Quartakk Changes, Why?

[Cytobel]

Folks, most of the genuine woes I see here revolve around stealth kills.  Perhaps it's not the weapon's fault that the stealth system INSTANTLY alerts enemies, rather than builds awareness over a second or so?  I'd argue that the problems with stealth affect more weapons than just the Quartakk, and that the stealth system itself needs work.

Also, I'd say the Quartakk's bullets should do about 31-32 damage each instead of 27.  That's slightly over 60% of 51, and it'd give us a slight adjustment to compensate for damage reduction from armor.

Between those 2 points we address all the concerns I've seen raised, at least the ones that aren't shotgun problems which I seperate from the Quartakk in my mental filing process.

EDIT:  Oh, and I'm all about that bump to damage in return for ammo expendature.  You're pumping out more rounds, and you should get more effect due to this instead of broadly similar DPS numbers.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Cytobel

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

That makes no sense. Why would you ever use an "only bodyshots" rule on a crit weapon? A huge part of crit weapons' advantage is the ability to increase headshot multipliers. And it wasn't a nerf. "Individual shots got weaker, therefore the weapon is nerfed" is not sound logic.

Because unlike in the simalurcum i cannot guarantee that i will always make headshots in the actual gameplay areas.

Total damage was cut in half, this cuts the power of slash procs too into half and having high status chance in itself is not good for anything expect fuelling a CO build.

But lets put it into a different perspective for you. You buy a car what is supposedly able to haul 1 ton of cargo and can go with 50Km/h. Sadly the first is not true as the total weight haul must be distributed between the tires so its actually 250Kg. You take it to a mechanic to fix it. The mechanics gives the car back with these changes:

-The steering wheel now reacts better.

-You reach maximum speed faster.

-You can now haul 1 ton of cargo.

-Your max speed is now 25Km/h.

Tell me did the car in this sceniario got better or not?

[Airwolfen]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because unlike in the simalurcum i cannot guarantee that i will always make headshots in the actual gameplay areas.

Total damage was cut in half, this cuts the power of slash procs too into half and having high status chance in itself is not good for anything expect fuelling a CO build.

But lets put it into a different perspective for you. You buy a car what is supposedly able to haul 1 ton of cargo and can go with 50Km/h. Sadly the first is not true as the total weight haul must be distributed between the tires so its actually 250Kg. You take it to a mechanic to fix it. The mechanics gives the car back with these changes:

-The steering wheel now reacts better.

-You reach maximum speed faster.

-You can now haul 1 ton of cargo.

-Your max speed is now 25Km/h.

Tell me did the car in this sceniario got better or not?

Not really the correct analogy. The second car in a comparable situation would go 2x the speed with half the load. Meaning the same results in the same time if there is 1 of the first and 2 of the second.

However this is is not about separate cars its about 1 gun that actually has the ability to shoot multiple times.  Single shot its obviously dropped. However with the open build slot from fire rate mods I'd say that statistically it got a 1up over the older stats. Basically anything thats not a oneshot would have a better TtK with version 2. Guess it all depends on someones attachment to lower level oneshots.

But I guess the difference here will only become apparent when damage 2.5 ends up gimping slash. So my final judgement on this change will have to wait till that system eventually hits.

(I mean if those changes went live as it was announced then this change would have saved the quartakk from failing entirely)

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

4 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Not really the correct analogy. The second car in a comparable situation would go 2x the speed with half the load. Meaning the same results in the same time if there is 1 of the first and 2 of the second.

However this is is not about separate cars its about 1 gun that actually has the ability to shoot multiple times.  Single shot its obviously dropped. However with the open build slot from fire rate mods I'd say that statistically it got a 1up over the older stats. Basically anything thats not a oneshot would have a better TtK with version 2. Guess it all depends on someones attachment to lower level oneshots.

But I guess the difference here will only become apparent when damage 2.5 ends up gimping slash. So my final judgement on this change will have to wait till that system eventually hits.

(I mean if those changes went live as it was announced then this change would have saved the quartakk from failing entirely)

Plus now that the car goes twice the speed it also uses the fuel faster and has to refuel more often (reloads more often with less damage dealt which puts you on the spot more often), some times it takes a while to reach twice the speed (this is when people can't match the new fire rate and click too late, which is nearly always), and if the voyage is too long you might run out of money to refuel (if the mission isn't short the gun will run out of ammo a lot faster now, before it wasn't as easy due to dealing twice the damage but possible on endless solo, but now even on shorter missions like MD it can happen if you are very active with your gun).

Edited January 23, 2018 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[Kuestenjung]

Am 17.1.2018 um 21:10 schrieb DeMonkey:

 

How? OP says that the old damage wasn't divided per pellet. I say and show otherwise.

OP was allways talking about the 51 damage that was mentioned in the patch notes because everyone was reffering to it and they wasn´t divided as your screenshots "proves". 

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Not really the correct analogy. The second car in a comparable situation would go 2x the speed with half the load. Meaning the same results in the same time if there is 1 of the first and 2 of the second.

However this is is not about separate cars its about 1 gun that actually has the ability to shoot multiple times.  Single shot its obviously dropped. However with the open build slot from fire rate mods I'd say that statistically it got a 1up over the older stats. Basically anything thats not a oneshot would have a better TtK with version 2. Guess it all depends on someones attachment to lower level oneshots.

But I guess the difference here will only become apparent when damage 2.5 ends up gimping slash. So my final judgement on this change will have to wait till that system eventually hits.

(I mean if those changes went live as it was announced then this change would have saved the quartakk from failing entirely)

I never used any firerate mod on it and at this point im pretty sure damage 2.5 never comes with the current variant. Not a single streamer claimed the idea was good and they would literally pump napalm into a fire if they attempt to push it in.

[DeMonkey]

 

On 17/01/2018 at 7:56 PM, KotoKuraken said:

The old damage was actually not divided between the 4 pellets. The 4 pellets each drained one ammo, which was the 4 "bullets" you drained per shot

That's what I argued against, displayed damage was divided by the pellets.

Edited January 24, 2018 by DeMonkey
Whilst removing my slightly brash reply the moderator also removed the person I was quoting and thus responding to leaving an obvious gap and a stupid post. Think I'll just leave it as it is though, don't want to get in trouble.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

On 18/01/2018 at 8:57 AM, Momaw said:

Just so people are aware, old Quartakk was 27% status chance on 4 projectiles, which means its real status chance (per each projectile) was about 7.57%.  It went from 7.57% per projectile to 27%,  i.e., Quartakk's status performance just got multiplied by 3.5 times.

The Quartakk was already near the top of the pile of semi-automatic weapons. Great accuracy, high damage with strong crit performance for headshotting, magazine capacity for days. It had personality, it had flavor, it was a high damage sniper-shotgun with mediocre status and great ammo economy. ...And then it got buffed to have free punch through.  And now buffed again to have vastly superior status performance while setting fire to the ammo economy. Just another weapon with both good crit and good status, like everything else seems to be slowly converging toward.  "Can't strip armor"?  It didn't need to, it could already easily kill level 100 enemies with its brutal headshots and slash procs. Can't we have any weapons that are only "decent" against heavily armored enemies, in a game where we have like twenty different ways of removing or ignoring armor?

Who asked for this?  Why is a weapon that is less than a month old, and already strong, and that already got a free buff very recently, getting even more?  I could name a dozen guns off the top of my head that should have been tweaked first, like the Latron family that the Quartakk already made completely and utterly obsolete before it got buffed.  Or what about the Burston Prime, which is a lotus-praise-it prime weapon that only has half the status and none of the crit of the Quartakk.

This was not a good or necessary change. It's rampant power creep and I am getting sick of players and content creators who demand balance changes via the simulacrum.  There is more to Warframe than your TTK against level 150 heavy gunners, and unnecessary optimizations that appeal to simulacrum tinkerers are destroying any sense of weapon uniqueness or challenge for the REST of the game.

Only now I noticed this, gotta say, it's refreshing to see a name often heard not going with the mentality that "Quartakk bad because fire rate must buff everything and I need the views from the hate".

 

Despite really liking the weapon before and wanting to get the status change to be per bullet rather per click, due to how I'm paying for that ammo so I should get a benefit from it (damage was high but the DPS was in line with Argonak and Latrons, it wasn't really that much superior, the ammo economy was deceiving, as the Quartakk even before had a worse economy than the other guns, it was just hard to notice due to the low fire rate and powerful shots, still when it came to long term other guns would have better economy as 1 ammo drop is worth 20 bullets, that's 20 clicks for others, 5 for the Quartakk), HOWEVER! When I mentioned fixing the status chance I also said that nerfing it a little wouldn't be bad as the effective status chance would be quite high, too high perhaps and a nerf would be justified and in the end it could just bring the status chance to be closer to what it was before because the gun would shine on damage per shot.

Before you could have a great status machine as well, but modding for it would take away one of the good things that the weapon had, higher damage per shot that allowed it to 1 shot things until later than other guns (but once things survive the shot then the gun is very comparable with other options.

Biggest problem with the gun is that it wasn't for everyone, most people prefer fire rate (even when it doesn't benefit them as much as they think, but if the builder tells them so...), Quartakk was for those that doesn't need that but rather want something that rewards each individual shot. My aim is crap to be honest, but boy I loved the gun and how it felt to go on sortie, click and BANG, enemies would jump to the side, dead (except Grineer heavies, mostly bombards, those usually survived).

Weapon not stripping armor wasn't an issue (holster speed kinda sucks but if that was improved besides using a slot and making us weaker then we easily could switch to a proper fast firing status weapon), if anything it even fit it lorewise as Grineer weapons usually are anti-corpus, impact and slash based, meant to look rough (and sometimes also look a bit dumb).

 

I do think that the stat changes to make this weapon fit the "meta" (more like the masses rather than those that used it) only made it generic and that time would've been better used to buff other weapons, like the Latrons like you mentioned (which kinda of have an identity crisis in late game), or even the Grinlok which sadly didn't catch the buff train... how long has it been? 1? 2 years? I forget, it was already too long ago and I wish they didn't push things to the side to make "big bundles of changes" but rather small ones that allow to monitor them properly (though most of the time feedback isn't so great and it's just "not meta, garbage because this or that stat isn't like X or Y").

 

Though honestly, the lack of standard is what brings discrepancies and makes them bigger and bigger. Because there's no proper place for each gun, some are either too weak while others are too strong so people have a reason to get them once they obtain the "top" version of other guns, and new regular weapons being as strong or stronger than the "top" versions (prime/wraith/vandal) really screws things some times.

Edited January 24, 2018 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[DreamsmithJane]

19 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

having high status chance in itself is not good for anything expect fuelling a CO build.

Um, what? It's the source of a large portion of the DPS increase I talked about, based on extra slash procs alone.

19 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But lets put it into a different perspective for you. You buy a car what is supposedly able to haul 1 ton of cargo and can go with 50Km/h. Sadly the first is not true as the total weight haul must be distributed between the tires so its actually 250Kg. You take it to a mechanic to fix it. The mechanics gives the car back with these changes:

-The steering wheel now reacts better.

-You reach maximum speed faster.

-You can now haul 1 ton of cargo.

-Your max speed is now 25Km/h.

Tell me did the car in this sceniario got better or not?

Yeah, that's not an accurate analogy at all. In the first place, 250kg*4 is still 1 ton. If that's a reference to status, that's not even how it works. If, on the other hand, cargo capacity is damage, then you could say, perhaps, that the second vehicle can carry just over half the amount of cargo, has just over twice the top speed (fire rate), has proper climate control that the first one lacked (there's your status), and is significantly more efficient (gets more out of each point of base damage). It would require two trips to carry slightly more cargo than the first one in a single trip, so it would use more energy overall, but do it in less time. However, both vehicles are electric, and powered by solar stations, so you aren't paying for fuel, and your only concern is whether your battery will be drained faster than you can recharge during the trip (reload, never a problem for Quartakk anyway) or the power stations' own stores will be depleted faster than they can be replenished over several trips (pick up ammo after kills). If so, you'll have to pay to swap the battery (drop ammo restores).

And in that case, yes, you'd prefer the first vehicle if you absolutely needed to carry 1 ton of cargo in a single trip (or the first version of Quartakk, if you absolutely needed to kill an enemy in a single shot), but otherwise, it's difficult to argue that the second version isn't superior in many ways. In the Quartakk's case, this is especially true, due to the fact that Quartakk's best damage builds rely on damage over time anyway, and the new version has better DPS.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Um, what? It's the source of a large portion of the DPS increase I talked about, based on extra slash procs alone.

Yeah, that's not an accurate analogy at all. In the first place, 250kg*4 is still 1 ton. If that's a reference to status, that's not even how it works. If, on the other hand, cargo capacity is damage, then you could say, perhaps, that the second vehicle can carry just over half the amount of cargo, has just over twice the top speed (fire rate), has proper climate control that the first one lacked (there's your status), and is significantly more efficient (gets more out of each point of base damage). It would require two trips to carry slightly more cargo than the first one in a single trip, so it would use more energy overall, but do it in less time. However, both vehicles are electric, and powered by solar stations, so you aren't paying for fuel, and your only concern is whether your battery will be drained faster than you can recharge during the trip (reload, never a problem for Quartakk anyway) or the power stations' own stores will be depleted faster than they can be replenished over several trips (pick up ammo after kills). If so, you'll have to pay to swap the battery (drop ammo restores).

And in that case, yes, you'd prefer the first vehicle if you absolutely needed to carry 1 ton of cargo in a single trip (or the first version of Quartakk, if you absolutely needed to kill an enemy in a single shot), but otherwise, it's difficult to argue that the second version isn't superior in many ways. In the Quartakk's case, this is especially true, due to the fact that Quartakk's best damage builds rely on damage over time anyway, and the new version has better DPS.

I would prefer the first version because enemies dying faster is always better. I used this analogy to point out how the changes worked, you now can haul that 1 ton of cargo aka reach the choosen status level but the speed you go is halved (damage) while you are wasting the same amount of fuel to go slower.

How much dps we got exactly from this patch compared to the previous?

Firerate has gone up but damage got severe hit so damage over time effect too got much weaker. From what i could find while i wrote this the old variant had less dps than the latron wraith. I cant check it on mobile but how does the new one compares?

[Airwolfen]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I would prefer the first version because enemies dying faster is always better. I used this analogy to point out how the changes worked, you now can haul that 1 ton of cargo aka reach the choosen status level but the speed you go is halved (damage) while you are wasting the same amount of fuel to go slower.

How much dps we got exactly from this patch compared to the previous?

Firerate has gone up but damage got severe hit so damage over time effect too got much weaker. From what i could find while i wrote this the old variant had less dps than the latron wraith. I cant check it on mobile but how does the new one compares?

half of the damage and double the fire rate. That means Equal DPS.

Though in reality you will also have the + accuracy and improved status chance making the result better in the end.

And yes. that also means higher ammo drain. But there are ways within the game to work around that.

[DreamsmithJane]

20 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I would prefer the first version because enemies dying faster is always better.

Then you would prefer the second version, because it kills faster.

20 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

half of the damage and double the fire rate. That means Equal DPS.

Except it's more than half the damage and more than double the fire rate. Alone, those would improve DPS by ~6%, which is meh, but the status increase also improves DPS. The accuracy boost also means more headshots at longer range (the shot grouping is noticeably tighter), which is another improvement to damage. The numbers I came up with for my builds ended up between 17% and 25% better, depending on the use case.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Then you would prefer the second version, because it kills faster.

Im currently dumped a forma in it and i gotta say the first variants damage is still better. Needing to dump 8-12 ammo with 150% multishot into a lv40 grineer to kill it is too slow.

I say the best would be reverting the damage nerf so this weapon can actually become useable.

[SnuggleBuckets]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im currently dumped a forma in it and i gotta say the first variants damage is still better. Needing to dump 8-12 ammo with 150% multishot into a lv40 grineer to kill it is too slow.

I say the best would be reverting the damage nerf so this weapon can actually become useable.

Completely disagree. I'm a lot happier with the change, my hybrid crit and corrosive+heat build with multishot feels much better, status procs have a good chance of either staggering or setting enemies on fire, while bleeding and stripping armor at the same time, firerate and accuracy make it much more reliable and steady and you can a lot faster react to other enemies in hordes, moving from target to target. 8-12 ammo is still 2-3 shots (is that even accounting for headshots?) and that with the firerate buff is hardly too slow.

[DreamsmithJane]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im currently dumped a forma in it and i gotta say the first variants damage is still better. Needing to dump 8-12 ammo with 150% multishot into a lv40 grineer to kill it is too slow.

I say the best would be reverting the damage nerf so this weapon can actually become useable.

I have a forma in mine, too, and that's just plain incorrect. It literally deals damage faster now than it did before. If you're going to talk about how "slow" it is, you need to be counting time spent, not ammo spent. Seriously, how are you not getting that the fire rate was more than doubled? And I'm not having any trouble one-shotting level 40 enemies, anyway (to be expected; if Argonak can do it, Quartakk can, too, even the new version). I don't know why you've somehow got it into your head that a weapon with better DPS and ammo economy than Soma Prime isn't usable. Are you actually trolling here?

[Kjahla81]

10 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im currently dumped a forma in it and i gotta say the first variants damage is still better. Needing to dump 8-12 ammo with 150% multishot into a lv40 grineer to kill it is too slow.

I say the best would be reverting the damage nerf so this weapon can actually become useable.

Ok no...I just one shot a lvl40 heavy gunner. So what you said makes no sense. What is your build?

Edit: Further testing against lvl100 heavy gunner. 

Unless you're doing bodyshots then yes it will take more ammo. I have 2 forma on mine. Build:

Serration, split chamber, point strike, vital sense, malignant force, high voltage, thermite rounds, and vigilante armaments. 

End result 3-4 headshots to kill.

Sorry but something isn't adding up to what your post is saying.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Kjahla81
More

[Fallen_Echo]

8 minutes ago, Kjahla81 said:

Ok no...I just one shot a lvl40 heavy gunner. So what you said makes no sense. What is your build?

Currently i use this build, thought i need another forma it seems.

https://goo.gl/56tdGw

They havent updated the page yet so the damage numbers are bad here.

Sometimes it works, when all shots crit on a headshot it can oneshot a lv40 heavy gunner but on everything else it can not. I think i said it in one of the previous comments but if not, if anybody can provide a better build im open for suggestions.

 

[(PSN)Hiei-YYH]

is this weapon nerfed again or just didn't make it to the console yet? 

On this video the guy just take down a lv100 heavy gunner with 6 shots, on my side takes 10 or more to do the same, also the fire rate is like 1.58 while in the video clearly shows 12.67 (more than doubled based on some comments here)

[Thrymm]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:28 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Currently i use this build, thought i need another forma it seems.

https://goo.gl/56tdGw

They havent updated the page yet so the damage numbers are bad here.

Sometimes it works, when all shots crit on a headshot it can oneshot a lv40 heavy gunner but on everything else it can not. I think i said it in one of the previous comments but if not, if anybody can provide a better build im open for suggestions.

 

Try replacing Hunter Munitions with Infected Clip and Vigilante Fervor with Vital Sense.  This weapon lands four hits simultaneously, so while it isn't good for stealth because of that it's still a "burst" weapon---you want one shot kills, not waiting around for slash procs to finish the job.  When you're all but guaranteed to land one crit, and probably two, as well as headshots you want your crit multiplier to reflect that.  Damage per hit will go way up, and so will your sustained damage.

Enough forma to give hunter munitions in the last spot will let you give it that extra kick from the slash procs the crits can make.  You'll go from needing lucky crits to kill level 40 heavy gunners to a weapon capable of some sortie duty.

[Fallen_Echo]

51 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Try replacing Hunter Munitions with Infected Clip and Vigilante Fervor with Vital Sense.  This weapon lands four hits simultaneously, so while it isn't good for stealth because of that it's still a "burst" weapon---you want one shot kills, not waiting around for slash procs to finish the job.  When you're all but guaranteed to land one crit, and probably two, as well as headshots you want your crit multiplier to reflect that.  Damage per hit will go way up, and so will your sustained damage.

Enough forma to give hunter munitions in the last spot will let you give it that extra kick from the slash procs the crits can make.  You'll go from needing lucky crits to kill level 40 heavy gunners to a weapon capable of some sortie duty.

gonna try it.

[SprinKah]

yeah um, I don't know man, the change makes it so much better. 

[Ammisro]

I haven't used it before the changes, but now my Quartakk is now my favourtie sortie viable status monster gun, especially with Riven.