Ember's WoF discussion; Does it deserve the hate?

[Inquizitor]

15 hours ago, robbybe01234 said:

By your writing, I'm going to assume that you're first language is not English.  I may be responding to specific things that you didn't intend. 

Speaking of grammar 

But you are correct in a way, English isnt my native lang. So and? I still can speak english way better than certain native american speakers.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

On 1/11/2018 at 2:11 PM, ThorienKELL said:

It's not an issue unless you make one for yourself. Ember is perfect as she is, one of most beloved and most played and most expensive (prime) warframes. You do not to repair thing that works, as would hardware repairmen say. I use her constantly and I never got any comment on her and if I do, nobody has to complain in PUG on anything really. You dislike it? Your problem. As for your recommendations: I'm an old guy, I've seen things like that happen million times. I do not take advises from players to developers seriously. Most of people, like 99% have no clue how difficult and demanding game design actually is - leave that to professionals. If you wanted to discuss potential improvements, you should titled your post differently. Not "hey all the people hate ember, maybe we should do something about it ... wink ...wink"

The very beginning was just a clear statement asking.. Why. Why do people hate her? Why does she get hate? Looking back off of what you've said before, I'm guessing you're still on with your own points while I'm stating my own. As for a statement I've made before about all the people in the discussion stating her ability doesn't scale, I was making a recommendation about how to possibly improve her ability. And as for your little statement about "You dislike it? Your problem," idea, just.. Well, I don't buy it. It's not just me. It goes along with the other people I've played with as ember getting called out, and it was even on missions on Hydron, just for leveling up. 

As for the way you tried to sum up how my title seemed misleading.. No? I was asking for an opinion. Sorry if my prompt statement somehow made you think otherwise.

[(PSN)ridiculous0815]

On 9.1.2018 at 6:28 PM, (Xbox One)ThermalStone said:

She gets some hate because of the "Push 4 to win."  Some players aren't happy unless they have to push a ton of buttons and overlap a bunch of complicated powers or weapons to get the same result.  Then they pat themsleves on the back for being "skilled".  

For the rest of us, Ember is great at clearing out trash mobs so we can finish low level alerts with a minimum of fuss.  

I agree 100%

[(PSN)pkmntrainerred19]

Unless you’re one of those idiots who turns on WOF & stands there, ignore the hate. If you are that type of player, you deserve the hate. 

[Peter]

Some peoples are talking about Banshee Quake, but actually Banshee is only usefull in idle missions, we can't take a banshee to do exterminations, etc... and Quake is only effective vs low level enemies, you can't do more than 30 min on Hydron without a Trinity because if you leave to take energy orbs you can easily die.

Banshee is the famous Glass Cannon.

Edited January 18, 2018 by peterkas

[(PSN)Kobayashy82]

To answer the question, no it doesn't.

Long time fan of the game, but not very active on the forum. English is not my native language so i prefer not to get involved in heated discussions on the forums.

Ember is one of my favorite frames in Warframe and that's why I wanted to offer my perspective because I don't want her to be changed(nerfed). I play Warframe on and off for about 4 years now and accumulated about 1000 hours of playtime, MR23, etc. I played all the other good and fun games that have come out this past few years but I find myself always coming back to this wonderful free to play game for that power fantasy of being OP and wipeing out entire rooms of enemies. Thank you DE by the way, and I also bought some platinum every time I come back to the game to offer my support. I don't now, for me Warframe is the definition of OP, almost every frame if you mod-it right can become OP and that's what's fun about this game to me, and to all the friends I play with.

I remember distinctly at the beginning, 4 years ago when this game came to PS4 and I started playing it, just a newbie with my invis Loki struggling to survive some 5 min survival or defense with my Skana and Braton and then I saw the "most wonderful thing in the world"...a Rhino doing a stomp that wiped the hole map!!! I said GOD DAMN!! I MUST HAVE THAT, THAT'S AWESOME!! Right there and then this game had me. I went for the first time on the Warframe Wiki to search for information on how to obtain Rhino warframe and I never stopped playing this game from then on. Except when another great game comes along and I go play that for a little while and take a brake from Warframe, but I always come back....always, and I will play it on PS5 to if it comes to that to:)  Anyway, you now what I mean. 

So you see, maybe it's not always a detriment for new players to see this ultimate OP warframes that wipe the map off enemies and maybe that's something that can drive them to search and want to obtain that frame to become that powerful also themselves. At least that's what did it for me. So please don't ask for more nerf's and reworks, this game is fun because of the op warframes and powers. Just look at Destiny 2 how bland and boring it has become with all the power and exotic nerf's. Everybody is leaving that game because of that.

Anyway, thanks DE for a wonderful game and keep up the good work, and just a side note, less Operator and more Warframe gameplay ok...please. Thank you:)

[BornWithTeeth]

Hell, from my perspective, Volt is ten times more obnoxious.

All Ember’s WoF does is kill low level enemies. The speed buff from Volt is super annoying, directly affects his team mates, screws with your control set up, and forces you to stop and literally do a backflip just to get rid of it, and then Volt just does it again ten seconds later. If Warframe had friendly fire engaged by default, I would spend much of my day shooting Volt mains in the head.

 

And yet...this is the only time I’ve ever said anything about it. You can go through my entire forum history and you will not find me ranting about Volt anywhere until today.

 

Suck it up.

Edited January 18, 2018 by BornWithTeeth

[Riasiru]

I'm sure it has already been said before, but the problem with Ember's WoF isn't that it is a bad skill to use. To the person who has it, it is very rewarding to those people... However, to the other three members of the squad who are, potentially, not playing for the prize of affinity or resource drops, it can be boring at best, frustrating at worst. What happens when a player is playing because, "I just wanted to have fun cleaving stuff in half with my galatine." Thing is, there is an Ember using WoF...

Then there's the argument, "Just run ahead of Ember so she hasn't had time to kill everything."  Which is fine and good, if the mission type allows it. Defense, mobile defense, and other such horde style mission setups don't allow that. Worse still, if Ember has Rush and your Warframe of choice simply doesn't have the mobility to out pace her.

"Abort the mission and try another pub." I think that argument simply admits there is a problem and tries to skirt the issue. 

"Just play solo." What did I just say about admitting there is a problem and skirting the issue? 

WoF; it's not a bad ability until it turns Warframe into a spectator sport. To anyone who is using WoF, be mindful of your allies. Turn it off now and then? When I run Ember I try to look at my allies and ask, why are they here? Would they have more fun if I didn't use WoF? I bring gear that ensures that regardless of WoF, I can play, be effective, and enjoy myself. Then again, I'm a team player who enjoys using Frost, Oberon, Equinox, Rhino, and Trinity so Ember isn't even on my radar of frames I load up most of the time. (Rhino is totes an amazing support frame. Roar some more!)

"I should be allowed to play the way I want." Yes, you should... But you should also understand that the same holds true of the people you play with. Simply playing the way you want and preventing those you play with from playing the way they want, intentionally or otherwise, is selfish. Maybe... If I may use an argument I've heard tossed around from time to time, though... "Just play solo." Of course, that brings us to someone like me and so I must now quote myself for once. "I'm a team player." 

But, anyway. That's just my buck fifty-five on the issue. Figured I'd add it in case it hadn't been said before, but to bring this full circle I'll just say, "I'm sure it has already been said before."

 

PS. A properly built Ember can kill enemies up to level 50... The few things that survive at that point drop fast if you pop her 2.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Riasiru

[Legion-Shields]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hell, from my perspective, Volt is ten times more obnoxious.

All Ember’s WoF does is kill low level enemies. The speed buff from Volt is super annoying, directly affects his team mates, screws with your control set up, and forces you to stop and literally do a backflip just to get rid of it, and then Volt just does it again ten seconds later. If Warframe had friendly fire engaged by default, I would spend much of my day shooting Volt mains in the head.

 

 

Wow all I ever see from you is hate for Volt mains. It wouldn't hurt you to post about something else every once in a while.

[Legion-Shields]

1 hour ago, Riasiru said:

 "I just wanted to have fun cleaving stuff in half with my galatine." Thing is, there is an Ember using WoF...

 

This is why guns > swords 

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, Legion-Shields said:

Wow all I ever see from you is hate for Volt mains. It wouldn't hurt you to post about something else every once in a while.

Wololol

[Jicematoro]

5 hours ago, Riasiru said:

"Abort the mission and try another pub." I think that argument simply admits there is a problem and tries to skirt the issue. 

"Just play solo." What did I just say about admitting there is a problem and skirting the issue?

See, here's the thing, if the ability isn't actively making the game impossible to win for you or the rest of the team, and the only real problem is that YOU don't like how the Ember gets all the kills, the problem isn't with Ember, it's with you.

If you don't tell the Ember that you'd prefer if she shut down her WoF, and instead go to the forums to complain about how Embers are mean/selfish, the problem isn't the Ember, it's you.

If you tell the Ember to shut down WoF and she doesn't, here we have 2 problems that directly collide with each other, one is you, who wants to force the Ember to play your way, and the other is not the Ember, but the player who would rather play their way.

Between you 2, no one has any more rights than the other, so the sensible thing, is either getting used to it, or Leave! You are freed of the problem that you have, and the Ember can finish the mission in peace. Don't ban the fire for burning you, be reasonable and avoid the fire.

I will not deny that if the Ember refuses to stop using her WoF they're kind of a butt, but honestly, same can be said about the guy that doesn't want her to play her way.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Jicematoro

[BadBoyBilly42582]

When I first played ember and experienced her WOF, I thought it was pretty cool.  However like people have said, she doesn't scale as well as some other frames do.  When I activated her WOF, I would only do it if we got overwhelmed by adds.  I personally don't like keeping it on all the time because I want to give other players a chance.

 

At the moment, Frost is my go to.....  He's seriously a jack of all trades frame.  He's a tank, he can be defensive and he can be offensive.  I love having all those characteristics in one frame.  Was going to spend plat on his prime version because I missed out on the Amazon Prime deal.  Then when DE revealed he's being unvaulted in February, I held off on purchasing him and will just farm for him.

[TARINunit9]

On 1/9/2018 at 9:00 AM, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

Yes. I'm the boogyman that creeps around the corner, stealing kills on Hydron, keeping the tenno on edge as I throw down pizzas, getting quick and easy energy with a build for WoF that lasts for an eternity. Yeah, I'm that guy. Jokes aside, does she really deserve all the hate she recieves from other players? Me, being a personal fan of playing Ember, find her fun and lazy. Some complain about that, but what about the Nuke Banshee? Why hate on an Ember when you can't even see the enemies leave their spawn areas from a screeching Banshee when she can effortlessly finish a FULL game of Hydron for about 10 or 15 waves in around 5-10 minutes? Maybe less? Anyways, I've played multiple games of Hydron, only to be called out for having a build for my WoF, and I just tell them the same thing. Don't hate the player, hate the game. People shouldn't get mad for how something was programmed to function that way, and for me to get called out for it seems unnecessary. 

On 1/9/2018 at 9:04 AM, --Q--Voltage said:

Ember isn't even the slightest over powered or anything of that sort. World on Fire doesn't scale. People get mad because they want fairness and want everyone to have equal kills. That's why the Telos Boltace was nerfed into oblivion, why Synoid Simulor is now junk, and why Maiming Strike is in the headlights.

This is a PvE game, and complaining about things like WoF is beyond me as it makes your mission easier and more efficient.

Lemme give you guys my two cents on this. It's been a week, you've probably already heard this, but I need to get it off my chest

So I'm your teammate. I join in public, I've either got a relic I want to open or we're hunting an acolyte or we're after one of those Grineer vs Corpus nodes or something. And you as Ember delete every enemy in the mission just by existing

On one hand, I'm in Public matchmaing. I know full well what I'm getting into. If I didn't want this, I would play solo or go to Recruiting

But at the same time, I'm not engaged. I'm bored. I have no enemies to interact with, which is the point of a PvE game. By giving Ember an ability that deletes all enemies from the area, and by using her, three of the four players in the squad are misson are not getting to actually play the game

There's bad design in there somewhere. It's overstated, but it's still existent. Ember speeds up smash-and-grab missions, which is fine, but she does it a little too well. Telos Broltace did it way too well, Synoid Simulor did it way too well, that's why they were in the same boat. Ember doesn't scale nearly as high as those two did, but she still needs her design tweaked somehow

[Voltage]

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Lemme give you guys my two cents on this. It's been a week, you've probably already heard this, but I need to get it off my chest

So I'm your teammate. I join in public, I've either got a relic I want to open or we're hunting an acolyte or we're after one of those Grineer vs Corpus nodes or something. And you as Ember delete every enemy in the mission just by existing

On one hand, I'm in Public matchmaing. I know full well what I'm getting into. If I didn't want this, I would play solo or go to Recruiting

But at the same time, I'm not engaged. I'm bored. I have no enemies to interact with, which is the point of a PvE game. By giving Ember an ability that deletes all enemies from the area, and by using her, three of the four players in the squad are misson are not getting to actually play the game

There's bad design in there somewhere. It's overstated, but it's still existent. Ember speeds up smash-and-grab missions, which is fine, but she does it a little too well. Telos Broltace did it way too well, Synoid Simulor did it way too well, that's why they were in the same boat. Ember doesn't scale nearly as high as those two did, but she still needs her design tweaked somehow

I totally understand, but the nature of this game is wiping grunts. It is not like Ember is the ONLY example of something that can wipe maps. If we nerf and change every single ability/weapon that clears rooms, Warframe starts to lose its feel which is being overpowered to lower mobs. It is not my fault that this game is centered around level 50 content. When you get to the point where you take 5 forma Ember with specific weapon setups and wipe rooms, level 50 is basically Earth and enemies are a joke.

Her design is not a problem, it is the player-base. If you want to be killing stuff in a pub, you cannot blame the gear because of an efficient player. They don't need Ember to do what you describe as boring. It is physically impossible to fix this type of player. This is why I have said throughout this thread: The issue is Matchmaking. I also want to add that mission design is also to blame for being extremely low level for "end game" and thus creating a scenario where MR 2s are with MR 25s who blow through Lith-Axi fissures like Swiss Cheese. Proper matchmaking and mission design, and you will never encounter these players, and they won't have their gear nerfed because the player-base whines about it.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Her design is not a problem, it is the player-base. 

I at least sort of agree with everything else you wrote, so lemme pick at this nit real fast: DE's comments on Valkyr most recent nerf disagree with you, and if I'm reading their philosophy on the latest Telos Broltace nerf that one also disagrees with you

Ember's design contributes to the problem because it's too passive for too much benefit. Valkyr was changed so you can't stay invincible forever without drawbacks mounting up -- this in theory incentivizes judging when to jump in and when to break away. The Telos Broltace was changed so you need to go back to combos as you wait for your Stormpath to recharge -- this in theory incentivizes using those combo stances that no one except DE cares about because Warframe is not Devil May Cry.

Ember needs something tweaked so the answer isn't always "charge"

[(XBOX)Bieltan]

I for one dont mind WoF Embers. Sometimes I do the heavy lifting during pubs, others I have someone murdering everything for me whilst I pick stuff up and gain xp, helping out with the occasional large enemy. It all balances itself out in the end.

[[DE]Momaw]

As per first page, the reasons World on Fire is terrible and deserves all the hate it gets, and needs a rework, are

1.) It prevents the rest of the team from doing anything. It's a cooperative game, and there is a serious problem when one player can unilaterally auto-kill everything so efficiently that other team members don't get to play.

2.) It is extremely lazy, literally press 1 button and run around while stuff dies. The most powerful ways to play should be the ones that require the most player skill and interaction.  Why would you ever use a weapon that you have to aim and can only hit 1 enemy at a time (95% of guns) or is only effective at very short range (95% of melee) when you have this option to get more xp and more loot for a lot less effort?  You like World on Fire because other players carry you and you get all the rewards with zero effort? No. That's terrible design.

Veterans should earn more rewards and faster mission clears, I agree.  But that should happen through experience and familiarity with game mechanics, in a way that doesn't literally prevent everybody else from playing, rather than being able to press 1 button and turn Warframe into a walking simulator.

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

19 hours ago, Riasiru said:

"Abort the mission and try another pub." I think that argument simply admits there is a problem and tries to skirt the issue. 

"Just play solo." What did I just say about admitting there is a problem and skirting the issue? 

Nothing convincing at all. Your entire post is "I don't like it" and you pretend you're making solid logical points when it's purely your opinion. (You're hardly alone in this thread, but none the less, that's what you did.)

[LinkXx47]

you know people who complain about getting affinity and loot have some serious first world problems/backwards logic. To kill enemies as fast and efficiently as possible is kind of the point of this game... If you want to handicap yourself, and kill a mob you literally killed a thousand times before, just play solo? So no WoF is fine the way it is.

Edited January 26, 2018 by LinkXx47

[Xexshion]

4 hours ago, LinkXx47 said:

you know people who complain about getting affinity and loot have some serious first world problems/backwards logic. To kill enemies as fast and efficiently as possible is kind of the point of this game... If you want to handicap yourself, and kill a mob you literally killed a thousand times before, just play solo? So no WoF is fine the way it is.

Then that's not a game. May as well just join a mission, have the loot and affinity automatically added - and just have the mission end, or why bother even joining a mission or starting the game at all -- have all that stuff just automatically accumulate waiting for you when you login next time. Might be surprising to learn that many people don't want to be carried - many people play in groups for dynamic interactions, not to watch one player play -- better question to 'just play solo'? Why doesn't the ember just play solo - she's obviously not there for group interaction.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 minutes ago, Xexshion said:

Then that's not a game. May as well just join a mission, have the loot and affinity automatically added - and just have the mission end, or why bother even joining a mission or starting the game at all -- have all that stuff just automatically accumulate waiting for you when you login next time. Might be surprising to learn that many people don't want to be carried - many people play in groups for dynamic interactions, not to watch one player play -- better question to 'just play solo'? Why doesn't the ember just play solo - she's obviously not there for group interaction.

neither are any other crowd control frames, based on your rhetoric. News flash, they are a part of the game. It is not fair to tell somebody who likes CC frames "Yo, screw off you CC plebian! Go play by yourself and stop being cancer!" Warframe is a game that we play in a way we view as fun. That said, people are always going to be upset because they have differing viewpoints of what "fun" actually is.

[kubbi]

I personally dont mind Embers 4th. Depending on the situation. When running a relic mission for example I'd like to get them over with quik which she does. Though I dont play with her often. It does get boring but to each to their own. So yeah I dont think she deserves the hate but I can see why people can be pissed about it.

She did give me the insight to notice that a lot of players dont seem to know how the xp system works. Often I see players with Ember on leveling maps with their unmaxed weapons and they use world of fire. Either they dont know that 100% of warframe kills goes to your warframe alone and not weapons or they arent in a rush to level idk. 

[Nottezio]

Oohh boiii. I thinks it's on the warframe, because I play equinox with range and efficiency build who only knows how to press 3 and 4 and the enemies are gone, never get that much hate for this.

[(XBOX)Bieltan]

1 minute ago, Nottezio said:

Oohh boiii. I thinks it's on the warframe, because I play equinox with range and efficiency build who only knows how to press 3 and 4 and the enemies are gone, never get that much hate for this.

I've been doing this lately too. If you have Embers/Banshees/Novas etc with you.... *evil grin, slight dribble*