(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Okay, okay! Welcome Tenno and other random dudes out there! I am so sorry, this is kinda' a sneak peek thread since I was actually working on something special to celebrate my 1,000 Forum posts. I'll get back to that by next week. Anyways, let's get to what you came for... Zephyr, Zephyr, Zephyr. According to a certain Tenno, there's been about 620 Zephyr fix threads and counting. Not a great look for a Warframe. She's not the greatest in the world, and her problem is that she's more of a defense Frame that has nothing much to offer her team with low damage that has non-existent scaling... and a low amount of interactivity, as @Operative_Shifthas said. But you can check out his video on Zephyr if you wanna' hear more about it. I'm just gonna' cut to the chase, let's go over a Zephyr revisit, one that works, one that makes her cool, one that keeps her current (molecular) fan-base happy, and one that is just.... amazing. I've made a Zephyr revisit, or well... two Zephyr revisit threads before, both received kinda' well (though now I'm not too keen on the first), so you're also welcome to check out those, however, I strongly encourage you to just stay here for now, read along, and leave some of your own thoughts down below so we can get a nice discussion going on. If you're not into what I personally have to say, I also recommend you check out Zephyr Extraordinaire - @Thaylien and his posts on Zephyr. Spoiler Thaylien's Post - And my posts! (first one is kinda' outdated and non-thematic) - And the second, better one! - Without further ado, let's get into the revisit! _____________________________________________ The Zephyr Super-Awesome-Finishing Blow Revisit! Buckle up Tenno, no flight or ability changes in this thread! 1ST - Tail Wind - Tail Wind has a good jumping height, but not so good on the air-dashing side. It seems short and a bit clunky, and can also feel like she has lower movement potential than a Super Dash Excalibur. Tail Wind's damage is also pretty disappointing. So the boost side of this ability is fine, however, let's patch-up the air-dash. make a new non-static animation for Tail Wind's dash that also allows her to reload in the process. Tail Wind's damage scales with melee mods change damage type to blast damage on boost, direct hit remains as slash increase base damage to 400 during the dash allow for more fluent movement by allowing Zephyr to change her direction during the entire flight process of Tail Wind. what I mean by this is say if Zephyr boosts forwards, if she turns her camera around, she will turn around and dash in the opposite direction (a U-Turn) increase the base range of Tail Wind to 25 meters allow duration to scale better with Tail Wind (it feels a bit short for a demi-flight ability) ( @EchoesOfRain suggestion) - two stage charge stage 1 (button press) - normal stage 2 - 30% more speed and range 2ND - Dive Bomb - A disappointing ability to say the least, pretty cool on paper, but wow does it fail and absolutely flop in practice. Contains okay CC and almost non-existent damage for a damage ability. A slightly stronger ground slam with CC that is somehow not as good? base energy cost is now 50 change its damage allow it to scale with melee damage mods increase its damage to 400 at base +75 damage per meter in the air damage type is blast more mechanics! on ground impact, Zephyr lets out an expanding shockwave that expands over 3 seconds based on range + the dive height shockwave starts at ground slam damage and decreases by 5% damage per meter shockwave starts outside of ground slam range shockwave knocks down enemies Zephyr slams her feet into the ground, instead of her heckin' neck... allow players to aim where they want Dive Bomb to connect ( @EchoesOfRain suggestion) "grounded version" of Dive Bomb - Zephyr will jump to where the reticule is aiming and do a pure CC version of Dive Bomb with no shockwave 3RD - Turbulence - DE... if you touch this ability... then make it better. Maybe something like visual touch-ups...? However, I do have two things to say... #fixthebugs slow units within Turbulence's range by 30% (hopefully that helps with the melee units ) synergies! casting Tail Wind while Turbulence is active doubles the range of Tail Wind (jump) and doubles damage of Tail Wind Dash casting Dive Bomb while Turbulence is active increases the Dive Bomb strength by 50% 4TH - Tornadoes - Unreliable, annoying, and non-interactive, I present to you Tornado! For starters, for the love of RNGesus, someone please explain to me why a wind elemental does MAGNETIC damage. I think that makes no sense at all, don't you? change this damage! 200 damage per second in the form of impact, puncture, and slash changing the elemental damage will add to the damage by 50%, not convert it absorbs damage in a 1 meter radius improve mechanics! Zephyr is the only entity able to alter Tornado damage damage multiplier is increased by 1 each third of the tornado's duration (power strength helps) - base multiplier starts at 1 charge up mechanics! stage 1 - creates 4 small tornadoes with 200 damage and 10 meter pull range fast speed stage 2 - creates 2 medium sized tornadoes with 350 damage and 20 meter pull range moderate speed stage 3 - creates 1 huge tornado with 500 damage per second and 30 meter pull range slow speed each charge stage costs 6 more energy visual cues for each charge stage damage types shall not be prioritized enemies cycle around the middle of the tornado give tornadoes actual AI to allow them to actively target enemies tornadoes spawn where you aim synergies! Dive Bombing into the Tornado will make it disperse, dealing double the damage of the tornado's current damage in double the area of pull Passive - Change? - There's been a hefty amount of debate as to whether or not Zephyr should get a change to her passive, many Tenno claiming that it makes her movement a bit clunky. So... we can make her a movement Frame, but let's not allow her base movement to completely outshine her abilities. I think that Zephyr's passive should give her a 30% evasion bonus in the air, along with 200% Aim-Glide time. It feels like it can work really well, what do you think? And that's about all. Please let me know your thoughts down below, I'd love to start up some discussion about our next Prime down below. Thanks for reading along Tenno! Edited January 25, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17 My Usual Color "Fixes" + Echoes of Rain Additions + Passive Tweaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkRuler2500 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Damn, you seriously packed quite alot of good ideas in it. I cannot say if that will *fix* Zephyr but at the very least she will become somewhat useable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said: Damn, you seriously packed quite alot of good ideas in it. I cannot say if that will *fix* Zephyr but at the very least she will become somewhat useable. Thanks, I was typing this and brainstorming for quite a while so I was wondering "did I overthink this and make her too complicated?" Thanks to your quick feedback, I think I'm in a safe spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty_Jado Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Of all the concepts I've seen, I like this one a lot, however @(Xbox One)HuntingWarrior's idea for being able to wall latch ONTO tornadoes and ride them around onto battle would be also quite fun, assuming allies can actually shoot through them. All of your ability changes would put Zephyr in a much more usable, less hated place. My only argument would be that keeping her first ability dealing slash damage and her second to do impact, as I (in my own opinion) feel like wind is a very physical element, if you know what I mean. Great work though! +1 to you! #Squaaaaaa!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Almighty_Jado said: Of all the concepts I've seen, I like this one a lot, however @(Xbox One)HuntingWarrior's idea for being able to wall latch ONTO tornadoes and ride them around onto battle would be also quite fun, assuming allies can actually shoot through them. All of your ability changes would put Zephyr in a much more usable, less hated place. My only argument would be that keeping her first ability dealing slash damage and her second to do impact, as I (in my own opinion) feel like wind is a very physical element, if you know what I mean. Great work though! +1 to you! #Squaaaaaa!!! Thank you very much Jado! Hmm... I see what you mean with that damage types, however, I changed it to blast purely for the term "blast of wind". I also didn't include Tornado riding because while it was fun, I feel like it would be very strange and would leave you highly susceptible to damage, considering how slow the Tornadoes actually are. #Squaaaaaa!!! (low-key a Mag main) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty_Jado Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Thank you very much Jado! Hmm... I see what you mean with that damage types, however, I changed it to blast purely for the term "blast of wind". I also didn't include Tornado riding because while it was fun, I feel like it would be very strange and would leave you highly susceptible to damage, considering how slow the Tornadoes actually are. #Squaaaaaa!!! (low-key a Mag main) True, but assuming you have your 3 on, you should be fine, right? As an added bonus, Tornadoes could retain the ability to block incoming fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Nah let em go all crazy like its funny lol, just shoot the tornado and let it take the bullets and it focus the damage on 1 enemy at a time. Kinda feel "how can a tornado do magnetic damage" is a silly question looking at hydroid summon a kraken anywhere (though that's badaz!!!) However I would like the magnetic status to be removed because it is quite annoying xD But yes dude, you nailed a wonderful rework idea for zephyr imo! Edited January 19, 2018 by (PS4)Ghost--00-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burned-Toast Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 tbh i love zephyr's current passive just because of what it allows me to do in the Plains tail wind--> operator>warframe>slide for like 100m--->repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoesOfRain Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I'd add the ability to use Divebomb while grounded, maybe launching Zephyr a fixed distance toward the reticle. It'd be a bit clunky to use on the ground (on purpose), but still usable. Also, maybe having the ability to charge up Tailwind for really long distances. Nova Can teleport at extreme ranges, having the option to go super far with Tailwind without constant uses would be nice otherwise, I'd be totally cool with this rework. Keeps the original kit, but actually makes it good and useful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 8 hours ago, (PS4)Ghost--00-- said: But yes dude, you nailed a wonderful rework idea for zephyr imo! Thank you very much! 8 hours ago, Burned-Toast said: tbh i love zephyr's current passive just because of what it allows me to do in the Plains tail wind--> operator>warframe>slide for like 100m--->repeat Yes, I also like it, even if it can be a bit strange at times. 7 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said: I'd add the ability to use Divebomb while grounded, maybe launching Zephyr a fixed distance toward the reticle. It'd be a bit clunky to use on the ground (on purpose), but still usable. Also, maybe having the ability to charge up Tailwind for really long distances. Nova Can teleport at extreme ranges, having the option to go super far with Tailwind without constant uses would be nice Actually, you just gave me some ideas! Check back in the original post to see them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)purpleskullgamin Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 So I have a question, have you taken Augments into account at all with any of your suggestion posts for frames? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 7 hours ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said: So I have a question, have you taken Augments into account at all with any of your suggestion posts for frames? Yes, I have actually. Forgive me for leaving it out. Let's use Zephyr as an example. Dive Bomb Vortex works the same. Same with Jet Stream. Funnel Cloud will create double the amount of Tornadoes with the associated charge stage (e.g. stage 3 charge creates 2 tornadoes instead of 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBeach Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 I think you hit all the issues on the nose without changing the skills too much. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Tail Wind's damage scales with melee mods change damage type to blast damage on boost and impact damage on direct hit Slash damage fits better than Blast. Wind cuts (look at rocks in canyons and how they get weathered down from high winds). And it dries you out, leading to skin tearing. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: stage 1 - creates 4 small tornadoes with 200 damage and 10 meter pull range fast speed stage 2 - creates 2 medium sized tornadoes with 350 damage and 20 meter pull range moderate speed stage 3 - creates 1 huge tornado with 500 damage per second and 30 meter pull range slow speed For all abilities you suggested this, only 2 stages. Quick press and long press effect. Managing 3 stages is clunky. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: allow for more fluent movement by allowing Zephyr to change her direction during the entire flight process of Tail Wind. what I mean by this is say if Zephyr boosts forwards, if she turns her camera around, she will turn around and dash in the opposite direction (a U-Turn) I don't understand the point of this. It's already too quick to do more than minor adjustments and you want it even quicker. Just aim where you actually want to go like it does now? Also, I think DE is against flight so probably not happening as it could be perceived as flight. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: allow it to scale with melee damage mods increase its damage to 400 at base +75 damage per meter in the air damage type is blast Melee damage mods can make abilities quite powerful. I would say to increase the Energy cost of Dive Bomb to compensate for this. It's currently 25 energy on an ability that's not meant to be spammed. Give it 100% status chance for guaranteed blast proc. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: more mechanics! on ground impact, Zephyr lets out an expanding shockwave that expands over 3 seconds based on range + the dive height shockwave starts at ground slam damage and decreases by 25 damage per meter shockwave starts outside of ground slam range shockwave slightly ragdolls enemies 25 damage per meter is nothing. Falls off to 50% of damage at maximum range. Also, how much range would this have? You have a base range on the AOE slam and then a shockwave that starts at the end of that? Is this going to hit an entire room? Sounds more like an ultimate to me. Also, people hate rag dolls that shoot enemies away. Just keep it a knockdown like dive bomb already does. And one last thing, this is just over-complicating the skill to do more of what it already does so DE probably wouldn't take this suggestion. You can achieve the same results by just tweaking its numbers or just adding AOE range to the base skill based on the height and giving it slight damage fall off. Adding melee mods to this skill fixes most of its damage issues. On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: (Echoes of Rain addition) "grounded version" of Dive Bomb - Zephyr will jump to where the reticule is aiming and do a pure CC version of Dive Bomb with no shockwave At first I was thinking Echoes of Rain was an augment mod. Now I'm confused what it is exactly? On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: slow units within Turbulence's range by 30% (hopefully that helps with the melee units ) synergies! casting Tail Wind while Turbulence is active doubles the range of Tail Wind casting Dive Bomb while Turbulence is active doubles the damage of Dive Bomb Don't remove turbulence's weakness. It's there for balance, imo. Double range from a skill that is always on could be more of a nuisance than a boon. I would say add this synergy OR the multi stage press of Tailwind. Double damage is a lot considering you're going to let Dive Bomb be affected by melee mods. 25% seems reasonable but I think that's more of a number you come up with when testing changes, which we can't do :( On 1/18/2018 at 7:23 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Tornado absorbs damage in a 5 meter radius I'm not sure why you chose this number. I don't want tornadoes pulling a magnetize and blocking my aim. Absorption range should stay as is. Your tornado charge-up mechanics take away from its augment mod viability. All in all, I like the changes even with the flaws I pointed out :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, MuscleBeach said: I think you hit all the issues on the nose without changing the skills too much. Slash damage fits better than Blast. Wind cuts (look at rocks in canyons and how they get weathered down from high winds). And it dries you out, leading to skin tearing. For all abilities you suggested this, only 2 stages. Quick press and long press effect. Managing 3 stages is clunky. I don't understand the point of this. It's already too quick to do more than minor adjustments and you want it even quicker. Just aim where you actually want to go like it does now? Also, I think DE is against flight so probably not happening as it could be perceived as flight. Melee damage mods can make abilities quite powerful. I would say to increase the Energy cost of Dive Bomb to compensate for this. It's currently 25 energy on an ability that's not meant to be spammed. Give it 100% status chance for guaranteed blast proc. 25 damage per meter is nothing. Falls off to 50% of damage at maximum range. Also, how much range would this have? You have a base range on the AOE slam and then a shockwave that starts at the end of that? Is this going to hit an entire room? Sounds more like an ultimate to me. Also, people hate rag dolls that shoot enemies away. Just keep it a knockdown like dive bomb already does. And one last thing, this is just over-complicating the skill to do more of what it already does so DE probably wouldn't take this suggestion. You can achieve the same results by just tweaking its numbers or just adding AOE range to the base skill based on the height and giving it slight damage fall off. Adding melee mods to this skill fixes most of its damage issues. At first I was thinking Echoes of Rain was an augment mod. Now I'm confused what it is exactly? Don't remove turbulence's weakness. It's there for balance, imo. Double range from a skill that is always on could be more of a nuisance than a boon. I would say add this synergy OR the multi stage press of Tailwind. Double damage is a lot considering you're going to let Dive Bomb be affected by melee mods. 25% seems reasonable but I think that's more of a number you come up with when testing changes, which we can't do :( I'm not sure why you chose this number. I don't want tornadoes pulling a magnetize and blocking my aim. Absorption range should stay as is. Your tornado charge-up mechanics take away from its augment mod viability. All in all, I like the changes even with the flaws I pointed out :) ^ I'll make a few tweaks. Oh, and Echoes of Rain left a comment that we should have Dive Bomb be able to be used on the ground. Edited January 25, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBeach Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 16 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: ^ I'll make a few tweaks. Oh, and Echoes of Rain left a comment that we should have Dive Bomb be able to be used on the ground. Well, I feel like an idiot lol. I don't pay attention to names beyond the person I'm quoting :P Keep in mind with my comments, I'm not a Zephyr expert like I would say I am with Atlas. I haven't really gotten around to Zephyr too much yet but some issues can be pretty obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said: Well, I feel like an idiot lol. I don't pay attention to names beyond the person I'm quoting :P Keep in mind with my comments, I'm not a Zephyr expert like I would say I am with Atlas. I haven't really gotten around to Zephyr too much yet but some issues can be pretty obvious. I believe I finished up with the tweaks. People are gonna' hate my Chroma thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBeach Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: I believe I finished up with the tweaks. People are gonna' hate my Chroma thoughts... I'm the guy who would remove Snow Globe from the game, along with Serration and the like, 90% ele damage mods, 60/60 status mods, and pretty much every other damage increasing mod with no real drawbacks, and replace them with damage type conversion mods instead of increased damage. I'll listen to your thoughts lol Edited January 25, 2018 by MuscleBeach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xemgoa Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Personally, I would combine Tailwind and Dive Bomb into one ability and give it a different name, and I would reserve the 2nd ability for something else. The 'new' first ability, when activated, would cause Zephyr to bound into the air. Activating the key when looking anywhere but down will toggle her ability to "fly". Aiming downward and pressing the key will end "flight mode" and she'll take a nose dive towards mouse point, creating said shockwave with her feet on impact. (My weak argument is that I don't see how a Warframe that bends the wind can't fly, but I digress. It would be nice to see her to be able to fly which might suit her better.) It combines the abilities into something compact and shouldn't be too difficult to understand(?). But my sentiments are the same for Zephyr - Her Ult (4th ability) needs to change and have more oomph. Albeit I would have just suggested that the multiple Tornadoes become one giant tornado with a sizeable pull in. Although I would of have any weapon fire that strays into the 'nado will harm enemies that are being swung around in the torrent of air. But I have to say, I like your ideas better, though I'm adamant on my conjoining Tailwind and Dive bomb into one idea more. Those are great suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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