Energy System Discussion

[Bakercompany86]

Energy Orbs?  Cooldowns?  Energy Costs?

 

What system do you think would work best and why?

 

In an earlier thread, it dawned on me that a system where energy is restored by attacking would seemingly work.

 

You consumer energy to use abilities, and you must shoot/melee to restore energy (perhaps bigger restoration from melee strikes).

 

There are other options out there....discuss =)

[Tsukinoki]

While a system that would get you energy from damaging enemies does have its merits it also has its downsides:
A) It punishes slower frames such as rhino.  They cant get out to the front lines to deal damage then they cant use abilities, such as rhino charge, to get out to the front lines.
B) Once you've fallen behind it'll be hard to catch up.  Basically if you fall behind in damage dealt you cant use your abilites while others can.  Good luck when they can use their abilities to kill enemies then rush on ahead and your stuck with no energy because there is nothing left to kill
C) It encourages a more 'selfish' gameplay.  If nova uses her ult and destroys a room no one gets energy from it, same with nearly all other ults.  That just makes people begin to resent those that do earn up the energy to use their ultimate abilities.  Also if your running with someone that rushes ahead and kills enemies before the rest of the party can get there, say a Loki with rush, it is actively hurting the rest of the group because they aren't getting any energy while he is.
D) Some skills would actually net you a *lot* more energy than they would cost and would make some missions far to easy.  Such as Batille, or Chaos.  Infested missions are already easy enough with a bastille, but if bastille started netting you more energy than it cost to throw down, then it becomes even easier to have infinite bastilles up.

While a system like this does definitely have its merits and benefits it has major issues, namely C, that it has to figure out how to deal with first.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[MetalGerbil]

its fine.

keeps you busy. in most cases you have to balance use versus effect. if you dont kill enough per use (to get enough orbs to drop), or save enough to kill with later, you run out and have to use guns.

which is fine as you can get them easily after a few mobs, containers, mods (energy syphon), or as is often the case they are just all over the darn place. having more than you can easily use up unless you are skill spamming, which is something this current system is suppose to replace. the old system was cooldown based and too spammy.

considering how the vast majority of your progression goes towards your guns, it makes sense that its your primary way of dealing with things. while skills can be used for effect and the occasional room wipe.

[Khranitel]

The system we have now is pretty meh, but to change it for, let's say, cooldown system, DE will have to revork every ability on every frame.

So I guess we're sticking with current one.

[Bakercompany86]

While a system that would get you energy from damaging enemies does have its merits it also has its downsides:

A) It punishes slower frames such as rhino.  They cant get out to the front lines to deal damage then they cant use abilities, such as rhino charge, to get out to the front lines.

B) Once you've fallen behind it'll be hard to catch up.  Basically if you fall behind in damage dealt you cant use your abilites while others can.  Good luck when they can use their abilities to kill enemies then rush on ahead and your stuck with no energy because there is nothing left to kill

C) It encourages a more 'selfish' gameplay.  If nova uses her ult and destroys a room no one gets energy from it, same with nearly all other ults.  That just makes people begin to resent those that do earn up the energy to use their ultimate abilities.  Also if your running with someone that rushes ahead and kills enemies before the rest of the party can get there, say a Loki with rush, it is actively hurting the rest of the group because they aren't getting any energy while he is.

D) Some skills would actually net you a *lot* more energy than they would cost and would make some missions far to easy.  Such as Batille, or Chaos.  Infested missions are already easy enough with a bastille, but if bastille started netting you more energy than it cost to throw down, then it becomes even easier to have infinite bastilles up.

While a system like this does definitely have its merits and benefits it has major issues, namely C, that it has to figure out how to deal with first.

 

 

Some valid points.  Although my system wouldn't have energy restored from abilities.  So if you walk in and spam your abilities, you simply will be out of energy.

 

It does encourage selfish gameplay slightly, but this exists already and I don't see it changing.  I'm even guilty of rushing ahead to try and get to the objective and out of the mission faster (i'm also a Loki).  Keep in mind Loki's don't have any room clearing abilities.

 

 

And you could couple it with a slower auto-energy regen.  So those behind would still have enough energy after a while.  Yes they could wait, but it would take a loooong time.  Also, when people get left behind typically they stay left behind.  So their abilities are irrelevant.

[Tsukinoki]

@Bakercompany86
Though the issue would still remain with what I pointed out with D.
A vauban throws down bastille against infested and shoots them all.  He gains back potentially a *lot* more than 75 energy needed to cast it meaning that he can cast it again and again endlessly without ever having to worry about energy at all in defense missions.  Even less so that he currently does because there is no chance of getting unlucky and not getting any orbs.
That would turn any infested defense into an utter cakewalk for even a solo vauban on the higher waves.

In a more well co-ordinated group it might be a very nice change, but in PUGs it would just lead to issues and cries of KSing and all that.  And while your rushing is a bit selfish, it doesnt actively hurt the rest of the group like it would in the system you are proposing.

I brought up Rhino charge because it is a very easy way fro a Rhino to catch up to the rest of his group if he is ever left behind.  I've used it that way as well and it does help to keep me up with a PUG.  Though a slower auto-regen system would help combat some of this.

Now, please understand, I'm not trying to just be a downer on your ideas or anything.  But the only way for an idea to grow and evolve is through people disagreeing and pointing out the weakpoints that need to be addressed, and that is all I am trying to do.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Davoodoo]

Energy Orbs?  Cooldowns?  Energy Costs?

 

What system do you think would work best and why?

 

In an earlier thread, it dawned on me that a system where energy is restored by attacking would seemingly work.

 

You consumer energy to use abilities, and you must shoot/melee to restore energy (perhaps bigger restoration from melee strikes).

 

There are other options out there....discuss =)

Best option imo?? Rage or energy similiar to tbc times on wow. Personally would prefer energy. 

Flow reduced to 3 ranks, 10 resource per rank, caps at 40. (100+40) / (100 - 100 x 30%)=2 ult casts.

option 1

Energy siphon - increases amount of resource gained by x2 and doubles resource capacity. not stackable.

But that idea would require efficiency to be removed or nerfed. 

 

so option 2

Energy siphon - 5% power efficiency. 100/(100 - 100 x 30% - 100 x 15% - 100 x 5%) =  2 ult casts, with 4 ppl having it 65% efficiency total meaning 4 ult casts on full energy.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Vermalech]

How about a certain cap per level or per 5 waves of defense. 

 

Breaking this down, lets say for a rescue mission, you get a total of 400 energy. Yeah you can spam 4 ults and clear some rooms, but if things get rough, you are a fish out of water. This could also implore more strategic cooperation between teammates. Using abilities in unison on a hard wave instead of blowing it all in the first couple waves could prove to make players think about how they are spending their resources. Would like some feedback on this idea. 

[Bakercompany86]

How about a certain cap per level or per 5 waves of defense. 

 

Breaking this down, lets say for a rescue mission, you get a total of 400 energy. Yeah you can spam 4 ults and clear some rooms, but if things get rough, you are a fish out of water. This could also implore more strategic cooperation between teammates. Using abilities in unison on a hard wave instead of blowing it all in the first couple waves could prove to make players think about how they are spending their resources. Would like some feedback on this idea. 

 

 

This brought me to my next theory which would be extremely challenging for players, Charges.

 

You have a limited number of charges per mission, period.  Not horrible when you think about it.  Cuts down on spam, and really makes players think about using their abilities, and eliminates all other problems.

 

For defense missions, you'd refresh your charges every 5 waves.

 

@Tsukinoki:  When a Vauban uses Bastille, is he the only one who can shoot the mobs that are lifted by it?

[Kyria]

I would suggest: 

1) An Energy Scavenger-aura that increases energy pick-up by 4% of base, maxed out gives an increase from 25/50 to 31/62.

2) An Orb-conversion mod. If a health/energy ball drops and your health/energy is full it will be picked up and converted at an efficiency of 40%, meaning a 25 point heal = 10 energy, and a 25/50 energy = 10/20 heal.

 

I would not mind it if kill-to-replenish was implemented as an additional group benefit (everyone gets sum) on certain mission-types though.*cough* Rescue! *cough*.

[Kyria]

This brought me to my next theory which would be extremely challenging for players, Charges.

 

You have a limited number of charges per mission, period.  Not horrible when you think about it.  Cuts down on spam, and really makes players think about using their abilities, and eliminates all other problems.

 

For defense missions, you'd refresh your charges every 5 waves.

 

@Tsukinoki:  When a Vauban uses Bastille, is he the only one who can shoot the mobs that are lifted by it?

 

For nightmare missions - certainly! :)

[Eirshy]

All this desire to nerf the ability to use abilities smh

 

 

Firstly ability use is what defines a frame. It's what makes a frame different from another, as you can run any gun on any frame already.

 

This is why all frames are caster frames, and benefit the most from a caster-oriented mod build. Because without abilities, there's basically no reason to not just be a Vanguard-helm Rhino 100% of the time, and absolutely no reason to play Banshee or Ember or any other 10-armor frames.

 

 

Secondly, the issue of Energy Siphon being the best aura is more from the issue of energy being too limiting in its current state. If you're trying to make Energy Siphon less of the King it is, you basically need to give everyone a passive energy gain to begin with.

Edited August 5, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Vermalech]

All this desire to nerf the ability to use abilities smh

 

 

Firstly ability use is what defines a frame. It's what makes a frame different from another, as you can run any gun on any frame already.

 

This is why all frames are caster frames, and benefit the most from a caster-oriented mod build. Because without abilities, there's basically no reason to not just be a Vanguard-helm Rhino 100% of the time, and absolutely no reason to play Banshee or Ember or any other 10-armor frames.

 

 

Secondly, the issue of Energy Siphon being the best aura is more from the issue of energy being too limiting in its current state. If you're trying to make Energy Siphon less of the King it is, you basically need to give everyone a passive energy gain to begin with.

It isnt so much about nerfing abilities, just about nerfing the spam. Yeah sure some 'frames need some work with their kit, but more so does the spamability as a whole. It doesnt feel very fluid or fun when just running around and collecting orbs then pushing a couple buttons then watching the enemies cruble. This is why limiting the resources a bit from what they are now seems important. The game from an endgame point of view is kinda easy.

 

*EDIT* grammar

Edited August 5, 2013 by Vermalech

[Bakercompany86]

It isnt so much about nerfing abilities, just about nerfing the spam. Yeah sure some 'frames need some work with their kit, but more so does the spamability as a whole. It doesnt feel very fluid or fun when just running around and collecting orbs then pushing a couple button then watching the enemies cruble. This is why limiting the resources a bit from what they are now seem important. The game from an endgame point of view is kinda easy.

 

For me it's not even about nerfing the spam (although that should be a community wish, it breaks the entire dynamic of this game).

It's about finding a STABLE energy method.  Chasing down orbs sucks, in my opinion.  So you blaze through a level, ninja-parkouring your way through.  But when you run out of energy....it's a scavenger hunt for orbs.  That feels lame to me.

 

 

EDIT:  Also the cooldown method isn't such a bad idea.  It's not about a massive cooldown people just sit outside rooms and wait for, just enough of one to stop people from chaining the moves during combat (specifically defense).  But it would be a cooldown + auto energy regen of some sort.

 

EDIT EDIT:   Yes I'm aware the cooldown method was what was originally in place.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Vermalech]

Those are interesting points, but that is kind of an odd thing to balance. If energy, for the lack of a better example, was more like energy from normal MMOs where it constantly regenerates at a flat rate (maybe even upgradable by mods) some warframes that don't spam their 4 would be at an advantage due to overall less energy consumption. Unless of course the rate at which one regenerates this energy is dependent on the warframe its self, kind of like how shields scale differently, it could be more easily balanced.

 

However, this could flux how some missions work. Lets take defense for example: more often then not, this is the game mode where you will be spamming the most, especially with the current orb system. If you got the same amount of energy there as you did from a rescue mission, then it would feel a lot more starved. 

 

Though my mind is drawing blank of ideas, I would like to keep this post going in hopes the devs have their eye on it. Maybe they can conjure something up, that we haven't, with this pool of thoughts.

[Eirshy]

It isnt so much about nerfing abilities, just about nerfing the spam. Yeah sure some 'frames need some work with their kit, but more so does the spamability as a whole. It doesnt feel very fluid or fun when just running around and collecting orbs then pushing a couple buttons then watching the enemies cruble. This is why limiting the resources a bit from what they are now seems important. The game from an endgame point of view is kinda easy.

 

*EDIT* grammar

 

I'm curious what frame it is that's doing this at all levels. Enemies pretty swiftly outscale it either with HP or Armor (or both).

 

In addition, I'm at endgame and I main Banshee. You limit how much I can use Sonar, I'll have your head on a plate >=@

 

 

The game's ease isn't due to ability spam, it's due to the pretty black-and-white scaling system.

 

- There's almost no gun diversity, as guns without Armor Bypassing base damage do borderline *no* damage to Ancients and Medium Grineer. The only sane armor values are on Corpus units and Heavy Grineer.

 

- Abilities need to either scale incredibly well (Nova's Molecular Primer, Banshee's Sonar), be loaded with CC (Banshee's Sound Quake, Vauban's Bastille), or be loaded with utility (Mag's Pull, Frost's Snow Globe) in order to be even worthwhile in the first place.

 

- Enemies either deal way too little damage to pose a threat, or so much damage with so much accuracy to where leaving cover for more than 1-2 seconds on a 10-armor frame will get you killed.

 

 

Nobody makes you use your abilities in the first place. Also nobody makes me leap off of walls while firing a sniper rifle at people.

 

For me it's not even about nerfing the spam (although that should be a community wish, it breaks the entire dynamic of this game).

It's about finding a STABLE energy method.  Chasing down orbs sucks, in my opinion.  So you blaze through a level, ninja-parkouring your way through.  But when you run out of energy....it's a scavenger hunt for orbs.  That feels lame to me.

 

Hence my constant comment of

"Ya'll @(&*@#$#s need Energy Siphon."

 

Those are interesting points, but that is kind of an odd thing to balance. If energy, for the lack of a better example, was more like energy from normal MMOs where it constantly regenerates at a flat rate (maybe even upgradable by mods) some warframes that don't spam their 4 would be at an advantage due to overall less energy consumption. Unless of course the rate at which one regenerates this energy is dependent on the warframe its self, kind of like how shields scale differently, it could be more easily balanced.

 

However, this could flux how some missions work. Lets take defense for example: more often then not, this is the game mode where you will be spamming the most, especially with the current orb system. If you got the same amount of energy there as you did from a rescue mission, then it would feel a lot more starved. 

 

Though my mind is drawing blank of ideas, I would like to keep this post going in hopes the devs have their eye on it. Maybe they can conjure something up, that we haven't, with this pool of thoughts.

 

It's not just spamming 4's. Banshee, for example, spams 2.

Edited August 5, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Numot]

I don't get why people using their abilities bothers others. The whole point of them is to use them freely and its big part of the fun of the frames.

It isnt so much about nerfing abilities, just about nerfing the spam. Yeah sure some 'frames need some work with their kit, but more so does the spamability as a whole. It doesnt feel very fluid or fun when just running around and collecting orbs then pushing a couple buttons then watching the enemies cruble. This is why limiting the resources a bit from what they are now seems important. The game from an endgame point of view is kinda easy.

*EDIT* grammar

As many times as I've seen this kind of comment posted, I can count on one hand the times the times I've seen it. Once, back when Volt had his old overload, on a corpus map. For the most part I see people use abilities intelligently for max effect, and mostly shooting things in the face. Edited August 5, 2013 by Numot

[Vermalech]

I don't get why people using their abilities bothers others. The whole point of them is to use them freely and its big part of the fun of the frames.

As many times as I've seen this kind of comment posted, I can count on one hand the times the times I've seen it. Once, back when Volt had his old overload, on a corpus map. For the most part I see people use abilities intelligently for max effect, and mostly shooting things in the face.

Well again, as mentioned above by another poster, it isn't so much the abilities them selves it is the process of attaining the availability of using them. Running around collecting orbs breaks the flow of the game of being this cool space ninja to pretty much full time ball collector. Not saying weapons don't matter, they definitely do, but it seems the community can strive for a near 100% up time on abilities that can break them from scary situations most of the time. 

 

In addition to that, an argument can be made that some over the top abilities, in either the damage or CC department, are a bit much to be spammable. Bastille comes to mind for the CC parts, making infest defense missions a breeze. Though likely a different topic, I think down the road it will tie in somewhere on a specific level when dealing with abilities, how much they cost and how to get that energy back.

[Tsukinoki]

@Bakercompany86
The reason I brought up Bastille is that it costs 75 energy.  Even with other people shooting what he has capture he is nearly gaurenteed to get back more than 75 energy with his guns.
Also, another issue I have thought of: people using high damaging weapons such as Hek, Sobek and Ogris are going to get back *tons* of energy per shot compared to someone using a viper or nearly any other weapon.  That is another thing to consider with your idea of regen energy as you fight.

As to another point you bring up:
Its not the spammability of abilities that makes the endgame easy, its how they and the enemies scale.
Even with zero abilities its quite easy to go through a T3 Void mission and kill everything that you come across.  And thats due to poor enemy AI.
On the other hand most abilities that deal damage become worthless by that point, outside of Miasma and other abilities that ignore armor completely.  And without spam most abilities would be doing squat at the higher levels.
Spammability seems bad when you're at the lower levels, but when you get to the endgame its nearly non existant because most abilities are pointless unless they have decent CC effects.

Further, I dont think that limiting the spammability would fix anything.
Currently its a viable build to kit out with mods to through out as many long lasting abilities as you can as fast as you can and be able to do it repeatedly.  Why limit player choice by making that impossible?  They have to give up general survivability to be able to do so, so I see it as a fair tradeoff.

@Numot
I have to agree with you.  Outside of a defense mission you dont see much ability spamming, unless the party is getting in over their heads where they honestly *need* to be able to spam abilities and get out.
I've been in plenty of situations where I've needed to spam Frosts 2 and 4 rapidly to keep myself and the party alive.  So CDs are something that should be avoided, primarily because there are enough times when you NEED to rapdily cast an ability to get the effect that you need out of it.  Further, that defeats the purpose of building to make your abilities spammable, which kills your survivability aside from the sheer burst damage that you can deliver.

@Vermalech
Very few groups that I have been in have suddenly stopped to go energy scavenging outside of defense missions.  In most normal missions you just continue on with the game and do what you can with your guns.  Defense missions is where you see people splitting up to scavenge for orbs, and I dont think that everything in this game should be balanced around endless defense.

 

[Bakercompany86]

@Bakercompany86

The reason I brought up Bastille is that it costs 75 energy.  Even with other people shooting what he has capture he is nearly gaurenteed to get back more than 75 energy with his guns.

Also, another issue I have thought of: people using high damaging weapons such as Hek, Sobek and Ogris are going to get back *tons* of energy per shot compared to someone using a viper or nearly any other weapon.  That is another thing to consider with your idea of regen energy as you fight.

 

 

 

Doesn't necessarily have to work like that at all.  Plus you can make it so enemies affected by an ability grant no energy.

 

You also don't have to allow it to take advantage of shotguns or rapid fire weapons.  Each weapon can have a set amount it can regenerate in a given amount of time.

 

There is a lot of flexibility to this theory.

 

 

 

 

You can also COMBINE these theories.  We can have the per-shot energy regen, WITH orb drops.  Or Constant energy regen with orb drops.  That way you're not completely reliant on orbs or the other method.  Implement it, and test it out.  Log the stats, and use those to balance accordingly.

 

Anything but this pure orb collection garbage...the same goes with health really.  Getting a nightmare match with no shields is a real pain in the &#!, especially considering the poor drop rate of health orbs.  But that's another topic.

[Tsukinoki]

@Bakercompany86
And this is why I like talking about these sorts of things and debating, it gets down to seeing what works and what doesn't.

I can see making it so that enemies affected by an ability dont grant any energy, which prevent CC abilities that can be abused as infinite energy generators.  But it is something that definately needed to be thought about before it gets implemented.
Also limiting the amount of damage you can gain per second is another good idea.  It prevents weapons with larger AOEs, such as the Torid or Ogris or most shotguns, from completely dominating single target weapons.  And you can easily make slower firing weapons gain more energy per shot than faster firing weapons, so that the Paris isn't left behind by the Gorgon.

I actually happen to like the idea of fighting regenerating energy, combined with orb drops.  That allows a steady regeneration, encourages fighting enemies and not orb hunting, and it has the orbs as nice little extra boosts here and there.
It also keeps ability usages possible throughout an entire bossfight instead of just as an opener like they are currently.

Overall it could be a very solid system if balanced properly.  But every idea, no matter how good, needs a few very hard whacks to see if it has any cracks that need patching.  All I'm doing is hunting for any weakpoints I can find.

[Bakercompany86]

@Bakercompany86

And this is why I like talking about these sorts of things and debating, it gets down to seeing what works and what doesn't.

I can see making it so that enemies affected by an ability dont grant any energy, which prevent CC abilities that can be abused as infinite energy generators.  But it is something that definately needed to be thought about before it gets implemented.

Also limiting the amount of damage you can gain per second is another good idea.  It prevents weapons with larger AOEs, such as the Torid or Ogris or most shotguns, from completely dominating single target weapons.  And you can easily make slower firing weapons gain more energy per shot than faster firing weapons, so that the Paris isn't left behind by the Gorgon.

I actually happen to like the idea of fighting regenerating energy, combined with orb drops.  That allows a steady regeneration, encourages fighting enemies and not orb hunting, and it has the orbs as nice little extra boosts here and there.

It also keeps ability usages possible throughout an entire bossfight instead of just as an opener like they are currently.

Overall it could be a very solid system if balanced properly.  But every idea, no matter how good, needs a few very hard whacks to see if it has any cracks that need patching.  All I'm doing is hunting for any weakpoints I can find.

 

 

I think we have some solid ideas here.

 

 

The energy upon attacking idea was someone gathered from Space Marine regarding the method of which you regenerate health.  Obviously way different from my idea, but that was my train of thought.

 

 

The energy on shot/hit could also be tweaked to where each unit can only be tapped for energy once (minus bosses and heavies).  And/Or you can only regain a certain amount of energy every few seconds or something like that.

 

Lots of possibilities.  Maybe we're on to something?

 

Would love to be a fly on the wall in the DE developers offices.  I wish I knew what ideas on these forums they liked and were considering or tinkering with.

[SkullWB]

About the energy system? This is the better idea of all ideas i have seen till now: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38594-energy-overhaul-introducing-a-new-system/

Edited August 5, 2013 by sgghostrider

[Bakercompany86]

That's a very complicated way of saying "Energy auto regen".

EDIT: Also interesting that the composer of that document has been banned....

Edited August 5, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Numot]

Give everyone passive siphon (.6), remove siphon aura so it never stacks, everyone actually takes other auras (and by that I mean rifle amp, radar, rejuvenation, and corrosive projection). Keep orbs. Ability usage is still sustainable with management, ability spam will make you run dry if you're not careful.