Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[DarthEevee]

I volunteer my account for the ember changes, i'm not particuarly happy about the WoF Nerf but you can use my account for testing, I have both ember and ember prime (latter being forma'd once so far)  

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by DarthEevee

[DarthEevee]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:27 PM, dataman88 said:

Yeah, no. You don't use "Ember is god in anything lower than level 30", because even Braton is king in anything lower than 30.

Let's say I bring her to level 70 sortie: What you're doing is basically making Ember sucks in first 10 secs, and then making her totally useless because ability radius shrinked.

ps: in case you miss the meta, nobody use Ember for damage in level 50 and above. They use Ember's WoF for CC with augment mod.

I use ember for both CC and damage on higher level content and don't have a problem playing either her normal or primed variant in that respect

[(XBOX)MadManArc]

So Ember/Ember Prime is nerfed?! That sucks.

[Karanak141]

So here are some of my thoughts and opinions on the listed changes

 

Ash

• The change is a decent one so can not complain about it though frankly i would rather see the ability done away with entirely at this point, have the animation used for fatal teleport since it would really suit it and have the 4 still use the targeting system but instead you toss a kunai out at the target(s) that after a few seconds from impact explode, have the target system when used in the air extremely slows down your movement so you can target what you need to toss out a blanket of kunai

Atlas

• Can not wait to play with these changes, look like a great step in the right direct for the rock frame

Banshee

• I understand why they made this change but it still keeps banshee as a 4bot so banshee needs a deeper look into for her entire kit to be satisfying

Chroma

• The Scream change is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction, yeah it is useful to not be slowed down by the ability use but the problem for the ability still remains, the damage and effect of it is very lackluster which makes it underwhelming to use on both the 1 and 4. The ability is supposed to represent a dragons breath kind of thing if i am not mistaken so my suggestion is to make each element of the scream have its own effect instead of just using the status effects cause by the standard elements in game, have fire melt  through things the longer it is held on a target, cold cause targets to freeze solid then shatter, toxic causes a disease that makes enemies to cough/sneeze/puke making them unable to do certain actions depending as well as a chance for the disease to spread from it,electric is the only one that does the same thing though the effect needs to be upped to match the other 3 in terms of satisfying use. The vex armor change was expected and the aura add on is nice

Ember

• Ember changes were also expected but she needs a full kit pass at this point she is a 4bot like Banshee and her other abilities are just not satisfying to use let alone strong unless in certain niche cases(plains infested event)

Gara

• Great change to make her stronger at high level play so can't wait for this to hit live

Mag

• Good QoL change more so for Crush which is her underwhelming ability but i think the shards mechanic needs to be expanded on more for her since that is a very interesting but hard to use mechanic currently

Volt

• Hard to say on this change, it looks good on paper but until it hits live then cant really tell how good this will be. But interesting none the less

Zephyr 

• Really interested to see how these changes play out, don't have much to add till the changes are in hand to play with and see if she becomes more satisfying to use

[(XBOX)NeutralSilence]

1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

I did not *see* it was you, due to the simple fact that... no offense, but this topic is flooded.

Considering "starting anything " - same as toward Regiampiero - please consider that Mag already is on a breaking point and does ludicrous amount of gear damage, those buffs will clean up some of the negatives, but asking for more is also inviting for Nerfs.

(And she is among Frames like Nekros and Harrow that are also as strong as the loadout is).

I just don't see how trying to make her better than a one-trick pony is asking for her to get nerfed. Her only solid ability is Magnetize. Everything other ability she has either works against it (Pull) or doesn't help it in any significant way (Polarize/Crush). All you need is to build for range/strength, get a good projectile weapon and your good to go. Just stand around casting Magnetize and shooting in bubbles is not good design for a  magnetic Frame. Other Frames do almost every single thing she can do, but better. Frames need diversity, a reason to use over others. Mag has none other than to mabye, just mabye kill bosses that don't have invincibility frames. (which are only about a handful are slowly decreasing as DE updates bosses.)

[StormBotW23]

Ember's 4th got similar change as Valkyr's. I guess we will have to use it the same way...

[FelanGrey]

Just want to suggest some changes for WoF that wouldn't hurt Ember too much but would make her less AFK.

For now WoF, especially with Firequake, is her way to survive on higher lvl missions. So decreasing her range just ruin all.

I don't see problem in fast killing on low lvl missions (who don't want to spend time on it - would find the fastest way to deal with it), only AFK is problem and here is my solution:

Make her WoF have a time limit about 15sec with base duration. For first 5 sec she can't recast WoF and it wouldn't drain energy, after - she would be able to recast it (with holding down 4 or turn off by tapping 4) and WoF start a percentage counting with energy drain (with base efficiency: on 0% - 3 energy/sec; on 100% - 6 energy/sec). As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% during the remaining time (with less duration you'll have faster percentage counting; more duration - slower percentage counting), the ability energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double. This damage grow wouldn't help on high level, only counterbalance to increasing energy drain.
For damage I suggest to decrease it а bit and add a percent of the main target's maximum health and shields. This change wouldn't help to much against high lvl armored enemies, but she could control them with fire status or Firequake to deal with them other way.

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by FelanGrey

[Macalar]

"Ember for life" player here.

I welcome the changes to World on Fire as I'd prefer to use this ability more actively rather than having it always on.

But please also consider reworking Fireball and Fire Blast. Currently, I only use Fireball for breaking stuff on the floor such as traps, pulse mines, infested slime, etc. I never use Fire Blast for anything, and I've honestly tried to find uses for this ability. Its damage is negligible, and Accelerant provides better crowd control.

I'd love to see some interactions between Ember's abilities, similar to what you did with Atlas.

Please also consider changing the mechanics that allow enemies to become completely immune to Heat damage, such as Fire Eximus auras on high level enemies, or Proto Shields combined with Elemental Enhancement sortie mod (apparently these resistances stack additively). Ember's powers do Heat damage, and her toolkit encourages players to mod their weapons for Heat damage. It is not fun when you suddenly encounter a pack of enemies that fully ignore your damage. Make it so that the total resistance to any particular element cannot exceed 75%. Another option would be to let Ember change her damage type (and the element of her Accelerant vulnerability debuff) by changing her Energy Color, similar to how it works for Chroma.

[(XBOX)FawnKinkajou27]

Will the update drop on the same day for consoles too, or will we have to wait a couple of weeks?

[Trichouette]

Il y a 1 heure, Bladefeather a dit :

That doesn't change the fact that his tanking capabilities will be worse than any other tank frame after this.  And no, I'm not afraid of myself.  I don't use either of those weapons because self-damage isn't how I like to play.  If the self damage is the problem, why not remove that instead to avoid screwing over those who don't use it?

I guess you didn't read my post after all or rather you prefer to stay blind about how that "fix" is not going to change THAT much.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Trichouette

[Adagio_Rose]

So, Ember gets nerfed, Volt fandboys get a mediocre damage buff and reduced CC, and overall the changes to other warframes are... decent?

[BornWithTeeth]

A quick reminder to everyone that Octavia exists, while DE are nerfing Ember.

 

 

 

 

 

What.

[(XBOX)NeutralSilence]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

A quick reminder to everyone that Octavia exists, while DE are nerfing Ember.

 

 

 

 

 

What.

Blows your mind doesn't it?

[BornWithTeeth]

“Warframes shouldn’t be effortlessly good at soloing high levels!”

Octavia.

“An ability shouldn’t combine massive damage with long range and powerful CC!”

Octavia.

“A Warframe’s abilities shouldn’t just play the game for you!”

Octavia.

“At high levels with a ‘caster’ type Warframe, you should need to be constantly in motion, watching your back!”

Octavia.

[Darkvramp]

can this get updated with the news stuff that was the devs twitter, atlas works alot differently now with a new petrify mechanic......

[Adagio_Rose]

56 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

“Warframes shouldn’t be effortlessly good at soloing high levels!”

Octavia.

“An ability shouldn’t combine massive damage with long range and powerful CC!”

Octavia.

“A Warframe’s abilities shouldn’t just play the game for you!”

Octavia.

“At high levels with a ‘caster’ type Warframe, you should need to be constantly in motion, watching your back!”

Octavia.

Ahh but Octavia isn't a caster frame, she's the best invisibility frame, her other abilities just make her better at being unseen.

[Aikurisu]

I personally like a lot of the changes.  It makes me want to return to frames like Mag and Volt, who I loved previously, but felt they weren't my best performers.

Ash's ult change really doesn't fix the ongoing issue that his ult nerf from way back still makes it virtually useless in team play.  Normally the game is too fast paced to take advantage of it even with solo play; any decently modded weapon can outshine it in an instant.  If you're with allies those precious seconds you take to tag enemies are normally wasted because anyone with some skill would have cleaned at least half the room by the time you activate the ult anyway.  So... back to the drawing board?

Don't get me wrong.  I like the concept of being able to opt out of the animations personally.  It's a good step in the right direction but the tagging phase has to go.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Adagio_Rose said:

Ahh but Octavia isn't a caster frame, she's the best invisibility frame, her other abilities just make her better at being unseen.

By CC’ing everything in the room and killing with scaling damage, yes. After all, they can’t see her if they’re all dead.

[Adagio_Rose]

4 minutes ago, Aikurisu said:

I personally like a lot of the changes.  It makes me want to return to frames like Mag and Volt, who I loved previously, but felt they weren't my best performers.

Ash's ult change really doesn't fix the ongoing issue that his ult nerf from way back still makes it virtually useless in team play.  Normally the game is too fast paced to take advantage of it even with solo play; any decently modded weapon can outshine it in an instant.  If you're with allies those precious seconds you take to tag enemies are normally wasted because anyone with some skill would have cleaned at least half the room by the time you activate the ult anyway.  So... back to the drawing board?

Don't get me wrong.  I like the concept of being able to opt out of the animations personally.  It's a good step in the right direction but the tagging phase has to go.

Or you could give up on Ash altogether, arguably Loki and Octy outshine Ash in literally every area, including solo and party play. Reworking Ash's ult isn't going to make him more played or even better, just like the cancer that is Volt.

:Edit: I forgot that Loki is actually just a better Ash, irradiating disarm makes him a CC beast that's never seen by the enemy.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Adagio_Rose
Additions and clarity

[S2_Magitech]

I'm not thrilled with the nerf to Ember. In my experience, the fun part of ember isn't just "melting enemies" (although that is REALLY satisfying.) I play ember at higher levels, using a build based around utilizing Flash Accelerant effectively. Yes, I simply turn on her 4, but with my play style, I want to keep high level enemies at the edge of Accelerant range, while positioning myself strategically around my allies to give them the damage buff. By nerfing the range so heavily, you are forcing me to get in close with enemies that can and will simply one shot me, even with mods increasing my armor and health.

[Rhekemi]

Awfully late to the party, I know, but I hadn't had time to organize my many thoughts for Ember until now. 

Ember Rework Suggestions:

New Passive

Spoiler

 

Cauterize

Ember is empowered by flames. Any time Ember successfully kills X enemies with an ability (1, 3 and 4), X% of all status types currently inflicted on her are removed. Additionally, Ember regenerates X% of her total Health every time this passive triggers.

Let’s say the target enemy # is 10, the % of health restored is 10%, and the % of status types/damage cleared is 25%.

Rationale for change: Her old passive was Ignition. 35% ability strength when suffering a heat proc not only encourages and enforces the power strength over survivability play style that WoF requires, it is incredibly situational and not useful when facing certain factions until specialized units attack (those that inflict fire procs). 

Her passive (all passives, in fact) should be universally useful. Nekros, Mesa, and Excalibur’s passives are good examples of passives that enrich their core gameplay and abilities without being too situational to be of any real benefit.

Unlike other Warframe, weapon, and augment passives, her old passive gives the player no control. She has to wait until an enemy inflicts a fire proc. That’s counterintuitive. 

These changes would give her more survivability and a health buff that would be useful in all scenarios, while not encouraging her to kill things any less.

 

 

Suggested Sprint Speed buff for Ember vanilla and Ember Prime:

Spoiler

1.15 (bumped up from 1.1) 

Rationale for change: Improved movement speed is one way to improve survivability without increasing her base health, shields, or armor stats.

1

Cancelation Synergy:

Spoiler

 

With the existing proposed changes for WoF in mind, some synergy might also help.

Canceling World on Fire after it’s been active for 1 to 7 seconds grants 75% more heat damage per to Ember’s next cast of Fireball or Fire Blast. 

Casting and canceling WoF without casting Fireball or Fire Blast will simply stack the bonus heat damage in a counter. Can stack up to 5 times for a total of 300% more bonus damage. (Bonus is affected by ability strength mods??)

Rationale for change: Encourages toggling between abilities and synergy. WoF essentially buffs her other offensive casts. Ember channels all the heat and energy from the interrupted WoF into Fireball or Fire Blast. 

 

 

Fire Blast Change Suggestions:

Spoiler

 

Damage is now inflicted on any enemies standing within the ring, not just those coming into contact with the ring. The outermost parts/the actual ring inflict the most damage, while the inside (with no fire but extreme heat) inflicts 60% less of the ring’s damage.

Can be buffed by WoF cancellation as explained above.

 

Fire Blast Augment Suggestion:

Spoiler

 

Purge (or Purify) 

Ember and Allies standing within the ring are purged of X% of all status effects. 

 

 

[Aikurisu]

7 minutes ago, Adagio_Rose said:

Or you could give up on Ash altogether, arguably Loki and Octy outshine Ash in literally every area, including solo and party play. Reworking Ash's ult isn't going to make him more played or even better, just like the cancer that is Volt.

:Edit: I forgot that Loki is actually just a better Ash, irradiating disarm makes him a CC beast that's never seen by the enemy.

lol, if I wanted to travel down easy street, I would play Loki.  To me, he's an overused frame with the ugliest helmet designs known to man.  Sure, the same can be said for most of Ash's helmet designs but at least he's not masquerading as a totem pole.  Yeah, I'm shallow.  I like the look of my frames.  That and I'm happy enough with Ash's other skills because they all have their uses.

His 1st can strip armour altogether with the aug.  His 2nd, sure, doesn't last as long as Loki's, but I prefer the AoE stun and his invisibility animation is far less disorientating, imho.

As for his 3rd, give it the aug mod and no one lives.  Basically, I like to think Ash is meant for taking out high risk targets quickly and efficiently.  Not Loki.

[Himenoinu]

1 hour ago, FelanGrey said:

Just want to suggest some changes for WoF that wouldn't hurt Ember too much but would make her less AFK.

For now WoF, especially with Firequake, is her way to survive on higher lvl missions. So decreasing her range just ruin all.

I don't see problem in fast killing on low lvl missions (who don't want to spend time on it - would find the fastest way to deal with it), only AFK is problem and here is my solution:.

 

Well, I guess you can't find a solution to a problem you can't see. Killing enemies before anyone sees them was part of the problem, not just the skill encouraging a brain-afk playstyle in low level and static missions.

The solution that was found for Banshee could've worked for Ember too. A WoF with full range CC and a damage output that diminishes exponentially with distance.

Accelerant could be a skill that increases the flames' intensity (range and damage), halves the enemies's resistance to heat or applies a corrosive debuff to enemies already burning. It would be a placeable (to avoid getting undesired results in low level area). That is, if used during WoF, it would corrode, if used before it, or before firing a heat weapon it would...prime the enemies for bbq.

Builds made around range and something would yield a 40m radius WoF with a 10m radius infernal center, when coupled with Accelerant, while having only a 5/20 m effective range of WoF.

The different effect generated by accelerant would be an incentive to toggle WoF in high level missions, it would help Ember stay relevant in defense/interception missions and ensure her survivability.

[UrielColtan]

4 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

Uriel, you prove yet again that you can run a political career with your slick abilities of changing the context and cherry picking information.

If you can not comprehend why people ask why is a MR 4 melee (aka no ammo or energy required) weapon that has high range (higher than WoF for reference), almost no build costs (next to other weapons in the meta) and used with a macro in order to delete enemies all the way up to sorties is allowed (and abused), yet some AoE frames are getting nerfed - by all means, it is your personal freedom to misplace "it feels okay" with "it is okay"
 

So like I said, you are arguing against the best melee in the game for being the best melee meta, and disregarding the complaint about meta mods like Maiming strike that was being responded to.

I mean, where does it end?  Orthos Prime has comparable range and isn't exactly slow. Something like that will just be next, and so on and so on as the handful of meta lords you are complaining about just move to the next best thing or best new thing, and then you start calling the weapons cancer all over again.

I get that you don't like enemies who get hit to die, I mean pillow fights are fun and all,  but not so much when you are one guy against a hoarde of dudes with hammers and AOE procs of their own.

Macro? That's some outside application that can be used for any weapon, the weapon does not come with it. Though last I checked, a macro required at least a gradual input or two, as opposed to none at all.

Mastery rank 4?

How many of them or single digit ranks in general are going to have the likes of rare mods like Bloodrush, Berserker, Drifting Contact or Weepings Wounds, let alone the Primed mods, let alone all of these in their inventory simultaneously? Because you are actually complaining about people using those mods in meta builds, try as you might right now to downplay this fact. I see lower ranks who may opt to use a Atterrax, but they aren't exactly using any great build, as they can be outperformed with a mere lackluster Dual Ether Sword with proper mods, and no macro. Maybe(Obviously) if enough were using the metabuilds, they could do much much better with the weapon, but most apparently don't have them.

Low rank can barely even acquire any of these mods,  nor credits, endo and forma for half of these particular mods. Even if it were an actual big issue, the weapon's mastery rank can just be raised. 

Like what is happening with the firearms.

Edited February 7, 2018 by UrielColtan

[Adagio_Rose]

1 minute ago, Aikurisu said:

lol, if I wanted to travel down easy street, I would play Loki.  To me, he's an overused frame with the ugliest helmet designs known to man.  Sure, the same can be said for most of Ash's helmet designs but at least he's not masquerading as a totem pole.  Yeah, I'm shallow.  I like the look of my frames.  That and I'm happy enough with Ash's other skills because they all have their uses.

His 1st can strip armour altogether with the aug.  His 2nd, sure, doesn't last as long as Loki's, but I prefer the AoE stun and his invisibility animation is far less disorientating, imho.

As for his 3rd, give it the aug mod and no one lives.  Basically, I like to think Ash is meant for taking out high risk targets quickly and efficiently.  Not Loki.

Well if you want to give up two slots for augment mods that could be used better by increasing duration or range, sure! Ash is great. but his abilities don't actually take out the targets especially high risk targets. That's what your actual weapons are for. Fashion-frame is all well and good but no. Ash isn't actually that good, Loki needs at most one aug mod, and that's only if you want to use irradiating disarm. You get so much more use out of all of Loki's kit where Ash is purely situational. Also Safeguard switch makes allies immortal. Loki is a better frame hands down despite the hideous looks.