Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[MrInubis]

11 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

They already did that to Excalibur once. His nuke was nerfed to require line of sight and a new 4th ability, the Spam Blade aka Exalted Blade was added.

The result? Excal is now either being used as a EB spammer or not at all. 

But I can and I am. Any AoE-capable frame with a proper build can clear rooms faster than a Braton MK-1 wielding newbie can get to enemies. And it's a good thing, too, because Warframe, for all intents and purposes is not a traditional shooter - it's a 3rd person Diablo in space where most missions are about killing as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible for as much loot as possible. If you are hellbent on playing a game where your character feels like a cripple armed with a peashooter and has to personally unload an entire clip to kill one trash mob, maybe you should consider Destiny instead? 

I said multiple times that im ok with room clears but map wipes without any effort shouldnt be a thing so tone down your attitude of selfish a.hole ok? You are discribing what this game is about and yet you deny others that thing by wiping everything yourself. 

[Reifnir]

Just now, kuciol said:

You are discribing what this game is about and yet you deny others that thing by wiping everything yourself. 

This is a logic loop you can't get out of, you know.

Some game modes ARE about clearing rooms (and maps, if you will). In equal part, it's about choosing the best tool to do so. 

If one player has picked an appropriate tool, an AoE capable frame in this case, and others have not, the problem doesn't lie with people who chose the RIGHT tools. It's the opposite.  Because right now, you're blaming people with can openers for outperforming the ones who insist on using nail clippers for the same task instead. 

Using the same flawed logic, you can try and blame people who bring Mesa or Mag to let's say, a Raptor fight, as opposed to bringing Ember who is nigh useless there. 

You want to score kills and contribute in a game mode which requires you to kill hordes of weak enemies? Bring an AoE frame. You want to contribute in a fight which entails taking down single powerful targets? Bring a frame capable of doing so. It's simple as that. 

[Voltage]

59 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Simple tweak to make all those aoe abilities "line of sight".

Ask Ash Bladestorm, Excalibur Radial Javelin, Mirage Prism, and Mag Pull how the Line of Sight tweak is working out. Excalibur is the only example I mentioned that is still usable, but Mag Pull, Ash Bladestorm and Mirage Prism are so bad, you shouldn't even consider using it. LoS changes are some of the biggest nerfs and it kills frames and builds.

[shoopypit]

8 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

There was never skill in Warframe when it comes to this topic (killing stuff). Other warframes in the past have suffered because "they were annoying" to that one group who doesn't like it, and it ends up being trash afterwards (hi there Ash). Where was it confirmed they will nerf maiming strike? Last time I checked, it is a Riven mods stat and players have invested IMMENSE amounts of platinum into that stat alone, never mind the base mod. Please elaborate how the Ash rework made Bladestorm fun to use, because no one even wastes their time with bleed procs that can't even proc Arcane Trickery.

Whether or not something fun is your opinion. I find it fun, and many other players do too, that is why they use her.

"noob scrub". Last time I checked, dishing out insults won't help you get more kills in matchmaking.  

I dont care about my kills stat. Stats are irrelevant to me. I care about fun. Someone modding for wof ember saps the fun for anyone else. That's it. Honestly I would love to see her in a sortie. But I never do. I only ever see her in missions low enough to kill quickly with her noob toggle. I recognize people enjoy toggling it on and having it do all the work. But for everyone else it is unsatisfying. Just like ash was unsatisfying to play beside.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, shoopypit said:

I dont care about my kills stat. Stats are irrelevant to me. I care about fun. Someone modding for wof ember saps the fun for anyone else. That's it. Honestly I would love to see her in a sortie. But I never do. I only ever see her in missions low enough to kill quickly with her noob toggle. I recognize people enjoy toggling it on and having it do all the work. But for everyone else it is unsatisfying. Just like ash was unsatisfying to play beside.

You do know that everyone sees fun differently. If I breeze Ember through a sortie (which I am capable of), there are many players that are glad the mission went by faster. Not everyone has fun playing with Ember, and not everyone has fun slowly doing missions. Face it, this entire thread outlines a matchmaking issue. Nerfing an ability everytime it becomes meta shows laziness and failure to identify and remedy root issues. The root issue is matchmaking, not Ember. If the matchmaking worked properly, MR 25s would not encounter MR4s doing starchart, and players who don't like certain playstyles could create groups accordingly.

Ember toggle is only a noob toggle to you because I am guessing you don't understand how it works. It is completely balanced with enemy caps, and no scaling whatsoever.

[shoopypit]

5 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

Lol and no. People like you are seriously the worse. "Hurr hurr have fun muh way, you way - no fun! No skills!" Nobody is holding a gun to your head to use ember you know, you can show us your uber gaming skills by using mag or oberon, so only that you can prove yourself being superior to us poor plebs. I have 3,2k hrs to this game, close to MR 25 atm, I play all frames, all have functional builds, I have all weapons and gear, mostly heavily formaed and with dozen of arcane sets installed and I assure you, whatever damage frame I choose to bring you won't feel the difference because enemies will equally fast die around you making your life easy and boring. So let us "noob scrubs" enjoy our ember, while you "superior skillers" can teach us how to play this game "right way" - your way - using more demanding frames, you know, ones more suited for better players. 

Wow hit a nerve huh. No need to get defensive. Congrats for having all frames. I have a hard time keeping up. Just got harrow, super cool kit. The thing is, you need kills with him to support your comrades. Can't do it when an ember equips range and steals the bodies. That's my only point. They want the game to be Co op, but certain abilities just aren't all that great for team play. Honestly, never ran into embers all that often until the plains. Now it's all the time. Sapping any fun I might have trying to participate in the objective e

[shoopypit]

10 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

You do know that everyone sees fun differently. If I breeze Ember through a sortie (which I am capable of), there are many players that are glad the mission went by faster. Not everyone has fun playing with Ember, and not everyone has fun slowly doing missions. Face it, this entire thread outlines a matchmaking issue. Nerfing an ability everytime it becomes meta shows laziness and failure to identify and remedy root issues. The root issue is matchmaking, not Ember. If the matchmaking worked properly, MR 25s would not encounter MR4s doing starchart, and players who don't like certain playstyles could create groups accordingly.

Ember toggle is only a noob toggle to you because I am guessing you don't understand how it works. It is completely balanced with enemy caps, and no scaling whatsoever.

I am fine with any frame playing in a sortie. There are enough tough enemies for me to contribute in some way either with weapons or abilities. Sometimes sorties can go by way too slow. 

 

I don't want the ability nerfed. I want it reworked. You don't have to worry about placement, or aiming, or anything. It's a forever toggle that kills everything for you, as it is now. (Unless you're doing a lvl100 sortie). They could make it do more damage, strip Shields and armor instantly, I don't care. Just don't make it a forever toggle that takes zero effort.

 

I'm also completely behind you on matchmaking. It's either random, or we have a chat. There should be a separate interface specifically for matchmaking. As it is now is outdated and a slog.

 

I also call it a noob toggle because whoever is using it at lowers levels doesn't want to learn how to point and shoot a gun. It's easy mode. I don't care who does it at what mastery rank. It's a noob scrub setup, that's all. Again, would love to see more embers in high level sorties, but I never do.

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

I don't want the ability nerfed. I want it reworked. 

You should know when it comes to this game that the word "rework" is synonymous to "nerf" when it comes to an ability that a group of people whine "annoying" and "steals my fun". Telos Boltace got quite the grand "rework" when it got the Stormpath passive that is so useless, I can't even equip the melee or I handicap myself.

[robbybe01234]

11 hours ago, shoopypit said:

 

 

It's also more than just "being effective". Is it fun playing with a wof ember? not in the least. Is it fun playing as one? Same. It's fine if you enjoy running around having a toggled ability kill everything for you. Just know that the rest of us are bored as F***, and look at you like a n00b scrub.

If you were looking for an example of toxicity, I think this is on the mark.  Not an ability being inherently toxic, but a person's attitude. 

[ThorienKELL]

21 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

Wow hit a nerve huh. No need to get defensive. Congrats for having all frames. I have a hard time keeping up. Just got harrow, super cool kit. The thing is, you need kills with him to support your comrades. Can't do it when an ember equips range and steals the bodies. That's my only point.

This is unfortunately nothing new. Ask EV trin when whole team screams where is the energy and she cannot find one single alive enemy. Or sary when she's trying to spread spores but enemies die too fast. Or nidus when you need stacks /enemies to hit but they are too few and you're bleeding more energy then you can get back. Or inaros when I setup nice and useful scarab swarm infected mobs that infect more incoming mobs and heal us all but then my teammates kill them all. Or nekros when temmates keep evaporating mobs using chanelling or arca plasmor. Examples are numerous.

Thing is - if you cannot find enemies for harrow chances are your teammates don't need healing or energy. Secret it to bring frame for the job, find your role, be a good teammate. Nova that illuminates targets (beside all other bonuses) is very useful on eidolon (and pretty much anywhere else). Mesa and ember defend the objectives but also frames like vauban or frost can contribute. Energy is abundant on plains so supporters are not necessary. 

[shoopypit]

1 hour ago, robbybe01234 said:

If you were looking for an example of toxicity, I think this is on the mark.  Not an ability being inherently toxic, but a person's attitude. 

Ah. How edgy. Calling someone toxic. The topic is about embers wof ability. I said it makes people look like a noob scrub when all they do is mod around this ability and leave it toggled on for the entire mission, leaving the rest of us bored the entire time. It isn't difficult to mod for. It doesn't display any skill or mastery over the game or the frame itself. It's literally been the scrub noob frame the entire time. It used to be primarily the.mercury frame. Back when it was the best place to quick level weapons. It always has been and is currently the noob scrub ability. 

I don't quit missions where this happens. I don't troll them or anything either, in the off chance that they are having fun, while the rest of us have nothing to do. I leave them to it. I'll just start fishing or something when I see this happen

[shoopypit]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

You should know when it comes to this game that the word "rework" is synonymous to "nerf" when it comes to an ability that a group of people whine "annoying" and "steals my fun". Telos Boltace got quite the grand "rework" when it got the Stormpath passive that is so useless, I can't even equip the melee or I handicap myself.

I could care less about what you or others consider a nerf. Usually it involves not trying any new mod setups and getting upset because it doesn't work the same way. I have seen people absolutely wreck with reworks for ash and mesa. What's great is.now they usually don't take all the kills, and even if they do, it's with actual input from the player, and it certainly isn't for the whole mission

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

Ah. How edgy. Calling someone toxic. The topic is about embers wof ability. I said it makes people look like a noob scrub when all they do is mod around this ability and leave it toggled on for the entire mission, leaving the rest of us bored the entire time. It isn't difficult to mod for. It doesn't display any skill or mastery over the game or the frame itself. It's literally been the scrub noob frame the entire time. It used to be primarily the.mercury frame. Back when it was the best place to quick level weapons. It always has been and is currently the noob scrub ability.

Implying that there is skill in an exterminate mission. You keep using "scrub noob". I think you should use new vocabulary, because those two words alone show everyone in this thread what your point is.

1 minute ago, shoopypit said:

I could care less about what you or others consider a nerf. Usually it involves not trying any new mod setups and getting upset because it doesn't work the same way. I have seen people absolutely wreck with reworks for ash and mesa. What's great is.now they usually don't take all the kills, and even if they do, it's with actual input from the player, and it certainly isn't for the whole mission

Ash right now is an engine for covert lethality. I have invested heavily in Ash trying to make something interesting and I come to the same conclusion: Blade Storm is useless because the cinematic lock and the bleed effect doesn't even let you proc Trickery. This thread is not about Ash though, it is about Ember. I used Ash for mere history to show you what a "rework" is when something is "overpowered". DE ruins entire kits this way. I don't think I should need to talk about Mag too. Ember does require input. When you reach level 50, Ember cannot use WoF alone. The input of weapons is required in higher levels. You make it seem like Ember is some god in level 20 missions when in that tier, Equinox does the same thing.

[robbybe01234]

On 1/11/2018 at 1:53 AM, kuciol said:

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by robbybe01234
Wrong person.

[robbybe01234]

23 minutes ago, shoopypit said:

Ah. How edgy. Calling someone toxic. The topic is about embers wof ability. I said it makes people look like a noob scrub when all they do is mod around this ability and leave it toggled on for the entire mission, leaving the rest of us bored the entire time. It isn't difficult to mod for. It doesn't display any skill or mastery over the game or the frame itself. It's literally been the scrub noob frame the entire time. It used to be primarily the.mercury frame. Back when it was the best place to quick level weapons. It always has been and is currently the noob scrub ability. 

I don't quit missions where this happens. I don't troll them or anything either, in the off chance that they are having fun, while the rest of us have nothing to do. I leave them to it. I'll just start fishing or something when I see this happen

Look, abilities being toxic started being discussed a couple pages ago. We can't go down that road because an ability isn't capable of being toxic a person or interaction between people are.

I looked through a couple of you're previous post and you seem like you live in a world of perceived slights.  You may want to take some responsibility for your own lack of enjoyment instead of passing it of on someone you FEEL is out to give you a bad time.

[Inquizitor]

Ember & Mesa should finally get a nerf.

Im using ember from time to time, she is without doubt the most beautiful Prime-frame in the game. However the idea of press4towin makes me sick and im feeling ashamed whenever im stealing kills of my allies.

Issue of ember is, that she is for early/midgame, which is unfortunately 99% of the warframe.

Ember efficiency goes down in missions such as sorties and kuva floods. But thats about it.

 

Additionally, as a matter of fact, she can enter even lategame. Even sorties/floods/raids with just +100% additional ability strength. That and flash accelerant augment. That, and she can take on lvls of even 100+

Edited January 12, 2018 by Inquizitor
I got another idea

[shoopypit]

3 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

Look, abilities being toxic started being discussed a couple pages ago. We can't go down that road because an ability isn't capable of being toxic a person or interaction between people are.

I looked through a couple of you're previous post and you seem like you live in a world of perceived slights.  You may want to take some responsibility for your own lack of enjoyment instead of passing it of on someone you FEEL is out to give you a bad time.

It isn't my intent to make it seem like a personal slight. It's just clear that that build atracts s certain type of player that's better off alone

[(PSN)dZy_dEviL]

This thread is just a taste of what's to come.  With the influx of new players and Ember Prime unvaulting soon things are gonna get interesting 😂.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, shoopypit said:

It isn't my intent to make it seem like a personal slight. It's just clear that that build atracts s certain type of player that's better off alone

Yes, and it seems you are that type of player. You can't force people to go at your pace when they want to go faster. This whole thread attracts the whiners who want every ability to be clunky so fast players can be forced to go slow.

[Aimop95]

I personally think that it should show more fire. Things do die but they mostly die off screen and byond our view. I'd like to see more flaming pillars around me. Maybe that's just me though. I like the visual clutter.

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

8 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And what do you think is going to happen if DE caves in to whiners and nerfs Ember and Banshee? I can tell you what.

Next in line, they will start screaming to nerf Maim Equinox. Then Polarize/Crush Mag. Then Avalanche Frost. Then Divine Spear Nezha. Then Saryn, Nyx, Nova, Volt and probably even Trinity, because it is possible to build a Trinity that will clear Hydron/Helene as fast (if not faster) as a Soundquake Banshee. Until every single frame that can be used to efficiently farm low-tier content will get a nerfbat to the face. 

 

You want to play in a very specific way that suits just you personally and detest anything else? Play solo.

You want to play like that surrounded by people who feel the same? Find some friends and/or a clan. You can always form a team to chase grineer all across the map with nothing but Provas equipped using the Invite Only/Friends Only option.

You want to force every single player in the game to play like YOU want and if they do not comply, you want to take away their means to do so?.. Oh, so I guess this is what it was all about. Too bad, since Warframe is a very, very grindy game and there will *always* be people looking (and finding!) efficient ways to minimize time spent doing pathetically easy farming they have no way of avoiding (because see above - no high level alternatives). 

 

Part of me just wants to say: See? This is why we can't have good things.

But I remember when Valkyr, Nova and Ember were the only warframes I wanted to use. In fact, I spent the whole afternoon running solo sabotages on my Ember. She is powerful and I love it. I would love to Ember my way through all of the content, but with great power comes great...

Can we agree that we both like Ember and that we don't want to see her get nerfed? I'm thinking, perhaps if I start from here you will understand my intentions.

Now let's consider how it will affect the choices of the developers of Warframe when they see at least one "Ember's WoF is bad" thread on the forum per week and snapshots of mission summaries with one player having ALL the kills and the rest with zero. Will they see this as helping their bottomline or as providing a decent experience for their player base?

Then you have to ask yourself: Do I enjoy being in missions watching another player get all the kills? Is that the kind of experience I look forward to when I log in to Warframe?

My hopes, though naive, are that when players that overuse WoF see these threads, they self-regulate. Meaning they chill and take another frame once in a while, at least to public missions.I struggled with this in the beginning, because I knew that if I didn't bring my Ember, Frost or Saryn, someone else would. After thousands of hours, I don't care. Getting the most kills or doing the most damage are no longer more important as securing and completing objectives. However, there's nothing wrong with wanting to get the most kills/damage, but for me, it's much more rewarding when I can do it with nothing but my Nekros and Galatine Prime! I have a golden memory of me not only out-killing, but out-damaging an obnoxious WoF Ember (you know the ones that will bullet jump across the map to get the enemies you're fighting with) on Hydron with my Nezzie! Nezzie is OP, but many won't find out because they're stuck to one frame or the other.

[ThorienKELL]

5 hours ago, Inquizitor said:

Ember & Mesa should finally get a nerf.

Im using ember from time to time, she is without doubt the most beautiful Prime-frame in the game. However the idea of press4towin makes me sick and im feeling ashamed whenever im stealing kills of my allies.

 

I think, my friend and no offense in any way but your problems may be more of psychological nature and are possibly unresolved childhood trauma and issues. 

[Inquizitor]

1 hour ago, ThorienKELL said:

I think, my friend and no offense in any way but your problems may be more of psychological nature and are possibly unresolved childhood trauma and issues. 

Issues? Why so?

Try to understand it this way: Is it something good to make other people feel bad? Someone comes to warframe to have fun and relax. Suddenly Ember players uses 4...kills everything, and you have your fun over.

If you aim to kill literally everything on screen, without giving fair space to your allies, you can be considered as egoist. Which...is more than half of the WF community nowdays.

[robbybe01234]

28 minutes ago, Inquizitor said:

Issues? Why so?

Try to understand it this way: Is it something good to make other people feel bad? Someone comes to warframe to have fun and relax. Suddenly Ember players uses 4...kills everything, and you have your fun over.

If you aim to kill literally everything on screen, without giving fair space to your allies, you can be considered as egoist. Which...is more than half of the WF community nowdays.

Okay....

By your writing, I'm going to assume that you're first language is not English.  I may be responding to specific things that you didn't intend. 

"Is it something good to make other people feel bad"  This part.  This part is where you fall off the tracks.  What you're implying is that it should be one of my goals to make you, or someone else that you have never met, feel good.  This is not even close to reality.  Then this also implies that one of the goals of the Ember user is to make you or someone else feel bad.  This is not even close to reality.  I encourage you to consider that it is likely someone just trying to get missions done with a "hot" looking frame.

"If you aim to kill literally everything on screen, without giving fair space to your allies, you can be considered as egoist."  This is a leap to a conclusion that has no proof, and is just in your head.  But this opens another discussion regarding competition.  Can parts of Warframe be considered a competition for most "something?"  But even if we determine that "yes, it is a competition for most kills" then it may be the case that since you can't keep up, you're trying to lower the bar.  But that's a whole other thing. 

Just consider that people may not be out to get you and that these negative emotions you're getting are all on you.  Something that should not be my responsibility. 

.........That being said, her 4 could use some modernization.  Those are 2013 fire pillars.  We need some 2018 pillars. :)

Edited January 12, 2018 by robbybe01234
grammar

[QueenKharn]

Here's hoping Ember gets caught up in the balance sweep they talked about on the latest Dev Stream. More than a numbers adjustment is needed here.