Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Solarsyphon]

I like the changes. Only 2 things. I'd like ember to be set on fire when her world on fire reaches 100% because it will basically make it an overcharge mechanic (and address the question of why she has her passive). I'd also prefer if Mags crush instead pulled all targets together because Polarize and Magnetize work best when enemies are grouped up and pull just isn't accurate enough for that.

[ChromaUmbra]

50 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ShoulderCliff66 said:

Even before this fix, if you were even only a few minutes on Mot and your 2 and 3 ran out, you'd still get melted.  I think his defenses will still be good enough to go a long time at high level, play sortie 3, or whatever.  I mean, I still bring Mag, Volt, and other squishies into those.

Those other frames don't have abilities that require them to take damage.  It doesn't make any sense at all for Chroma to have his survivability nerfed this hard.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Bladefeather

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Bladefeather:

Those other frames don't have abilities that require them to take damage.  It doesn't make any sense at all for Chroma to have his survivability nerfed this hard.

that s not true  to get a decent rhino iron skin shield u have to absorb lot s of dmg in a very small time window

[ChromaUmbra]

1 minute ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

that s not true  to get a decent rhino iron skin shield u have to absorb lot s of dmg in a very small time window

Rhino was not mentioned in the post I quoted, and is not a "squishy" frame.  Chroma is going to lose most of his survivability when this nerf happens, yet his buff still requires him to take damage.

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

chroma is currently more tanky than rhino if u play him properly how is he squishy?

[Himenoinu]

13 minutes ago, Bladefeather said:

Those other frames don't have abilities that require them to take damage.  It doesn't make any sense at all for Chroma to have his survivability nerfed this hard.

"..his survivability nerf this hard". So Chroma starts with more shields and half of Valkyr's armor. Applying just Vex buff currently beats the armor value of Valkyr's War Cry with a fully upgraded armor. Looking at the Wiki armor calculation, he'd have a 97.69% damage reduction, with a 12684 (that's OVER 9000!) armor value if using all the armor mods and a 93.37% damage reduction - armor value of 4228 - with no mods equipped. Compare that to Valkyr Prime's 3535 armor as the end value with a 205% strength modifier for War Cry and all 3 armor mods maxed. That's excessive from any possible point of view. Even more seeing how Valkyr could hold on decently (just last night) using no Vitality in the 2nd stage of the sortie.

You're not complaining about Chroma's survivability, but about god-mode being taken away from you :D

[ChromaUmbra]

38 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

"..his survivability nerf this hard". So Chroma starts with more shields and half of Valkyr's armor. Applying just Vex buff currently beats the armor value of Valkyr's War Cry with a fully upgraded armor. Looking at the Wiki armor calculation, he'd have a 97.69% damage reduction, with a 12684 (that's OVER 9000!) armor value if using all the armor mods and a 93.37% damage reduction - armor value of 4228 - with no mods equipped. Compare that to Valkyr Prime's 3535 armor as the end value with a 205% strength modifier for War Cry and all 3 armor mods maxed. That's excessive from any possible point of view. Even more seeing how Valkyr could hold on decently (just last night) using no Vitality in the 2nd stage of the sortie.

You're not complaining about Chroma's survivability, but about god-mode being taken away from you :D

I guess they should also nerf all the other frames who happen to have higher ehp than Valkyr, too, right?  There's a difference between taking away "god mode" and nerfing something so hard that it's survivability gets cut down to less than half of what it currently is.  Oh, and Chroma also can't become immune to damage, unlike Valkyr.  How's that for "god mode"?

Edited February 6, 2018 by Bladefeather

[Himenoinu]

2 minutes ago, Bladefeather said:

I guess they should also nerf all the other frames who happen to have higher ehp than Valkyr too, right?

Players that enjoy the frames that happen to have higher usually don't complain about survivability of their favorite tank. And the thing is, at the end of the day, Chroma'll still have high survivability:

Without any Vex Armor effects, using just Armored Agility and Steel Fiber, you have a 75% damage reduction. What I mean by that is his survivability isn't an issue, not when you're comparing the lizard to virtually any other warframe. The changes in the way VA will work will not endager the lizard the way you're making it sound. Survivability?! Hmm... I'm guessing yeah, if one's playstyle is to just sit in the middle of an area spraying bullets with no worries about anything. I think that things would be much smoother and the conversations less heated if everyone would stop beating around the bush, using politicians' tricks to persuade while avoiding the actual reason of a statement.

Come up with some numbers (or some vids) to support this statement. The numbers as they are presented on the wiki tend to invalidate your claim about any squishiness effect on Chroma.

Lastly, Vex Armor calculations were announced to not go as intended. And while players are reaping the benefits of bugs and unintended game mechanics for their duration (like with the kavabrow or Ballista's Cloning) they usually don't expect them to never be fixed and are not picking up the pitchforks against the mechanic/bug getting fixed. Nerfing a bug isn't actually a fix?

And to answer your question, yes, they should also nerf all the other frames who happen to have buggy stats calculations that give them the - otherwise so dull - god-mode effect.

[Himenoinu]

6 hours ago, Aegni said:

Prove that there is a problem.  you're hearing from a very vocal minority and suggesting that therefore, the majority have an issue with it.  Even if they did, it doesn't mean anything would necessarily need to be changed.  For example, the majority of players still hate Limbo despite the fact his design has made him much more agreeable.  The majority of players hate Frost players who leave snowgloves in a state where it inhibits gameplay.

Shall we change them because the majority are unhappy whenever they encounter such an issue? Not really...no

Ember falls in this category except only a minority of people are complaining about it and an even smaller number leave the game over it if any. I'd be money on it

Rather off-topic, but Ember players sometimes leave a defense map if there's a Banshee there. Even if a Banshee will not trigger, like you put it,

6 hours ago, Aegni said:

2. Cannot surpass an obstacle due to difficulty and become frustrated then quit.

but becaue she'll give them the feeling that

6 hours ago, Aegni said:

1.  They feel the content is lacking and do not have anything to do.

When there's nothing to fight in a map, then there's no content. So affinity and drops don't motivate them to stick around for the duration.

 

What needs to be done and DE can't do a doodoo about it is fixing the players' selfish or self-centered behavior in a group. I mean, there is a tool to fix it, composed from the recruit channel and the drop down menu that allows us to switch between public and friends, ye? But these two things don't actually help much, because if anyone would use them to avoid Limbos, Frosts, Embers and Banshees ruining their fun, we'd have a more segregated community and the hatred towards those frames would increase, even if they're all good frames that could prove invaluable in various missions.

As an example, when playing on Banshee, I was sometimes even telling the team that I can stop the quaking if they want to fight or if they get bored of just sitting there. I was using sonar a lot and sometimes intermitently using quake to avoid killing the enemies too far from my team. Of course, if no one cared about loot and were all just stacking on me, that I would abuse quake sometimes even past the point of being penalized for afk'ing.

Somehow, Embers never do such things. In 3 months of playing I only saw one player stopping WoF because the mobs were dying too fast in a fissure mission and we were in danger of completing the round without 10 reactants. Warframes are like guns. Guns don't kill the fun of the game. People do :D

[ChromaUmbra]

1 minute ago, Himenoinu said:

Players that enjoy the frames that happen to have higher usually don't complain about survivability of their favorite tank. And the thing is, at the end of the day, Chroma'll still have high survivability:

Without any Vex Armor effects, using just Armored Agility and Steel Fiber, you have a 75% damage reduction. What I mean by that is his survivability isn't an issue, not when you're comparing the lizard to virtually any other warframe. The changes in the way VA will work will not endager the lizard the way you're making it sound. Survivability?! Hmm... I'm guessing yeah, if one's playstyle is to just sit in the middle of an area spraying bullets with no worries about anything. I think that things would be much smoother and the conversations less heated if everyone would stop beating around the bush, using politicians' tricks to persuade while avoiding the actual reason of a statement.

Come up with some numbers (or some vids) to support this statement. The numbers as they are presented on the wiki tend to invalidate your claim about any squishiness effect on Chroma.

Lastly, Vex Armor calculations were announced to not go as intended. And while players are reaping the benefits of bugs and unintended game mechanics for their duration (like with the kavabrow or Ballista's Cloning) they usually don't expect them to never be fixed and are not picking up the pitchforks against the mechanic/bug getting fixed. Nerfing a bug isn't actually a fix?

And to answer your question, yes, they should also nerf all the other frames who happen to have buggy stats calculations that give them the - otherwise so dull - god-mode effect.

Chroma isn't squishy and I never said that he is.  I'm not complaining about his current survivability at all.  After this nerf, however, he will have lower ehp than any other tank frame, while still being required to take damage.  You don't see why that's a problem?

[Sqecmi]

6 часов назад, Aegni сказал:

I do not takeit personally, but, I also know for a fact that in the time I, and many other clanmates have been playing, not a single player quits the game over Ember clearing an entire room. IN fact, you know why?  Primarily because people quit for the following reasons.

1.  They feel the content is lacking and do not have anything to do.

2. Cannot surpass an obstacle due to difficulty and become frustrated then quit.

3. Anything involving money.

 

Never does anyone ever quit because a weapon is too strong, or an ability is too strong, or a warframeis too strong.  Only time people due such a thing is when its a competitive matter and the aspect in which Ember acts is not competitive in anyway.

that about too strong weapon is actually your 1.

if something is too strong, there is no point  in other options, so they feel content is lacking and do not have anything to do.

[ChromaUmbra]

1 hour ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

chroma is currently more tanky than rhino if u play him properly how is he squishy?

It's not about how he currently is.  After this nerf, Chroma will be significantly less tanky than Rhino.

[Revox79]

A good step in the right direction for Zephyr, However I would like to see her a bit more specialized in something (DPS, CC,etc.) rather than have her use a kit that that does not exell in anything in particular. aswell a true flying ability might be nice. You could make it so that when she has her tornado's and Jetstream active.when she activates tail wind(at a very reduced cost) she enters a Titania-like flying mode(reducing her size to 75% to avoid hitting everything in your way) as a nice alternative to Titania's mobility (also would be very useful on the plains). Other than that good work guys

Edited February 6, 2018 by Revox79

[Himenoinu]

18 minutes ago, Bladefeather said:

Chroma isn't squishy and I never said that he is.  I'm not complaining about his current survivability at all.  After this nerf, however, he will have lower ehp than any other tank frame, while still being required to take damage.  You don't see why that's a problem?

It's like saying I have to take damage to have optimal energy management because I use the Rage mod.

"Scorn and Fury will gradually increase each time shields or health are hit until they reach their maximum percentages. 400 shield points must be lost to maximize Scorn", Wiki says. That would imply that no damage to Chroma is required at all to up the lizard's armor and, subsequently beef the bugger up. Regardless of how the formulae for calculating the armor buff works, you only need to sacrifice shields - which becomes a problem if you have none anyway - like in some nightmare missions :P

Play pretty much any frame that currently gets anywhere near Chroma's destructive ability (thanks to its - again - Vex Armor). Check their EHP. You don't see why that's not a problem? :D Any warframe that can unleash destruction of Chroma's magnitude would have a steep price to pay in survivability. So Chroma was the mutant here, being able to punch an eidolon into yesterday and also sleep undisturbed, like a baby, under heavy fire.

In the end, I do believe that if the lizard will prove to be too frail after the patch, steps will be taken to fine tune the ability. I've been ranting about Banshee's quake gathering cobwebs in the future, but I stopped. I didn't play her with the new RQ so it's too early to form an opinion. Did the same thing regarding Ember (celebrating her reworked WoF), but I stopped that too because the price she has to pay to stop being a nuisance in low level missions might be too steep.

So let's get our hands on the warframes first. That is unless you can closely replicate the values now with Chroma and prove your point. Since with both Ember and Chroma it's about calculations, it's easy to do it. Banshee'll have a new mechanic, so that has to be field tested. So?! Will you take up on the challenge and prove with numbers what you stated? :D

[Guest]

Hello all,

See everyone has been very busy voicing their opinion and wanted to add my 2 cents.

I understand that changes are needed to ensure the game stays in balance, but a friend of mine recently asked if I enjoy using Octavia, to which I responded no and left my friend in disgust.

Ever since update 18.12 on the 17th of May 2016, I have avoided putting forma and reactors / catalyst on newly release frames and weapons, based on this exact "revisit". I have been doing this even less after the telos boltace rework.

I feel two perceptions played a huge part in these fixed. The "press 4 to win" mentality and players using macro's to abuse certain mechanics like telos boltace.

I'd like to ask, DE, please, when planning new items for release, please test them extensively. You know from the data and feedback how and where players will use certain abilities. 

 

[ChromaUmbra]

26 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

It's like saying I have to take damage to have optimal energy management because I use the Rage mod.

"Scorn and Fury will gradually increase each time shields or health are hit until they reach their maximum percentages. 400 shield points must be lost to maximize Scorn", Wiki says. That would imply that no damage to Chroma is required at all to up the lizard's armor and, subsequently beef the bugger up. Regardless of how the formulae for calculating the armor buff works, you only need to sacrifice shields - which becomes a problem if you have none anyway - like in some nightmare missions :P

Play pretty much any frame that currently gets anywhere near Chroma's destructive ability (thanks to its - again - Vex Armor). Check their EHP. You don't see why that's not a problem? :D Any warframe that can unleash destruction of Chroma's magnitude would have a steep price to pay in survivability. So Chroma was the mutant here, being able to punch an eidolon into yesterday and also sleep undisturbed, like a baby, under heavy fire.

In the end, I do believe that if the lizard will prove to be too frail after the patch, steps will be taken to fine tune the ability. I've been ranting about Banshee's quake gathering cobwebs in the future, but I stopped. I didn't play her with the new RQ so it's too early to form an opinion. Did the same thing regarding Ember (celebrating her reworked WoF), but I stopped that too because the price she has to pay to stop being a nuisance in low level missions might be too steep.

So let's get our hands on the warframes first. That is unless you can closely replicate the values now with Chroma and prove your point. Since with both Ember and Chroma it's about calculations, it's easy to do it. Banshee'll have a new mechanic, so that has to be field tested. So?! Will you take up on the challenge and prove with numbers what you stated? :D

You still need to sacrifice hp for damage.  That "destructive ability" is also getting nerfed, so there's no reason for him to pay in survivability.  Someone else in this thread already gave the numbers to prove it.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Bladefeather

[ChromaUmbra]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:34 PM, Xzorn said:

Why are you guys hating on Chroma because he makes an already Trivial boss fight more Trivial?

First off. Multiplicative damage bonus has been in the game for years. Rhino's Roar, Banshee's Sonar as examples. So "in-line with other damage buffs" is straight up BS. You're not fooling anymore. Secondly, No numbers were mentioned nor was it mentioned how this affects his armor armor buff. Hm.. avoiding Backlash?

These are nerfs to a frame while giving none of the buffs and QoL things that players have asked for simply because of Teralyst which frankly few of your players actually give a damn about 3 weeks after PoE. I said on most of those threads be careful what you ask for and it would be better off if DE didn't pay Chroma attention because despite him doing damage he gets one-shot before he can actually make full of of it just like the rest.

EDIT:  I wanted to follow up with some eHP calculations based on what was said in the stream.

-Old Chroma-
344% Power Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 5.16) = 2,541
2,541 * 12.04 = 30,593.64 = 0.99028
960 / (1- 0.99028) = 98,859.65 eHP

-New Chroma-
344% Power Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber
350 * (1 + 1.1 + 5.16 + 12.04) = 6,755 = 0.957477
960 / (1- 0.957477) = 22,576.02 eHP

By Comparison Nidus has 40k, Rhino breaks 100k, Mesa 32k, Nekros 60k, Trinity 50-80k. I think I'm getting the point across here.

Unless I misunderstood; this is a horrible thing to do to Chroma. He's always been a Solo Survival and Boss killer frame. "The community" did not shift it's interest, You did. Make note I'm not arguing damage here because I know from experience Chroma doesn't get to fully use his damage as eventually he can't afford to take hits in order to buff himself. Please consider this carefully as Eidolons make up 1% of this game.

@Himenoinu  Here you go.

[Himenoinu]

8 minutes ago, Bladefeather said:

That "destructive ability" is also getting nerfed, so there's no reason for him to pay in survivability.  Someone else in this thread already gave the numbers to prove it.

you mean this?

On 2/5/2018 at 1:09 PM, FelanGrey said:

with Steel Fiber, Armored Agility and 200% stenth:

- Now -  [(Base * Mods) * Vex Armor] =(350*2,55)*7=6247.5

- Would be - [Base * (Vex + Mods)] = 350*(7+1,55)=2992.5 (this is 47.9% of what he could now)

It's almost half than he can now, and with more mods/bufs the difference will grow.

We have a current setup that knocks off 95% of the incoming damage. Juggernaughty!

Then, we have aproblem is the fact that the armor doesn't scale in a linear fashion, so just the value itself isn't presenting a clear image:

• 6247.5 armor = 95.42% damage reduction
• 2992.5 armor = 90.89% damage reduction

So, with a 50% drop in armor value, you have an actual 4.5% drop in damage mitigation to the shields. Is this still a "life or death" nerf? 4.5%?

[Toran]

Ash:
With Naramon's Shadow Step gone, Ash is no valid invisibility frame any longer. With no synergy between Smoke Screen and Blade Storm, you have to decide between one of two mediocre skills (in comparison to much fitter frames in both aspects with less cumbersome mechanics). The coming Blade Storm change just won't cut it (pun intended). With most players, Ash will continue to collect dust (with some hardcore Ash-enthusiasts being the exception).

Banshee & Chroma & Ember:
The changes sound reasonable, with the Banshee change being the most exciting. I hope she will be as tactical as I imagine her to be. I don't know if the Chroma change will make that much difference for the eidolon hunt. If his damage buff is till the strongest in game, the difference should be 5 seconds (emptying 2 mags)... Busting dropships might become a thing of the past though. No more going number two while playing Ember, got it - there's a more effective warframe for elimination missions, anyway.

Mag & Volt:
Yay for buffs!

Zephyr:
The bird that doesn't fly.

Sooo boring, sooo annoying. Zephyr needs a complete rework, really. With the introduction of Bullet jump, Tailwind just feels like an upgraded version. And with the introduction of Titania, you wondered why Zephyr - the bird-themed frame - has no controlled flight, it just rockets... And whenever I see a Zephyr using Tornado in a Defense mission, I just feel like leaving at the next best opportunity. 
 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Toran

[ChromaUmbra]

1 minute ago, Himenoinu said:

you mean this?

We have a current setup that knocks off 95% of the incoming damage. Juggernaughty!

Then, we have aproblem is the fact that the armor doesn't scale in a linear fashion, so just the value itself isn't presenting a clear image:

• 6247.5 armor = 95.42% damage reduction
• 2992.5 armor = 90.89% damage reduction

So, with a 50% drop in armor value, you have an actual 4.5% drop in damage mitigation to the shields. Is this still a "life or death" nerf? 4.5%?

No, I mean the quote I just posted.  You call that 4.5%?

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

you mean this?

We have a current setup that knocks off 95% of the incoming damage. Juggernaughty!

Then, we have aproblem is the fact that the armor doesn't scale in a linear fashion, so just the value itself isn't presenting a clear image:

• 6247.5 armor = 95.42% damage reduction
• 2992.5 armor = 90.89% damage reduction

So, with a 50% drop in armor value, you have an actual 4.5% drop in damage mitigation to the shields. Is this still a "life or death" nerf? 4.5%?

A drop from 95% damage reduction to 90% damage reduction is a 100% increase in damage taken!

With 95% damage reduction 1000 damage is reduced to 50 damage taken.

With 90% damage reduction 1000 damage is reduced to 100 damage taken.

So while it may not sound as much, percentage point wise, it is relatively a great nerf to Chromas survivability

[Himenoinu]

23 minutes ago, Bladefeather said:

@Himenoinu  Here you go.

344% Power, Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber.
Armor Value = 8981.70
Damage Reduction 96.77%
Effective Health multiplier = 30.94

Now, Primed Vigor and Vitality lead to an HP value of 1980 (300*6.6).

1960/(1-0.9677) = 61300 eHP not 98859

Somehow the difference between calculations is quite big, but let's continue.
344% Power, Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber - post fix.
Armor Value = 4599.00
Damage Reduction 93.88%
Effective Health multiplier = 16.33

1960/(1-0.9388) = 32026 eHP as opposed to 22576

Both values are off in the opposite direction (the current is inflated by 50%+, the future is gutted by some 40%). Is there something I'm not getting in both cases? Are other formulas applied when calculating damage reduction and eHP?

Exaggerrations that can cause quite a bit of havoc when looking at numbers (be they intentional or by mistake). I'm not gonna fact check the rest of the statement regarding the other warframe's eHP.

[BrazilianJoe]

I like the changes overall. 

Zephyr: The tornado should be  scaled WIDER when buffed. Please rework the tornado FX to make it look more and more like a cat-5, with a very wide base as it grows.  Future augment should suck up enemy bullets.

Atlas: I would rather have a stack of rubble armor fall off a few seconds after being hit, rather than have them each have an individual duration. They last until hit. 

Mag: She is still super-effective against shields, but don't seem to do enough vs. pure flesh and armored enemies. Could her abilities have further secondary effects on the other nonshielded factions? Like dazing or doing a temporary damage reduction on Infested, and reduced accuracy on Grineer/ Armored enemies?

 

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

5 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

344% Power, Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber.
Armor Value = 8981.70
Damage Reduction 96.77%
Effective Health multiplier = 30.94

Now, Primed Vigor and Vitality lead to an HP value of 1980 (300*6.6).

1960/(1-0.9677) = 61300 eHP not 98859

Somehow the difference between calculations is quite big, but let's continue.
344% Power, Vitality + Primed Vigor + Steel Fiber - post fix.
Armor Value = 4599.00
Damage Reduction 93.88%
Effective Health multiplier = 16.33

1960/(1-0.9388) = 32026 eHP as opposed to 22576

Both values are off in the opposite direction (the current is inflated by 50%+, the future is gutted by some 40%). Is there something I'm not getting in both cases? Are other formulas applied when calculating damage reduction and eHP?

Exaggerrations that can cause quite a bit of havoc when looking at numbers (be they intentional or by mistake). I'm not gonna fact check the rest of the statement regarding the other warframe's eHP.

You are not factoring in elemental ward

[Himenoinu]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)Rasmus_ep88 said:

A drop from 95% damage reduction to 90% damage reduction is a 100% increase in damage taken!

With 95% damage reduction 1000 damage is reduced to 50 damage taken.

With 90% damage reduction 1000 damage is reduced to 100 damage taken.

So while it may not sound as much, percentage point wise, it is relatively a great nerf to Chromas survivability

So... you are losing just enough hitpoints to fuel fury while being sturdy enough to take a few more punches. It's not a threat, but a fine balance, if you ask me, between taking shields damage followed by health damage. Shield damage will boost your survivability and then, the little damage you take to your health will unleash all the dragons!

Even under constant bombards' fire you should be just fine, considering most other squishy frames with far less damage reduction can take a punch or 3. so it's a relatively great nerf compared to the previous version of Chroma? yes. Was it mention that Vex is not functioning as intended? yes. Is the new Chroma keeping tanking capabilities. yes. Were some people banking on the fact that Chroma will never get fixed? yes.

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Rasmus_ep88 said:

You are not factoring in elemental ward

Aham. so both values will be higher then, not just the pre-"nerf", right? I mean, post-"nerf" the elemental ward will take armor away from Chroma? :D

PS: Factoring in maxed EW for Chroma would lead to an insane 99%+ damage reduction. That's just broken! :D

 

Edit: I just had an epiphany!

With the damage reduction ner, one can no longer zarr/kulstar themselves into the peaks of damage boosts within seconds, because they might actually kill themselves! When you're talking about survivability, you're not afraid of the enemies, but yourselves! :D

Edited February 6, 2018 by Himenoinu