Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Himenoinu]

2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Wow, so I've seen quite a few complaints raised over Ember here.  The one thing I can agree to is that all BUT the range reduction would be a feasible answer.  In fact MOST posts that bother to talk about this agree that the range issue is the killer here.  Turning WoF off every so often to reset drain is something that could be done.  As has been repeated ad nauseum however, nerfing range on a (the) survival tool in Ember's kit seems totally excessive.  I would love to see this point of the change leave the table entirely, at least for now.  Ember should also have a bit more added to her toolbox for staying alive, given that her only solution until now was to hide behind Firequake.

As to Chroma, the fix to his damage scaling is just that: a fix, and one that's been a long time in coming.  At the same point I'd like to see some way for Chroma to recieve a bit of something in return.  He's really only able to do the one thing, and no matter how well he does that one thing people would've done other builds if viable.  That's sort of not been a thing for Chroma.  As such, I'd like to see some general utility work done on his other abilities, if for no other reason than to make him more interesting to play.

Volt needs higher sprint speed, lower Strength scaling on Speed, and base Volt needs a touch more armor and a larger energy pool.  Adjustments to his Discharge aren't looking promising just yet, and it's going to take quite a bit to replace the Speed build for some people (I hate it, but I'm not all Volt players in the game).

Ash concerns me.  Where Volt need Capacitance for any decent Discharge-centered build, Ash REQUIRES augments for his teleport and shuriken abilities.  I'm not a fan of required augments.

I know people will point out that Ash can benefit from the bleed procs on his shurikens and that the teleport allows for quick finisher attacks without the augments, but realistically this is just a costly bleed proc or a silly movement power without the benefit of the attached augments.  In this case, it's not that the augments are powerful, but rather that the abilities are not.  Not too sure if this is what a 'Frame should require in order to be played: an entire mod slot devoted to an augment that doesn't even come with the base 'Frame.

Eh, I can wait and see about some of these, but Ember is hurting.

So one could assign a macro to tapping WoF on and off, unless it would overlap with the Atterax spin one :D She would be better with a full range CC and a 10m burst heat damage. Kinda like how Banshee will be now (1 wave of heat that applies a massive burn), but with the CC left untouched (since Ember doesn't have a Silence backup for CC'ing - not that Silence works wonders).

I think Chroma waiting in line so long for that fix is what made the people angry now. 3 years is enough time for "broken" to become "the norm". After Spectral Scream got buffed (guessing to the best of its possible outcome), it is Effigy that could get some attention. I mean, sure SS will still be a pointless energy sink from my point of view, but bar coming up with a new ability there, the only other buff it could get would be a 360 aoe with 50% effect behind Chroma - it's a scream, after all, not a spit.

I totally agree on the topic of Auguments. For some warframes, their are just as much an augument as the 4th wheel is to a car - car can still function with 3 wheels to some extent.

An augument mod slot could work too, if them auguments would radically boost or change the playstyle - not just make it whole. And in this case, it would make sense to limit the use to one. But so far, most warframes only get either a skill improvement via auguments or just a reason to even use that given skill (Banshee's quake - for example - which, without RQ, is too weak to be of any use damage-wise and CC-wise is a crossbreed between a nuisance - for keeping the mobs too far - and an utility skill. Thus RQ becomes, in both current and future form, the reason to use it)

[Trichouette]

Il y a 15 heures, Bladefeather a dit :

I guess you didn't read all the math people have been giving that shows his ehp dropping to 1/5th of what it is now.

Oh god that's awful, lucky for us it's useless to be that tanky in warframe.

[Simmml]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb JetFuelFeelz:

yo wth, why

Becasue Mag is the best. And we only get 3 fashion slots per warframe...

[xLawlietx]

Am 2.2.2018 um 20:04 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

I have a cup of tea and am almost ready to go live at twitch.tv/warframe! COME JOIN! 

U drinking really much cups of tea didnt you? :D

[Himenoinu]

On 2/7/2018 at 7:18 PM, computermanhansel said:

Here is my suggestion. While scaling from 0 to 100, how about add an ability like immolate. What I mean is while WOF is essentially powering up, Ember's body is also heating up as well. at 100%, immolate works like a flame shield that blocks/melts a percentage of bullets fired at her. It would work essentially like zephyr's turbulence minus the reflecting of bullets. This would give her some survivability without being OP.

Powering up to do what? What you suggested would actually make sense if Ember's body would initially hit up - melting them bullets and at 100% she'd just burst damage everything, adding a knockdown effect and get some energy for each enemy killed in the process. That would make WoF no longer a toggle skill :)

 

18 hours ago, MickeyVII said:

Why do powers go through walls? Why do they have to go through walls at all? Why and how is that even a thing? It's the worst.

I know. Maim and fire shouldn't reach through walls. However, antimatter is... antimatter (probably doesn't let a shabby wall stop it) and earthquakes kinda do go through them, knockin' the poor buildings down in the process :D

[Himenoinu]

18 hours ago, -WBA-Rodrigo said:

And the first prize of the "Gif the Nerf" contest goes to...

[Veldara]

After having Ember Prime since the vault opened and using 5 forma on her, she's freaking lethal (too lethal) and probably deserves some changes to her mechanics. That said, however, I think that reduced range on her 4th ability after 5 seconds will completely kill her survivability since later she relies on everything around her being knocked down with Firequake augment before she can be shot by heavier units like Bombards or CC-ed by Ancients, etc.

Also I doubt that double damage will help that much with the ridiculous armor on level 60+ Grineer, but should work on everyone else.

[snarfbot]

doubling a pittance of damage is just 2 pittances, way to go nerfing ember team.

 

[Himenoinu]

22 minutes ago, snarfbot said:

doubling a pittance of damage is just 2 pittances, way to go nerfing ember team.

 

Outside the of the only viable solution (which would be rethinking the enemies post-star chart), can you suggest a variant that doesn't lead to Ember wiping clean any and every planet while saving all the bullets? I agree that the range will be pretty unpleasant CC-wise, but just like Banshee, she was being too powerfull for her own good up to almost sortie level. The fact that people are very attached sentimentally to her doesn't cancel the fact that she doesn't have a play-style before sortie mission, but just a stylish afk behavior - if she's not spinning like a fart in the pants within the confines of the defense/interception missions.

[POIKILO]

48 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Outside the of the only viable solution (which would be rethinking the enemies post-star chart), can you suggest a variant that doesn't lead to Ember wiping clean any and every planet while saving all the bullets? I agree that the range will be pretty unpleasant CC-wise, but just like Banshee, she was being too powerfull for her own good up to almost sortie level. The fact that people are very attached sentimentally to her doesn't cancel the fact that she doesn't have a play-style before sortie mission, but just a stylish afk behavior - if she's not spinning like a fart in the pants within the confines of the defense/interception missions.

Yeah, some of us have.

• WoF's damage decreases with range - the most damage is dealt in close proximity to Ember, and enemies on the furthest edge of WoF barely get tickled. CC and original range is preserved.
• WoF deals no damage at all, but keeps original range and CC function.
• I'm sure there are more suggestions within the 119+ pages but I'm not done reading.

The biggest issue Ember fans have is what is being done to Ember's CC and her survivability - many don't care about the damage WoF deals because it's not used for killing things in high level content. Others players have issues about AFK WoF Embers and speedrunner Embers - it's an unfortunate part of having a game based on a grindy system. If it bleeds, people will cheese it. It's unavoidable. People will find ways to make the grind more bearable. If Ember goes down, people will use other means of cheesing it. That being said, there are better ways of balancing things out but Ember's WoF nerf is anything but a positive rework. That's why the community is providing feedback and suggestions so hopefully we can balance Ember in a way that is good for low and high level content.

Reworks must be well-thought out and tested to make gameplay enjoyable. In order for that to happen though DE needs to listen to their players and not a vocal minority because really, how is that fair? That, and they should test more before releasing changes and then sending out a bunch of hotfixes. It'd save them a lot of work in the long run.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by POIKILO

[snarfbot]

i like the banshee changes, do you think people liked pressing 4 until everything died and then dropping a pizza in between waves? lol ofc not. and banshee has her 3 and 1 for some pretty solid cc, and an amazing 2. if anything you could compare sound quake with the revamped aug to a better version of embers 3, and silence to firequake.

 

the reduced range ruins the skill, and the doubled damage does next to nothing to compensate in any situation that matters. in low level areas, its a straight nerf. in high levels, its a straight nerf lol.

[snarfbot]

im playing her right now, its bad.

 

the problem with ember has always been that she had no dump stat, she needs power strength, range, efficiency and duration, all her survivability comes from dead enemies and knockdown and arms flailing burning animation for cc.

 

might as well go with accelerant and atterax build if im gonna have to be up in everyones face.

[--LENGEY--]

They are really awsome changes, but i have doubts.

 

• Chroma
  • It´s a solo frame, giving him an "better aura", i´ts a bad idea, because we could not invest on power strenght and continuity if we need range. Will kill this warframe. Chroma it´s not a good support. Tank plus damage, have made your way on the best warframes. A rework about that factor is the future. We need mobility not a nerf.
• Zephyr
  • Why not invert the ultimate of Atlas like his conclave effect? Transforming on a rumbler. It´s one of the best design ideas for a ultimate, the rumblers are stupid and have some of the worst AI i have saw. They don´t help, and if help it´s luck. If add that the frame will be more than awsome!

Edited February 8, 2018 by lucasmolla

[StarGrit]

I'm LOVING the sound of the Zephyr changes, bringing my baby back in line with other frames. I was kind of hoping for a passive change, because slow-falling is cool sometimes, but hazardous most of the time. The easiest fix I can think of that keeps the passive is that her first airborne Tailwind cast is free, giving you a fast, safe form of landing, whilst giving her back her old mobility supremacy. Maybe add that into an augment? Either way, the fact that theyre reducing energy costs should keep me happy as-is. Maybe I can shift my build away from efficiency and add some damage or mobility in elsewhere, now.

Edited February 8, 2018 by ospreyfox

[StarGrit]

6 minutes ago, lucasmolla said:

 

• Chroma
  • It´s a solo frame, giving him an "better aura", i´ts a bad idea, because we could not invest on power strenght and continuity if we need range. Will kill this warframe. Chroma it´s not a good support. Tank plus damage, have made your way on the best warframes. A rework about that factor is the future. We need mobility not a nerf.
• Zephyr
  • Why not invert the ultimate of Atlas like his conclave effect? Transforming on a rumbler. It´s one of the best design ideas for a ultimate, the rumblers are stupid and have some of the worst AI i have saw. They don´t help, and if help it´s luck. If add that the frame will be more than awsome!

Chroma: GOT a mobility buff for his Scream. He can burn stuff faster, now. He was OP before, they're bringing him in line with other top damagers and giving him a teamplay aspect, not dumping him down to support level.

Zephyr: I prefer tornadoes.

[Shaqsputin]

Please for the love of all that is holy, if you're going to nerf banshee and ember's aoe, please fix uranus defense at the same time, not after. That mission is a nightmare having to hunt down the 2-3 enemies that always get stuck in some S#&$ty corner at the end of every wave even with their abilities. Considering how often Neo endless def spawns there its going to be hell once they've been nerfed.

[AlienCrixus]

Can we please get some form of re-obtaining Atlas' Blueprint? Because I foolishly sold mine and therefore was rendered Atlas-less. :(

[(PSN)Gangalito]

ZEPHYR

Tail Wind - Combined into a single ability with Dive Bomb. Can be charge cast on the ground, launching Zephyr into the air where she then hovers. In the air, Tail Wind still flies in whatever direction you’re looking, and Dive Bomb activates if cast while looking straight down.

 

Why not make Zephyr's Tailwind act like it does now, with the added dive bomb mechanics while also resetting aimglide duration.  Adjust her passive so she doesn't lose altitude while she aimglides and has perfect directional control with an increased duration.   This will give Zephyr more fluidity in her ability to maneuver while in the air by allowing her to "hover" at a distance the player chooses instead of a static altitude set by power duration.  This would also allow her to "fly" kinda in a way that's both useful and different from Titania's.

Edited February 9, 2018 by (PS4)Gangalito

[CobraHell]

<3

[theEota]

all this talk about the nerfs make me not want to buy the prime pack, I don't want to spend the extra 20 dollars getting her if shes going to be un-fun. 

[Shockness]

I'm worried Ember is not going to have any range anymore with this nerf, you only get 21 meters with stretch so if the ability is at 100% that would mean u'll get 10,5 meters if range, that's literally nothing and it will nerf Embers survivability because of it

[Himenoinu]

7 hours ago, POIKILO said:

Yeah, some of us have.

• WoF's damage decreases with range - the most damage is dealt in close proximity to Ember, and enemies on the furthest edge of WoF barely get tickled. CC and original range is preserved.
• WoF deals no damage at all, but keeps original range and CC function.
• I'm sure there are more suggestions within the 119+ pages but I'm not done reading.

The biggest issue Ember fans have is what is being done to Ember's CC and her survivability - many don't care about the damage WoF deals because it's not used for killing things in high level content. Others players have issues about AFK WoF Embers and speedrunner Embers - it's an unfortunate part of having a game based on a grindy system. If it bleeds, people will cheese it. It's unavoidable. People will find ways to make the grind more bearable. If Ember goes down, people will use other means of cheesing it. That being said, there are better ways of balancing things out but Ember's WoF nerf is anything but a positive rework. That's why the community is providing feedback and suggestions so hopefully we can balance Ember in a way that is good for low and high level content.

Reworks must be well-thought out and tested to make gameplay enjoyable. In order for that to happen though DE needs to listen to their players and not a vocal minority because really, how is that fair? That, and they should test more before releasing changes and then sending out a bunch of hotfixes. It'd save them a lot of work in the long run.

 

so... this is why I said what I did. Take Ember anywhere on the star chart and she kicks &amp;#&#33; - CC or not - without using her weapons much. Now, the star chart is where the story unfolds, where most players get their loot and so on (even here Embers opt for a full rewards rotation, not many cycles of it). So it makes sense for her - or any other warframe - to be balanced around it.

Don't jump at my throat just yet! 

High level content is a different goose in a different basket. It is the cause of the "illness". The way the difficulty scales is not compatible with the variety of warframes and weapons that can be thrown against it. Like you said, people will find a way to cheese throw, leading to other warframes getting balanced for the star-chart content.

Ember's devastating power on low-to-mid tier missions has little to do with the game being grindy. You don't seem to care much about it, but you also are too focuse on the Ember nerf to talk about what really causes this tear between the star chart adventures and the long endless mission runs. Which is the blunt enemy scaling.

If us, the community, would've filled half of these 120 pages discussing that (and coming up with some incremental way of improving the end-game experience) instead of arguing over the colour of the duct tape that NEEDS to be applied to the warframes so they won't fall apart when facing the root of the problem... then we might've gotten somwhere.

The way it looks now is this: the game is grindy (all endless games are), but otherwise good. There are players who enjoy (and only focus) grinding harder in high level missions that don't bother nor care about the mid level experience (unless they have to cheese through, which they don't).

The reality is that, running a mission should provide a challenge and an adequate reward regardless of level and no single frame should be able to cheese through ALONE. Otherwise, the whole star-chart becomes a tutorial area. 

Only ramping up the armor, shields and hitpoints of the enemies as the difficulty increases will never lead to anything good for the star chart (again, our "world", not the tutorial section), not with the variety of frames, weapons and mods.

Maybe the devs are, like the Ember groupies, too attached to their high level - bunker-grade gear, but peanut-size brains - mobs. So much so, that they would rather tweak anything else in the game to save them from a rework.

If not all warframes can solo high level content, then maybe none should. But if the high level content is just a time (and bullets) sink, then maybe IT should not be. Sorties happen once per day and the rewards don't scale with the difficulty (same AABC). 

I say 'World on fire' should be that. On fire. Not "Words of cinders". With all the mobs' panic from being roasted. Untouched range and energy cost, but affected by obstacles (and walls! - 'cause it's fire, not gamma rays). But above all else, I'll say:

DE, please take away our foes' bunkers from their shoulders and bless'em with a brain (so they can team up more efficiently and learn to use the mods they carry)!

[Himenoinu]

1 hour ago, theEota said:

all this talk about the nerfs make me not want to buy the prime pack, I don't want to spend the extra 20 dollars getting her if shes going to be un-fun. 

Mesa's weapon jamming is fun. Ember turning on WoF and strolling to extraction is dull, in my opinion. But if that's what you consider fun... or like a team mate said on a Pluto defense yesterday, "I like Ember now. I turn on WoF and then I can watch some anime on the other screen"... then I can understand why the nerf will make her "un-fun" :)

[Chaoticist]

I must say, as someone who mains Ember Prime, I'm very disappointed by this nerf of World on Fire, especially as my favorite game type is infected survival. There are several other frames I enjoy, but World on Fire gets me right in my pyromaniac tendencies. Although I mainly only run her to level equipment within a decent time frame considering the lack of time I have to enjoy Warframe, it's still a heavy blow.

At higher levels, all WoF really does is keep away the little stuff while you mow everything else down with weapons.

While I do, indeed, see the point about denying other players opportunity to make their own kills, it'll still lessen my enjoyment of the frame itself.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Chaoticist

[POIKILO]

6 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

-

High level content is a different goose in a different basket. It is the cause of the "illness". The way the difficulty scales is not compatible with the variety of warframes and weapons that can be thrown against it. Like you said, people will find a way to cheese throw, leading to other warframes getting balanced for the star-chart content.

Ember's devastating power on low-to-mid tier missions has little to do with the game being grindy. You don't seem to care much about it, but you also are too focuse on the Ember nerf to talk about what really causes this tear between the star chart adventures and the long endless mission runs. Which is the blunt enemy scaling.

If us, the community, would've filled half of these 120 pages discussing that (and coming up with some incremental way of improving the end-game experience) instead of arguing over the colour of the duct tape that NEEDS to be applied to the warframes so they won't fall apart when facing the root of the problem... then we might've gotten somwhere.

-

The reality is that, running a mission should provide a challenge and an adequate reward regardless of level and no single frame should be able to cheese through ALONE. Otherwise, the whole star-chart becomes a tutorial area. 

Only ramping up the armor, shields and hitpoints of the enemies as the difficulty increases will never lead to anything good for the star chart (again, our "world", not the tutorial section), not with the variety of frames, weapons and mods.

-

But above all else, I'll say:

DE, please take away our foes' bunkers from their shoulders and bless'em with a brain (so they can team up more efficiently and learn to use the mods they carry)!

I actually do agree with you that blunt enemy scaling is a core issue. Like you said, the exponential increases in enemy armor/shields/hp just isn't good beause it doesn't give the sense of a good challenge - we can run an exterminate on Mercury and then run an exterminate on Saturn and it feels the same but with slightly higher levels. And then there's the huge discrepancy when you go off the star chart - you are absolutely correct in that the difficulty scaling is incompatible. It'd be fun to have smarter enemies with more diverse fighting strategies rather than what we have now. Enemies like the Nightwatch Corps from the Project Undermine were a nice start, and I like your suggestions of enemy team formations and giving them the ability to use certain mods. Speaking of DE being too attached to their current mobs...look how long it took for them to finally make some changes to the Corpus Nullifiers.

Gonna agree with you on these points - yeah, no single frame should be able to cheese through a mission alone. Missions shouldn't be cheeseable or unbearable whether solo or in a group. Sorties and the like ARE time/bullet sinks but the rewards definitely don't scale with difficulty.

I did mention in a previous post that this system of scaling DE is using is a persistent problem. We're not the only ones who've brought it up before. I agree it absolutely should be addressed and brought up more because DE has been ignoring it for years. I'm frustrated because they probably will continue to ignore it and continue to rework Warframes without fixing the scaling issue. It's like slapping more bandages onto an infected wound.

Please don't accuse me of being too focused on Ember's nerf because let's face it, if DE managed to ignore the blunt enemy scaling for so long perhaps this shouldn't the thread to bring up the issue in. Someone ought to create a mega-thread around this enemy scaling topic because maybe then DE will start to take notice if enough players pitch in. Because, yeah, it really is a big issue!

Edited February 9, 2018 by POIKILO
added more words