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Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited


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8 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

That would make sense, now that you mention it.

Yeah, it should do the same thing as his 1 does and electrify the shield. So if you have all six shields you can have down you can get them all at once and spend 100 energy at base shocking them instead of 25 each going up to 150. Just save a little energy that way.

P.S. also it's annoying asf his speed Augment breaks Corpus windows so that needs to be fixed. 

Edited by (PS4)purpleskullgamin
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Il y a 9 heures, (Xbox One)Harbinger XK5 a dit :

Nerf's in general are absolutely pointless, it's a PVE Game not PVP, why do they need to make us weaker against AI

And this is why Warframe can't have an endgame:

Because the community is full of peoples who don't understand that a PVE game HAVE to be balanced, perhaps even more than a PVP game, since it's more about theorycrafting and less about pure player skill.

You can't put any sort of endgame if you give tools that can cheese any type of enemy to the players.

Edited by Darkduprey
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6 minutes ago, Darkduprey said:

And this is why Warframe can't have an endgame:

Because the community is full of peoples how don't understand that a PVE game HAVE to be balanced, perhaps even more than a PVP game, since it's more about theorycrafting and less about pure player skill.

You can't put any sort of endgame if you give tools that can cheese any type of enemy to the players.

I agree completely :D GW1 was offering the constant challenge by having either minor or major changes to a lot of the skills that were the meta in both pve and pvp or to the mobs that were suffering from them and the community was always fine-tunning their builds to continue hurting those mobs even worse. To the point where the devs started taking our builds and givin' them to the mobs (which wouldn't hurt if it would be used here too :D)

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General comment
Based on previous frame reworks, my conclusion is that DE doesn't like to remove/change animations, ability effects and ability icon. My comments and suggestions are mostly with that in mind.
I focused on Mag, Zephyr and a bit on Atlas.

Ash
Introduced change is obviously a good one. I got into this game because of Ash and he used to be my frame for everything - Sorties, focus farm, fun... Now I simply prefer other frames - not because he is bad, but because I have more fun with some other frames.
 

Atlas
Petrify should be able to quick cast or toggle. Quick cast (tap the ability key) does 4 ability ticks in 1 second and petrifies nearby enemies, while slows enemies further away. Quick cast also does all the buffing introduced in workshop. Toggle (hold ability key a bit longer) does exactly the same as proposed. Petrify quick cast would enable more fluid play style.

Spoiler

This way, Atlas would have a better synergy between abilities, because you want to use quick buff/cc then use your weapons, rather then move slowly while able to only punch enemies. Even the video showing the change you have on this post uses 'quick' cast to petrify bulwark. Think of it as a Harrow or Inaros 1. You hit it and then use weapons (or landslide) to kill CC'd enemies. You can still use toggled Petrify with landslide if you prefer that play style, but quick cast would allow you to use your weapons also, while preserving your energy.

Other than that, Bulwark and Rumblers probably need a rework, but looks like you want to focus on Petrify, so we'll leave it as is.

 

Banshee
Looks good. Augment changes ability to make Banshee mobile. Great! (No more AFK Meso farming on Io for me)


Chroma
I never understood Chroma. Based on that, Chroma will hopefully be replaceable with some other frame for hunting down a Teralyst.  :P (sorry Chroma mains)


Ember
Make an augment for WoF that will keep knocking down enemies in original range of the cast while damage range shrinks as you introduced.

 

Mag
Increased energy pool - great! Buffed shards - great! Mag 1, 2 and 3 basically untouched - great, because those are great abilities!

Crush - still a long, static, sitting duck animation that does damage to low level enemies and is terribly short CC to be used as a tool.
Crush needs to be two-part ability:
1. On cast: Mag lifts enemies in the air and creates 'crush zone' where enemies are floating in the air. This CC has a duration and range.
2. On recast or when expired: Mag crushes the enemies in crush zone dealing damage (lower than current damage, because it is heavy CC ability now)
No shields/overshields mambo jumbo. Polarize already does that. Mag can use Pull to get enemies from outside of 'crush zone' inside. One more synergy there ;) 

Spoiler

Also, if you need some more synergy, Crush can have a really small base range, but also affects Polarized enemies. This way you would build for duration, and cast 3 then 4 to polarize/lift/crush a lot of enemies. Or you can build for range and then pull enemies to Crush zone. The main idea is to make Crush a heavy CC ability and enable Mag survive high lvl content. In the end, enemies don't need to float, they can be slowed meaning she started crushing them. I just used the floating animation that is already in the game.

Augment is being reworked either way, this just creates more possibilities.

Spoiler

Augments like: Killing enemies in Crush zone adds overshields. Damage done to enemies in Crush zone is spread to all enemies in Crush zone. Crush duration is increased with every kill in Crush zone. Crush damage is higher with every enemy in Crush zone ....

As you can see, almost all ideas would make a great synergy between Pull and Crush - More enemies in Crush zone = More damage or some other benefit.


Volt
I guess this is good. :D I use Volt’s 4 only to CC enemies and to add overshields from the augment. If they both work the same, great! :)


Zephyr

Combined Tail Wind and Dive bomb - great! Charge Tail Wind to hover in the air? - WOW great! (I hope air glide mods will increase duration as well)

Air Burst - Please don't. Update to Tail Wind hover makes Zephyr the queen of Plains. She doesn't need any ragdoll abilities and I'll explain why:
With introduction of hover, she becomes the 'watch eye' on Plains. Air Burst will make her a nuker. This is in her 'air' theme, but it is not in synergy with other abilities. Making Tornados taller is not a synergy, it's a gimmick. You can use it or not, and when you use it, it is for fun, not because you need to. I would introduce more synergy type of ability:

'Air Compression' is Zephyr's new second ability. Zephyr compresses the air in front of her. All enemies in front of it are outlined with Zephyr energy color. Zephyr does modified damage to outlined enemies, because shooting through Air Compression that is in front of her makes shots more deadly.
This ability would look similar to Odonata’s Energy Shell, or Volt’s carried Electric Shield, but with ‘wind’ or ‘air’ feel. Zephyr can see clearly her pray through compressed air like eagle sees its pray. This would look like zoom with Argonak. Ability needs to be range-independent, since it will be used to cover large distances on the Plains. That is also why enemies are outlined only in front of you (watched through Air Compression), not everywhere (Maybe the line of sight of Air Compression can be affected by range mods, like Mesa's Peacemaker). Not to mention, this would hopefully make Zephyr alternative for Chroma in Eidolon hunt.

Turbulence is a great ability that will protect Zephyr from any incoming missiles. Great synergy with Tail Wind hover! Augment makes almost any weapon act as a sniper, double synergy, gj! These first three abilities synergy is great, now we only need a setup that will enable you to take down enemies one by one from above, so let's see what we can do:

Tornado - What is the use case of Tornados following where you aim? What is the use case of making them taller with Air Burst?
What I suggest: Zephyr casts one wide Tornado. Enemies trapped inside of tornado are slowed by a large percent. Or enemies are spinning around their Z-axe, so you can aim for headshots. Tornado can be recast to explode and ragdoll all enemies that were inside. Potentially, percentage of damage done to enemy can spread out to all enemies in Tornado, though this feature it is not necessary.
Tornado needs to be clear enough to see through it and shoot the enemies from outside of it. Air Compression helps here a lot. Luckily, we have the ability in game that is similar - Limbo’s Cataclysm. Tornado would of course be cylinder, but would act similar regarding ability animation.
Tornado Augment would make recasting Tornado implode instead of explode and bring all enemies in tornado to the center of tornado. And then you can nuke them with Lens if you don't like playing with snipers.

With all changes I suggested, Zephyr would become the Queen of Plains and her play style would be something in the lines of:
Start a bounty. Tail Wind to Excursion area. Charge Tail Wind to hover above. Activate Turbulence and Air Compression for protection/buff/map awareness. Cast Tornado on area where enemies are falling and take them down one by one, or aim the strongest one and kill all of them if damage percentage is spread inside Tornado. Or cast Tornado on defense objective, or so much more… <3

The most important update to Zephyr: Make a sexy Zephyr deluxe skin! She is utterly ugly and it is a great turnoff for me to use her and I believe there are quite a lot of players like me. We need a bit of Saryn in Zephyr to make her attractive.

 

I hope these ideas are worth considering and I hope you had fun reading them. Also, I can't wait to try out all these changes to frames as well as to weapons when they become live! Tnx for this great game and gl DE

Edited by UjaAca
Clarification
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Is the Chroma a dragon or a mouse? Come to say that the error lasted 2 years and only now have realized enough to change ridiculously, because mathematically it will be a waste compared to now. I stop playing on time. The company is treating the players as idiots who have useless time to lose. I have almost 700 hours of play. Chroma was my 2nd warframe built of 3 that I have with this game time. It's fair to be a dragon. The mathematician who put the calculation in this way did not know that the order of factors changes the product? I'm sorry to the players.

If they want to correct the problem of the teralyst and not of the chroma put limitador of damage in the hits that it takes but that still appear high numbers with the chroma and do not mecham in the verx armor.

That justification does not make any sense.

 

 

 

Edited by Samuell_Henrique
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Chroma: saw that nerf coming. As for his one, I still see little incentive to use it. Perhaps use that ability to switch between different elements, similar to quiver? Spectral Scream usually suffer when building for his 2 and 3 and the same goes for his 4. I understand that he will be looked at at a later date, just some food for thought.

My number one problem with the ember change is how her augment works. The augment is used primarily for the CC, as we all know, and is a very potent one at that. Halving her range and increasing the cost will hurt this augment immensely. Perhaps we could change the augment, so it keeps max range, and does low damage. Maybe remove the increased cost while it’s equiped too I don’t know. What I think is that it will keep the augment useful while still not being a ‘kill everything and everyone who is below level 30’ type of frame. 

Although, as Tactical Potato said in a recent video, nerfing frames will only result in players finding other ways to bypass the grind. Ultimately, if it was up to me, I would reduce the grind further. I’m not saying I don’t appreciate the changes for the quills, I’m just saying that maybe we need more.

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I like that Banshees 4 gets some changes but personaly i think that the abilitiy should be changed in general.

So what i mean is: Make Sound Quake do the one hit thing you planing on adding to its augment normaly. Then the augment could for example let the stagger effect stay longer the more enemies where hit by the blast. Kinda like you did with Gaara now. If thats to strong make it reduce the range aswell.

Im suggesting this because i think the normal stationary Sound Quake is really bad and is not gonna be used without the augment. Basicly like it is now. So every ability should be usefull without an augment and just get modified in a way that add a little something special on top. 

Good examples are Nidus Larva Augment. Its just great! The base version is usefull and the augment just makes it even more fun and special to use.

Thats what id like to see happening to Banshee now and maybe even some other Warframes

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While we won't be able to test ember's rework until it is released, a lot of people myself included are concerned about the WOF rework and ember's survivability.

Just for info, here is the proposed rework as of now.

World On Fire - 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.

Here is my suggestion. While scaling from 0 to 100, how about add an ability like immolate. What I mean is while WOF is essentially powering up, Ember's body is also heating up as well. at 100%, immolate works like a flame shield that blocks/melts a percentage of bullets fired at her. It would work essentially like zephyr's turbulence minus the reflecting of bullets. This would give her some survivability without being OP.

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1 hour ago, Samuell_Henrique said:

If they want to correct the problem of the teralyst and not of the chroma put limitador of damage in the hits that it takes but that still appear high numbers with the chroma and do not mecham in the verx armor.

No more of that please. Continuos mobs buffs and invincibility mechanics added to not upset the players who don't like changes brought no end of problems, as we can see. More damage limitators, more mobs scaling, just to avoid a fix that was obviously going to hit. Make Chroma better, yes. Give the toggle option, make the other elemental effects more desireable... wait! nevermind that, 'cause a good part of the community just wants a 1-button-win juggernaut anyway, preferably with a macro attached, so they can do something else while the game play itself.

Also also, always threatening to quit, to stop supporting, to throw the computer through your bedroom's window won't help make the game more enjoyable. Lastly 700 hours of play and 3 frames is supposed to mean?! I have 900 hours, some 12+ frames and I can say that while I do have my favorites, I enjoy most of the warframes, Banshee not so much, as her low-to-mid level playstyle is just watch-the-clock-to-prevent-afk-punishment (same applies to Equinox's and Ember). I tried Chroma and after also watching vids about how you should hurt yourself to be a dragon I just dumped him (the mechanic would make sense, but the way players seem to use the self-damage skills is always an abuse).

If we look at Valkyr's story, the warframes are not god-like creatures. Hell! Even Alad V's trailer depicts a group of 4 good warframes being at the brink of defeat for a moment.

 

Make the fights more rewarding and desireable, by rethinking the loot tables. Give the enemies a brain, not a bunker t-shirt. Put, if need be a story behind the changes (how, by some tech stolen from Corpus the Grineer have found better means of warframe or Lotus knows what!). And with the mobs changes coming gradually (as they get smarter, not tougher) have the warframes also getting more fit for the new style of conflict (and if that mean changes, then let'em change). You can't fix the monsters being dumb and strong in the game if the warframes are designed with the same traits in mind.

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Just a quick forum visit on my thoughts about the potential reworks. 

-Ash: yes

-Banshee: The new change kind of gets rid of her #4's "I'm a deadly boom box" which was pretty iconic. My suggestion would be that Banshee's #4 would still immobilize her, but it would allow players to focus damage in the direction they're aiming. Meanwhile, a sonic reverberation shakes the ground and causes enemies to stumble. This would work like Mesa's #4, but with more CC. (Maybe even add an Augment that when Banshee's #4 is active, enemies hit by her power are able to be seen through walls for .3 sec.) 

-Atlas: Yes, this was long overdue. 

-Zephyr: Yes, also long overdue. The one thing she still would need is a strafe/bombing run power. (Maybe a Turbulence Augment?) 

-Volt: yes 

-Ember: Hmm... I guess this could work, but her survivability comes solely from World on Fire, deactivating it usually means death. She's in a good place now, but needs to be able do more damage at higher levels. The only way I can see this working is by reducing her activation energy costs for her other powers. If you take the "Fire"out of "Fire Chicken" all you're left with is "Chicken". 

-Chroma: Finally, Chroma... Just up the damage on his #1 and reduce the damage percentage values added by his Vex Armor. I don't understand the thinking behind his kit's current or future implementation... 

My 2 cents... Please do keep up the good work DE! 

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Don't really agree with people thinking that the ember change only shift the power of the ability, as due to the nature of the radius affecting the area, halving it will actually quarter the area affected, which doesn't really equal out with doubling the damage.

Edited by FeliXtreme
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19 hours ago, Trichouette said:

I guess you didn't read my post after all or rather you prefer to stay blind about how that "fix" is not going to change THAT much.

I guess you didn't read all the math people have been giving that shows his ehp dropping to 1/5th of what it is now.

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Any way we could have Atlas' petrify be an instantly casted ability which radiates outward like Harrow's Condemn or Frost's Ice Wave?

 

Also I think Ember still needs much more of a rework to become viable against late game content. Nova is pretty much a direct upgrade from Ember's originally intended purpose.

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4 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

No more of that please. Continuos mobs buffs and invincibility mechanics added to not upset the players who don't like changes brought no end of problems, as we can see. More damage limitators, more mobs scaling, just to avoid a fix that was obviously going to hit. Make Chroma better, yes. Give the toggle option, make the other elemental effects more desireable... wait! nevermind that, 'cause a good part of the community just wants a 1-button-win juggernaut anyway, preferably with a macro attached, so they can do something else while the game play itself.

Also also, always threatening to quit, to stop supporting, to throw the computer through your bedroom's window won't help make the game more enjoyable. Lastly 700 hours of play and 3 frames is supposed to mean?! I have 900 hours, some 12+ frames and I can say that while I do have my favorites, I enjoy most of the warframes, Banshee not so much, as her low-to-mid level playstyle is just watch-the-clock-to-prevent-afk-punishment (same applies to Equinox's and Ember). I tried Chroma and after also watching vids about how you should hurt yourself to be a dragon I just dumped him (the mechanic would make sense, but the way players seem to use the self-damage skills is always an abuse).

If we look at Valkyr's story, the warframes are not god-like creatures. Hell! Even Alad V's trailer depicts a group of 4 good warframes being at the brink of defeat for a moment.

 

Make the fights more rewarding and desireable, by rethinking the loot tables. Give the enemies a brain, not a bunker t-shirt. Put, if need be a story behind the changes (how, by some tech stolen from Corpus the Grineer have found better means of warframe or Lotus knows what!). And with the mobs changes coming gradually (as they get smarter, not tougher) have the warframes also getting more fit for the new style of conflict (and if that mean changes, then let'em change). You can't fix the monsters being dumb and strong in the game if the warframes are designed with the same traits in mind.

I actually agree with you 100% here.  If they did something like that, I probably wouldn't mind the nerfs at all.  But they aren't doing any of that, so my point still stands.

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As far as killing enemies through walls and before squad mates can see them, essentially ruining everyone's fun, It seems like Equinox and Nova are just as much of an issue as Banshee and Ember. Why do powers go through walls? Why do they have to go through walls at all? Why and how is that even a thing? It's the worst.

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I just want to say I'm still not a fan of this ember nerf.  Here's the problem... the "fun" factor you're calculating for is only concerning "new" players.  The base game relies upon grind in order to make the business model work.  In order to make the players strive to work through the grind, they need some short cuts to make the grind a little easier on them or they want to tear their hair out.

 

I can understand why players under MR 10 would be annoyed with Ember WoF max range build, I was at one point... but you come to appreciate it over time once you figure out things like bullet jumping and not mashing melee through everything and start thinking about strategy and using multiple frames for different reasons... then you're like "oh, that's what ember is for, clearing crappy missions everyone has done a million times on tilesets I can run in my sleep now".  

 

Plus this now sets the precedent for every similar "lazy" frame build to take a hit... banshee, octavia, etc.  Active play styles are important... I'm a full on Nidus main player focussed on raw damage output with almost every frame in the game after not even 2 months of play time because i'm psycho like that, but suffice to say, it's a SUPER active playstyle.  And I love it... but... sometimes I'm just like "well I just need to farm several thousand oxium in a couple of hours.  How should I do it?" And the answer is Ember... only not anymore.  Some nerfs I can get behind, for example the MR 19 test is harsh if you don't have a banshee and a redeemer, but I can get behind it on the validation that "ok, it's a big shotgun", and it makes banshee kind of special to have for that eye gougingly awful test, which is like, OK, exploit is still there, but it's just not as blatant" which is nice.  I think it's fun to have exploits be a little hard to find and come by since it keeps players from min maxing the game to death, but they need to still be there.  

This ember nerf... it's... not the right direction imho.  There is a problem there, yes, but this isn't the right solution.

Ember is my farmer frame for knocking out missions.  Taking that away from her means A) there is no replacement frame that can do this anywhere near as well, and B) makes her kind of useless since there are other frames that will do her new job better unless you buff her numbers to a stupid extent.

My suggestion on the ember issue, since I'm complaining so much is the following:

Have it shrink and do damage based on A) the speed at which she moves and time she has been moving and B) level of enemies caught in flame, dropping off at higher levels.  This does the following:  I can still farm with her if I park her in a spot near some good spawns.  It slows the mass extinction meaning, you can still be lazy with ember to clear an execution mission, but it's going to take longer now, and other players will have the chance to move ahead of you, meaning they can still have fun and you can still clear.  This solves the issue as I see it.  It would suck, but it would still allow ember to fill her current role and it would scale with higher level content because squishy ember can't stay in one place while bombard rockets are shooting at her, causing her to have to run a lot more, making her still viable for higher content as sustained DPS rather than insta kill.

 

 

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I mean, the Ember nerf is honestly not needed in my opinion... The reason is I feel she does her job just fine already. She's meant to take down low armored (of course that means low level) targets. While people do wreck everything 30 and under, it's still what I always though she was meant for. What fire was meant for at least...

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Can we pretty please stop nerfing frames because people complain about kill counts and other arbitrary stats in a PVE game? If you want kills so badly, play solo. The players who don't mind or appreciate the frames as they are can't just click the solo button to undo the changes. A vocal minority should NEVER influence game balance for the majority.

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