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I'm LOVING the sound of the Zephyr changes, bringing my baby back in line with other frames. I was kind of hoping for a passive change, because slow-falling is cool sometimes, but hazardous most of the time. The easiest fix I can think of that keeps the passive is that her first airborne Tailwind cast is free, giving you a fast, safe form of landing, whilst giving her back her old mobility supremacy. Maybe add that into an augment? Either way, the fact that theyre reducing energy costs should keep me happy as-is. Maybe I can shift my build away from efficiency and add some damage or mobility in elsewhere, now.

Edited by ospreyfox
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6 minutes ago, lucasmolla said:

 

  • Chroma
    • It´s a solo frame, giving him an "better aura", i´ts a bad idea, because we could not invest on power strenght and continuity if we need range. Will kill this warframe. Chroma it´s not a good support. Tank plus damage, have made your way on the best warframes. A rework about that factor is the future. We need mobility not a nerf.
  • Zephyr
    • Why not invert the ultimate of Atlas like his conclave effect? Transforming on a rumbler. It´s one of the best design ideas for a ultimate, the rumblers are stupid and have some of the worst AI i have saw. They don´t help, and if help it´s luck. If add that the frame will be more than awsome!

Chroma: GOT a mobility buff for his Scream. He can burn stuff faster, now. He was OP before, they're bringing him in line with other top damagers and giving him a teamplay aspect, not dumping him down to support level.

Zephyr: I prefer tornadoes.

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Please for the love of all that is holy, if you're going to nerf banshee and ember's aoe, please fix uranus defense at the same time, not after. That mission is a nightmare having to hunt down the 2-3 enemies that always get stuck in some S#&$ty corner at the end of every wave even with their abilities. Considering how often Neo endless def spawns there its going to be hell once they've been nerfed.

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ZEPHYR

Tail Wind - Combined into a single ability with Dive Bomb. Can be charge cast on the ground, launching Zephyr into the air where she then hovers. In the air, Tail Wind still flies in whatever direction you’re looking, and Dive Bomb activates if cast while looking straight down.

 

Why not make Zephyr's Tailwind act like it does now, with the added dive bomb mechanics while also resetting aimglide duration.  Adjust her passive so she doesn't lose altitude while she aimglides and has perfect directional control with an increased duration.   This will give Zephyr more fluidity in her ability to maneuver while in the air by allowing her to "hover" at a distance the player chooses instead of a static altitude set by power duration.  This would also allow her to "fly" kinda in a way that's both useful and different from Titania's.

Edited by (PS4)Gangalito
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I'm worried Ember is not going to have any range anymore with this nerf, you only get 21 meters with stretch so if the ability is at 100% that would mean u'll get 10,5 meters if range, that's literally nothing and it will nerf Embers survivability because of it

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7 hours ago, POIKILO said:

Yeah, some of us have.

  • WoF's damage decreases with range - the most damage is dealt in close proximity to Ember, and enemies on the furthest edge of WoF barely get tickled. CC and original range is preserved.
  • WoF deals no damage at all, but keeps original range and CC function.
  • I'm sure there are more suggestions within the 119+ pages but I'm not done reading.

The biggest issue Ember fans have is what is being done to Ember's CC and her survivability - many don't care about the damage WoF deals because it's not used for killing things in high level content. Others players have issues about AFK WoF Embers and speedrunner Embers - it's an unfortunate part of having a game based on a grindy system. If it bleeds, people will cheese it. It's unavoidable. People will find ways to make the grind more bearable. If Ember goes down, people will use other means of cheesing it. That being said, there are better ways of balancing things out but Ember's WoF nerf is anything but a positive rework. That's why the community is providing feedback and suggestions so hopefully we can balance Ember in a way that is good for low and high level content.

Reworks must be well-thought out and tested to make gameplay enjoyable. In order for that to happen though DE needs to listen to their players and not a vocal minority because really, how is that fair? That, and they should test more before releasing changes and then sending out a bunch of hotfixes. It'd save them a lot of work in the long run.

 

so... this is why I said what I did. Take Ember anywhere on the star chart and she kicks &#! - CC or not - without using her weapons much. Now, the star chart is where the story unfolds, where most players get their loot and so on (even here Embers opt for a full rewards rotation, not many cycles of it). So it makes sense for her - or any other warframe - to be balanced around it.

Don't jump at my throat just yet! 

High level content is a different goose in a different basket. It is the cause of the "illness". The way the difficulty scales is not compatible with the variety of warframes and weapons that can be thrown against it. Like you said, people will find a way to cheese throw, leading to other warframes getting balanced for the star-chart content.

Ember's devastating power on low-to-mid tier missions has little to do with the game being grindy. You don't seem to care much about it, but you also are too focuse on the Ember nerf to talk about what really causes this tear between the star chart adventures and the long endless mission runs. Which is the blunt enemy scaling.

If us, the community, would've filled half of these 120 pages discussing that (and coming up with some incremental way of improving the end-game experience) instead of arguing over the colour of the duct tape that NEEDS to be applied to the warframes so they won't fall apart when facing the root of the problem... then we might've gotten somwhere.

The way it looks now is this: the game is grindy (all endless games are), but otherwise good. There are players who enjoy (and only focus) grinding harder in high level missions that don't bother nor care about the mid level experience (unless they have to cheese through, which they don't).

The reality is that, running a mission should provide a challenge and an adequate reward regardless of level and no single frame should be able to cheese through ALONE. Otherwise, the whole star-chart becomes a tutorial area. 

Only ramping up the armor, shields and hitpoints of the enemies as the difficulty increases will never lead to anything good for the star chart (again, our "world", not the tutorial section), not with the variety of frames, weapons and mods.

Maybe the devs are, like the Ember groupies, too attached to their high level - bunker-grade gear, but peanut-size brains - mobs. So much so, that they would rather tweak anything else in the game to save them from a rework.

If not all warframes can solo high level content, then maybe none should. But if the high level content is just a time (and bullets) sink, then maybe IT should not be. Sorties happen once per day and the rewards don't scale with the difficulty (same AABC). 

I say 'World on fire' should be that. On fire. Not "Words of cinders". With all the mobs' panic from being roasted. Untouched range and energy cost, but affected by obstacles (and walls! - 'cause it's fire, not gamma rays). But above all else, I'll say:

DE, please take away our foes' bunkers from their shoulders and bless'em with a brain (so they can team up more efficiently and learn to use the mods they carry)!

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1 hour ago, theEota said:

all this talk about the nerfs make me not want to buy the prime pack, I don't want to spend the extra 20 dollars getting her if shes going to be un-fun. 

Mesa's weapon jamming is fun. Ember turning on WoF and strolling to extraction is dull, in my opinion. But if that's what you consider fun... or like a team mate said on a Pluto defense yesterday, "I like Ember now. I turn on WoF and then I can watch some anime on the other screen"... then I can understand why the nerf will make her "un-fun" :)

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I must say, as someone who mains Ember Prime, I'm very disappointed by this nerf of World on Fire, especially as my favorite game type is infected survival. There are several other frames I enjoy, but World on Fire gets me right in my pyromaniac tendencies. Although I mainly only run her to level equipment within a decent time frame considering the lack of time I have to enjoy Warframe, it's still a heavy blow.

At higher levels, all WoF really does is keep away the little stuff while you mow everything else down with weapons.

While I do, indeed, see the point about denying other players opportunity to make their own kills, it'll still lessen my enjoyment of the frame itself.

Edited by Chaoticist
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6 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

-

High level content is a different goose in a different basket. It is the cause of the "illness". The way the difficulty scales is not compatible with the variety of warframes and weapons that can be thrown against it. Like you said, people will find a way to cheese throw, leading to other warframes getting balanced for the star-chart content.

Ember's devastating power on low-to-mid tier missions has little to do with the game being grindy. You don't seem to care much about it, but you also are too focuse on the Ember nerf to talk about what really causes this tear between the star chart adventures and the long endless mission runs. Which is the blunt enemy scaling.

If us, the community, would've filled half of these 120 pages discussing that (and coming up with some incremental way of improving the end-game experience) instead of arguing over the colour of the duct tape that NEEDS to be applied to the warframes so they won't fall apart when facing the root of the problem... then we might've gotten somwhere.

-

The reality is that, running a mission should provide a challenge and an adequate reward regardless of level and no single frame should be able to cheese through ALONE. Otherwise, the whole star-chart becomes a tutorial area. 

Only ramping up the armor, shields and hitpoints of the enemies as the difficulty increases will never lead to anything good for the star chart (again, our "world", not the tutorial section), not with the variety of frames, weapons and mods.

-

But above all else, I'll say:

DE, please take away our foes' bunkers from their shoulders and bless'em with a brain (so they can team up more efficiently and learn to use the mods they carry)!

I actually do agree with you that blunt enemy scaling is a core issue. Like you said, the exponential increases in enemy armor/shields/hp just isn't good beause it doesn't give the sense of a good challenge - we can run an exterminate on Mercury and then run an exterminate on Saturn and it feels the same but with slightly higher levels. And then there's the huge discrepancy when you go off the star chart - you are absolutely correct in that the difficulty scaling is incompatible. It'd be fun to have smarter enemies with more diverse fighting strategies rather than what we have now. Enemies like the Nightwatch Corps from the Project Undermine were a nice start, and I like your suggestions of enemy team formations and giving them the ability to use certain mods. Speaking of DE being too attached to their current mobs...look how long it took for them to finally make some changes to the Corpus Nullifiers.

Gonna agree with you on these points - yeah, no single frame should be able to cheese through a mission alone. Missions shouldn't be cheeseable or unbearable whether solo or in a group. Sorties and the like ARE time/bullet sinks but the rewards definitely don't scale with difficulty.

I did mention in a previous post that this system of scaling DE is using is a persistent problem. We're not the only ones who've brought it up before. I agree it absolutely should be addressed and brought up more because DE has been ignoring it for years. I'm frustrated because they probably will continue to ignore it and continue to rework Warframes without fixing the scaling issue. It's like slapping more bandages onto an infected wound.

Please don't accuse me of being too focused on Ember's nerf because let's face it, if DE managed to ignore the blunt enemy scaling for so long perhaps this shouldn't the thread to bring up the issue in. Someone ought to create a mega-thread around this enemy scaling topic because maybe then DE will start to take notice if enough players pitch in. Because, yeah, it really is a big issue!

Edited by POIKILO
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On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Chroma’s usage was already somewhat narrow, so we want him to remain a competitive option for Teralyst damage boosting, while also improving other parts of his kit.

Am I missing something here or is there a reason why Effigy and Elemental Ward are remaining untouched? Why not actually improve the other parts of his kit like this states (and sorry, spectral stream is looking to remain as useless as it's always been.).

Spectral Stream first of all needs to be a one-handed action that you can perform while shooting, reloading, jumping, whatever. Anything else is a massive loss in dps, and thus wouldn't be worth using unless it had a powerful CC or utility effect attached.

Heat breath could create fire hazards on the ground that panic enemies. Cold breath could freeze enemies solid. Electricity = chain lightning. Toxin = AoE poison cloud that slows and deals finisher (asphyxiation) damage based on the enemy's max health. These are just sample ideas. The point is that it has to be worth using and not disrupt the usage of the player's weapons.

Effigy is a completely useless, slow, stationary thing that roars sometimes. Most of the time it seems to do absolutely nothing. First of all make it a proper 'sentry' with an increased threat level to draw enemy fire. Have it absorb incoming damage for a few seconds after casting and add that to its health like other similar abilities. Dropping it in a room full of high level enemies should feel like really hurling a dragon at them!

Maybe defeating enemies near it could level it up somehow. This would fit with the 'dragon's hoard' theme of the credit boost -- feed the beast and it would become more and more powerful. Remember that it has significant drawbacks by reducing Chroma's armor. Just make the reward worth the risk.

Elemental Ward could also be fleshed out for so many more effects that would make the different colors and elements a meaningful decision. How about effects like these on top of what they already give?

Toxin - Additive bonus status chance to your weapons, increased firing rate.

Electric - Energy regen, movement speed bonus.

Heat - Health regen.

Cold - Create a moving snowglobe like eximus units.

Before you say these are too similar to other warframe abilities.. well, duh. He literally uses other warframes as crafting components. It makes sense that he would inherit some of their abilities, but that they would be more powerful versions. He's an 'ancient legend' after all, right? A master of elements should use them better than the other warframes. Furthermore, he represents a certain level of mastery for the player as well, requiring so much of the star chart to be completed.

When all the land is in ruins, Tenno, only Chroma will remain.

I've stayed silent until now on the Chroma nerfs, but I generally remember people saying things like "I'd be fine with him being nerfed, as long as they make him interesting". I understand it requires a lot of work and not only Chroma but almost every weapon in the game as well as warframes are being changed as well. Perhaps in the future, when he is primed, a more in depth and comprehensive look could be taken at Chroma.

Edited by CapnToaster
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2 hours ago, Astro911 said:

Some good changes. Thanks for fixing zephyr. Though i think her 4 is a tad underwhelming still. 

I would call it an adequate skill. It was very useful, lowering incoming dps from enemies, but not allmighty like other frames skill which isn't something needed in this game.

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3 hours ago, CapnToaster said:

Am I missing something here or is there a reason why Effigy and Elemental Ward are remaining untouched? Why not actually improve the other parts of his kit like this states (and sorry, spectral stream is looking to remain as useless as it's always been.).

Spectral Stream first of all needs to be a one-handed action that you can perform while shooting, reloading, jumping, whatever. Anything else is a massive loss in dps, and thus wouldn't be worth using unless it had a powerful CC or utility effect attached.

Heat breath could create fire hazards on the ground that panic enemies. Cold breath could freeze enemies solid. Electricity = chain lightning. Toxin = AoE poison cloud that slows and deals finisher (asphyxiation) damage based on the enemy's max health. These are just sample ideas. The point is that it has to be worth using and not disrupt the usage of the player's weapons.

Effigy is a completely useless, slow, stationary thing that roars sometimes. Most of the time it seems to do absolutely nothing. First of all make it a proper 'sentry' with an increased threat level to draw enemy fire. Have it absorb incoming damage for a few seconds after casting and add that to its health like other similar abilities. Dropping it in a room full of high level enemies should feel like really hurling a dragon at them!

Maybe defeating enemies near it could level it up somehow. This would fit with the 'dragon's hoard' theme of the credit boost -- feed the beast and it would become more and more powerful. Remember that it has significant drawbacks by reducing Chroma's armor. Just make the reward worth the risk.

Elemental Ward could also be fleshed out for so many more effects that would make the different colors and elements a meaningful decision. How about effects like these on top of what they already give?

Toxin - Additive bonus status chance to your weapons, increased firing rate.

Electric - Energy regen, movement speed bonus.

Heat - Health regen.

Cold - Create a moving snowglobe like eximus units.

Before you say these are too similar to other warframe abilities.. well, duh. He literally uses other warframes as crafting components. It makes sense that he would inherit some of their abilities, but that they would be more powerful versions. He's an 'ancient legend' after all, right? A master of elements should use them better than the other warframes. Furthermore, he represents a certain level of mastery for the player as well, requiring so much of the star chart to be completed.

When all the land is in ruins, Tenno, only Chroma will remain.

I've stayed silent until now on the Chroma nerfs, but I generally remember people saying things like "I'd be fine with him being nerfed, as long as they make him interesting". I understand it requires a lot of work and not only Chroma but almost every weapon in the game as well as warframes are being changed as well. Perhaps in the future, when he is primed, a more in depth and comprehensive look could be taken at Chroma.

If he wouldn't have started the adventure overpowered as he was till today, he would not have been nerfed, but shelved.

But I like the suggestions to some extent.

Spectral Scream could have most of those extra effects in a 180* radius in front of him and the current effects at his back.

Elemental ward would give the extra buffs only to the team mates and the radius for it would be not larger than 15m. Energy and health regen wouldn't give more than their aura counterparts do. Now, people will complain about the skill being useless or struggle to adapt at the new situation where Chroma's no longer a solo frame.

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equinox has the same issue with maim that you describe about ember and world on fire... so how come no fix for it? 

 

I stopped playing over this because the ability is so efficient most of the time it was the only frame I could play unless I deliberately wanted to do worse

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7 minutes ago, n3rvz said:

equinox has the same issue with maim that you describe about ember and world on fire... so how come no fix for it? 

 

I stopped playing over this because the ability is so efficient most of the time it was the only frame I could play unless I deliberately wanted to do worse

Equinox has somewhat weaker effect on the mobs, both in terms of damage and CC duration and on top of that, to maintain the range Ember had, you have higher energy upkeep. I tested it in a team with an Ember. It's too late to find alternate targets to distract. Equinox might get a Maim review too, worry not

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36 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Equinox has somewhat weaker effect on the mobs, both in terms of damage and CC duration and on top of that, to maintain the range Ember had, you have higher energy upkeep. I tested it in a team with an Ember. It's too late to find alternate targets to distract. Equinox might get a Maim review too, worry not

I'm not sure how Equinox's damage could be considered weaker than Ember's, unless you're not just building range and efficiency, so you're missing out on some of that sweet, sweet damage storage.

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17 minutes ago, SteamlordD said:

I'm not sure how Equinox's damage could be considered weaker than Ember's, unless you're not just building range and efficiency, so you're missing out on some of that sweet, sweet damage storage.

I tried to play it Ember-style, for comparison reasons. Ember doesn't have a damage storage, but just a CC/dot mechanic. And using only that, with roughly the same range, you have higher upkeep, lower overall damage (through low levels, so no armor to bother Ember either). Also, Maim doesn't get a sudden Accelerant buff when things get tougher, you just use the stored damage, but that takes time to build back up.

From Venus to Sedna, Ember's WoF outperformed Equinox's Maim in both categories - damage and upkeep. It has proved to be more efficient for clean up the first 35ish waves of defense missions at the beginning of the star chart up to easily hold 2 Xini points with minimal gun use and even on Hydron. Equinox died a few times in the attempt to keep up with Ember's limited gun usage and on Hydron it was impossible to just maim the grineer to death (although it was a good enough CC to clear'em out without too many bruises). We didn't try any maxed/meta build for the comparison, but we both went on with just ability related mods and, as I've said the goal was to closely match the range and energy consumption (although, it ended up with Equinox eating up 0.6 en/sec more or so).

Still, both of them can make at least 3 quarters of the star chart trivial in terms of destructive power (with the whole "killing stuff before you see it" bit), so I wouldn't be surprized if Maim gets some rework too :D

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3 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

I tried to play it Ember-style, for comparison reasons. Ember doesn't have a damage storage, but just a CC/dot mechanic. And using only that, with roughly the same range, you have higher upkeep, lower overall damage (through low levels, so no armor to bother Ember either). Also, Maim doesn't get a sudden Accelerant buff when things get tougher, you just use the stored damage, but that takes time to build back up.

From Venus to Sedna, Ember's WoF outperformed Equinox's Maim in both categories - damage and upkeep. It has proved to be more efficient for clean up the first 35ish waves of defense missions at the beginning of the star chart up to easily hold 2 Xini points with minimal gun use and even on Hydron. Equinox died a few times in the attempt to keep up with Ember's limited gun usage and on Hydron it was impossible to just maim the grineer to death (although it was a good enough CC to clear'em out without too many bruises). We didn't try any maxed/meta build for the comparison, but we both went on with just ability related mods and, as I've said the goal was to closely match the range and energy consumption (although, it ended up with Equinox eating up 0.6 en/sec more or so).

Still, both of them can make at least 3 quarters of the star chart trivial in terms of destructive power (with the whole "killing stuff before you see it" bit), so I wouldn't be surprized if Maim gets some rework too :D

Ah, it was sort of a controlled test. Ideally with Maim, you want maximized range and efficiency, and you don't build any strength, because the damage storage is how it really shines. Any damage that you and your teammates deal is thrown into the bucket, and you tap 4 again to blow 200k every 15 seconds or so, after shooting a couple dudes.

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I see the positive change as well as the negative . Positive change being volt doing more damage like he used to when he was primed way back when and fixing chromas damage buff for vex armor (it was broken) . But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves. yes embers 4th is amazing but as you said anything lvl 30 and higher her damage drop off is crazy its like shocking the enemy with volt it does little to no damage . The reason i say that the problem is the player is simple. lets do some Warframe history of nerfs shall we. the synoid gammacore was easily the strongest gun in the game.then there was ash. or as i call him Killer Prime. then there was mesa and mag. then Ash again. Then trinity. then valkyr. Now ash again Everything strong and great gets Nerfed And now you put ember on the chopping block along with banshees augment.  when is it going to be enough if yall keep nerfing whats good about the game and what vets worked hard for your going to end up with an unplayable game. the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing thus. the frames are not to blame here. these new players or uninformed vets of the game are to blame. they could easily ask for build advice find out what cards we use to get the frames the way we do and most vets would pass on the knowledge even if they didnt have the cards there are ways to get them. they could stop running with randoms and join or make a clan and recruit ppl so the always have a squad I think that would solve alot of the issues we see in regards to frame and weapon nerfs.  I would Gladly post my build here for all to see if that would mean ember doesnt get nerfed and id explain why i did it

 

 

TLDR

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42 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing

Yeah, just remove the afk penalty and new players can take a nap while the game plays itself, thanks to the huge variety of mods that allow some warframes' abilities to stretch further than the eyes can see.

44 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves

You're right here. If players wouldn't use those two skills (me included) as brooms to sweep up low-end content (up to some 40ish level), then there would be no need to nerf'em :D

However, if mobs be smarter and maybe grouped up in teams of sorts, each of them being good at lowering the efficiency of one warframe or another, then we'd be good too - again no need to nerf.

Say, the game registers a lot of heat procs and damage and as such, more frost mobs or nulifiers show up to counter. DE could bring up some commander type unit to shout "Stand your ground!" when Banshees or other players abuse any kind of kd/ragdolling/staggers and so on. Let us play the game the way we see fit, but let the game adapt fast to our 1-button behavior.

But I guess that would still be a "nerf" for some people :D And it's why I wouldn't try, as a dev, to rework the mobs scaling and AI - 'cause people might complain afterwards that the difficulty is too high and the grind is too slow. Might as well stick to warframe balances and dumb-as-a-shoe foes :D

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