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Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited


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Can we pretty please stop nerfing frames because people complain about kill counts and other arbitrary stats in a PVE game? If you want kills so badly, play solo. The players who don't mind or appreciate the frames as they are can't just click the solo button to undo the changes. A vocal minority should NEVER influence game balance for the majority.

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Everything but the Ember changes look good. (though, I would have liked to see Zephyr get a different 4 as well.)

 

I'd really, really like to see DE stop with the double-whammy nerf hammer approach. It's painfully obvious that these changes aren't play-tested in any meaningful way aside from making sure it doesn't bug out.

Especially when this is literally just more fuel for the "Zenurik tree is the only one worth taking" fire.

Edited by KijiMuna
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2 hours ago, Gradundulidae said:

Can we pretty please stop nerfing frames because people complain about kill counts and other arbitrary stats in a PVE game? If you want kills so badly, play solo. The players who don't mind or appreciate the frames as they are can't just click the solo button to undo the changes. A vocal minority should NEVER influence game balance for the majority.

1 hour ago, KijiMuna said:

I'd really, really like to see DE stop with the double-whammy nerf hammer approach. It's painfully obvious that these changes aren't play-tested in any meaningful way aside from making sure it doesn't bug out.

All of this. Please, DE, just stop it. If you're going to do changes like this, we'd like to see more livestream testing too - and not just have one dev running solo in Mot! Do sorties, do group plays, don't be lazy and bury the feedback under the mindset, "we made the game, so we know better than the players." I get you guys have the ultimate say in what happens to the game, but please be considerate to your fans. It's frankly frustrating at times because sometimes it really feels like whoever's in charge of the decisions simply doesn't care for our input.

That being said, at least the developers who do take their time to communicate with players through social media have been pretty nice. I appreciate that.

 

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Okay, here's a take on the Ember situation, after giving it a lot more thought:

Through the combination of Fatal Accelerant and the addition of heat damage on shots fired through Fire Blast, she can put out a lot of damage, much more than she ever could with World on Fire. The change to WoF makes it, well, not particularly useful? Maybe if it didn't shrink, but it just WAS smaller, and did more damage, and more drain, at base, so it could be useful for stumbling a big guy into the ground. As it stands, most people will just turn it on and off to keep the range long and the kill counts high, this isn't really a fix, just adding more button presses. Turn it into a short range randomized series of flame bursts that can do high damage, and it might find some value.

World on Fire, currently, is a survivability tool more than anything, and she'll need that replaced if she's going to be even remotely usable. I'd like to propose bringing back Overheat, but as her passive, considering her current passive is pretty much worthless. On the off-chance that you run across one of the few enemies that does heat damage, and they manage to proc you, you can get, what, 20 energy out of it, while taking damage? Not particularly useful. Imagine, though, if her passive were a defensive buff that promoted active play.

Overheat could have, say a meter of some kind. As you deal heat damage, the meter goes up, over time, it gradually goes down. The meter could determine what sort of damage resistance Ember has, wreathing her in flames that melt incoming bullets and stagger melee attackers, reducing damage drastically when kept full, which could be done using her abilities, both through directly damaging enemies with them, and through increasing heat damage on your weapons.

 

Of course, I can't imagine this will get done. I'd like to have faith in the development team to bring us a reasonable kit, and they've done much better in recent times, but we've still got an Ash that doesn't function, etc. Just, hey, maybe if you want to promote active play, actually promote it, instead of harming other sorts of gameplay. Positive reinforcement works best.

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5 hours ago, Bladefeather said:

I actually agree with you 100% here.  If they did something like that, I probably wouldn't mind the nerfs at all.  But they aren't doing any of that, so my point still stands.

A warframe has only this much room for adjustments. Our damage output and survival capabilities don't scale with the content. We're quickly becoming gods walking around mere mortals on the star chart - regardless of the frame we take there - but sadly, our foes don't get more challenging in endless missions. No, they just turn into walking, talking, bunker-grade bullet sponges.

It's nigh impossible to balance the frames for this. Our foes really need to enlist in a military academy, study their - and their enemies's - skills and gear and lear to face us in better formations, while maximizing their own gear as they level up.

I remember the dwarves we were facing in hard mode dungeons in GW1. They were, basically the same with the normal mode one (just sligthy hier stats), but with more skills that were synergizing great. If our dear enemies here would use the mods they drop, if they'd form squads when assaulting (or defending against) us instead of mindlessly throwing themselves against in our bullets... Then we'd have something to work with, a warframe would get balanced so that it stays relevant (with no extremes) in most situations, or requiring some degree of team-work too for others. I mean, it's possible to eat soup with a fork, but it goes smoother if using a spoon.

It was during the heated debate that I realized this. Any warframe buffing or nerfing is subject to change. But it is NOT to balance it for the challanges ahead. The changes are almost always aimed at us and the way we're abusing an ability or another. So we'll rant or rage, then find another way to mow down the same zombie-like foes of ours.

And here's the last hiccup: your argument is valid for the situation you're referring to, but so is DE's. People arguing Ember is getting a big hit to her survivability are correct, but so are those pointing out the dull gameplay and excessive power she exibits across the star chart. A warframe that can face and defeat hordes of mindless level 120+ enemies will always be wrecking balls for anything lower. Now, most of the game's content falls in the 2nd category (where you also find most of the creative work). So what should the warframe be fine-tuned for?

No matter how I look at it, the result is the same: it's the enemies that need being looked at and improved, not the warframes nerfed. Granted, Zephyr and others like her needed some love badly, but when talking balance, we're focusing on and trying to address the effects, not the cause.

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21 hours ago, ApocalypticFlameFury said:

EXACTLY! See, this exactly what I was saying. I really appreciate your support and reply to what I said. I kept telling the other guy what Chroma mains would say....and I agree with all of you. I love Chroma. He's not my top, top main but he IS one of my top favorite frames in the entire game. When I want to eradicate something for good, I pick Chroma. Because it takes a lot of forma to build him up and eventually you got one top notch dragon. I 100% agree with you man, we all need to unite and tell DE that nerfing Vex Armor is wrong! 

I'd very much like to no what gun there is that can actually take the teralyst down without chroma, because nothing i've tried puts the slightest dent in it health

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4 hours ago, Gradundulidae said:

Can we pretty please stop nerfing frames because people complain about kill counts and other arbitrary stats in a PVE game? If you want kills so badly, play solo. The players who don't mind or appreciate the frames as they are can't just click the solo button to undo the changes. A vocal minority should NEVER influence game balance for the majority.

I wish everyone thought like you, it's so stupid to complain about something so trivial when the solution is as simple as changing to solo mode, I feel that DE has completely lost their minds with these ridiculous nerfs that drive things into the ground until there's nothing left to salvage

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2 hours ago, POIKILO said:

All of this. Please, DE, just stop it. If you're going to do changes like this, we'd like to see more livestream testing too - and not just have one dev running solo in Mot! Do sorties, do group plays, don't be lazy and bury the feedback under the mindset, "we made the game, so we know better than the players." I get you guys have the ultimate say in what happens to the game, but please be considerate to your fans. It's frankly frustrating at times because sometimes it really feels like whoever's in charge of the decisions simply doesn't care for our input.

That being said, at least the developers who do take their time to communicate with players through social media have been pretty nice. I appreciate that.

 

I'm pretty sure that they don't care for our input, personally i think they've lost their freaking minds, and when people say that these nerfs are making the game balanced, they obviously don't know the definition of the word balance, because the enemies seem to be getting stronger and the frames and weapons weaker, it's the exact opposite of balance.

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29 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Harbinger XK5 said:

I'm pretty sure that they don't care for our input, personally i think they've lost their freaking minds, and when people say that these nerfs are making the game balanced, they obviously don't know the definition of the word balance, because the enemies seem to be getting stronger and the frames and weapons weaker, it's the exact opposite of balance.

I'm pretty sure you're pretty wrong :D check the Part 2 of this topic for the evidence to support my claim. After clearing the star chart and the occasional sortie, he frames and weapons are getting weaker because the frames are pushing for those level 5000 enemies (for no logical reason other than seeing where the frame actually breaks). Regardless of the mechanics behind monsters scaling, or the lack of any (scaling) in the rewards department. And yet you want the frames balanced for the latter, even if the "real" content is actually the former.

"I want my warframe strong to brave the level 500 monsters I want to fight for no reason! I don't care the star chart is turned into a joke in the process" is a bad approach I think. It means WE don't care about everything there, all of DE's work to make it better, that we're only interested in a niche segment of the game that brings nothing new - no special mobs mechanics, no epeen rewards, no shift in mobs behavior. But that's what we want to play. And everything else can go to hell! That's certainly bound to make this game better, right?! :<

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On 2/3/2018 at 5:03 AM, [DE]Connor said:

EMBER

World On Fire - 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.
 

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”. By simply bullet jumping through levels with World on Fire active, enemies become a non-factor, making Ember a ubiquitous pick across most of the Star Chart. Like a mobile Resonating Quake, this monopoly on kills can leave squadmates struggling to keep up, in an attempt to see the enemy before they melt. These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range.

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

As someone who mains Ember, I'm not sure how I feel about the change, I use ember in very high levels, as a superior, close proximity CC. Standard range with the Fire Quake allows ember to survive with my weapons doing the damage, knocking down enemies as you get near with WoF, with the fire status also doing CC, the use of Accelerant to stun larger groups. Ember gets very little kills, Survival-ability is relied on the CC and fast movements and kills with melee and medium to long range weapons. I know of no one who uses Ember like this, but that is how I feel she should be used, an unseen potential, so much CC potential, overlooked. With this change, it will definitely allow her to scale in high levels... as a wipe out frame. However, despite my concerns I do think you are heading in the right direction.

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On 2/6/2018 at 8:26 AM, Xzorn said:

@(PS4)Rasmus_ep88 @Bladefeather

Yea, the closer you get to 99.99% damage reduction the more drastic a difference 0.01% will make.

The reduction in armor value also makes him more vulnerable to damage type modifiers. Similar to how Puncture damage seems to work well on lvl 30 Grineer but doesn't work well on lvl 300 Grineer.

Sadly, if the right damage type hits Chroma it can be much worse than a 100% increase in damage taken. In this example the old Chroma is hit with 1,000 Puncture Damage. Lets say a Nullifier's Lanka (Yea they're Puncture) which has a +50% Damage modifier against Ferrite and then the New Chroma is hit by the same damage.

-Old-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 15,596.82)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.0192
damage =  28.85

-New-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 3,677.5)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.08158
damage =  122.37

(122.37 - 28.85) / 28.85 = 3.2817 = 324% More Damage Taken

The lower the numerical value of armor the more vulnerable something is to damage type modifier double dips.

This is in addition to his eHP being effectively 20% of it's original value.

Very good my friend, but also consider the builds. My 299% Power Strength Chroma has 7014 Armor, but with vitality has only 18k Effective health. With puncture damage, you gotta halve the armor, increase the damage by 50%. I theorize that against puncutre damage, my 299% PS chroma if I were to use only vitality as my health, turns out my effective ehp against puncture damage is 6260.4. This is ridiculously less than any DR frame in game

 

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Wow, so I've seen quite a few complaints raised over Ember here.  The one thing I can agree to is that all BUT the range reduction would be a feasible answer.  In fact MOST posts that bother to talk about this agree that the range issue is the killer here.  Turning WoF off every so often to reset drain is something that could be done.  As has been repeated ad nauseum however, nerfing range on a (the) survival tool in Ember's kit seems totally excessive.  I would love to see this point of the change leave the table entirely, at least for now.  Ember should also have a bit more added to her toolbox for staying alive, given that her only solution until now was to hide behind Firequake.

As to Chroma, the fix to his damage scaling is just that: a fix, and one that's been a long time in coming.  At the same point I'd like to see some way for Chroma to recieve a bit of something in return.  He's really only able to do the one thing, and no matter how well he does that one thing people would've done other builds if viable.  That's sort of not been a thing for Chroma.  As such, I'd like to see some general utility work done on his other abilities, if for no other reason than to make him more interesting to play.

Volt needs higher sprint speed, lower Strength scaling on Speed, and base Volt needs a touch more armor and a larger energy pool.  Adjustments to his Discharge aren't looking promising just yet, and it's going to take quite a bit to replace the Speed build for some people (I hate it, but I'm not all Volt players in the game).

Ash concerns me.  Where Volt need Capacitance for any decent Discharge-centered build, Ash REQUIRES augments for his teleport and shuriken abilities.  I'm not a fan of required augments.

I know people will point out that Ash can benefit from the bleed procs on his shurikens and that the teleport allows for quick finisher attacks without the augments, but realistically this is just a costly bleed proc or a silly movement power without the benefit of the attached augments.  In this case, it's not that the augments are powerful, but rather that the abilities are not.  Not too sure if this is what a 'Frame should require in order to be played: an entire mod slot devoted to an augment that doesn't even come with the base 'Frame.

Eh, I can wait and see about some of these, but Ember is hurting.

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2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Wow, so I've seen quite a few complaints raised over Ember here.  The one thing I can agree to is that all BUT the range reduction would be a feasible answer.  In fact MOST posts that bother to talk about this agree that the range issue is the killer here.  Turning WoF off every so often to reset drain is something that could be done.  As has been repeated ad nauseum however, nerfing range on a (the) survival tool in Ember's kit seems totally excessive.  I would love to see this point of the change leave the table entirely, at least for now.  Ember should also have a bit more added to her toolbox for staying alive, given that her only solution until now was to hide behind Firequake.

As to Chroma, the fix to his damage scaling is just that: a fix, and one that's been a long time in coming.  At the same point I'd like to see some way for Chroma to recieve a bit of something in return.  He's really only able to do the one thing, and no matter how well he does that one thing people would've done other builds if viable.  That's sort of not been a thing for Chroma.  As such, I'd like to see some general utility work done on his other abilities, if for no other reason than to make him more interesting to play.

Volt needs higher sprint speed, lower Strength scaling on Speed, and base Volt needs a touch more armor and a larger energy pool.  Adjustments to his Discharge aren't looking promising just yet, and it's going to take quite a bit to replace the Speed build for some people (I hate it, but I'm not all Volt players in the game).

Ash concerns me.  Where Volt need Capacitance for any decent Discharge-centered build, Ash REQUIRES augments for his teleport and shuriken abilities.  I'm not a fan of required augments.

I know people will point out that Ash can benefit from the bleed procs on his shurikens and that the teleport allows for quick finisher attacks without the augments, but realistically this is just a costly bleed proc or a silly movement power without the benefit of the attached augments.  In this case, it's not that the augments are powerful, but rather that the abilities are not.  Not too sure if this is what a 'Frame should require in order to be played: an entire mod slot devoted to an augment that doesn't even come with the base 'Frame.

Eh, I can wait and see about some of these, but Ember is hurting.

So one could assign a macro to tapping WoF on and off, unless it would overlap with the Atterax spin one :D She would be better with a full range CC and a 10m burst heat damage. Kinda like how Banshee will be now (1 wave of heat that applies a massive burn), but with the CC left untouched (since Ember doesn't have a Silence backup for CC'ing - not that Silence works wonders).

I think Chroma waiting in line so long for that fix is what made the people angry now. 3 years is enough time for "broken" to become "the norm". After Spectral Scream got buffed (guessing to the best of its possible outcome), it is Effigy that could get some attention. I mean, sure SS will still be a pointless energy sink from my point of view, but bar coming up with a new ability there, the only other buff it could get would be a 360 aoe with 50% effect behind Chroma - it's a scream, after all, not a spit.

I totally agree on the topic of Auguments. For some warframes, their are just as much an augument as the 4th wheel is to a car - car can still function with 3 wheels to some extent.

An augument mod slot could work too, if them auguments would radically boost or change the playstyle - not just make it whole. And in this case, it would make sense to limit the use to one. But so far, most warframes only get either a skill improvement via auguments or just a reason to even use that given skill (Banshee's quake - for example - which, without RQ, is too weak to be of any use damage-wise and CC-wise is a crossbreed between a nuisance - for keeping the mobs too far - and an utility skill. Thus RQ becomes, in both current and future form, the reason to use it)

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On 2/7/2018 at 7:18 PM, computermanhansel said:

Here is my suggestion. While scaling from 0 to 100, how about add an ability like immolate. What I mean is while WOF is essentially powering up, Ember's body is also heating up as well. at 100%, immolate works like a flame shield that blocks/melts a percentage of bullets fired at her. It would work essentially like zephyr's turbulence minus the reflecting of bullets. This would give her some survivability without being OP.

Powering up to do what? What you suggested would actually make sense if Ember's body would initially hit up - melting them bullets and at 100% she'd just burst damage everything, adding a knockdown effect and get some energy for each enemy killed in the process. That would make WoF no longer a toggle skill :)

 

18 hours ago, MickeyVII said:

Why do powers go through walls? Why do they have to go through walls at all? Why and how is that even a thing? It's the worst.

I know. Maim and fire shouldn't reach through walls. However, antimatter is... antimatter (probably doesn't let a shabby wall stop it) and earthquakes kinda do go through them, knockin' the poor buildings down in the process :D

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After having Ember Prime since the vault opened and using 5 forma on her, she's freaking lethal (too lethal) and probably deserves some changes to her mechanics. That said, however, I think that reduced range on her 4th ability after 5 seconds will completely kill her survivability since later she relies on everything around her being knocked down with Firequake augment before she can be shot by heavier units like Bombards or CC-ed by Ancients, etc.

Also I doubt that double damage will help that much with the ridiculous armor on level 60+ Grineer, but should work on everyone else.

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22 minutes ago, snarfbot said:

doubling a pittance of damage is just 2 pittances, way to go nerfing ember team.

 

Outside the of the only viable solution (which would be rethinking the enemies post-star chart), can you suggest a variant that doesn't lead to Ember wiping clean any and every planet while saving all the bullets? I agree that the range will be pretty unpleasant CC-wise, but just like Banshee, she was being too powerfull for her own good up to almost sortie level. The fact that people are very attached sentimentally to her doesn't cancel the fact that she doesn't have a play-style before sortie mission, but just a stylish afk behavior - if she's not spinning like a fart in the pants within the confines of the defense/interception missions.

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48 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Outside the of the only viable solution (which would be rethinking the enemies post-star chart), can you suggest a variant that doesn't lead to Ember wiping clean any and every planet while saving all the bullets? I agree that the range will be pretty unpleasant CC-wise, but just like Banshee, she was being too powerfull for her own good up to almost sortie level. The fact that people are very attached sentimentally to her doesn't cancel the fact that she doesn't have a play-style before sortie mission, but just a stylish afk behavior - if she's not spinning like a fart in the pants within the confines of the defense/interception missions.

Yeah, some of us have.

  • WoF's damage decreases with range - the most damage is dealt in close proximity to Ember, and enemies on the furthest edge of WoF barely get tickled. CC and original range is preserved.
  • WoF deals no damage at all, but keeps original range and CC function.
  • I'm sure there are more suggestions within the 119+ pages but I'm not done reading.

The biggest issue Ember fans have is what is being done to Ember's CC and her survivability - many don't care about the damage WoF deals because it's not used for killing things in high level content. Others players have issues about AFK WoF Embers and speedrunner Embers - it's an unfortunate part of having a game based on a grindy system. If it bleeds, people will cheese it. It's unavoidable. People will find ways to make the grind more bearable. If Ember goes down, people will use other means of cheesing it. That being said, there are better ways of balancing things out but Ember's WoF nerf is anything but a positive rework. That's why the community is providing feedback and suggestions so hopefully we can balance Ember in a way that is good for low and high level content.

Reworks must be well-thought out and tested to make gameplay enjoyable. In order for that to happen though DE needs to listen to their players and not a vocal minority because really, how is that fair? That, and they should test more before releasing changes and then sending out a bunch of hotfixes. It'd save them a lot of work in the long run.

 

Edited by POIKILO
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i like the banshee changes, do you think people liked pressing 4 until everything died and then dropping a pizza in between waves? lol ofc not. and banshee has her 3 and 1 for some pretty solid cc, and an amazing 2. if anything you could compare sound quake with the revamped aug to a better version of embers 3, and silence to firequake.

 

the reduced range ruins the skill, and the doubled damage does next to nothing to compensate in any situation that matters. in low level areas, its a straight nerf. in high levels, its a straight nerf lol.

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im playing her right now, its bad.

 

the problem with ember has always been that she had no dump stat, she needs power strength, range, efficiency and duration, all her survivability comes from dead enemies and knockdown and arms flailing burning animation for cc.

 

might as well go with accelerant and atterax build if im gonna have to be up in everyones face.

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They are really awsome changes, but i have doubts.

 

  • Chroma
    • It´s a solo frame, giving him an "better aura", i´ts a bad idea, because we could not invest on power strenght and continuity if we need range. Will kill this warframe. Chroma it´s not a good support. Tank plus damage, have made your way on the best warframes. A rework about that factor is the future. We need mobility not a nerf.
  • Zephyr
    • Why not invert the ultimate of Atlas like his conclave effect? Transforming on a rumbler. It´s one of the best design ideas for a ultimate, the rumblers are stupid and have some of the worst AI i have saw. They don´t help, and if help it´s luck. If add that the frame will be more than awsome!
Edited by lucasmolla
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