staying that way.

[MystMan]

The Amps I find underwhelming, I barely use them. Only on pesky Vomvalysts who annoy me during bounties if I happen to be in plains. Their arcanes are "meh" as well.

 

But the operator? Oh yeah, I love using him!  I bound my operator key to my mousebutton4 so I can quickly switch between frame/operator without breaking the flow of my movement. 

The way-bounds skills  Naramon Mind Sprint +  Zenurik's Void Flow enable you to do 5 aerial void dashes in a row, covering a great distance in 2 seconds. This is excellent on open maps and obviously awesome on the plains.
Unlocking and enabling all 10 way-bound skills really stand out, I recommend prioritizing that. Your operator will have more health + regeneration, more energy and ammo, bigger void blast range, is tankier and runs faster.
 

I have maxed all schools and my chosen main is Zenurik. I void-dash like a pinball in an enclosed location and all enemies that did not get ragdolled away will be getting zapped by electricity, with a good chance to proc thanks to Lightning Dash. It's like deploying a lot of Vauban's tesla coils everywhere,without having to use Vauban. Temporal Blast slows enemies down for 15 seconds, and with slow down, I mean they are almost frozen and not a threat at all. Anybody else nearby gets lightning proc as well.

.I also switch to Naramon Affinity Spike a lot since that 45% extra affinity gain from melee attacks is a serious time-saver leveling stuff and farming focus.

The thing is with operators, they all start out WEAK.  Once you unlock everything in the school you want to main and the way-bounds, you will have a powerful and/or useful secondary character at your disposal.  But it takes time, lots of it, to unlock all that potential by farming focus.

[Vlada91]

I love good character creation that i can create 2 look similar 2 me,and in warframe my favorite game i whose happy that we get that in the game,but its kid and no much fun 2 playe with him....so for now i love operator mod just 50/50

[Mister-God]

I personally, am not interested in playing as the operator, but I think there's a notable vocal group that does enjoy playing as the operator.

I think they're mostly pointless. The niches use cases of the operator feels very forced upon us, which doesn't seem like good game design. And the extra uses of the operator are a little pointless (aside from maybe energizing dash or whatever it's called).

From what I've read, the people who love operators use them to 'get away from dangerous enemies' using the invincibility frames of the operator, or using the operator's arcane to restore health to frames. But the thing is that there are no dangerous enemies in warframe in general appropriately rewarding gameplay. The most 'dangerous' enemies come from sortie 3, and even those enemies are jokes.

Health restoration is kinda pointless too. For a very long time, I haven't thought to myself "I need to get some health quickly".  Do you know why?... Because I have decent frames, and most gameplay is either trivial - or if you go for a couple of hours in survival (which there are almost no reasons to do so) you'd get one shot and have no time to react if you goof up anyways.

The impression the people who love operator gameplay give off is that they are just new players who don't have decent frames, and they just wanted to come to the forums to rave about how much utility the operators give.

And I don't blame them.. If I didn't have a decent frame, I would probably think that the operators have lots and lots of utility too, but the operators currently feel very noob-centric.

[Airwolfen]

I really like operators as an idea within the game and them being intended as a tag team with your frame.

Tag team. this is where the issue lies most times I see anti operator posts. Because they do not understand it or just outright reject it. Operator mode is not there to take over what your frame does. you literally play your own support and utility.

Movement so good that only a portal nova outclasses it in open areas but with the positive of changing direction.
With the right amp you can create bullet attractors on demand, perfect for automatic weapons.
In emergency situations you can bail safely regardless of what frame you use.

They have their uses, they have their story. Just... don't think they are a replacement for your frame. It's called a. tag. team.

[Klavinmour]

Why would you want Mods for Tenno?

When was the last time you actively went for mods for your Archwing?

Tenno are better off leveling through Focus and the current weapon system they have, there is no need to add mods on top of this.

[Syasob]

The story behind operators is very nice, "they can be who they want to be, not who they are", you know. Like children playing knights and their dreams came true.

About gameplay: there're only 2 things where one have to use operator: break through eidolon's shield and finish vomvalists. And you don't have to do both of them to have fun.

Edit: forgot "rap-tap-tap" and MR challenge, sorry.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Syasob

[Klavinmour]

4 minutes ago, Mister-God said:

I personally, am not interested in playing as the operator, but I think there's a notable vocal group that does enjoy playing as the operator.

I think they're mostly pointless. The niches use cases of the operator feels very forced upon us, which doesn't seem like good game design. And the extra uses of the operator are a little pointless (aside from maybe energizing dash or whatever it's called).

From what I've read, the people who love operators use them to 'get away from dangerous enemies' using the invincibility frames of the operator, or using the operator's arcane to restore health to frames. But the thing is that there are no dangerous enemies in warframe in general appropriately rewarding gameplay. The most 'dangerous' enemies come from sortie 3, and even those enemies are jokes.

Health restoration is kinda pointless too. For a very long time, I haven't thought to myself "I need to get some health quickly".  Do you know why?... Because I have decent frames, and most gameplay is either trivial - or if you go for a couple of hours in survival (which there are almost no reasons to do so) you'd get one shot and have no time to react if you goof up anyways.

The impression the people who love operator gameplay give off is that they are just new players who don't have decent frames, and they just wanted to come to the forums to rave about how much utility the operators give.

And I don't blame them.. If I didn't have a decent frame, I would probably think that the operators have lots and lots of utility too, but the operators currently feel very noob-centric.

Everyone I've talked to who love the Tenno/Opperators are vets like me who've been playing since Invite Only Beta.

It's a matter of a breath of fresh air, on top of giving greater build diversity.

Your group of four players have had enough of taking turns to play Trinity?
Fine one of you or all of you can use Zenurik/Vazarin.

You want to purely focus on melee play, but it's difficult in Defense missions because the time between waves kills your Combo Counter?
Naramon solves that, allowing you to keep your Combo Counter by it now decaying slowly rather then disappearing all at once.
This is good in other mission types too, when enemy scarcity comes into play.

There is plenty of reason to go for multiple hours on survival missions, each 5 minutes you gain a stacking buff for Resources, Credits and EXP.
The longer you go the better.
Not to mention things don't really start getting fun until about an hour into Axi Survival for a lot of people.