Loki: Thoughts And Suggestions

[Bakercompany86]

So I've spent a fair amount of time with the Loki now (all of my play time, literally).

I think he's an excellent Warframe who is a lot of fun to play.  He's got good balance by being ultra squishy, but also the fastest and he can technically avoid all damage if he's got the energy.  I also happen to love his look, including his helmet.

 

My gripe is with some of his abilities.  They're neat, but considering the complete lack of damage from them, they do not have the utility to adequately compensate (in my opinion).

This applies to two out of four of his moves, and the other two could use a tweak of improvement.  Here's how I look at it:

 

Decoy:  Decoy is a great move.  Despite what I've read, it lasts plenty long to justify 25 energy even in nightmare/endgame content.  Fully upgraded, which doesn't take much, you can control firelanes and get heat off of you or your teammates.  The only thing that needs to change about Decoy is the size of it's hitbox.  Honestly seeing that it's a hologram, friendly shots should pass straight through it.  This change alone would greatly improve the effectiveness of Decoy.  Otherwise, his hitbox needs to be shrunk down.  When it looks like i'm shooting the face of the grineer just over his shoulder, i'm actually hitting an invisible portion of it which ends up blocking my shot.  This could use a change, I say make it completely transparent for shots.

 

Invisibility:  Not a lot to complain about here.  For up to 30 seconds, you can almost completely avoid damage.  There is either a glitch or intended gameplay mechanic that sometimes when you go invisible, the nearby enemies will absolutely unload on you.  Dumping their entire magazines into you no matter how far you run (and even around corners it seems sometimes).  I've tested this theory, and it's for sure.  You go invis, and sometimes an enemy will go apesh*t on you.  I typically use it with decoy, so this isn't a huge deal as the decoy draws the fire.  

What I really would like to see changed with invisibility is the distortion of your view when you go invisible.  I don't mind the sound muffling, but you lose roughly 65% of your vision when you turn invisible and it can be a little disorienting.  Can we tone that down a bit?  I want to go invisible, not blind.  However, if invisibility never changed I'd still be happy with it as it's utility cannot be denied.

 

Switch Teleport:  Okay maybe I'm incorrect, but this seems to be one of the only abilities shared by a Warframe and an enemy unit.  I also find little use in this ability.  Yes you can swap out a teammate in a sticky situation, go invisible, and both of you benefit.  Of course without voice chat in random groups, this can be incredibly disorienting to your teammate as they'll have no warning of it.  It can also be used to grief/troll teammates, which isn't cool.  And yes I know you can switch teleport your decoy as well, using it to reach otherwise inaccessible areas.  Ultimately, this move needs a complete rework or replacement in my opinion.  I wouldn't mind this move disappearing altogether and being replaced by something much cooler (like a CC of some sort).  For 75 energy, hardly worth the effort in most cases.  Especially seeing as how your teammates rarely want to be switched out, and switching with an enemy can land you surrounded by foes.

 

Radial Disarm:  This move is neat, and has good utility.  But lets face it, it's useless in a third of the game.  Is there another Warframe who's ultimate ability is useless against an entire faction?  IMO this move needs a great amount of reworking.  Yes you can stop an entire room full of grineer/corpus from shooting, only to have them switch to melee and swarm you (this isn't always a good thing).  But that's about it.  They aren't slowed, they aren't damaged.  This move for 100 energy could use a bit more.  How about a snare?  Not only permanently disarming, but permanently slowing as well?  This would actually make it useful for Infested.  And how about a damage over time also?  Something to make this ability worth 100 energy.  As it is, I rarely if ever use it.  Now you can play very smart with it, especially if you're a shotgun user.  Pop radial disarm, and laugh as you casually stroll backwards and drop a roomful of enemies.  But as I stated above, this move could use a bit of love.

 

Anyway, not a rant or anything.  I'm not angry about the status of Loki, I love him and enjoy playing him.  But his group usefulness is underwhelming.  Most/all groups would rather have a Nova/Rhino/Frost/Vauban/Ember/Mag etc etc in your place as they have abilities that can save the entire group in a pinch.  The Loki doesn't have this.  He has the easiest time at reviving squadmates, that's about it. 

 

Just thought he could use a little love.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Neruell]

Totally agree on every point here.

 

Just a side opinion about Loki's abilities and probably also some of the older frames. Since they were designed long ago and now have to "compete" with new things that came up (new enemies, lvls, frames, weapons...) I think that not only Loki has to be "taken under radar".

[Desauron]

1. decoy shouldnt take any damage, its a hologram!

2. everything ok

3. its a small bug from time to time, that you get near then, or they get near you, but your not swaping position

4. disarm guns AND should do a stun non-biological units, and a permanent malfunction to their gear (slowed or moving with a handicap). The major point is that, it should affect non-biological units not only a small part (the guns). Including bosses to.

P.S: loki is my favorite, playing as loki from before update 7 and still love it !

[Bakercompany86]

I kinda figured Loki took a backseat to the newer frames.  So now we have these new, awesome frames with incredible abilities.

 

And then we have Loki, who's abilities are really designed to enable him to run and hide.

 

Yes with a good shotgun, you can decoy/invis and level a group of guys.  But you're still doing all the work and spending ammo AND energy.  Where as a Mag hits one button and watches a dozen enemies die.

 

I'm not asking for easy mode.  I just want Loki's abilities to be on par with the other frames.  He has little to no group utility.

 

I agree completely that a hologram shouldn't take damage.  It's a hologram....that would increase its effectiveness on things like Alerts and Nightmare Defense when the decoy is shredded in seconds.

 

Even in Loki's description it labels him as a unit for "advanced players" with abilities that allow him to "control the battlefield".  

 

I think that's false advertisement.  I think what makes him for advanced players is the fact that he's so damn squishy and you have to evade like a boss in order to survive, especially since energy isn't always available (I also think the energy system needs to be changed, but that's another topic).

 

IF the decoy is able to take damage, I think it should be able to deal damage too =)

[Kobalt]

OP Switch Teleport had it's energy cost reduced by a lot a while back! I'd get on and check that again if I were you! I think everyone has a laundry list of changes they'd make to frames they play if they could.

The decoy change is very nice, the way I use it I'd forgotten about it's blocking. I think it has to have collision to e targetable for Switch Teleport, but I don't think having all bullets pass through it would be much of an issue. I personally think that it should be time focused over having an arbitrary amount of health and shields. I believe it is killable to prevent it from scaling infinitely like most utility does, but as a frame that only brings utility his utility being good is ok. I think it would be best if it dies after x hits of melee [destroys emitter], but ignores bullets.

Switch Teleport, aside form bugs, has always had one major issue for me...The animation! It delays your actions for a bit, in high level play it can make it's use in some situations very bad [death on arrival before you can cloak]. Some people suggest an AoE stun or that the switched target gain enemy aggro for a couple seconds. I on the otherhand say kill the delay on arrival. That and open up some possibilities for the skill, allow players to switch tp team mates who are actively using ubers. Though it has griefing potential, it also has cool factor for when people aren't being asses.

As for Radial Disarm it isn't entirely useless vs. the infested. It does damage to the mooks, though I haven't figured out exactly how that damage works. In the case of runners/leaps it literally disarms them, visually removing limbs. Having it do damage has always kinda felt like a cop out to me. When I think trickster, I think of someone who turns the tide of battles. My ideal buff for Radial disarm is that it apply an AoE team buff along with removing weapons. The buff would drastically reduce melee damage received while granting stagger resistance for a moderate duration, say 20 seconds before continuity. That way it stays utility while being vastly more useful vs. infested. It also stops you from being consumed by roaming grineer raves!

[Azamagon]

This is how I'd imagine a Loki rework (including how the mods would affect them):

 

Decoy

Invulnerable, but also quite a bit shorter duration. Allies can shoot through it. Enemies that melee it suffer some of their own damage back at them! I'd maybe also make the Decoy visible (for Loki at least) through walls so you can Switch Teleport with it through walls!

Focus - Increases the return-damage

Stretch - Increases its taunting radius

Continuity - Increases its duration

 

Invisibility

Maybe reduce its distortions a little as the OP mentioned (The sound muffling and vision decrease). Otherwise, this is his by far most powerful move, so little changing needed for this one.

Focus - Increases melee bonus?

Stretch - ???

Continuity - Increased duration

 

Switch Teleport

First a correction: It doesn't cost 75 energy, only 25

So, how would i improve it? Well, whenever you switch with a target, you and the target gets a buff/debuff. Loki himself always gets a positive buff, and if the target you switch with is an ally it will also get the positive one, and if the target is an enemy it gets a negative one.

Positive buff (Loki/ally): Damage taken is reduced by 50%-ish, visualised by becoming slightly transparent.

Negative debuff (Enemy): The target will be stunned for 2-ish seconds, more susceptible to damage (up to 100%?) and all nearby enemies will think it is Loki, causing them to attack it (the target gets a high amount of aggro, higher than Decoy)

Both the buff and debuff could last for 6 or so seconds at max rank.

Focus - Increased Loki/ally damage-reduction and enemy damage-weakness

Stretch - Increased cast range and enemy aggrorange

Continuity - Increased buff and debuff duration

 

Radial Disarm

Possible change: Make the aoe castable at the target point, rather than just in an area around yourself? Regardless, all enemies affected will be disarmed (permanent duration, if they are disarmable in the first place) and will also suffer any damage they deal back at them self (up to 100% or so?) for up to 15 seconds (This return-damage-effect also works on bosses!) Combined in particular with Decoy and/or Switch Teleport, this skill can make the enemies kill themselves! >:D

Focus - Increases the return-damage amount

Stretch - Increases the effect radius

Continuity - Increases the return-damage duration

 

What do you think about these suggestions? :)

Edited August 4, 2013 by Azamagon

[Bakercompany86]

OP Switch Teleport had it's energy cost reduced by a lot a while back! I'd get on and check that again if I were you! I think everyone has a laundry list of changes they'd make to frames they play if they could.

The decoy change is very nice, the way I use it I'd forgotten about it's blocking. I think it has to have collision to e targetable for Switch Teleport, but I don't think having all bullets pass through it would be much of an issue. I personally think that it should be time focused over having an arbitrary amount of health and shields. I believe it is killable to prevent it from scaling infinitely like most utility does, but as a frame that only brings utility his utility being good is ok. I think it would be best if it dies after x hits of melee [destroys emitter], but ignores bullets.

Switch Teleport, aside form bugs, has always had one major issue for me...The animation! It delays your actions for a bit, in high level play it can make it's use in some situations very bad [death on arrival before you can cloak]. Some people suggest an AoE stun or that the switched target gain enemy aggro for a couple seconds. I on the otherhand say kill the delay on arrival. That and open up some possibilities for the skill, allow players to switch tp team mates who are actively using ubers. Though it has griefing potential, it also has cool factor for when people aren't being asses.

As for Radial Disarm it isn't entirely useless vs. the infested. It does damage to the mooks, though I haven't figured out exactly how that damage works. In the case of runners/leaps it literally disarms them, visually removing limbs. Having it do damage has always kinda felt like a cop out to me. When I think trickster, I think of someone who turns the tide of battles. My ideal buff for Radial disarm is that it apply an AoE team buff along with removing weapons. The buff would drastically reduce melee damage received while granting stagger resistance for a moderate duration, say 20 seconds before continuity. That way it stays utility while being vastly more useful vs. infested. It also stops you from being consumed by roaming grineer raves!

 

 

Personally, I think Switch Teleport needs to go in favor of something much more useful.  Even if you change the animations it's not that great of an ability for 75 energy (or is it different, I'm not sure).  

Regardless, it's Loki's "Tier 3" ability, and rather useless in it's current form.  An AoE stun upon landing would be fantastic.  That way switching into a group of enemies has a purpose.

 

For Radial Disarm, I do feel like damage would be a cop-out too.  That's why I suggested a snare, or snare with DoT.  Anything.  I'm aware it does damage currently, but the damage is highly negligible.  Definitely could use some love.

 

All of this, combined with Loki's ultra-squishy frame, creates a much less-useful frame for group play.

 

EDIT: Just saw where it's only 25 energy.  Good to know.  Still a bit useless imo.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Dasmir]

A fix to the god dammit sentinel bug.

[Bakercompany86]

This is how I'd imagine a Loki rework (including how the mods would affect them):

 

Decoy

Invulnerable, but also quite a bit shorter duration. Allies can shoot through it. Enemies that melee it suffer some of their own damage back at them! I'd maybe also make the Decoy visible (for Loki at least) through walls so you can Switch Teleport with it through walls!

Focus - Increases the return-damage

Stretch - Increases its taunting radius

Continuity - Increases its duration

 

Invisibility

Maybe reduce its distortions a little as the OP mentioned (The sound muffling and vision decrease). Otherwise, this is his by far most powerful move, so little changing needed for this one.

Focus - Increases melee bonus?

Stretch - ???

Continuity - Increased duration

 

Switch Teleport

First a correction: It doesn't cost 75 energy, only 25

So, how would i improve it? Well, whenever you switch with a target, you and the target gets a buff/debuff. Loki himself always gets a positive buff, and if the target you switch with is an ally it will also get the positive one, and if the target is an enemy it gets a negative one.

Positive buff (Loki/ally): Damage taken is reduced by 50%-ish, visualised by becoming slightly transparent.

Negative debuff (Enemy): The target will be stunned for 2-ish seconds, more susceptible to damage (up to 100%?) and all nearby enemies will think it is Loki, causing them to attack it (the target gets a high amount of aggro, higher than Decoy)

Both the buff and debuff could last for 6 or so seconds at max rank.

Focus - Increased Loki/ally damage-reduction and enemy damage-weakness

Stretch - Increased cast range and enemy aggrorange

Continuity - Increased buff and debuff duration

 

Radial Disarm

Possible change: Make the aoe castable at the target point, rather than just in an area around yourself? Regardless, all enemies affected will be disarmed (permanent duration, if they are disarmable in the first place) and will also suffer any damage they deal back at them self (up to 100% or so?) for up to 15 seconds (This return-damage-effect also works on bosses!) Combined in particular with Decoy and/or Switch Teleport, this skill can make the enemies kill themselves! >:D

Focus - Increases the return-damage amount

Stretch - Increases the effect radius

Continuity - Increases the return-damage duration

 

What do you think about these suggestions? :)

 

 

Okay I reaaaaaally like your ideas with decoy.  The melee-return-damage aspect alone makes radial disarm massively useful.  THIS would be closer to the battlefield manipulation that Loki is described as having.  Fantastic idea!  And yes still make it transparent for allies.

 

As for switch teleport, I like your buff idea.  Perhaps a massive melee buff with a damage resistance buff upon the teleport?  That way Loki switches in, and can start slicing people up (this also accounts for his squishiness and lack of utility).  Decoy, switch, radial disarm, and have at it!  I would LOVE this.

 

Also causing radial disarm to enable damage reflection is a great idea!!!  I think that's better than the other suggestions.  Permanent disarm with melee attacks causing feedback damage.  This should also stack with Decoy, thus Loki can cause swarms of enemies to literally kill themselves.  This also increases it's usefulness against Infected by a large amount.

 

SOLID IDEAS!!! +1!!

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[druindo]

I have to say I like some of these ideas for Loki, but before I say any more about Loki, I feel that I should note that I have only played Warframe about 3 days, so I haven't seen some of the issues that are mentioned; as of right now, I've also only played solo. If I mention something that someone else has already mentioned, my apologies, I am just trying to state what I think.

 

I love how fast Loki is! I use this for guerrilla warfare. If I had to choose between boosting his abilities, but lowering his speed, or keeping his abilities and speed the same, I'd say to keep it the same, because the speed can make his abilities that much more useful.

 

In regards to Decoy, I think that a small tweak, such as a decreased hit box or invulnerability for the decoy would be helpful. My other thoughts for how to improve the decoy would be to give it some sort of damage reduction (say remove w/x/y/z% of damage dealt per hit to the decoy) or perhaps give a partial energy refund when the decoy is destroyed by combat (i.e. if it would last 10 seconds, but dies after 2, you get back 80% of the energy used). Either of these, in my opinion, would help the decoy. Another thing I think would be helpful would be if the decoy didn't vanish (or offered a full refund) if placed in an area that causes it to instantly die, because it's very frustrating to miss the target and waste energy.

 

As for Loki's Invisibility, I agree that it is a very useful tool, but it is so expensive for its duration! If it lasted longer or were cheaper, I'd be less hesitant to use it. As it is, Decoy grants me more protection and is less likely to bug and let enemies obliterate me than Invisibility.

 

Loki's Switch Teleport is great ability. I do wish it had a longer range, however. I would also like the ability to switch with explosives barrels, because that is exactly what a trickster would do. I do agree that the cast animation takes too long, so if that were shortened it would be great, but the power is still good now. I do think that there needs to be some sort of mandatory aggro on the target of the swap, as others have mentioned, so as to represent the confusion caused (half a second or more would be great.)

 

I haven't used Radial Disarm much, but it doesn't seem to be all that useful, since enemies start firing a couple seconds later (though I may be overestimating the range, in which case it needs to be increased a bit at lower levels, please).

 

As of right now, these are the things that I find great about Loki, but some just need a bit of a boost.

 

Thanks for hearing me out.

[Bakercompany86]

I have to say I like some of these ideas for Loki, but before I say any more about Loki, I feel that I should note that I have only played Warframe about 3 days, so I haven't seen some of the issues that are mentioned; as of right now, I've also only played solo. If I mention something that someone else has already mentioned, my apologies, I am just trying to state what I think.

 

I love how fast Loki is! I use this for guerrilla warfare. If I had to choose between boosting his abilities, but lowering his speed, or keeping his abilities and speed the same, I'd say to keep it the same, because the speed can make his abilities that much more useful.

 

In regards to Decoy, I think that a small tweak, such as a decreased hit box or invulnerability for the decoy would be helpful. My other thoughts for how to improve the decoy would be to give it some sort of damage reduction (say remove w/x/y/z% of damage dealt per hit to the decoy) or perhaps give a partial energy refund when the decoy is destroyed by combat (i.e. if it would last 10 seconds, but dies after 2, you get back 80% of the energy used). Either of these, in my opinion, would help the decoy. Another thing I think would be helpful would be if the decoy didn't vanish (or offered a full refund) if placed in an area that causes it to instantly die, because it's very frustrating to miss the target and waste energy.

 

As for Loki's Invisibility, I agree that it is a very useful tool, but it is so expensive for its duration! If it lasted longer or were cheaper, I'd be less hesitant to use it. As it is, Decoy grants me more protection and is less likely to bug and let enemies obliterate me than Invisibility.

 

Loki's Switch Teleport is great ability. I do wish it had a longer range, however. I would also like the ability to switch with explosives barrels, because that is exactly what a trickster would do. I do agree that the cast animation takes too long, so if that were shortened it would be great, but the power is still good now. I do think that there needs to be some sort of mandatory aggro on the target of the swap, as others have mentioned, so as to represent the confusion caused (half a second or more would be great.)

 

I haven't used Radial Disarm much, but it doesn't seem to be all that useful, since enemies start firing a couple seconds later (though I may be overestimating the range, in which case it needs to be increased a bit at lower levels, please).

 

As of right now, these are the things that I find great about Loki, but some just need a bit of a boost.

 

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

 

When you upgrade your Invisibility and possibly use Continuity (ability duration increase) Invisibility lasts around 30 seconds, it's nuts.  Well worth it in the future.

[Bakercompany86]

Seems like there are very few Loki players on these forums...

[Nightshyft]

There are a few Loki players...we just get shouted down alot. It seems everytime we bring up the topic that we would like to make changes to Loki we get harrassed about not knowing how to play Loki and that he is the most balanced frame of the lot.

 

As for your changes, I completely agree with all of them. Switch Teleport....the least used of my powers. A stun on port would solve all issues and make it work in a crowded room(I have always wondered the thought pattern that has the squishiest frame teleporting INTO a group as he takes someone elses place. Stun on port would allow Loki to invis after landing(providing he has energy) or to at least survire the intial onslaught.

 

Decoy is a hologram....holograms are not solid....you get the rest.

 

Invisibility please remove the ugly yellow glare....have it match our frame coloring at least.

 

And I hate Radial Disarm....don't get me wrong, I use it....just at later high end levels it does NOT make a significant impact on the battlefield. It's range and ability to be blocked by obstructions makes it useless. AND, again, with his squishiness, melee is only slightly better as they do rush you(invis is only viable if you have energy)...and add in later levels where they just keep coming, I now have melee AND range(the new guys coming into the room) hitting me.My Flash Mob idea would work better(multiple decoys that move....if capable).

 

Otherwise...great ideas.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Nightshyft

[MageMeat]

Seems like there are very few Loki players on these forums...

We are legion.

But as for Loki's abilities, I just want A) Decoy to be invulnerable, B) Switch Teleport to be useful outside of moving Toxic Ancients from the pod and escaping, and C) Radial Disarm to do something to infested other than damage Chargers. Like remove Ancient's abilities, and prevent Runners from exploding.

[Tesrac]

 

So I've spent a fair amount of time with the Loki now (all of my play time, literally).

I think he's an excellent Warframe who is a lot of fun to play.  He's got good balance by being ultra squishy, but also the fastest and he can technically avoid all damage if he's got the energy.  I also happen to love his look, including his helmet.

 

My gripe is with some of his abilities.  They're neat, but considering the complete lack of damage from them, they do not have the utility to adequately compensate (in my opinion).

This applies to two out of four of his moves, and the other two could use a tweak of improvement.  Here's how I look at it:

 

Decoy:  Decoy is a great move.  Despite what I've read, it lasts plenty long to justify 25 energy even in nightmare/endgame content.  Fully upgraded, which doesn't take much, you can control firelanes and get heat off of you or your teammates.  The only thing that needs to change about Decoy is the size of it's hitbox.  Honestly seeing that it's a hologram, friendly shots should pass straight through it.  This change alone would greatly improve the effectiveness of Decoy.  Otherwise, his hitbox needs to be shrunk down.  When it looks like i'm shooting the face of the grineer just over his shoulder, i'm actually hitting an invisible portion of it which ends up blocking my shot.  This could use a change, I say make it completely transparent for shots.

 

Invisibility:  Not a lot to complain about here.  For up to 30 seconds, you can almost completely avoid damage.  There is either a glitch or intended gameplay mechanic that sometimes when you go invisible, the nearby enemies will absolutely unload on you.  Dumping their entire magazines into you no matter how far you run (and even around corners it seems sometimes).  I've tested this theory, and it's for sure.  You go invis, and sometimes an enemy will go apesh*t on you.  I typically use it with decoy, so this isn't a huge deal as the decoy draws the fire.  

What I really would like to see changed with invisibility is the distortion of your view when you go invisible.  I don't mind the sound muffling, but you lose roughly 65% of your vision when you turn invisible and it can be a little disorienting.  Can we tone that down a bit?  I want to go invisible, not blind.  However, if invisibility never changed I'd still be happy with it as it's utility cannot be denied.

 

Switch Teleport:  Okay maybe I'm incorrect, but this seems to be one of the only abilities shared by a Warframe and an enemy unit.  I also find little use in this ability.  Yes you can swap out a teammate in a sticky situation, go invisible, and both of you benefit.  Of course without voice chat in random groups, this can be incredibly disorienting to your teammate as they'll have no warning of it.  It can also be used to grief/troll teammates, which isn't cool.  And yes I know you can switch teleport your decoy as well, using it to reach otherwise inaccessible areas.  Ultimately, this move needs a complete rework or replacement in my opinion.  I wouldn't mind this move disappearing altogether and being replaced by something much cooler (like a CC of some sort).  For 75 energy, hardly worth the effort in most cases.  Especially seeing as how your teammates rarely want to be switched out, and switching with an enemy can land you surrounded by foes.

 

Radial Disarm:  This move is neat, and has good utility.  But lets face it, it's useless in a third of the game.  Is there another Warframe who's ultimate ability is useless against an entire faction?  IMO this move needs a great amount of reworking.  Yes you can stop an entire room full of grineer/corpus from shooting, only to have them switch to melee and swarm you (this isn't always a good thing).  But that's about it.  They aren't slowed, they aren't damaged.  This move for 100 energy could use a bit more.  How about a snare?  Not only permanently disarming, but permanently slowing as well?  This would actually make it useful for Infested.  And how about a damage over time also?  Something to make this ability worth 100 energy.  As it is, I rarely if ever use it.  Now you can play very smart with it, especially if you're a shotgun user.  Pop radial disarm, and laugh as you casually stroll backwards and drop a roomful of enemies.  But as I stated above, this move could use a bit of love.

 

Anyway, not a rant or anything.  I'm not angry about the status of Loki, I love him and enjoy playing him.  But his group usefulness is underwhelming.  Most/all groups would rather have a Nova/Rhino/Frost/Vauban/Ember/Mag etc etc in your place as they have abilities that can save the entire group in a pinch.  The Loki doesn't have this.  He has the easiest time at reviving squadmates, that's about it. 

 

Just thought he could use a little love.

 

I don't agree with everything here, but I really appreciate your approach, it's articulate and communicative, very pleasant to read.

 

You mention Radial Disarm doing damage, but I can't agree with that, I don't want my Loki to do damage and in fact would like to see whatever component like that it has to go away.  A Loki isn't about dealing damage with abilities, it's about out thinking and tricking them, I killed a Grineer Heavy Gunner today by swapping places with him before he could roll his gun up to speed, he let it power it down because he was facing away from me, then I shot him in the back of the head with my Paris and ran around to collect all the drops.  All of his abilities work best when used in conjunction, my favorite being Invisibility, followed by dropping a decoy wherever I want to be, swapping with the decoy and then mowing down the entire enemy group from their flank.  There is a ton of versatility to the Loki, but you have to think it through.

 

That being said I do wish that the radial disarm had a bit more utility against the infested, I would like to see damage reduction, that fits in with the general idea and it would have good synergy with his kit overall.  But please don't ask them to add damage, anything along those lines of significance would be just another press four to win things and that's boring and does not fit well with his general theme or ability kit.

[Troublechutor]

OMFG... Another day, another opus to proposed Loki changes... Use the search function.

[Troublechutor]

But his group usefulness is underwhelming.  

Stop being bad at loki :)

 

With 4 Energy syphons running around with nuker-frames, you're just seeing everyone cycle their nukes and leaving you wondering WTF you're there for.  What you are seeing isn't a loki problem... its a "press 4 to win" problem.

[jucarojinmu]

For Loki to be a trikster and live up to his name, I would like decoy to be a time bomb and explode with a good amount of AOE which can be affected stretch and focus mod.

[druindo]

When you upgrade your Invisibility and possibly use Continuity (ability duration increase) Invisibility lasts around 30 seconds, it's nuts.  Well worth it in the future.

 

Okay, so it's one of those that has to be bumped up before it gets really good. Thanks for that info.

[Bakercompany86]

OMFG... Another day, another opus to proposed Loki changes... Use the search function.

 

 

Thank you for your valuable input.

 

EDIT:  What is the name of this forum?

 

I thought it said "Improving Warframe"  and "Warframe Feedback".

 

 

Guess I was mistaken =\

Edited August 5, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Bakercompany86]

Stop being bad at loki :)

 

With 4 Energy syphons running around with nuker-frames, you're just seeing everyone cycle their nukes and leaving you wondering WTF you're there for.  What you are seeing isn't a loki problem... its a "press 4 to win" problem.

I'm awesome at Loki.

 

Read the entire post, you'll see where the suggestions fit in.  Whether or not you like them, is a matter of opinion.  I personally think the evolution of this discussion into damage reflection and other things like that are perfectly in line with Loki's lore, and would greatly enhance his usefulness.

[Azamagon]

 Thanks for the positive response Baker :)

But the quoted part below, isn't that why you should cast Invisibility? ;)

 

Perhaps a massive melee buff with a damage resistance buff upon the teleport?  That way Loki switches in, and can start slicing people up (this also accounts for his squishiness and lack of utility).

[Bakercompany86]

 Thanks for the positive response Baker :)

But the quoted part below, isn't that why you should cast Invisibility? ;)

 

 

Partially.  Invisibility doesn't really do anything except stop you from taking damage.  That's great and all, but you still have to manually pound peoples face in.  Loki has nothing to really assist him, and the battlefield manipulation he's supposedly known for just isn't there in my opinion.

 

With a damage buff I'd actually use switch teleport, and you could raise it to 50 or 75 energy to compensate.  Then I'd switch, invis, and go to work =)

 

I see what you mean by the damage resistance/invis thing.  Kind of redundant.  So lets focus on the damage boost.  Could be melee only for all I care, that's kind of neat actually.

[Azamagon]

Partially.  Invisibility doesn't really do anything except stop you from taking damage.  That's great and all, but you still have to manually pound peoples face in.  Loki has nothing to really assist him, and the battlefield manipulation he's supposedly known for just isn't there in my opinion.

 

With a damage buff I'd actually use switch teleport, and you could raise it to 50 or 75 energy to compensate.  Then I'd switch, invis, and go to work =)

 

I see what you mean by the damage resistance/invis thing.  Kind of redundant.  So lets focus on the damage boost.  Could be melee only for all I care, that's kind of neat actually.

Well yeah, the damage resist (which i did suggest too btw) on Switch combined with Invisibility thing making you partially invulnerable is sort of redundant (still useful for potential enemy aoe-attacks, they can still hurt you while invisible), but the damage resistance is more of a thing if you switch with allies (as they get it too), so they don't feel like the switch was all too bad (if the Loki is an annoying troll for example).

 

What i really wanted to say though: Invisibility already gives you a melee damage boost, so if Switch ALSO gave you a damage boost, I think it would be a bit of an overkill and potentially overpowered.

 

The way i could see a highlevel battle:

1) Switch with an enemy to put yourself in range with the enemies + making them focus on the switched target for a short while. Remember, this switched enemy target will suffer more damage, so it might die very fast.

2) Radial Disarm for permanent disarm (not on bosses though) and temporary damagereturn (this effect also works on bosses)

3) Place a Decoy nearby for them to bash on and suffer MORE damagereturn

4) Go invisible (could have been applied earlier too for safety) which gives you a melee damage boost to slaughter any surviving enemies, or in the midst of them slaughtering themselves

[Nightshyft]

Invisibility at higher levels means that you loose your sentinel. The damage buff is insignificant as the enemies health and shields have out scaled the invisibility buff. The recent increase in difficulty has also compounded the fact.

 

Levels 1-30, Loki is a God....everything works as planned and has it's functionality proved. However, once you get in the 40's and above, things go downhill fast. I think the big thing is how squishy Loki is. He cannot survive without Decoy and Invisibility. At 50 and higher, those abilities fail...Decoy has a two shot maximum lifespan and Invisibility only allows you to run away as you can pump out melee damage fast enough.

 

Personally, I think that he should be able to Stealth Kill while invisible, alert or no alert. You cannot defend against what you cannot see...they cannot BLOCK the attack...it would go a long way to improving his functionality at higher levels. And, as it is now, Stealth Kills are not the one shot at higher levels as they are at lower levels. That alone helps keep the balance. Hell, the first video actually SHOWS Loki doing this to the two targets when he goes invisible. Give Invisibility the Stealth Kill during duration. In Fact...on one of the livestreams, it was mentioned that they were looking into a pseudo combo moves system(just animation changes if using the same attack over and over...primarily heavy and charge attacks). Apply something like this to Invisibility.

 

Switch Teleport: I LOVE the stun on switch component idea. In essence, Smoke Screen without concealment. That gives Loki a short time to activate Invisibility(fromo above) and become effective and survivable. As it is, I only use Switch Teleport with Decoy to get to a difficult location. Switching into a group? Nope...too squishy.

 

Decoy: Again..HOLOGRAM. My suggestion is NO HIT BOX. Let ALL fire travel through and let enemies damage each other if they get into crossfires! Let Loki Fire THROUGH it. Let Loki's Teammates fire THROUGH it. Remove the health component and go with simple timed existance and we now have a very useful decoy no matter what level you are on.

 

Radial Disarm: I will probably always hate this. It does not feel like the trickster to me(this is simply my interpetation of the word...others may vary). Loki's other three powers are very PERCEPTION based in that they remove him from combat and make you focus somewhere else. Radial Disarm does not do that. However, in keeping with fixing what is there....it has to do better at disarming the target. I do not consider having a stunstick meaning the target is disarmed. He still has a weapon. That means Loki actually failed to truly disarm his opponent. Get rid of the Stun Stick. . Give all the enemies a simple unarmed melee attack and increase the stunned component by at least 50%. In this, he will have truly manipulated the battlefield.