How does the PC player base feel about the Gara Mass Vitrify Nerf?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Demon Intellect:

Her mirrors were always trash, but I always actively play, so if cast the wall and run around killing stuff, but you can't really do that now since you have to babysit the wall as well.

Where do you even get the idea that you'd have to babysit the wall? 90% damage reduction is plenty on the health and shield pool of a defense target so all you gotta do is babysit the Splinter storm timer, dealing hard Cc to an area every time you do.The playstyle and builds are literally the same if you're playing her active. Didn't they even buff the range? Sole difference is that you can't frickin p4tafk anymore.

Just smash it to make killing more effective.

Edited January 16, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Sean.bdfc]

Let's cut to the honest point. Just because something is powerful does not make for bad design. It's a questionable design if the players are enabled not only to trivialize content, but to do so in a way that permits pressing a single button and literally afk for a minute or longer. Limbo rifts for mobile defenses is another example of enabling lazy gameplay. Pre-nerf MV was THE top tier area denier because, barring nullifier bubbles, the wall was impassible, impenetrable, invincible and covered a large area for a minute or longer with it's only flaws being cast time, energy cost, only one wall at a time and the open top.

I can at least agree that a nerf was called for to remove the enabler for lazy play because a game like warframe is supposed to feel fast-paced and constantly in motion. Where I question DE's execution is the nerf minimized lazy play so much that the wall is weak beyond mid-to-upper level missions even when building up Gara's armor and power strength. I forgot who posted this, but another user suggested putting a limit to how much damage the wall receives per second as a way to better scale MV for higher level content. Someone else suggested leaving glass shards on the ground as a form of caltrops to slow and bleed enemies crossing broken sections of the wall. I've heard other suggestions to scale wall health in relation to how much it expands (i.e. more health if covering a small area, less health over a large area to represent "thinning out" the wall).

tl;dr MV nerf was necessary to remove lazy play, but the execution was flawed. 

Edit 1: I chose not to discuss Ember since there is already a post for that. I acknowledge it is another example of lazy play, but that only applies to lower level content where the fire output is enough to kill in ten ticks or less. My post distinguishes from that based on how well certain area-denial warframes scale toward higher level content while maintaining the same degree of enabling laziness.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Sean.bdfc

[tnccs215]

Nice intention, sh!tty execution.

Specially since Spectrorage is useless.

[MrTitan123]

14 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Nice intention, sh!tty execution.

Specially since Spectrorage is useless.

Well...not entirely. Drawing aggro, sure. Taking and dealing damage? Nope.

[theUNdyingSilence]

I would honestly have been happy with just the damage resistance from the 2nd and just left the 4th alone. Whoever thought blender mode would be fun is just plain wrong. I think it's an example of a scaling ability done wrong. I would even vote for reverting the 4th ability even if the 2nd's damage output is heavily nerfed.

 

[ScribbleClash]

Nerf was justified. I've yet to find those enemies that are described to destroy sections in 2 or 3 shots during any non-endless mission. Even if her 4 is not as powerful, her other abilities still make her an OP frame.

Please unbreak Mass Vitrify though. It sometimes does not create all walls (more common as client). This does also result in Splinter Storm not refreshing.

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

26 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Nerf was justified. I've yet to find those enemies that are described to destroy sections in 2 or 3 shots during any non-endless mission. Even if her 4 is not as powerful, her other abilities still make her an OP frame.

Please unbreak Mass Vitrify though. It sometimes does not create all walls (more common as client). This does also result in Splinter Storm not refreshing.

I don't think the majority disagrees it needed a nerf. She still needs a rebalance in general. 

 

The issue is how unnecessarily excessive said nerf was. There's plenty of documentation by YouTubers and such demonstrating how weak the wall is once you get to sortie level content. All frames right now are hilariously overpowered in the starchart sans deeper into endless, so that really isn't the best place to gauge quality.

[ScribbleClash]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Vagnar said:

I don't think the majority disagrees it needed a nerf. She still needs a rebalance in general. 

 

The issue is how unnecessarily excessive said nerf was. There's plenty of documentation by YouTubers and such demonstrating how weak the wall is once you get to sortie level content. All frames right now are hilariously overpowered in the starchart sans deeper into endless, so that really isn't the best place to gauge quality.

I do not want it to be claimed that I'm talking just about "regular starchart", therefor I'll remedy my statement:
lvl 60-70 enemies do not produce the proclaimed issue. That is enough in my book.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ScribbleClash

[Hanayama_San]

The nerf was bullS#&$

it is ok for frost to spam his globe up to 1.000.000 but it is not ok for gara to have a duration based ability

[Fallen_Echo]

I say all it needed is a fixed duration unaffected by duration mods and redine energy costs for the new duration.

The new variant is useless for anything higher than lv40.

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

57 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

I do not want it to be claimed that I'm talking just about "regular starchart", therefor I'll remedy my statement:
lvl 60-70 enemies do not produce the proclaimed issue. That is enough in my book.

Well, you're making an unverified claim against plenty of recorded evidence of how quickly it goes down even when modded for it in high level content. I'll stick to what I've actually seen.

[Pizzarugi]

I know a nerf was inbound, you can't trivialize excavation with indestructible class cage forever and not expect it to happen. The nerf itself, however, was a bit too excessive. In sorties and high level content, it's worthless no matter how much power strength you stack on yourself. Seeing as enemies also approach on paths, they only need a single segment exposed to do full damage to anyone hiding behind it.

Mass Vitrify really needs the snowglobe treatment and get a damage absorb stage that will add extra health to all segments. The segments should also be more fragmented instead of destroying entire chunks. Would be great as well if the ring actively moves segments where attacks are the most active.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I agree, they went too far this time.

[Neightrix]

Way too much nerf.

Make each Vitrify section work like Amesha's 1 (essentially a bunch of gates with a timer between each one). Then allow the previous cast to linger until the next wall is completely in place so there's no down time on the bullet protection. Do the same thing for her 3, giving the mirrors consistent durability at any level - done. Now you have infinite scaling defensively, and offensively with glass absorbing continuous fire at any given level rather than a raw value that falls off.

Trinity only has 75% DR. 90% DR on Gara is fine, especially when it can be handed out like candy, and unlike Mesa it protects from everything not just bullets.

[Ashendal]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:54 AM, ScribbleClash said:

I do not want it to be claimed that I'm talking just about "regular starchart", therefor I'll remedy my statement:
lvl 60-70 enemies do not produce the proclaimed issue. That is enough in my book.

Modded properly to maximize the health of the wall it went down ridiculously quickly to Infested on Hieracon, i.e. it didn't even last half of an excavator. The Excavator can last with minimal babysitting by just slapping her 2 on it instead which makes her 4 pointless. It goes down even faster against enemies that do quicker attacks like Corpus. Not sure what level 60-70 enemies you're facing that are using marshmallow guns.

[KokoroWish]

Honestly I'm fine with it. I like Gara, but have to admit that ability was broken as all hell. As it is now, maybe could do with a bit of an HP boost, but otherwise I'm good.

[EchoesOfRain]

I understand that the wall itself was a bit much, but I'm at a point now where I only use Mass Vitrify for the CC. If Splinter Storm and Spectrorage could repair the wall it may be a bit better...

[Sasuda]

Kind of needed, far over done though. And not only overdone, done in an approach that made her more like Frost instead of less like Frost. Personally I think one of the other elements of the wall should have been nerfed, whether enemies being able to pass through after a condition (like being slowed or having to use a pushing through the wall animation for x seconds), not being able to damage enemies through the wall (or rather reduced ally damage, or no status through wall at least),  Or enemies being able to pass damage through the wall after meeting a condition (this actually kind of is the current solution, but I'm thinking a condition that isn't based on applying damage to the wall again like a animation or something to delay the enemies).
Keeping the current model though, means upping base health by a ton and adding mechanics like rotating wall and adding layers as I have suggested in these posts: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/896886-another-garas-mv-rant/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-9321306 and https://forums.warframe.com/topic/891218-gara-mass-vitrify-feedback/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-9284495 .

Here's what I said specifically

Spoiler

A big boost in it's multipliers but even then the ability has to have some functions changed. The most helpful potential changes for keeping this health based iteration while having a unique mechanics from Frost that I can think of:
1) Rotation, the outer barrier of Mass Vitrify rotates clockwise to prevent enemies from easily focusing damage on a single section of glass.
2a) Smaller sections of glass, splitting vertically probably won't do much since enemies shoot targets very consistently and precisely and because the rotation isn't helping reduce section damage without adding a second section rotation vertically. So thinner horizontal sections is a simpler solution.
2b) Alternatively/or in addition to smaller sections an (or multiple) inner layer(s) that rotate counter clockwise. This would be the most interesting way to change the ability since the wall would have a enemy filtering effect where enemies would enter at different paces depending on size and movement patterns.

This would be if they plan to keep the ability as a health based wall. The other notable issue is the scaling off of amour & Power Strength. Doesn't seem to be nice stats for Gara to try to balance around. But given the above changes it could work I think.

 

 

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I saw the nerf coming but I think this was too much.

Her 4 is pretty much useless now, particularly at higher levels and even at the plains where she was supposedly designed for.

She's still usable but her ulti isn't the best anymore. I wonder how much sense that makes..lol

It's the usual DE overnerf/nerf to the ground.

They will buff her back up again someday or rework her eventually.

Just need to wait some time, probably 6 months to a year.