Arca Plasmor Change

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

The augment just went live. Should DE now be forbidden from changing things if the community thinks too much time has passed?

Greg the intern messed up a function call back in U14, but we can't fix it because it's been in-game since then, oh well.

Then fix the augment for the voids sake!

If you car caughts fire when you use your windshield wiper do you go and remove the windows?

 

Also on your bolded statement, if greg seriously messed up something in U14 and havent managed to fix it yet its a shame. But let me repeat it IF he really messed up something and not just changed his mind then go ahead and fix it, but this is not the case here.

[peterc3]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Then fix the augment for the voids sake!

If you car caughts fire when you use your windshield wiper do you go and remove the windows?

 

Also on your bolded statement, if greg seriously messed up something in U14 and havent managed to fix it yet its a shame. But let me repeat it IF he really messed up something and not just changed his mind then go ahead and fix it, but this is not the case here.

The augment works as intended for every other weapon. Why would they change the augment, especially if they found that people were disproportionately using the augment and the Arca Plasmor? Wouldn't a fix become a greater priority for the Arca Plasmor when they release something that brings greater focus to the issue? What if they had planned to get this fix out but only now were they able to get it done and tested?

If I had as many problems with the car as the car forum seems to think it has, I wouldn't use that manufacturers cars anymore. People seem to have these urgent, dire problems with the game, nerfs they find dangerous. What do these mean when they keep playing the game?

[Cytobel]

41 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Because that is equivalent to making a weapon do what they intended it to do, that is spread a status over a group of enemies in a single shot. This would be like Pull ripping the heads off enemies and doing extra damage and DE fixing it to where Pull grabs the enemies' entire body and not do extra damage.

The community only gets upset when they can only kill things 7x over instead of 10. Maybe DE would actually listen if they kept it to a single thread and didn't cry about not doing enough damage to max level Simulacrum enemies.

And if that was the case they could well have done this change MUCH SOONER.  The fact is that this argument falls apart on the timing alone:  only when an Augment based solely on headshots comes out does a weapon that can easily manage them get nerfed.

Sorry, but no.  Worse still there are TONS of other weapons that can pull this off.

Tell you what:  watch the Ignus.  If it loses the headshot ability, then you were completely off base here.  It'll be tacit confirmation from DE that they screwed up with this augment and they've started to realize.

Point of fact:  THERE IS NO REASON for this particular nerf.  None.  The fact that the Arca Plasmor can create multiple headshots easily is IRRELEVANT.  Don't believe me?  Check out what you can do when you add punch through to the equation with Lasting Covenant on the table.  Multiple weapons are going to enable this Augment to push duration into the triple digits for Covenant.

The Arca wasn't even one of the meta shotguns.

EDIT:  By the way, because most people are making this mistake, I don't particularly use the Arca Plasmor.  I use a broad mix of weapons.  The thing that irks me here is that this ONE gun is being singled out for treatment that is beyond anything necessary.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cytobel

[Fallen_Echo]

12 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The augment works as intended for every other weapon. Why would they change the augment, especially if they found that people were disproportionately using the augment and the Arca Plasmor? Wouldn't a fix become a greater priority for the Arca Plasmor when they release something that brings greater focus to the issue? What if they had planned to get this fix out but only now were they able to get it done and tested?

If I had as many problems with the car as the car forum seems to think it has, I wouldn't use that manufacturers cars anymore. People seem to have these urgent, dire problems with the game, nerfs they find dangerous. What do these mean when they keep playing the game?

Every weapon in this game is capatable of dealing headshots and getting the headshot multipler, there are no expectations.

If a problem is caused by an augment then you fix the augment and not go and touch unrelated items. We have tons of easy headshot weapons some of them are easier to use than the plasmor and get the same results.

There was no issue to begin with, thats just a cheap excuse. The arca plasmor worked as intented, they just failed to think before releasing an augment based on headshot kills in a game where we have atleast 30 weapons capatable of easy headshot kills.

Also you think its ridicolous that people find nerfs dangerous when DE has a well documented behaviour of using sledgehammer nerfs? Their balance skills are as good and useable as a rhino used for main healer in a group.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Cytobel said:

@UncleWalrus: Believe you me, I KNOW what the Amprex can do.  The game decided I need 2 Rivens for that silly gun, and I'm NEVER going to complain about that!  Also, I main Volt, and firing an Amprex through an Electric Shield makes entire rooms do the Electric Boogaloo and brings ALL the crits to the yard...

I roll a Viral/Electric/Hunter Munitions Amprex and find that I can kill high-level mobs fairly effectively.  As long as you aim at the toughest target, you'll get a viral proc EVENTUALLY and then it's going to die to bleeds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I just don't get why this was done in the first place.  A casual glance told DE there could be an issue with that mod when you combined Harrow and the Arca Plasmor, but there are TONS of other weapon choices that ALSO allow you silly numbers of headshots.  If this was all about that Augment, then BRAVO DE.  Gross Augment in game, good mid-upper level gun out.

What's next?  Amprex can't headshot?  Then what about Argon Scope builds for the Amprex?  How about all the beam weapons?  Why would ANY of them be exempted from this change?  Then there's the Buzlok.  Then there are any of the hitscan rapid-fire guns with low damage and high crit (like the Grakatas or the Somas) that are also abusive with just a pinch of punch through...

It's not about this gun being OP, it's about an OP mod that should have been reviewed before something else in game became a scapegoat.

Dont forget all the melee weapons capatable of getting headshots, then after all of these getting nerfed remove the headshot crit bonus on harrow because thats too good for whatever weapon is left.

[Thrymm]

9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Popular betas are now automatically feature complete? Can betas have too many updates? Balance passes mean something is out of beta?

There are core systems that are continually being changed. The game itself is not done. The game is out of beta when the devs say it is.

The augment just went live. Should DE now be forbidden from changing things if the community thinks too much time has passed?

Greg the intern messed up a function call back in U14, but we can't fix it because it's been in-game since then, oh well.

An award winning, profitable game that has been out to the open public for nearly five years is about as beta as my 2012 Ram pickup is a concept car(here's a shocker: it wasn't a concept or experimental car last year either, or the year after that, or that, it's been a production model the day it went to a consumer instead of a tester even though Rams have gotten annual updates).  There comes a point that it's just plain stupid to pretend beta anymore.  It's dishonest and, frankly, it's perpetuated more by an infatuated portion of the fanbase than the company themselves.

There's nothing in particular wrong with nerfs, or buffs, or updates, or content additons etc.  Ham-handed, weak excuses with a flimsy basis in truth(at best), however......not so much.  Not only was the Arca Plasmor out for some time, but it clearly functioned correctly.  We get same or next-day hotfixes here when that isn't the case(seriously, DE addresses most "this wasn't right" type bugs extremely quickly), there's no need for pretending this is a fix here.

This particular nerf is...odd.  Maiming Strike melee has been dominating damage output for some time, adding even more additive crit than Harrow can, doing more damage than a headshotting arca plasmor ever hoped to do and, when combined with primed reach and a long polearm or whip, doesn't have a significantly shorter effective range than the plasmor(in other words, it's not a greater risk to use than this shotgun).  Just as notably, maiming strike builds do more damage than a pre-nerf Telos Boltace did, in the exact same way it did it.

Don't get me wrong, some folks will stroke out if maiming strike gets reduced, but the arca plasmor doesn't really fall in line with normal weapon nerf methodology---there are bigger damage issues in game, and this one didn't even entirely eclipse other shotguns or ranged weapons in general, and it wasn't the overriding "meta" that things like the Tonkor or Simulor had become to get nerf-worthy attention.  This one was simply a good, effective, popular weapon that now gets shelved because Harrow got an Augment that, frankly, I could keep rolling nearly as long as I could ever want with a semi auto so removing headshots from this doesn't even accomplish that particular item.

 

[Zhoyzu]

On 1/27/2018 at 1:30 AM, Cytobel said:

Which is why I said that punch through is the problem.  Basic logic.  Restructuring essential rules of the damage system to balance 1 weapon is ridiculous.

 

That would make for a better color scheme than you might think, and no.

Violating basic game mechanics for the sake of balancing a single weapon indicates severe logic issues in either that weapon or those mechanics.

Either way this is a bad change, as it opens up underlying systems to change at a moment's notice.  This means that every aspect of Warframe lacks solidity and that we can expect SEVERE bugs in the future.  It's just really, really bad for a system to add this sort of unnecessary complexity when a VASTLY more simple and correct solution is immediately apparent.

oh i totally agree with you, however if all i have to trade to keep this weapon as is is removing headshot damage thats fine by me. Also, blast damages do headshot. Penta w/ early det above heads. Theres actually a tooltip from a "tenno councilor" that tells you to do exactly that with the penta as well.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Zhoyzu

[Kayll]

So I'm assuming all this arguing has been for nothing,as pretty much everyone has been wrong.
When DE said it was hitting multiple headshots, they meant just that.

Upon testing headshots with the Arca Plasmor (currently bugged and dealing 0 damage on them),unmodded with no multishot would hit a target over 10+ times sometimes depending on where you aimed the head. If it was doing this before when headshots DID do damage, then clearly the weapon has been doing way way WAY more damage than was intended, so perhaps once they get down to this problem, maybe you guys will get your headshots back.

Here is an example.

https://gfycat.com/ConsiderateChiefAardvark

(Edit, Oh god its even worse with multishot, so many numbers pop up the other numbers despawn cause theres too many.)

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kayll

[Fallen_Echo]

41 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Because that is equivalent to making a weapon do what they intended it to do, that is spread a status over a group of enemies in a single shot. This would be like Pull ripping the heads off enemies and doing extra damage and DE fixing it to where Pull grabs the enemies' entire body and not do extra damage.

The community only gets upset when they can only kill things 7x over instead of 10. Maybe DE would actually listen if they kept it to a single thread and didn't cry about not doing enough damage to max level Simulacrum enemies.

Its was you who said that the number of the created threads is equilovent of how much a nerf was justified.

The community gets upset over many things and unnecesseray nerfs are the prime reasons.

[Cytobel]

15 minutes ago, Kayll said:

So I'm assuming all this arguing has been for nothing,as pretty much everyone has been wrong.... *snip*

Well there's a charming way to win people over, LOL!

M'kay, so let's ask this dumb question, because you've clearly researched this, and none of us are going to have a chance at being right:  How is this any different from ANY OTHER SHOTGUN?  I'm asking on the basic assumption that you checked out the Tigris family, the Heks, the Kohm, and the Boar Prime with punch through on them, correct?

If not, then I recommend you do so.  There is a reason that Shotguns getting massive damage coupled with damage falloff is something many of us have called DE out on for YEARS now.  Point of fact, when they added damage falloff they BOOSTED SHOTGUN DAMAGE.  Boosted damage next to punch through...  But as you were there for all of this, you already were aware of these facts, I assume?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cytobel

[Kayll]

14 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Well there's a charming way to win people over, LOL!

M'kay, so let's ask this dumb question, because you've clearly researched this, and none of us are going to have a chance at being right:  How is this any different from ANY OTHER SHOTGUN?  I'm asking on the basic assumption that you checked out the Tigris family, the Heks, the Kohm, and the Boar Prime with punch through on them, correct?

If not, then I recommend you do so.  There is a reason that Shotguns getting massive damage coupled with damage falloff is something many of us have called DE out on for YEARS now.  Point of fact, when they added damage falloff they BOOSTED SHOTGUN DAMAGE.  Boosted damage next to punch through...  But as you were there for all of this, you already were aware of these facts, I assume?

Son did you not see the GIF I linked?

Its a weapon shooting a single projectile hitting over 10 times?
You don't see the problem with that? If you can't then you're beyond hopeless.

[Cytobel]

2 minutes ago, Kayll said:

Son did you not see the GIF I linked?

Its a weapon shooting a single projectile hitting over 10 times?
You don't see the problem with that? If you can't then you're beyond hopeless.

EVERY. SHOTGUN.*

Either test it yourself or don't complain.  I'm sorry, but you've missed the point entirely.

*Phage is tentacle raep onna stick and Convectrix is a phaser array, not shotguns.

Also, that's how many headshots a second?  Think we can achieve similar with other weapons?  Want to bet against it?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Cytobel

[Luc1fer16]

hace 4 horas, peterkas dijo:

"The Arca Plasmor received a change yesterday where headshots no longer deal bonus damage. The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots. With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon, and the bonus pushed it too far out of that mold."

Yeah of course, now tell me the advantage to use the "good weapon designed to hit multiple target with a high-status chance", if i can take a melee weapon to does better than this? yeah, we no have problem with 400% range melee weapons with full 9999999 red crit dmg with headshot enabled, but arca plasmor can't do headshots.

High reload, low fire rate, low range, no headshot, yeah you've created a junk weapon, congrats!

 

Let's spin 2 win!!!

It was ridicoulus Overpowered and needed a nerf,for example not having punchtrough would have made it more balanced,btw opticor should follow the same path

[Kayll]

Sorry if you cant understand this, ill try to simplify it as much as possible

The Arca Plasmor (no multishot), shoots one large projectile, this 1 projectile hits 1 target, the amount of numbers that pop up should be 1 correct?
Well as it stands, that is not true, resulting in multiple numbers meaning something is wrong with the weapon.

Yes I understand how the other ACTUAL shotguns work, they shoot 5 projectiles, they all hit 1 target, 5 numbers come up.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, Kayll said:

So I'm assuming all this arguing has been for nothing,as pretty much everyone has been wrong.
When DE said it was hitting multiple headshots, they meant just that.

Upon testing headshots with the Arca Plasmor (currently bugged and dealing 0 damage on them),unmodded with no multishot would hit a target over 10+ times sometimes depending on where you aimed the head. If it was doing this before when headshots DID do damage, then clearly the weapon has been doing way way WAY more damage than was intended, so perhaps once they get down to this problem, maybe you guys will get your headshots back.

Here is an example.

https://gfycat.com/ConsiderateChiefAardvark

First of all that gif is worng because you go with the assuption that DE managed to code the arca plasmor as an actual wave gun and not a shotgun.

Each hit by default counts 4 times on the head. I also calling BS on your gif because without multishot its not possible to hit an enemy that much times in the head.

Even if we accept that this weapon shouldnt make headshots count 4 times that still means that it SHOULD count atleast once.

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, Kayll said:

Sorry if you cant understand this, ill try to simplify it as much as possible

The Arca Plasmor (no multishot), shoots one large projectile, this 1 projectile hits 1 target, the amount of numbers that pop up should be 1 correct?
Well as it stands, that is not true, resulting in multiple numbers meaning something is wrong with the weapon.

Yes I understand how the other ACTUAL shotguns work, they shoot 5 projectiles, they all hit 1 target, 5 numbers come up.

 

Its one projectile with multiple hit points, technically an aoe wave. Acts the exact same way as splash weapon works on headshots.

[Cytobel]

2 minutes ago, Kayll said:

Sorry if you cant understand this, ill try to simplify it as much as possible

The Arca Plasmor (no multishot), shoots one large projectile, this 1 projectile hits 1 target, the amount of numbers that pop up should be 1 correct?
Well as it stands, that is not true, resulting in multiple numbers meaning something is wrong with the weapon.

Yes I understand how the other ACTUAL shotguns work, they shoot 5 projectiles, they all hit 1 target, 5 numbers come up.

 

Okay, I see what your malfunction is.  The Arca Plasmor NEVER fired a single projectile for purposes of damage for some reason.  It's something I've seen crop up elsewhere for other people, and I made some mistakes there too.  I'm guessing that there's a set point grid per projectile and any hit points that meet up with an enemy inflict damage like any bullet would.

TBH, I'm just guessing here.  The fact that this is the source of the disagreement makes me feel more comfortable with all this.

[Kayll]

@Fallen_Echo
How would I possibly even get that much multishot for the weapon to hit over 10 times off one projectile?
And that statement about hitting multiple hit points is false since this does not occur if you shoot them in the body only in/above the head.
Anyway here.
https://gfycat.com/QueasyQuarterlyBeardeddragon

@Cytobel
I have no idea why you think it shoots more than one projectile without multishot, and that it should hit a target multiple times simply cause its classifed as a "shotgun".

 

[Cytobel]

21 minutes ago, Kayll said:

@Cytobel
I have no idea why you think it shoots more than one projectile without multishot, and that it should hit a target multiple times simply cause its classifed as a "shotgun".

 

Sorry, that's not what I said.  For the purposes of damage there is a difference between what the Plasmor does and what it looks like it's doing.  It has multiple damage points in the single projectile.

[(PSN)rolandassassin]

I felt it yesterday, so i traded my great arca riven for god tier Opticor yaay! 

I love arca plasmor so its a bit sad for me, but it was my first expected nerf since i started playing this game.

There is zero competition in shotguns, in majority of the game you fight many enemies and not just one boss, so tigris or hek can have higher DPS but in most of the time its no competition, even kohm with mythic roll cant keep up, not due to damage but in general gameplay there is massive group of enemies and plasmor just wipes then all in 2 seconds, other players with stuffed tigris or kohm wont have much fun when you are running arca unless its some lvl 100 stuff of grineers.

I couldnt even have proper fun with new Corinth, because Arca is just so much better, so i understand it partly.

I created godly Zaw like 3 weeks ago and rolled godly riven on it, it outperforms any Galatine, Lesion or any nonspin weapon. Since then i lost my taste in meele weapons :/. I enjoyed trying new meeles every few days but since i have this i didnt try anything else. There is just no motivation when i can kill with basic attack lvl100 enemies in 2 seconds 12 meters away. Overkill is a lot of fun but also takes another potentional fun away.

Anyway i hope its still viable after this.

Is Opticor next :(? I cant even test Opticor damage when i can one shot lvl 110 (cant test higher lvls yet) Heavy gunner with it lol (with God Riven)...

But its so much fun, do you think Opticor nerf is coming too?

Edited January 28, 2018 by (PS4)rolandassassin

[Kayll]

6 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Sorry, that's not what I said.  For the purposes of damage there is a difference between what the Plasmor does and what it looks like it's doing.  It has multiple damage points in the single projectile.

Where was the information obtained?
I must have missed it,that seems pretty useless to design it in such a way.
But I have taken it at face value simply cause that's just the easiest and quickest way to code it.

[TotallyLagging]

i'm more miffed that they changed it because of harrow than a genuine balance change

 

oh well going back to lenz i guess

[Cytobel]

7 minutes ago, Kayll said:

Where was the information obtained?
I must have missed it,that seems pretty useless to design it in such a way.
But I have taken it at face value simply cause that's just the easiest and quickest way to code it.

Honestly?  Just playtesting and observed results.  I've triedto figure out more, but unfortunately DE's been as transparent as usual about the way this is supposed to function.

No, it's not making much sense, but we can't otherwise explain the observed results.  Your confusion is completely natural.

[Kayll]

I posted this in another thread but i'll post it here as well,what im assuming is an example of what they were attempting to fix.(provided this bug wasnt introduced in this patch)

https://gfycat.com/QueasyQuarterlyBeardeddragon

Lots of numbers come up when aiming at/above the head of targets,way more than their should be.(them doing zero damage seems to be another bug that happened cause of this)
But if all those zeros were doing full damage before then of course the weapon was doing WAY more damage than was intended.

So theres a bug that causes headshots to hit multiple times, and theres another bug causing headshots to deal zero damage.
This is just what I have observed from my little time testing it.

[Kayll]

8 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Honestly?  Just playtesting and observed results.  I've triedto figure out more, but unfortunately DE's been as transparent as usual about the way this is supposed to function.

No, it's not making much sense, but we can't otherwise explain the observed results.  Your confusion is completely natural.

The only confusion I have here is why anyone would assume that the projectile of the Arca Plasmor is separated into multiple projectiles.
Because how it seems to function in game,it being that way is utterly pointless and just more work to code.
Anyway I'm pretty sure I've found the reason DE did what they did, it just seems that they didn't do it in a very good way.
Will just have to wait and see what they do next.
Anyway good luck with your weapon, I don't use it so it doesn't make much of a difference to me.