Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[phoenix1992]

11 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So... only one of you shows death count, and both of you are using shotguns cheering that you got the high score on kills?

/rollseyes

Shotguns will carry almost anything through a sortie if you are fast enough to shoot the thing before it can shoot you - which is also really great for covering for really bad warframe skills.  And I also wouldn't be surprised if you asked a couple of clanmates to idle at the start on the 90% one just so you can get the high score on the exterminate just so you can brag about how "awesome" a bad warframe is.

Sorry, this was in tonight's sorties.

You could also check up that those people are not in my clan.
I could also link multiple other instances of both Ember and Mag being *strong* including in solo play.

But something tells me that it is waste of time.

[Vanillu]

1 hour ago, jiminatorx said:

Nobody cares about WoF. I play ember all the time and it is as easy for me to tear through a level with melee. The issue has to do with surviveability. She has no defensive abilities except for  firequake. That is where the big nerf comes in and there is no type of compensation. 1/2 range is about 1/3 the original area coverage. It is a huge nerf. Her squishiness was demonstrated in the devstream when her energy ran out and she instantly died in MoT after 4 minutes. That is not level 100 bombards but basic MoT.

Also everyone cares about WoF. Her use with the firequake augment was the main reason I had used her for sorties and actually enjoyed it because of being able to focus on my aim. Her firequake augment provided survivability as well as being a support. I think noting the damage of how a frame does in Sub 30 level missions is quite irrelevant. Most frames max build on sub 30 should instantly kill most things, the thing worth noting is what it does in sorties, not 30 and below. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vanillu

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

I believe the range reduces over time 5 seconds at normal range before it reduces. So if you want it at high range you can just recast it, if you want damage you let range shrink and damage doubles instead. It opens a choice and forces the afk to actually manage there ability.

[(PSN)Silenceform]

@[DE]Connor @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Pablo @[DE]Scott

Hey everyone ! I'm here to provide some feedback, and this time for Ember !

So yesterday i didn't have time to put feedback so i had to wait for today to make a complete feedback post about Ember, then i woke up today and i saw a reddit post about changing her 1-3 Monday, i was reassured about your decision DE, but i still want to give feedback as well for some potential new abilities that Ember could have ( in the end, i decided to change Fireball - Fire Blast and World On Fire as well, her Accelerant stays the same ) and here's what i come with when thinking about it on my bed yesterday night before sleeping, ( i stayed awake until ~4.30 am thx for ruining my sleep schedule btw ) so let's get into it, good reading !

Fireball ( Enhanced version ) :

Ember throw fireballs at her enemies dealing fire damage in a small area of effect.
Enemies hit by the fireball are staggered and take fire damage on impact as well as a fire damage over time ( not heat proc ). Enemies caught in the explosion take fire damage.

Holding the ability makes the fireball grow bigger and deal more damage in a larger area of effect as she does a special animation to throw her more powerful fireball.
Enemies directly hit by the Fireball are knocked down, taking heavy fire damage on impact as well as a longer and stronger fire damage over time, with a guaranteed heat proc, they are panicking after standing up. Enemies who are caught in the explosion are staggered and take heavy fire damage.

All damage is affected by Ability Strength.
The damage over time is affected by Ability Duration.
The explosion is affected by Ability Range.

Casting multiple fireballs on the same enemy will reset the duration of the fire damage over time as well as increasing its damage.

The reason for this change :
Making the fireball ability stronger was very important for Ember, as making her first ability the main option to deal tons of damage while adding a bit of crowd control into the mix, allowing her to have a more action based gameplay in the game, rewarding players with a good aiming rather than having a aura as the main damaging source as we currently have.

Her new third ability :
Wall of flames ( Was previously named Fire Blast ) :

Ember create a wall of flames capable of hindering the enemy's vision, forcing them to either go through the flames or to find another way to resume the fight against her. Ember can create up to two walls at a time.
Enemies going through the flames are taking fire damage as long as they stay inside the wall. Each tick of damage have a high chance of causing a heat proc making them panicking. If both walls are casted at the same place, the fire damage stacks.

Damage is affected by Ability Strength while status chance is not.
Width of the Wall is affected by Ability Range.
Duration of the Wall is affected by Ability Duration.

The reason for this change :

Ember suffers from not being a tanky Warframe so the Wall of Flames makes up for it. With two Walls of Flames well placed, Ember can easily stay out of danger and kill her opponents while they are trying their best to fight back.

Her new fourth ability :
Torch ( Was previously named World On Fire ) :

Ember ignites herself, her upper body is engulfed in flames and will burn any opponents determined enough to figh her in melee range.
While Ember is ignited, she provide passive energy regeneration to nearby allies.
Enemies are taking fire damage if they are coming too close from her, with a chance to inflict heat proc.
Torch drains energy over time and remain active as long as Ember has energy. Torch will end if Ember runs out of energy or if deactivated; it can be reactivated by pressing the ability key again.

Damage is affected by Ability Strength.
Energy regeneration is affected by Ability Strength.
Energy regeneration is affected by Ability Range while the damaging aura is not.

The reason for this change :

I wanted to give Ember something special for her fourth ability ( the passive energy regen ) because most of the others warframe already grants status immunity, damage increase, health regen or even damage mitigation to allies, while keeping her fire aura.

This is not over yet ! New abilities means new augment mods !

For Wall of flames :
Corrosive ground : Enemies who goes through the flames have their armor reduced by 25% of their current value.
This mod is affected by Ability Strength.
Synergy with Fireball : If you hit an enemy located behind a wall of flames, the Fireball will be imbued by the augment mod, decreasing the armor value by the same amount !

For Torch :
Molten Shell : Create a protective barrier that reduce damage taken from enemies and provide immunity to status effects for a duration.
When a certain amount of damage has been accumulated, the barrier will explode, dealing blast damage to enemies caught into the explosion.
Ember will be staggered for a brief amount of time after the explosion. If the damage threshold haven't been reached, the barrier will disappear and Ember will be able to cast Molten Shell again.
Molten Shell is a alternate power ability for those who prefer more survivability over utility with a little twist if Ember takes too much damage from the enemies.
It cost energy to cast but won't drain energy anymore.

Damage threshold, damage mitigation and blast damage from the explosion are all affected by Ability Strength.
Duration of the barrier is affected by Ability Duration.
The range of the explosion is not affected by Ability Range.

I hope you liked what i proposed for Ember ! Please make that happening DE !

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)Silenceform

[CryoSpecter]

21 minutes ago, NZ_CodeBlue said:

Yes by making threads about "good change" without proper data and only the "I couldn't kill a thing because of Ember in low level content" post.

If you want to give feedback. You have to give both Positive and Negative, Why the change is good, and why it's bad.
And both with proper data with previous or current build.

Not just from being left behind by a nuke Ember on a Mercury alert.

Also take note that DE expects to be called names by rude players, and not get offended by other people crying in a chat that DE themselves ignore.
DE staffs are professional and have been doing balancing and nerf for a long time now, they can take the heat. 
Show respect to DE's stern image by not getting offended for them.

I never said feedback couldn't be negative. I don't fully agree with the changes they seek to implement. But as this is THEIR forums, not only should we be respectful in giving our feedback (you know, just being decent human beings), they can easily enforce respect by giving strikes to people who aren't abiding by community guidelines. As such, allow me to refer to the first rule of the community guidelines:

 

1) RESPECT - Let’s respect each-other and have fun. Respecting people means not insulting anyone’s race, religion, sexual orientation, skill-level, platform preference, or any other possible way to make someone feel uncomfortable in the Warframe community.

1a) BULLYING - Our forums are a place of understanding, and players with disabilities, handicaps, language barriers, etc should not be treated any differently. There is zero tolerance for bullying in our forums. Picking on, or pointing out, others’ flaws is anything but constructive. 

1b) DEVELOPER BASHING – Let’s face it, we aren’t perfect, we know this – we’re humans making a game. We work hard and read the forums with earnest care, so any insults will be cleaned up on the spot and not tolerated. Constructive feedback is encouraged and key to us improving the game.

For clarification:
What is an insult? “This Warframe is trash, whoever came up with it should be fired.”
What is constructive feedback? Constructive feedback, whether positive or negative, is about detailing what the situation is, and use details/personal experiences to explain your reasoning as well as include ways to improve it, in your own words. 

[IfritKajiTora]

Ember WOT (World On Fire) problem isn't a range, but it's the energy cost and damage.

This causes two problems:
1. With high efficiency build you can just turn ON 4(World on fire) and run around without turning OFF this ability, because it cost almost nothing and clean rooms by just rushing forward. 
2. Ember World on fire is killing everything on low and mid leveled missions (1-40 level), but does almost nothing to enemies higher than level 70.

This ability is weak balanced. Its super Over Powered on LOW leveled enemies, and too weak on HIGH leveled enemies.

Instead of reducing range, the better fix could be this:
1. Increase energy cost from 3 per second to 6 energy per second. This should make this ability to turn it ON only on needed situations. No more turn ON and forget because it can eat your energy pretty fast.
2. Increase damage from 400 to 1200 (3x). To make it viable on higher content.

Summary: You can't kill all the time with WOF on low-mid leveled content because of high energy cost, you can't use it all the time, so it will reduce kills by WOT on Low-Mid leveled missions. Increased damage won't help killing low-mid leveled enemies but it will help this ability to be still good on enemies level 70, more kills by WOT on high leveled missions. This will balance the ability more between LOW leveled enemies and HIGH leveled enemies (can test on Kill counts by WOT on both leveled enemies).

Right now it looks like this with 4 players (one ember) exterminate mission:
LOW level missions kills by WOT: 150
MID level missions kills by WOT: 90
HIGH level missions kills by WOT: 15

After these changes it should look like this:
LOW level missions kills by WOT: 90
MID level missions kills by WOT: 75
HIGH level missions kills by WOT: 50

Edited February 3, 2018 by IfritKajiTora

[T3Wanderer]

26 minutes ago, Uzkost said:

This is a horrible nerf.

Double damage for double energy cost is terrible just by itself. If it were damage that ignored armor I might disagree less with this. Ember has no survivability outside of Firequake so halving it's range is... ew, since fire damage is not that great. I mean at a certain point it will just be better to melee an enemy than to bother with a short range WoF in which case don't run Ember. WoF is pretty expensive already and doubling it's drain while halving it's range makes the skill moot, unless fighting infested which are mainly melee.I do have a few suggestions:

OPTION 1:

Let's replace the percentage under the icon with a gauge off to the side which fills up so it is more noticeable.

First let's make it take 45 seconds to fill
Second reduce World On Fires drain by, eh, 30~ish%
Finally let us cast her other abilities to reduce the gauge and therefore postpone the effect.

This causes a more active role and punishes afk farming without absolutely nerfing her. Reducing WoF drain helps us cast other abilities without worrying about running out of energy super quickly.

(The above is my favorite)

OPTION 2:

Change the fire quake augment to halt this effect AND do what it already does.
(I don't really like this Idea, but it's still an idea)

OPTION 3:

Increase the time it takes to reach 100% to 45 seconds (Don't ask why I like 45 seconds I just do), at 100% it TRIPLES the damage and reduces range by 1/3.
Drop World on Fires drain down to 2/s change Embers 3 (Fire Blast) to "Flame Cloak"
Flame Cloak: Ember super heats the air around her to the point that it melts most bullets.
Range: N/A
Damage: N/A
"Melts" 40%/60%/75% of the bullets
Drain: 2/s

So giving her defense is about the only way reducing the range on WoF is going to make her more than a "Rank to 30 and then toss her(Or a "she's good until Neptune")" warframe. Lowering the drain from WoF makes having "Flame Cloak" possible, now with the right build this could still lead to afk farm but a way to remedy this is to make "Flame Cloak" and WoF unaffected by duration mods. It also makes way for an augment that gives "Flame Cloak" to her allies which is pretty cool.

 

Ember is great for clearing the star chart but in sorties she needs the range to CC so halving range and doubling damage takes her out of sorties because of fire elemental not really pushing enough damage on shielded and armored enemies. And doubling any abilities drain is just a terrible idea, we have enough energy problems in the game already.

PS:

OPTION 4:

When she hits 100% Triple her damage, double the drain and double the range. (Lol)

 

As for the rest of the changes, they're fine... or better than fine.

I like these changes a lot. An idea I have is much like the first one. A gauge fills up on the side of the screen while WoF is activated. You get rid of fire blast and replace with it with something like Flame cloak. Flame cloak (or any other alternatives) reduces the gauge, while accelerant increases the gauge.

When the gauge is full, Ember releases a blast that persists for somewhere between 4 to 10 seconds, does double damage, and WoF has a small cool down.

This will force players to stop AFK farming but still make her 4 really useful in all regards, and make you juggle abilities for whatever effect you want.

I'm sure it's not perfect but it's a though. 

[(XBOX)NeutralSilence]

1 minute ago, Sajochi said:

In actual gameplay, like the third sortie, kuva floods and beyond 60 minute survivals, those numbers get higher. That's something that can be done consistently with very little practice. You want to make the drain a percentage that further gets multiplied with both the ability multiplier and enemy density. You sure that's a good idea?

I messed up and I ended up replying before I could finish my thought. 

As I stating in my first post, It would be best to remove the damage from Polarize and just make the Shield/Armor strip scale along with the shards. Currently the only ability Mag has that groups enemies together enough to get an okay amount of damage from Polarize is Magnetize and like I mentioned before enemies don't always get pulled in the bubble enough for that. They can walk out even when the target is alive with the bubble sucking them in, then once the target dies they're free to continue killing you.

[Huanthus]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

VOLT

Discharge - Removed the damage cap. Increased base damage output from 750 to 1200. Damage and stun duration are halved for enemies further away from Volt (affected by Mods).

This is a welcome adition but i'd add another mechanic  to volt's passive which acts as a capacitor (something that stores an determined ammount of electric energy) making it  convert overcapped  damage to energy  helping Volt's energy hunger problems (yeah i know that it could be solved with maxed out Efficiency but i'd like to have more cards to play that only that one or zenurik)

 

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

ATLAS

Rubble (new mechanic) - Comes from killing petrified enemies. Atlas collects rubble to restore his health, or temporarily increase armor if already at max health.

Landslide - Does bonus damage on petrified enemies. Killing petrified enemies with Landslide generates bonus rubble. We have also increased the contact radius at max rank from 1.5m to 2m.

Yay! will this also work with Path of statues?

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

BANSHEE

Resonating Quake (augment) - Upon cast, places a Quake that does not require channeling to maintain, meaning Banshee can move freely. Has a short duration, and does not move with the player. Has double the range of a regular Soundquake, but does more damage near the center.
 

;O will we be able to lay down multiple nukes? if  possible it would be awesome

 

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

EMBER

World On Fire - 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.
 

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”. By simply bullet jumping through levels with World on Fire active, enemies become a non-factor, making Ember a ubiquitous pick across most of the Star Chart. Like a mobile Resonating Quake, this monopoly on kills can leave squadmates struggling to keep up, in an attempt to see the enemy before they melt. These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range.

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

OK i get you and i dont mind, i mean its not a healthy playstyle but it doesnt  really solve  the ember problem, and that is  that she is the low level de facto  rusher but struggles with high level targets, besides the WoF changes i would suggest a change on her passive:

Scorch (new mechanic): per every  different  fire damage dealt to a target Ember deals an additional 1% of that target's max Health (up to 15%) this providing an alternative for  high level interesting gameplay, so you'd have to weave your skills and your weapons strikes to maximize this, also it would be awesome that if you are  making us go meele with her (which i' love for some reason) our melee hits or the proximity with on fire enemies would also help her regenerate energy.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

48 minutes ago, Lighto-sempai said:

Honestly, I think that we should try zephyr not shooting straight up with her first ability when she's flat on the ground. I always found it annoying when I was trying to fly, hit the gorund, and then shot straight up. Hopefully, when a player is on the ground, they travel towards the reticle. Everything else is like a dream! Wind is the best of all elements! Long live Avatar Aang!!!

The jump up is the charged version of tailwind, normal version is directional on reticule.

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, Caelward said:

It might be nice to be able to differentiate between a sudden straight line burst of movement or a large overhead arcing jump by using a charged use of tailwind.

Eh, turn the 'hover' into a buff for the Dive Bomb side, the current mash-together ignores what's actually bad about DB and shuffles it off to the side instead of fixing it. But if you charge up and launch first... maybe it could put an additional multiplier on the damage, or turn DB into a mini Rhino Stomp, or any of the other dozen buff ideas we've seen on these threads. DEScott reading only the first post of any rework thread instead of the discussions afterwards that made them better...

I am... very disappointed at the lack of actual fixes this rework is bringing to Zephyr as it's proposed so far.

[Senketsu_]

and here we go again with people jumping the gun before they get their hands on the new changes and test things out for themselves. Just becasue you might have to rethink your build and adapt your playstyle dosnt mean these are nerfs. These are changes made for the right reason, to let players test and come up with new ways to kill things. Embers new base damage is what your current max damage is, and will increase the more the ability is active. Banshee will finally lot be an easy to shoot wub machine, now she can run while she wubs, Just because you dont like the reason dosnt mean its the wrong one.

I would rather all powers have some kind of synergy then just one trick ponies.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Senketsu_

[Xantheis]

1 hour ago, FerroCutem said:

DE is nerfing these frames because they excel at farming specific things, like: Chroma killing Eidolons in seconds, Banshee wiping maps like Hydron for easy leveling and Ember demolishing (lower)level missions with her world on fire.

The abilities are being altered not because they excel at specific farming.  they are being altered because the developers and designers want an active game not a game where you can press 4 and go take a nap. AFK farming is not fun.  the game's entire design is about being fast and moving quickly and being active so, those abilities dont fit that design.  thats it.  nothing more. 

Until we all see the changes first hand, we will not know the end impact.  from my vantage point, the banshee change is a buff... the ember change makes her more viable at higher level content... chroma now has team benefits instead of being so selfish (the damage buff will end up being on par or more than his solo damage), and so on.  

Just like the doom and gloom over Gara's initial change, the devs will make changes if they are needed - see the Gara update details for proof of that. They may not come on your timeline but, they will come when the data supports them. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Xantheis
spelling

[Caelward]

Just now, Thaylien said:

Eh, turn the 'hover' into a buff for the Dive Bomb side, the current mash-together ignores what's actually bad about DB and shuffles it off to the side instead of fixing it. But if you charge up and launch first... maybe it could put an additional multiplier on the damage, or turn DB into a mini Rhino Stomp, or any of the other dozen buff ideas we've seen on these threads. DEScott reading only the first post of any rework thread instead of the discussions afterwards that made them better...

I am... very disappointed at the lack of actual fixes this rework is bringing to Zephyr as it's proposed so far.

I don't think they're paying any attention to us. It feels like DE is focusing on the players who tried Zephyr and put her down right away without gaining an understanding of what was wrong.

[Vanillu]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Silenceform said:

<snip>

I hope you liked what i proposed for Ember ! Please make that happening DE !

I see what you're getting at with your idea that you wanna make Ember a more-support esque like frame than she was prior, but that to me is kinda crossing the line of what she was originally designed as. Her design prior to this "workshop" was completely and utterly fine. I think people rushing through missions as a max build ember sub 30 is irrelevant. Not end game content so it doesn't matter and she should be doing that regardless as I would imagine with most frames.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Eh, turn the 'hover' into a buff for the Dive Bomb side, the current mash-together ignores what's actually bad about DB and shuffles it off to the side instead of fixing it. But if you charge up and launch first... maybe it could put an additional multiplier on the damage, or turn DB into a mini Rhino Stomp, or any of the other dozen buff ideas we've seen on these threads. DEScott reading only the first post of any rework thread instead of the discussions afterwards that made them better...

I am... very disappointed at the lack of actual fixes this rework is bringing to Zephyr as it's proposed so far.

Even though we've disagreed passionately on how she should be fixed in the past, I'm glad to see that here and now we're able to come to common ground that these fixes ultimately do nothing for her problems. This is somewhat pleasing to me

[Sajochi]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)NeutralSilence said:

I messed up and I ended up replying before I could finish my thought. 

As I stating in my first post, It would be best to remove the damage from Polarize and just make the Shield/Armor strip scale along with the shards. Currently the only ability Mag has that groups enemies together enough to get an okay amount of damage from Polarize is Magnetize and like I mentioned before enemies don't always get pulled in the bubble enough for that. They can walk out even when the target is alive with the bubble sucking them in, then once the target dies they're free to continue killing you.

So how do the shards get their damage? Because the drain damage is stored in the shards for polarize. You just suggested a huge nerf. 

 

Also pull exists. You can pull enemies into your wave. If you have a magnetize bubble, pop a polarize then hit crush, enemies will be drawn into magnetize while getting hit with polarize. Combo your abilities. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Sajochi

[DrakoKnight48]

8 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

Reb was running Mot, which has a damage multiplier attached to it. Also we are getting double damage in exchange. And as has been continuously stated, they want the game to be interactive, not press a button and leave it. Also, one of my original suggestions for decreasing range was damage reduction to compensate for the fact that she will become close quarters.

This thread is meant as a discussion of suggestions for how to help better implement the changes they have in mind, not complain without offering any real solutions or compromises.

Most World on Fire Ember's I've played with are actively moving around same as me. I'm moving using my primary and secondary weapons, while my fire quake augment to CC enemies. 

You can all this threat whatever you want buh, but advocating that DE keep Ember's abilities the way they are by not nerfing her to the ground. The drain, the range reduction, a combo that'll stop most of the player base from using the frame. If I want my Ember to deal damage while having a good amount of range, hey I got Blind rage, Transient Fortitude, Intensify, and Power Drift on my in my mod collection. This is a straight up senseless nerf and I'm treating it as such.   

[TheLexiConArtist]

43 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

Once again, if you listened to the stream you would have heard the line" With Mesa, at least you have to aim". And once again, that's a different issue that needs to be addressed. Quit comparing one issue with another and saying" See look, it's ok!"

World on fire. Half the energy of whatever AOE ability you're thinking and then basically nothing (3 energy/s) to keep it on. Deals 400 damage per second to 5 enemies AND 400 damage every 2-5 seconds to enemies randomly. So 28 energy to deal 800 damage instantly in 15m. That's already better than a lot of nuke abilities, which is why there's the 5 person cap. So every 5 seconds, you spend 15 energy to deal 2000 damage (which is as much as the strongest nukes in the game) in about the same range as other nukes. And that's not including the random plumes. So what exactly is less effective here?

They didn't have to aim, they got nerfed. WoF doesn't have to aim, it's getting nerfed. Mesa DOES have to aim, not getting nerfed. Listen to the stream. Mesa may even get nerfed some day and Peacemaker requires aiming. So once again, what's your point? That mirage had to press more than one button? You're not making a case here. That just makes WoF look even worse.

I'm just going to repeat myself: Quit comparing one issue with another and saying" See look, it's ok!" They're clearly trying to stop this.

This is what they're doing and you're not proposing any solutions for the parts you don't agree with. Nor are you even commenting on any ideas that actually were constructive in this thread. Exactly what are you doing besides this? 

Just because it was said by the devs, in a stream, does not make it true and accurate beyond any criticism.

I'm allowed to give the feedback that the range reduction is wrong and totally unwarranted just as much as you're, unfortunately, allowed to post things like comparing the net total output of an AOE to the individual target damage of other AOEs and say that "A > B therefore A is no less effective".

And if you think 3 energy per second (while also invalidating energy regen) is 'nothing' then you're probably either banking on Arcane Energise or Energy Restore abuse, neither of which are unique to Ember and should not dictate a balance change for her over any other Warframe. Other frames with non-channeled AOEs to spam get the benefit of energy regeneration. That's already a price paid for channeling, which you seem happy to ignore (and allow DE to forget).

 

Mesa barely has to aim, pretty much as little as Mirage arguably 'aimed', and that just goes to show how completely detached from consistent logic the stream commentary can be.

Comparitively she aims more than the aimbot predecessor required, yes, but pointing 50% of your entire field of view in the general direction of enemies (and the ability to hold it there, not even reactively triggering damage) is hardly a burden of aiming.

 

There appears to be no point in discourse with you because you're just going to Texas Sharpshooter away any evidence that runs counter to this fallacious claim of WoF being somehow better than everything else in the game.

There's a little saying we have around these parts that goes a little something like this: Everything is OP on Mercury.

[Ailyene]

While I actually agree with Chroma needing a fix, I am personally afraid that nerfing Chroma for their given reason opens the door to nerfing a lot of other buff abilities that don't use their off of Base Damage buff formula 'like all other damage boosting abilities'.

There are actually very few other buffs that work on Base Damage rather than Modded Damage in the game, Octavia's Amp and Mesa's Shooting Gallery are the only two I can think of.

Ember's Flash Accelerant, Saryn's Venom Dose, Frost's Freeze Force, Ember's Fireball Frenzy, Volt's Shock Trooper and Oberon's Smite infusion buffs go off of all mods minus Elemental Damage Mods.

Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Mirage's Hall of Mirrors, Ivara's Navigator, and Saryn's Toxic Lash go off of fully modded damage.

[ZodiacShinryu]

I can agree that perhaps we should play around with the changes but there are some odd dynamics this brings to Ember, in theory. High level gameplay with Ember is usually high range (less concern of damage) WoF CC or High p.str, mid range Accelerant. The reason being that armor hits Ember pretty hard. Doubling small damage output means nothing to an enemy that will have 100x that effectively. The question is will a firequake focused max range build be ineffective with half its range or constant micromanaging? It is hard to say. The map layout will make the biggest difference since Ember's WoF has an enemy target limit.  If the range becomes a huge deal then Ember needs to toggle a lot more which is a break in flow as well moments where she becomes locked in an animation briefly.

Personally I think my biggest concern is that, in theory, for lots of builds lacking relatively high amounts of range (Firequake or not) will be drawn into a smaller radius than a handful of ranged based melee. That just defeats the purpose of WoF because your melee weapon is already going to do more damage in nearly every case.

That being said, they could rework the augment to decrease the damage of WoF (say 75%) while increasing the range back to base at least for the purposes of stressing a CC functionality. Personally I think they should roll Fireblast into WoF and give her a new 3 which could be more CC focused maybe even defensive in return.

[DrakoKnight48]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

I don’t think ppl are getting It. These aren’t even nerfs. I really don’t understand why ppl don’t like the new Banshee augment. These changes are good to these Warframe’s. The day that DE nerf fast nova is the day that we all riot.

Ember's fourth ability will ramp up in energy drain same as Valkyr's hysteria does now. Not only this but the range of Wold on fire will slowly decrease but damage will double. Problem is, Ember isn't a tank. She's a very squishy frame who needs CC in order to survive high level content above 50. Although I do agree. Banshee's augment change sounds nice. Only thing I'm wondering is how long does the duration last?  

[CryoSpecter]

1 minute ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

Most World on Fire Ember's I've played with are actively moving around same as me. I'm moving using my primary and secondary weapons, while my fire quake augment to CC enemies. 

You can all this threat whatever you want buh, but advocating that DE keep Ember's abilities the way they are by not nerfing her to the ground. The drain, the range reduction, a combo that'll stop most of the player base from using the frame. If I want my Ember to deal damage while having a good amount of range, hey I got Blind rage, Transient Fortitude, Intensify, and Power Drift on my in my mod collection. This is a straight up senseless nerf and I'm treating it as such.   

Regardless of whether you like it, they are implementing changes. These may not be the final changes, and we as a community should provide constructive feedback in order to help them change things in a way that makes the game engaging still. And in terms of CC, last I checked WoF only targets 5 enemies at a time. So as it stands, this really doesn't do much to affect it's CC potential except narrow the range so it CCs enemies nearer to you instead.

Also if you think this is nerfing her into the ground, the current changes really aren't that severe all things considered and "nerfing her to the ground" is really an all-or-nothing statement, which everyone knows is not that simple when it comes to balancing. As I mentioned, the current energy ramping is child's play, and the only real hit is the range reduction (but since the damage inherently doubles, the emphasis on damage is kinda irrelevant, ntm you building her for CC means you probably aren't focusing on strength anyway).

[(XBOX)Sheady]

Yes she is used as an AFK for lower level content (not as much as banshee was) but was typically used for CC or speed running exterminates. However similar feats can be done with a maim Equanox, spore Saryn, peacemaker Mesa (who also can have 95% damage reduction at 145% Strength). These frames require SLIGHTLY more effort, pressing 4 (or in Saryn's case 2&3) repeatedly, but they murder the entire tile set with little to no effort, yet none of them have been touched. I do not advocate rampant nerfs, certain things should stay the way they are like Chroma's Vex armor, or buffed like IPS (not nerfing slash) as they have been like that for ages, and the community has accepted it for the most part. But Ember just got shafted like Mag did way back when; and notice how many Mag players there are. The Banshee change i can rationalize, and it makes her better for most content and cuts down on the irritation; however changing an ability that is not broken OP sealed ember's coffin. We don's need another close range DPS frame that is as squishy as she is. 

[Vanillu]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Sheady said:

Yes she is used as an AFK for lower level content (not as much as banshee was) but was typically used for CC or speed running exterminates. However similar feats can be done with a maim Equanox, spore Saryn, peacemaker Mesa (who also can have 95% damage reduction at 145% Strength). These frames require SLIGHTLY more effort, pressing 4 (or in Saryn's case 2&3) repeatedly, but they murder the entire tile set with little to no effort, yet none of them have been touched. I do not advocate rampant nerfs, certain things should stay the way they are like Chroma's Vex armor, or buffed like IPS (not nerfing slash) as they have been like that for ages, and the community has accepted it for the most part. But Ember just got shafted like Mag did way back when; and notice how many Mag players there are. The Banshee change i can rationalize, and it makes her better for most content and cuts down on the irritation; however changing an ability that is not broken OP sealed ember's coffin. We don's need another close range DPS frame that is as squishy as she is. 

Amen man, I completely agree with you. Couldn't have said it better myself. I'd rather not see my main frame getting shafted just like you said like Mag did. I personally don't care much for the Banshee nerf because I love her sonar esque playstyle more for my aiming level gameplay.