Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Pyradus]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Chroma’s usage was already somewhat narrow, so we want him to remain a competitive option for Teralyst damage boosting, while also improving other parts of his kit.

Am I missing something here or is there a reason why Effigy and Elemental Ward are remaining untouched? Why not actually improve the other parts of his kit like this states (and sorry, spectral stream is looking to remain as useless as it's always been.).

Spectral Stream first of all needs to be a one-handed action that you can perform while shooting, reloading, jumping, whatever. Anything else is a massive loss in dps, and thus wouldn't be worth using unless it had a powerful CC or utility effect attached.

Heat breath could create fire hazards on the ground that panic enemies. Cold breath could freeze enemies solid. Electricity = chain lightning. Toxin = AoE poison cloud that slows and deals finisher (asphyxiation) damage based on the enemy's max health. These are just sample ideas. The point is that it has to be worth using and not disrupt the usage of the player's weapons.

Effigy is a completely useless, slow, stationary thing that roars sometimes. Most of the time it seems to do absolutely nothing. First of all make it a proper 'sentry' with an increased threat level to draw enemy fire. Have it absorb incoming damage for a few seconds after casting and add that to its health like other similar abilities. Dropping it in a room full of high level enemies should feel like really hurling a dragon at them!

Maybe defeating enemies near it could level it up somehow. This would fit with the 'dragon's hoard' theme of the credit boost -- feed the beast and it would become more and more powerful. Remember that it has significant drawbacks by reducing Chroma's armor. Just make the reward worth the risk.

Elemental Ward could also be fleshed out for so many more effects that would make the different colors and elements a meaningful decision. How about effects like these on top of what they already give?

Toxin - Additive bonus status chance to your weapons, increased firing rate.

Electric - Energy regen, movement speed bonus.

Heat - Health regen.

Cold - Create a moving snowglobe like eximus units.

Before you say these are too similar to other warframe abilities.. well, duh. He literally uses other warframes as crafting components. It makes sense that he would inherit some of their abilities, but that they would be more powerful versions. He's an 'ancient legend' after all, right? A master of elements should use them better than the other warframes. Furthermore, he represents a certain level of mastery for the player as well, requiring so much of the star chart to be completed.

When all the land is in ruins, Tenno, only Chroma will remain.

I've stayed silent until now on the Chroma nerfs, but I generally remember people saying things like "I'd be fine with him being nerfed, as long as they make him interesting". I understand it requires a lot of work and not only Chroma but almost every weapon in the game as well as warframes are being changed as well. Perhaps in the future, when he is primed, a more in depth and comprehensive look could be taken at Chroma.

Edited February 9, 2018 by CapnToaster

[Astro911]

Some good changes. Thanks for fixing zephyr. Though i think her 4 is a tad underwhelming still. 

[FinalplayerRyu]

2 hours ago, Astro911 said:

Some good changes. Thanks for fixing zephyr. Though i think her 4 is a tad underwhelming still. 

I would call it an adequate skill. It was very useful, lowering incoming dps from enemies, but not allmighty like other frames skill which isn't something needed in this game.

[Himenoinu]

3 hours ago, CapnToaster said:

Am I missing something here or is there a reason why Effigy and Elemental Ward are remaining untouched? Why not actually improve the other parts of his kit like this states (and sorry, spectral stream is looking to remain as useless as it's always been.).

Spectral Stream first of all needs to be a one-handed action that you can perform while shooting, reloading, jumping, whatever. Anything else is a massive loss in dps, and thus wouldn't be worth using unless it had a powerful CC or utility effect attached.

Heat breath could create fire hazards on the ground that panic enemies. Cold breath could freeze enemies solid. Electricity = chain lightning. Toxin = AoE poison cloud that slows and deals finisher (asphyxiation) damage based on the enemy's max health. These are just sample ideas. The point is that it has to be worth using and not disrupt the usage of the player's weapons.

Effigy is a completely useless, slow, stationary thing that roars sometimes. Most of the time it seems to do absolutely nothing. First of all make it a proper 'sentry' with an increased threat level to draw enemy fire. Have it absorb incoming damage for a few seconds after casting and add that to its health like other similar abilities. Dropping it in a room full of high level enemies should feel like really hurling a dragon at them!

Maybe defeating enemies near it could level it up somehow. This would fit with the 'dragon's hoard' theme of the credit boost -- feed the beast and it would become more and more powerful. Remember that it has significant drawbacks by reducing Chroma's armor. Just make the reward worth the risk.

Elemental Ward could also be fleshed out for so many more effects that would make the different colors and elements a meaningful decision. How about effects like these on top of what they already give?

Toxin - Additive bonus status chance to your weapons, increased firing rate.

Electric - Energy regen, movement speed bonus.

Heat - Health regen.

Cold - Create a moving snowglobe like eximus units.

Before you say these are too similar to other warframe abilities.. well, duh. He literally uses other warframes as crafting components. It makes sense that he would inherit some of their abilities, but that they would be more powerful versions. He's an 'ancient legend' after all, right? A master of elements should use them better than the other warframes. Furthermore, he represents a certain level of mastery for the player as well, requiring so much of the star chart to be completed.

When all the land is in ruins, Tenno, only Chroma will remain.

I've stayed silent until now on the Chroma nerfs, but I generally remember people saying things like "I'd be fine with him being nerfed, as long as they make him interesting". I understand it requires a lot of work and not only Chroma but almost every weapon in the game as well as warframes are being changed as well. Perhaps in the future, when he is primed, a more in depth and comprehensive look could be taken at Chroma.

If he wouldn't have started the adventure overpowered as he was till today, he would not have been nerfed, but shelved.

But I like the suggestions to some extent.

Spectral Scream could have most of those extra effects in a 180* radius in front of him and the current effects at his back.

Elemental ward would give the extra buffs only to the team mates and the radius for it would be not larger than 15m. Energy and health regen wouldn't give more than their aura counterparts do. Now, people will complain about the skill being useless or struggle to adapt at the new situation where Chroma's no longer a solo frame.

[n3rvz]

equinox has the same issue with maim that you describe about ember and world on fire... so how come no fix for it? 

 

I stopped playing over this because the ability is so efficient most of the time it was the only frame I could play unless I deliberately wanted to do worse

[Himenoinu]

7 minutes ago, n3rvz said:

equinox has the same issue with maim that you describe about ember and world on fire... so how come no fix for it? 

 

I stopped playing over this because the ability is so efficient most of the time it was the only frame I could play unless I deliberately wanted to do worse

Equinox has somewhat weaker effect on the mobs, both in terms of damage and CC duration and on top of that, to maintain the range Ember had, you have higher energy upkeep. I tested it in a team with an Ember. It's too late to find alternate targets to distract. Equinox might get a Maim review too, worry not

[SteamlordD]

36 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Equinox has somewhat weaker effect on the mobs, both in terms of damage and CC duration and on top of that, to maintain the range Ember had, you have higher energy upkeep. I tested it in a team with an Ember. It's too late to find alternate targets to distract. Equinox might get a Maim review too, worry not

I'm not sure how Equinox's damage could be considered weaker than Ember's, unless you're not just building range and efficiency, so you're missing out on some of that sweet, sweet damage storage.

[Himenoinu]

17 minutes ago, SteamlordD said:

I'm not sure how Equinox's damage could be considered weaker than Ember's, unless you're not just building range and efficiency, so you're missing out on some of that sweet, sweet damage storage.

I tried to play it Ember-style, for comparison reasons. Ember doesn't have a damage storage, but just a CC/dot mechanic. And using only that, with roughly the same range, you have higher upkeep, lower overall damage (through low levels, so no armor to bother Ember either). Also, Maim doesn't get a sudden Accelerant buff when things get tougher, you just use the stored damage, but that takes time to build back up.

From Venus to Sedna, Ember's WoF outperformed Equinox's Maim in both categories - damage and upkeep. It has proved to be more efficient for clean up the first 35ish waves of defense missions at the beginning of the star chart up to easily hold 2 Xini points with minimal gun use and even on Hydron. Equinox died a few times in the attempt to keep up with Ember's limited gun usage and on Hydron it was impossible to just maim the grineer to death (although it was a good enough CC to clear'em out without too many bruises). We didn't try any maxed/meta build for the comparison, but we both went on with just ability related mods and, as I've said the goal was to closely match the range and energy consumption (although, it ended up with Equinox eating up 0.6 en/sec more or so).

Still, both of them can make at least 3 quarters of the star chart trivial in terms of destructive power (with the whole "killing stuff before you see it" bit), so I wouldn't be surprized if Maim gets some rework too :D

[SteamlordD]

3 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

I tried to play it Ember-style, for comparison reasons. Ember doesn't have a damage storage, but just a CC/dot mechanic. And using only that, with roughly the same range, you have higher upkeep, lower overall damage (through low levels, so no armor to bother Ember either). Also, Maim doesn't get a sudden Accelerant buff when things get tougher, you just use the stored damage, but that takes time to build back up.

From Venus to Sedna, Ember's WoF outperformed Equinox's Maim in both categories - damage and upkeep. It has proved to be more efficient for clean up the first 35ish waves of defense missions at the beginning of the star chart up to easily hold 2 Xini points with minimal gun use and even on Hydron. Equinox died a few times in the attempt to keep up with Ember's limited gun usage and on Hydron it was impossible to just maim the grineer to death (although it was a good enough CC to clear'em out without too many bruises). We didn't try any maxed/meta build for the comparison, but we both went on with just ability related mods and, as I've said the goal was to closely match the range and energy consumption (although, it ended up with Equinox eating up 0.6 en/sec more or so).

Still, both of them can make at least 3 quarters of the star chart trivial in terms of destructive power (with the whole "killing stuff before you see it" bit), so I wouldn't be surprized if Maim gets some rework too :D

Ah, it was sort of a controlled test. Ideally with Maim, you want maximized range and efficiency, and you don't build any strength, because the damage storage is how it really shines. Any damage that you and your teammates deal is thrown into the bucket, and you tap 4 again to blow 200k every 15 seconds or so, after shooting a couple dudes.

[(XBOX)Q Minor 9]

I see the positive change as well as the negative . Positive change being volt doing more damage like he used to when he was primed way back when and fixing chromas damage buff for vex armor (it was broken) . But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves. yes embers 4th is amazing but as you said anything lvl 30 and higher her damage drop off is crazy its like shocking the enemy with volt it does little to no damage . The reason i say that the problem is the player is simple. lets do some Warframe history of nerfs shall we. the synoid gammacore was easily the strongest gun in the game.then there was ash. or as i call him Killer Prime. then there was mesa and mag. then Ash again. Then trinity. then valkyr. Now ash again Everything strong and great gets Nerfed And now you put ember on the chopping block along with banshees augment.  when is it going to be enough if yall keep nerfing whats good about the game and what vets worked hard for your going to end up with an unplayable game. the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing thus. the frames are not to blame here. these new players or uninformed vets of the game are to blame. they could easily ask for build advice find out what cards we use to get the frames the way we do and most vets would pass on the knowledge even if they didnt have the cards there are ways to get them. they could stop running with randoms and join or make a clan and recruit ppl so the always have a squad I think that would solve alot of the issues we see in regards to frame and weapon nerfs.  I would Gladly post my build here for all to see if that would mean ember doesnt get nerfed and id explain why i did it

 

 

TLDR

[JetFuelFeelz]

On 2/8/2018 at 9:44 AM, Simmml said:

Becasue Mag is the best. And we only get 3 fashion slots per warframe...

Id love to see some of the fashions you do with mag, you have to get really creative if ya need over 60 slots

[Himenoinu]

42 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing

Yeah, just remove the afk penalty and new players can take a nap while the game plays itself, thanks to the huge variety of mods that allow some warframes' abilities to stretch further than the eyes can see.

44 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves

You're right here. If players wouldn't use those two skills (me included) as brooms to sweep up low-end content (up to some 40ish level), then there would be no need to nerf'em :D

However, if mobs be smarter and maybe grouped up in teams of sorts, each of them being good at lowering the efficiency of one warframe or another, then we'd be good too - again no need to nerf.

Say, the game registers a lot of heat procs and damage and as such, more frost mobs or nulifiers show up to counter. DE could bring up some commander type unit to shout "Stand your ground!" when Banshees or other players abuse any kind of kd/ragdolling/staggers and so on. Let us play the game the way we see fit, but let the game adapt fast to our 1-button behavior.

But I guess that would still be a "nerf" for some people :D And it's why I wouldn't try, as a dev, to rework the mobs scaling and AI - 'cause people might complain afterwards that the difficulty is too high and the grind is too slow. Might as well stick to warframe balances and dumb-as-a-shoe foes :D

[(XBOX)Q Minor 9]

i have been saying for a while now that tougher enimes would b great or something like a boss mode would be fun

[(XBOX)Q Minor 9]

16 hours ago, Chaoticist said:

I must say, as someone who mains Ember Prime, I'm very disappointed by this nerf of World on Fire, especially as my favorite game type is infected survival. There are several other frames I enjoy, but World on Fire gets me right in my pyromaniac tendencies. Although I mainly only run her to level equipment within a decent time frame considering the lack of time I have to enjoy Warframe, it's still a heavy blow.

At higher levels, all WoF really does is keep away the little stuff while you mow everything else down with weapons.

While I do, indeed, see the point about denying other players opportunity to make their own kills, it'll still lessen my enjoyment of the frame itself.

i completley agree if they didnt cut the range it would be different

[lost_breeze]

On ‎2018‎年‎2‎月‎3‎日 at 3:05 AM, PsiWarp said:

• • Zephyr
    • Tornado spawn at crosshair for precision +1, guided Tornadoes +1, Elemental damage type based on highest damage output +1, holding enemies captive consistency +1, 100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1.
      • Holding aim increases steering control for Tornadoes +1! (part 2)

100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1？

No，I don't think it works, just tested minutes ago

Edited February 10, 2018 by lost_breeze
make the point clearer

[PsiWarp]

4 minutes ago, lost_breeze said:

100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1？

No，I don't think it works, just tested minutes ago

Well it does for me, at least if I shoot my gun into the Tornado, enemies inside take damage.

[(XBOX)DarkAng3l8181]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

I see the positive change as well as the negative . Positive change being volt doing more damage like he used to when he was primed way back when and fixing chromas damage buff for vex armor (it was broken) . But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves. yes embers 4th is amazing but as you said anything lvl 30 and higher her damage drop off is crazy its like shocking the enemy with volt it does little to no damage . The reason i say that the problem is the player is simple. lets do some Warframe history of nerfs shall we. the synoid gammacore was easily the strongest gun in the game.then there was ash. or as i call him Killer Prime. then there was mesa and mag. then Ash again. Then trinity. then valkyr. Now ash again Everything strong and great gets Nerfed And now you put ember on the chopping block along with banshees augment.  when is it going to be enough if yall keep nerfing whats good about the game and what vets worked hard for your going to end up with an unplayable game. the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing thus. the frames are not to blame here. these new players or uninformed vets of the game are to blame. they could easily ask for build advice find out what cards we use to get the frames the way we do and most vets would pass on the knowledge even if they didnt have the cards there are ways to get them. they could stop running with randoms and join or make a clan and recruit ppl so the always have a squad I think that would solve alot of the issues we see in regards to frame and weapon nerfs.  I would Gladly post my build here for all to see if that would mean ember doesnt get nerfed and id explain why i did it

 

 

TLDR

I totally agree. There are other ways to change the game where the frames does not need to be change.

[Himenoinu]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)DarkAng3l8181 said:

I totally agree. There are other ways to change the game where the frames does not need to be change.

Yes! The gane could have sortie-level enemies everywhere! That's the only option that could be deployed fast...but the people would want the frames changed ;)

Sarcasm aside, changing anything else just to keep the brain-afk playstyle of those two frames simply doesn't make sense. And if anyone buys or farms Ember and Banshee, grinds the vaults and fine tunes them just to use one button, ingoring the rest of their kit and their potential... Well, it's like saying "I don't want to change anything about my highly polluting car, because I have installed a very pleasant sound system in it!"

When all the frames have been looked over and adjusted, DE can only do 2 things: 1) release more powerful mods that will again send us into godlyhood versus the mobs... or 2) realize that the major culprits for the whole problem were the enemies and loot scaling and run an overhaul of those.

It's in our nature, I guess, to cuddle up to easy mode...but easy mode in games easily leads to boredom. And improvement can only come through change.

While I agree that Ember might have a hard time in high level content (that will require more fine tunning of her new kit), you seem to be worried only about not being able to cheese through defense mission in a half-afk fashion. And for that to have been addressed without touching the warframes would have required giving the mobs the means to counter the skills (new AI and abilities).

[Icecooco]

Do not wear cloak, please use the default skin

[Kienix]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)DarkAng3l8181 said:

But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves.

I couldn't agree to this more, I for one used her for range and efficiency so that her fourth's agument was effective but now it's just the range is that of a melee attack there's next to no point being her any more. I can no longer use Ember as a utility like I used to (I know this play style's rare but I dislike just having things die around me with no input, especially when they could contribute to my dark daggers red veil prock). As a melee user and an Ember main, I can no longer use both and for this, I am sad.

I really hope that these changes are reconsidered, I want my punk chicken back.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On February 2, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Cap.Sai said:

You kill Volt 

Yeah, mixed feelings on this, BIGTIME.  Without testing, I can't be sure, so I'll have to try it.

The range fall-off seems like a serious detriment to his squishiness and mobility tactics.

Vets have known for a long time that Volt is is a weapon augment frame that thrives on situational increases in speed and mobility, decreases in enemy mobility, and a dependent ratio of damage avoidance/damage augmentation.

 

I don't see how the TRADE-off of increased, immediate-area damage vs scaling enemies makes him better with the stun-duration and damage fall-off...ESPECIALLY the stun duration.

[It seems like] You've effectively given Volt players a false sense of security mid-game and made it far easier for stronger enemies to kill him when trying to use stun/speed/mobility "close-and-kill" tactics.

So then more emphasis gets put on shields and riot/ shields (still too costly in terms of energy/speed even with reduction) which is ok, EXCEPT:

The entire game has shifted towards rewarding  "move and kill" strategies.

Along with his very slow 1.0 base speed, a large part of his kit, then, is not synergized but further compromised for the pay-off of maybe 10-15 enemy levels worth of kill efficiency.

Volt is now seemingly easier to kill at higher levels AND maintains even LESS squad integrity as Squads move through the map and he struggles to keep up by having to protect himself.

Even with Stationary objectives, increased Aggro from all sides will be incoming and at closer range from stronger enemies.

Proving me wrong would bring joy.

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Stenchfury]

Tested the new Ash Bladestorm a bit, it's quite hard now to get INTO the bladestorm while jumping\dodging around like crazy (wich I felt like it was Ash Trademark)  if you have to target a marked enemy and cast a teleport ends up being not as easy to survive and less fun to use.

Ideally it would have been better to be able to press 4 again WHILE the bladestorm is going on (no matter wich enemy is targeted) to get into it, at least no matter how crazy dodging you are doing in the meantime you can quickly teleport away from danger instead of getting handled while trying to find a marked target.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Stenchfury
Added Details

[Himenoinu]

Tested Banshee today. The new RQ looks good, but there might be some issues with how the kd and damage functions.

The mission I went to was a defense on Saturn. Same level bombards and ancients displayed different reactions to RQ within the same wave, being hit by RQ from roughly the same distance (I could've scratched their head). Bombards were taking damage ranging from 50% of their hp to barely any damage at all (5%?) and I had one ancient just drop down dead while the others were hardly affected by it. Hell, even 5 chained RQs didn't do the job. And if I would not have seen the others flip like a tree before, I wouldn't thought it's all good. When the grineer were in their 40ish level, an RQ was doing very little other than making them angry.

And here's where I think RQ problem becomes serious: an angry grineer that recovers from a kd in roughly the same amount of time Banshee needs to stand up from punching the ground means TROUBLE. If hit registration works as intended, then RQ won't be able to clear out even the weak mobs (like the Scorpion) and the short kd duration will not help Banshee in her attempt to continue breathing.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On February 2, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Viquey said:

My biggest concern going into this was the Volt changes--he's mah baby, my CC baby. So I'm most curious about how big a nerf this is to my primary use for him. I use an unusual build, with Overextended for max range and settling for a mere 70% strength--will my playstyle still be viable at all? Or is the stun duration falloff so severe, it'd be pointless? (Feel free to use my account to test that particular build (his loadout's Sahriv)--I'm not sure there exists another Overextended Volt ^^; )

I'm with you.  See my previous post.  It's not even just about losing even more survivability at high levels.  It's about penalizing squad integrity and interrupting the signature speed and combat combo that is Warframe's trademark.  They can use my account...I'm not sure exactly for testing what but don't care.  Volt is my Primary.

My build is a bit more balanced but I use the same philosophy and boost survivability with Capacitance.

Silverback73

PSN North America

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On February 8, 2018 at 4:43 AM, Cytobel said:

Wow, so I've seen quite a few complaints raised over Ember here.  The one thing I can agree to is that all BUT the range reduction would be a feasible answer.  In fact MOST posts that bother to talk about this agree that the range issue is the killer here.  Turning WoF off every so often to reset drain is something that could be done.  As has been repeated ad nauseum however, nerfing range on a (the) survival tool in Ember's kit seems totally excessive.  I would love to see this point of the change leave the table entirely, at least for now.  Ember should also have a bit more added to her toolbox for staying alive, given that her only solution until now was to hide behind Firequake.

As to Chroma, the fix to his damage scaling is just that: a fix, and one that's been a long time in coming.  At the same point I'd like to see some way for Chroma to recieve a bit of something in return.  He's really only able to do the one thing, and no matter how well he does that one thing people would've done other builds if viable.  That's sort of not been a thing for Chroma.  As such, I'd like to see some general utility work done on his other abilities, if for no other reason than to make him more interesting to play.

Volt needs higher sprint speed, lower Strength scaling on Speed, and base Volt needs a touch more armor and a larger energy pool.  Adjustments to his Discharge aren't looking promising just yet, and it's going to take quite a bit to replace the Speed build for some people (I hate it, but I'm not all Volt players in the game).

Ash concerns me.  Where Volt need Capacitance for any decent Discharge-centered build, Ash REQUIRES augments for his teleport and shuriken abilities.  I'm not a fan of required augments.

I know people will point out that Ash can benefit from the bleed procs on his shurikens and that the teleport allows for quick finisher attacks without the augments, but realistically this is just a costly bleed proc or a silly movement power without the benefit of the attached augments.  In this case, it's not that the augments are powerful, but rather that the abilities are not.  Not too sure if this is what a 'Frame should require in order to be played: an entire mod slot devoted to an augment that doesn't even come with the base 'Frame.

Eh, I can wait and see about some of these, but Ember is hurting.

You are "spot on" with Volt suggestions.  Frames are the sizzle but the steak is in weapons.  We knew end of year 1 that more damage from frame powers was getting paradigm shifted out of the game...

Increasing Discharge damage at close range at the expense of stun duration and damage range seems like fool's gold...antiquated fool's gold.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73