@de: Can We Focus More On Balance

[TheJiggliestPoo]

There is a huge amount of subpar weapons/skills/ect in this game where most of the balancing can be done (especially in the case of weapons) with stat tinkering. New content requires a lot of work to complete due to the innate complexity that comes with it. Things like "smart" A.I. is incredibally difficult to implement and requires a huge amount of time and work. Unless I heard wrong, update 9 was an improving patch not a new content patch. It would be great if most of your resources are put into balancing as much as you can and the next patch we can have new things while being able to enjoy a wider array of already implemented goodies. 

[Hayden11121]

I agree.

 

AI is "incredibally" difficult to code.

 

/sarcasm

 

Why not both?

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I agree.

 

AI is "incredibally" difficult to code.

 

/sarcasm

 

Why not both?

 

Do you do programming? Do you do game programming? Smart AIs are very difficult to implement because their behavior has to be very complex. If you do any sort of programming you would know that even seemingly easy things can completely F*** up everything when attempting to implement. There is no way a company can just do some quick side work to "fix" up an AI and magically make it very smart in a fast timeframe.

 

*Edit*

 

We can have an AI improvement patch after the balancing patch since you want it so much but at the moment the AI is not even close to the biggest things holding back the game. 

Edited August 4, 2013 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Destro6677]

I just saw a Grineer use a zip line and shoot at me while on the line, then take cover on a ledge. +1 for the Grineer!

 

On a serious note, I'm with the OP on balance changes.

 

Why would anyone use the rank 1 weapons like the Boar, Strun or dare I say, the Bo when there are much better weapons to be had? 

 

No one uses the Braton anymore just because it can't keep up at higher levels under the current system. It's not like there are more powerful versions of the Braton that can be brought to high level defense, just because of the armor stat.

 

Comparing the grind to Torchlight, a sword is a sword, a bow is a bow, and an axe is an axe.

 

There should be no such thing as 'axes are worthless because this sword is just better in every way' (pointing at the dual ethers pre-U9 buff to pressure point mod). 

Edited August 4, 2013 by Destro6677

[Hayden11121]

Do you do programming? Do you do game programming? Smart AIs are very difficult to implement because their behavior has to be very complex. If you do any sort of programming you would know that even seemingly easy things can completely F*** up everything when attempting to implement. There is no way a company can just do some quick side work to "fix" up an AI and magically make it very smart in a fast timeframe.

 

*Edit*

 

We can have an AI improvement patch after the balancing patch since you want it so much but at the moment the AI is not even close to the biggest things holding back the game. 

I don't think it's that hard to tell the AI to not use the player like cover...

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I don't think it's that hard to tell the AI to not use the player like cover...

 

So what you want are just small AI changes not an overhaul? Neat. Take that to another thread. This one is about balance vs new content. 

[direcyphre]

Something you may not quite understand about game development is that there are different people involved in the process of creation and updating. The guy who makes shiny new weapons or maps aren't doing bugfixes or scripting, for instance.

 

Here is the primary problem with your topic, however: You list absolutely no suggestions for balance or change. While it is nice to want it, we have a selection of feedback forums where you can voice your opinion on a particular weapon, warframe, or game mechanic with regard to balance or change. I'm also not sure where you understood that Update 9 was meant to be an improving patch and not a content patch. Thus far, every single 'Update' iteration has included new content, whether warframes, weapons, or levels.

 

With regard to A.I., people generally don't seem to understand how PvE AI works, in that it will always be predictable after encountering it a number of times in the same situations. I would make a whole new thread about this, but I'm not sure anyone would understand after the fact. Experience in other games like Ninja Gaiden and Monster Hunter are more clear indications about in-game AI; the way you beat the game is understanding how your AI opponents move and operate, not 'skillfully mastering the game' or some silly catchphrase. The AI seems stupid in this game because our enemies are intentionally cannon fodder, not opposing warframes with special abilities. Their tactics are similar to playing games like Gears of War or other cover-based shooters, and they aren't prone to withstanding the insane powers we put out.

[Legault]

A better AI is pointless as long as bullsh*t like Molecular Prime and Acrid exist.

[Lek5tacy]

I wonder if DE has a points system for weapons? Each weapon is assigned a certain number of points based on Mastery level and Rarity. Actualy, I really wish Mastery was of more use in determining which weapons to use.

 

I still would like the unpopular idea of adding weight to weapons as a means of balance, but I don't think DE would bother. Which I don't blame them for, the addition of weight would cause some pretty big backlash I assume.

[Silvershadow66]

It's not like there are more powerful versions of the Braton that can be brought to high level defense, just because of the armor stat.

 

 

That would be the Boltor.

 

If you like the playstyle of the Braton then you will like the Boltor and you get armour ignore against all put 2 mobs and do full damage to ancients.

[Destro6677]

That would be the Boltor.

 

If you like the playstyle of the Braton then you will like the Boltor and you get armour ignore against all put 2 mobs and do full damage to ancients.

That's the problem right there.

 

It's the Boltor, not the Braton. It fires bolts, not bullets, and you have to lead with it. The bolts fly off into infinity when you shoot at anything outside medium range. With a Braton, you're talking about a headshot machine at medium range and slightly beyond.

 

There is no good reason for making someone 'upgrade' to a different type of weapon just based on armor scaling.

 

An axe is not a sword.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Destro6677

[GottFaust]

I agree.

 

AI is "incredibally" difficult to code.

 

/sarcasm

 

Why not both?

Have you TRIED writing an "AI"?

Come back to me when you have and then say it was easy.

[Destro6677]

Something you may not quite understand about game development is that there are different people involved in the process of creation and updating. The guy who makes shiny new weapons or maps aren't doing bugfixes or scripting, for instance.

 

Here is the primary problem with your topic, however: You list absolutely no suggestions for balance or change. While it is nice to want it, we have a selection of feedback forums where you can voice your opinion on a particular weapon, warframe, or game mechanic with regard to balance or change. I'm also not sure where you understood that Update 9 was meant to be an improving patch and not a content patch. Thus far, every single 'Update' iteration has included new content, whether warframes, weapons, or levels.

I have a few suggestions.

 

1. Give the Gorgon an innate chance to puncture enemies, or at least an attack polarity. Right now, I feel like I'm tickling Grineer with it and since U9, I can't rip Infested to shreds with it anymore.

 

2. Create some sort of mechanic for the higher level guns like the Supra, Dera etc which gives them worse ammo efficiency the more often they're continuously fired in combat.

 

For example, the Ogris would overheat when fired too often. If the player fired it continuously without letting the heat bleed out, the bad ammo efficiency would kick in for the next 10 seconds on static cooldown, making players use 2-3 ammo per shot.

 

3. Bring back the Furax with some much-needed love. Give it a crit chance modifier/ armor destroying mechanic that stacks like some LoL mechanics.

 

When you hit an enemy, you begin a static cooldown debuff to the affected enemy, increasing the chance of critical hits with following strikes. By the time you've hit the same enemy 3 to 4 times, you could be doing 300% crit chance and maybe 150% crit damage. If you don't hit the enemy for two seconds or so, the cooldown ends and you have to charge it up again.

 

For the skill that it takes to actually hit anything with the Furax and manage mobs, the returns of kill count and satisfaction aren't worth it as it is now.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Destro6677

[Mabswer]

A better AI is pointless as long as bullsh*t like Molecular Prime and Acrid exist.

hahah, yea no, Its pointless because Rhino and stupid Godmodes!!!!!!!!11

[Triskelon]

The game seems pretty balanced to me.

Of course with each new massive update old gear will be out dated?  It's just how it works.  If gear didn't become out dated then people would just stick to one set of weapons, and there wouldn't be that urge to get something better.  Then people would become bored with the game.

[BadAimbot]

The game seems pretty balanced to me.

Of course with each new massive update old gear will be out dated?  It's just how it works.  If gear didn't become out dated then people would just stick to one set of weapons, and there wouldn't be that urge to get something better.  Then people would become bored with the game.

 

You are wrong. Every time they release a weapon there are tons of people clamoring over it, even if it isn't good. I very much doubt the Ogris would become unpopular if it were balanced with the Braton.

[Triskelon]

You are wrong. Every time they release a weapon there are tons of people clamoring over it, even if it isn't good. I very much doubt the Ogris would become unpopular if it were balanced with the Braton.

I don't know about you but each weapon that comes out has it's own advantages.  and of course everyone is going to want to try it out to see if those "advantages" fit to their play style.

[Irfir]

I can confirm and feel the same way.

 

A lot of weapons and warframes are out of "sync" due to the revamp of the average enemy level and difficulty.

They just lost their edge and even fully formated they do not feel "right".

 

This is caused by the wanted limitation of the mod and slot system in place.

I can not think of a good solution and i am just tired and sad about my now soulless weapons and warframes.

Well we player just adapt and move on but...

There is a big but now.

If this is not gonna get solved in time everyone will run with the same warframes with the same loadouts with the same weapons.

[Destro6677]

The game seems pretty balanced to me.

Of course with each new massive update old gear will be out dated?  It's just how it works.  If gear didn't become out dated then people would just stick to one set of weapons, and there wouldn't be that urge to get something better.  Then people would become bored with the game.

The problem is the game has become a grindfest based on what you actually own, not on your skill or your preferences. Want to do defense? Get a Frost. Infested defense? Get a Vauban and Ember. No other frames are in demand thanks to this grinding.

 

The problem is not that these frames have an easier time of doing those missions or setting records for reaching level 1 million on endless defense.

 

Want to set the record for level 1 million? You MUST use a rocket launcher or plasma machine cannon.

 

The problem is, old weapons are being outdated with every patch for no reason. Old frames have gone unbuffed and unbalanced. What happens when they stop releasing new content?

 

I guess we'll all get bored and stop playing then.

 

How many people do you know who can say they play WoW?

 

How many of the same play LoL or have tried it. 

 

Regardless of the cost to play WoW, WoW has a lot of this 'bigger weapons = more powerful = more happy players' and it didn't work out so well for them.

 

LoL on the other hand releases game-breaking characters every few months but they immediately tone them back after a week or so, just to get everyone to buy the damn champ and abuse them.

 

LoL also regularly nerfs and buffs characters to 'balance' the game. Cho Gath and Alistar have been around forever and they are still viable. Not to mention Warwick, whose lore has been retconned and hits like a train in S3. Their favorite champs remaining viable is what keeps LoL players in the game and not coming to Warframe.

 

Here's a well written thread on the dangers of constant updates with better gear, aka power creep, and more issues that we should keep an eye on.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/87889-difficulty-balance-of-power-vs-skill-powercreep-and-more/#entry968950

Edited August 5, 2013 by Destro6677

[Destro6677]

I can confirm and feel the same way.

 

A lot of weapons and warframes are out of "sync" due to the revamp of the average enemy level and difficulty.

They just lost their edge and even fully formated they do not feel "right".

 

This is caused by the wanted limitation of the mod and slot system in place.

I can not think of a good solution and i am just tired and sad about my now soulless weapons and warframes.

Well we player just adapt and move on but...

There is a big but now.

If this is not gonna get solved in time everyone will run with the same warframes with the same loadouts with the same weapons.

We will soon see only this combo being viable for level 1 million defense.

 

Frost, Vauban, Nyx and Banshee.

 

All carrying Supras and Ogris.

[Triskelon]

The problem is the game has become a grindfest based on what you actually own, not on your skill or your preferences. Want to do defense? Get a Frost. Infested defense? Get a Vauban and Ember. No other frames are in demand thanks to this grinding.

 

The problem is not that these frames have an easier time of doing those missions or setting records for reaching level 1 million on endless defense.

 

Want to set the record for level 1 million? You MUST use a rocket launcher or plasma machine cannon.

 

The problem is, old weapons are being outdated with every patch for no reason. Old frames have gone unbuffed and unbalanced. What happens when they stop releasing new content?

 

I guess we'll all get bored and stop playing then.

 

How many people do you know who can say they play WoW?

 

How many of the same play LoL or have tried it. 

 

Regardless of the cost to play WoW, WoW has a lot of this 'bigger weapons = more powerful = more happy players' and it didn't work out so well for them.

 

LoL on the other hand releases game-breaking characters every few months but they immediately tone them back after a week or so, just to get everyone to buy the damn champ and abuse them.

 

LoL also regularly nerfs and buffs characters to 'balance' the game. Cho Gath and Alistar have been around forever and they are still viable. Not to mention Warwick, whose lore has been retconned and hits like a train in S3. Their favorite champs remaining viable is what keeps LoL players in the game and not coming to Warframe.

 

Here's a well written thread on the dangers of constant updates with better gear, aka power creep, and more issues that we should keep an eye on.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/87889-difficulty-balance-of-power-vs-skill-powercreep-and-more/#entry968950

I was about to use WoW as an example in my post tbh

saying how many people do u see using BC gear for pandaria raids.

 

In WoW Tanks and Healers are in high demand, in Warframe Frames with amazing CC abilities are always in high demand.

and no matter what Weapons will always become outdated, but since Warframe doesnt really have "gear"  (Helm, chest, boots, ect..) some frames should get a buff instead of a select few.

 

And people will always eventually get bored with a game?  The only reason I keep playing warframe is because of their constant updates bringing something new.  

This is a PvE game and it's going to require new content more frequently than some other games to keep it's players interested.

 

And if u haven't noticed this game is nothing but grinding I don't really have a problem with it as much as grinding in WoW.  Grind xini for affinity, grind bosses for BPs, grind for materials, but some how DE has kept me entertained, and releasing that next weapon that I just feel like i have to have.  Sooooo it's a game just enjoy it?

[Destro6677]

Can we agree that if you like to use swords, the latest patch to WoW should not make you switch over to say, a mace instead?

 

Sure, old weapons can be outclassed by their values as new systems are unlocked. But why should someone have to switch over to a rocket launcher because their rifle can't do the job anymore?

 

And why are the heavy projectile weapons so god-tier right now? Their ammo efficiency is too good compared to the rifles.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Destro6677

[SirSlayer]

You know what's funny?

In other games the community would just tell you to "harden the F*** up" :D

 

Anyways, you can't make ogris/acrid/dera as bad as braton, wanna know why? cause it @(*()$ costs 2 arms 1 leg and your boner.

Tier system is there for a reason.

Edited August 5, 2013 by SirSlayer

[Destro6677]

You know what's funny?

In other games the community would just tell you to "harden the F*** up" :D

 

Anyways, you can't make ogris/acrid/dera as bad as braton, wanna know why? cause it @(*()$ costs 2 arms 1 leg and your boner.

Tier system is there for a reason.

Well, if we don't want to nerf the heavy weapons, why not have a better 'Braton' for end game while we're at it?

 

And for goodness sakes, give the lower tier players (mastery rank 2-4) some kind of lousy rocket launcher or plasma shooter to get their feet wet and develop an appetite for it while they work their way up to the clan tech at rank 7. 

 

Right now, it's the equivalent of 'you can't use this type of weapon because you're not good enough'. I don't think either Diablo or Torchlight have the system of stopping you from using a certain class of weapon until you're level 41.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Destro6677

[SirSlayer]

Well, if we don't want to nerf the heavy weapons, why not have a better 'Braton' for end game while we're at it?

We got that, it's called braton prime.

 

 

Other point, right now these weapons are dojo only.