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16 hours ago, Chaoticist said:

I must say, as someone who mains Ember Prime, I'm very disappointed by this nerf of World on Fire, especially as my favorite game type is infected survival. There are several other frames I enjoy, but World on Fire gets me right in my pyromaniac tendencies. Although I mainly only run her to level equipment within a decent time frame considering the lack of time I have to enjoy Warframe, it's still a heavy blow.

At higher levels, all WoF really does is keep away the little stuff while you mow everything else down with weapons.

While I do, indeed, see the point about denying other players opportunity to make their own kills, it'll still lessen my enjoyment of the frame itself.

i completley agree if they didnt cut the range it would be different

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On ‎2018‎年‎2‎月‎3‎日 at 3:05 AM, PsiWarp said:
    • Zephyr
      • Tornado spawn at crosshair for precision +1, guided Tornadoes +1, Elemental damage type based on highest damage output +1, holding enemies captive consistency +1, 100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1.
        • Holding aim increases steering control for Tornadoes +1! (part 2)

100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1?

No,I don't think it works, just tested minutes ago

Edited by lost_breeze
make the point clearer
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4 minutes ago, lost_breeze said:

100% (livestream confirmation) damage distribution to all enemies trapped +1?

No,I don't think it works, just tested minutes ago

Well it does for me, at least if I shoot my gun into the Tornado, enemies inside take damage.

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6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Q Minor 9 said:

I see the positive change as well as the negative . Positive change being volt doing more damage like he used to when he was primed way back when and fixing chromas damage buff for vex armor (it was broken) . But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves. yes embers 4th is amazing but as you said anything lvl 30 and higher her damage drop off is crazy its like shocking the enemy with volt it does little to no damage . The reason i say that the problem is the player is simple. lets do some Warframe history of nerfs shall we. the synoid gammacore was easily the strongest gun in the game.then there was ash. or as i call him Killer Prime. then there was mesa and mag. then Ash again. Then trinity. then valkyr. Now ash again Everything strong and great gets Nerfed And now you put ember on the chopping block along with banshees augment.  when is it going to be enough if yall keep nerfing whats good about the game and what vets worked hard for your going to end up with an unplayable game. the problem is that new players complaing about the game not being fun because the cant kill things but we have shared affinity so they dont even have to kill as long as they are in range of a player who is actually killing thus. the frames are not to blame here. these new players or uninformed vets of the game are to blame. they could easily ask for build advice find out what cards we use to get the frames the way we do and most vets would pass on the knowledge even if they didnt have the cards there are ways to get them. they could stop running with randoms and join or make a clan and recruit ppl so the always have a squad I think that would solve alot of the issues we see in regards to frame and weapon nerfs.  I would Gladly post my build here for all to see if that would mean ember doesnt get nerfed and id explain why i did it

 

 

TLDR

I totally agree. There are other ways to change the game where the frames does not need to be change.

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2 hours ago, (Xbox One)DarkAng3l8181 said:

I totally agree. There are other ways to change the game where the frames does not need to be change.

Yes! The gane could have sortie-level enemies everywhere! That's the only option that could be deployed fast...but the people would want the frames changed ;)

Sarcasm aside, changing anything else just to keep the brain-afk playstyle of those two frames simply doesn't make sense. And if anyone buys or farms Ember and Banshee, grinds the vaults and fine tunes them just to use one button, ingoring the rest of their kit and their potential... Well, it's like saying "I don't want to change anything about my highly polluting car, because I have installed a very pleasant sound system in it!"

When all the frames have been looked over and adjusted, DE can only do 2 things: 1) release more powerful mods that will again send us into godlyhood versus the mobs... or 2) realize that the major culprits for the whole problem were the enemies and loot scaling and run an overhaul of those.

It's in our nature, I guess, to cuddle up to easy mode...but easy mode in games easily leads to boredom. And improvement can only come through change.

While I agree that Ember might have a hard time in high level content (that will require more fine tunning of her new kit), you seem to be worried only about not being able to cheese through defense mission in a half-afk fashion. And for that to have been addressed without touching the warframes would have required giving the mobs the means to counter the skills (new AI and abilities).

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8 hours ago, (Xbox One)DarkAng3l8181 said:

But with regards to ember and banshee the problem isn't the frame its the players themselves.

I couldn't agree to this more, I for one used her for range and efficiency so that her fourth's agument was effective but now it's just the range is that of a melee attack there's next to no point being her any more. I can no longer use Ember as a utility like I used to (I know this play style's rare but I dislike just having things die around me with no input, especially when they could contribute to my dark daggers red veil prock). As a melee user and an Ember main, I can no longer use both and for this, I am sad.

I really hope that these changes are reconsidered, I want my punk chicken back.

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On February 2, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Cap.Sai said:

You kill Volt :angry:

Yeah, mixed feelings on this, BIGTIME.  Without testing, I can't be sure, so I'll have to try it.

The range fall-off seems like a serious detriment to his squishiness and mobility tactics.

Vets have known for a long time that Volt is is a weapon augment frame that thrives on situational increases in speed and mobility, decreases in enemy mobility, and a dependent ratio of damage avoidance/damage augmentation.

 

I don't see how the TRADE-off of increased, immediate-area damage vs scaling enemies makes him better with the stun-duration and damage fall-off...ESPECIALLY the stun duration.

[It seems like] You've effectively given Volt players a false sense of security mid-game and made it far easier for stronger enemies to kill him when trying to use stun/speed/mobility "close-and-kill" tactics.

So then more emphasis gets put on shields and riot/ shields (still too costly in terms of energy/speed even with reduction) which is ok, EXCEPT:

The entire game has shifted towards rewarding  "move and kill" strategies.

Along with his very slow 1.0 base speed, a large part of his kit, then, is not synergized but further compromised for the pay-off of maybe 10-15 enemy levels worth of kill efficiency.

Volt is now seemingly easier to kill at higher levels AND maintains even LESS squad integrity as Squads move through the map and he struggles to keep up by having to protect himself.

Even with Stationary objectives, increased Aggro from all sides will be incoming and at closer range from stronger enemies.

Proving me wrong would bring joy.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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Tested the new Ash Bladestorm a bit, it's quite hard now to get INTO the bladestorm while jumping\dodging around like crazy (wich I felt like it was Ash Trademark)  if you have to target a marked enemy and cast a teleport ends up being not as easy to survive and less fun to use.

Ideally it would have been better to be able to press 4 again WHILE the bladestorm is going on (no matter wich enemy is targeted) to get into it, at least no matter how crazy dodging you are doing in the meantime you can quickly teleport away from danger instead of getting handled while trying to find a marked target.

Edited by Stenchfury
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Tested Banshee today. The new RQ looks good, but there might be some issues with how the kd and damage functions.

The mission I went to was a defense on Saturn. Same level bombards and ancients displayed different reactions to RQ within the same wave, being hit by RQ from roughly the same distance (I could've scratched their head). Bombards were taking damage ranging from 50% of their hp to barely any damage at all (5%?) and I had one ancient just drop down dead while the others were hardly affected by it. Hell, even 5 chained RQs didn't do the job. And if I would not have seen the others flip like a tree before, I wouldn't thought it's all good. When the grineer were in their 40ish level, an RQ was doing very little other than making them angry.

And here's where I think RQ problem becomes serious: an angry grineer that recovers from a kd in roughly the same amount of time Banshee needs to stand up from punching the ground means TROUBLE. If hit registration works as intended, then RQ won't be able to clear out even the weak mobs (like the Scorpion) and the short kd duration will not help Banshee in her attempt to continue breathing.

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On February 2, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Viquey said:

My biggest concern going into this was the Volt changes--he's mah baby, my CC baby. So I'm most curious about how big a nerf this is to my primary use for him. I use an unusual build, with Overextended for max range and settling for a mere 70% strength--will my playstyle still be viable at all? Or is the stun duration falloff so severe, it'd be pointless? (Feel free to use my account to test that particular build (his loadout's Sahriv)--I'm not sure there exists another Overextended Volt ^^; )

I'm with you.  See my previous post.  It's not even just about losing even more survivability at high levels.  It's about penalizing squad integrity and interrupting the signature speed and combat combo that is Warframe's trademark.  They can use my account...I'm not sure exactly for testing what but don't care.  Volt is my Primary.

My build is a bit more balanced but I use the same philosophy and boost survivability with Capacitance.

Silverback73

PSN North America

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On February 8, 2018 at 4:43 AM, Cytobel said:

Wow, so I've seen quite a few complaints raised over Ember here.  The one thing I can agree to is that all BUT the range reduction would be a feasible answer.  In fact MOST posts that bother to talk about this agree that the range issue is the killer here.  Turning WoF off every so often to reset drain is something that could be done.  As has been repeated ad nauseum however, nerfing range on a (the) survival tool in Ember's kit seems totally excessive.  I would love to see this point of the change leave the table entirely, at least for now.  Ember should also have a bit more added to her toolbox for staying alive, given that her only solution until now was to hide behind Firequake.

As to Chroma, the fix to his damage scaling is just that: a fix, and one that's been a long time in coming.  At the same point I'd like to see some way for Chroma to recieve a bit of something in return.  He's really only able to do the one thing, and no matter how well he does that one thing people would've done other builds if viable.  That's sort of not been a thing for Chroma.  As such, I'd like to see some general utility work done on his other abilities, if for no other reason than to make him more interesting to play.

Volt needs higher sprint speed, lower Strength scaling on Speed, and base Volt needs a touch more armor and a larger energy pool.  Adjustments to his Discharge aren't looking promising just yet, and it's going to take quite a bit to replace the Speed build for some people (I hate it, but I'm not all Volt players in the game).

Ash concerns me.  Where Volt need Capacitance for any decent Discharge-centered build, Ash REQUIRES augments for his teleport and shuriken abilities.  I'm not a fan of required augments.

I know people will point out that Ash can benefit from the bleed procs on his shurikens and that the teleport allows for quick finisher attacks without the augments, but realistically this is just a costly bleed proc or a silly movement power without the benefit of the attached augments.  In this case, it's not that the augments are powerful, but rather that the abilities are not.  Not too sure if this is what a 'Frame should require in order to be played: an entire mod slot devoted to an augment that doesn't even come with the base 'Frame.

Eh, I can wait and see about some of these, but Ember is hurting.

You are "spot on" with Volt suggestions.  Frames are the sizzle but the steak is in weapons.  We knew end of year 1 that more damage from frame powers was getting paradigm shifted out of the game...

Increasing Discharge damage at close range at the expense of stun duration and damage range seems like fool's gold...antiquated fool's gold.

 

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I'm with you.  See my previous post.  It's not even just about losing even more survivability at high levels.  It's about penalizing squad integrity and interrupting the signature speed and combat combo that is Warframe's trademark.  They can use my account...I'm not sure exactly for testing what but don't care.  Volt is my Primary.

My build is a bit more balanced but I use the same philosophy and boost survivability with Capacitance.

Silverback73

PSN North America

Same here.

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Because my main frame is Ember Prime I tested the changes today and I must say that the range nerf is too high. As you devs said Ember is not strong frame to play with on higher levels so we players had to compensate this with high range and knock back augment so we can survive and keep enemies at bay until we kill them with weapons. High range is what keeps ember alive and valid frame and not her world of fire ult which is rather weak on higher levels.  Now even the double damage is not enough to stay alive because frame is still squishy and with halved range we need to stay to close to the enemy to apply that damage. What we need is to you increase toughness of the frame or to reduce the range nerf.

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4 hours ago, Strajder said:

Because my main frame is Ember Prime I tested the changes today and I must say that the range nerf is too high. As you devs said Ember is not strong frame to play with on higher levels so we players had to compensate this with high range and knock back augment so we can survive and keep enemies at bay until we kill them with weapons. High range is what keeps ember alive and valid frame and not her world of fire ult which is rather weak on higher levels.  Now even the double damage is not enough to stay alive because frame is still squishy and with halved range we need to stay to close to the enemy to apply that damage. What we need is to you increase toughness of the frame or to reduce the range nerf.

I haven't yet tested any of the rework yet, (XboxOne) but the range nerf was my primary concern aside from her needing more damage to be effective at higher levels. 

I basically have 3 Ember builds which are: 

1. More power strength (130%-145%) for extra damage, efficiency (130%), and mods for speed and bullet jumping. This is for clearing low levels quickly and efficiently. 

2. High damage (155%+), high efficiency (160%), maybe an augment mod, and then mods for increased shields and health. Mid level defense missions. 

3. More power strength (130%), maximum efficiency (175%), mods for more speed and shields, and finally the WoF augment for knocking enemies down. Survival missions and high level content. 

So, as you can see Ember easily clears lower levels and also can CC higher levels effectively with her augment. Really the only problems with her are her "squishyness" and her "black and white" approach to combat in that she either completely destroys all opposition (low level) or she tickles enemies to death (high level) and becomes more of a liability to a squad unless she is uses a mandatory augment mod. 

This change of more damage, and decreases in both range and efficiency destroys being able to both clear low level content and to effectively CC. 

In these two cases of allowing other players to get kills besides the one Ember in the squad during low level missions and maintaining survivability during high level content, DE could have simply decreased the damage of WoF and increased the damage of her other abilities and perhaps added more synergy between abilities when combined with WoF. 

Only time will tell what state our Fire Chicken ends up in, medium or burned to a crisp. 

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9 hours ago, (Xbox One)ZenithLord 42 said:

In these two cases of allowing other players to get kills besides the one Ember in the squad during low level missions and maintaining survivability during high level content, DE could have simply decreased the damage of WoF and increased the damage of her other abilities and perhaps added more synergy between abilities when combined with WoF. 

What happened to Ember and Banshee is our own fault. Of course, the problem could've been countered by changing the enemy AI, mechanics and scaling (which, one day, will HAVE to happen). To keep consistent with her theme, the damage needs to be high, stuff must burn, but not the whole world, regardless of the ability's name ;) They could maybe just integrate the augument into the skill (the kd)? And make a new aug that applies corrosion to enemies caught by WoF.

And I think DE did that with the other abilities.

7 hours ago, FlareFluffsune said:

Wow thanks, I really enjoy having my solo frame nerfed. I've been playing Ember ever since I first started playing this game and found her fitting for my soloing. What a load of bunk.

And I BET you were only playing alone on Ember! Or maybe joining public missions and imagining you're alone :cool:

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13 hours ago, (Xbox One)ZenithLord 42 said:

I haven't yet tested any of the rework yet, (XboxOne) but the range nerf was my primary concern aside from her needing more damage to be effective at higher levels. 

I basically have 3 Ember builds which are: 

1. More power strength (130%-145%) for extra damage, efficiency (130%), and mods for speed and bullet jumping. This is for clearing low levels quickly and efficiently. 

2. High damage (155%+), high efficiency (160%), maybe an augment mod, and then mods for increased shields and health. Mid level defense missions. 

3. More power strength (130%), maximum efficiency (175%), mods for more speed and shields, and finally the WoF augment for knocking enemies down. Survival missions and high level content. 

So, as you can see Ember easily clears lower levels and also can CC higher levels effectively with her augment. Really the only problems with her are her "squishyness" and her "black and white" approach to combat in that she either completely destroys all opposition (low level) or she tickles enemies to death (high level) and becomes more of a liability to a squad unless she is uses a mandatory augment mod. 

This change of more damage, and decreases in both range and efficiency destroys being able to both clear low level content and to effectively CC. 

In these two cases of allowing other players to get kills besides the one Ember in the squad during low level missions and maintaining survivability during high level content, DE could have simply decreased the damage of WoF and increased the damage of her other abilities and perhaps added more synergy between abilities when combined with WoF. 

Only time will tell what state our Fire Chicken ends up in, medium or burned to a crisp. 

As I said I tested ember almost all day yesterday in various missions from low to high and even the triple damage boost would not be enough because of the halved range on higher levels. As we said she is too squishy, high level enemies (50+ lvl) one shot her instantly and only thing we could do to counter that is to use high range and Firequake augment so we can keep then at bay and kill them with weapons because the damage of WoF is also low for the high level missions. Because of this Ember was a very welcome frame in high level missions, she didn't apply high damage but rather knock back enemies so the entire team had enough time to clear mobs with weapons. Reducing the range now basically renders Ember useless for the high level missions. 

So as I said in my previous post devs need to boost her toughness considerably so she can withstand high level enemies to be able to get close to them to counter halved range and to be able to effectively apply WoF and to increase the damage apply speed of WoF or to remove range nerf and double the cost of the WoF.

What I find it to be so stupid is to nerf ember only because some players didn't like how ember clears low level missions. Ember was perfectly fine before the nerf, she excels at low level missions while she is not that good for high level missions but with her high range and knock back augment she can be a good support frame for crowd controlling.

Edited by Strajder
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I agree completely Strajder! Her usefulness in high level missions is all about WoF and her Firequake augment. 

From what I've heard from you and other Tenno on PC, I think the nerf to her range is absurd! 

There are five things I always have wished were additions to her kit that would have made her perfect to me would be: 

1. a charge for more damage for her #1 (which we now have on Ember and Madurai focus), 

2. a damage multiplier when Accelerant is cast again on the same enemies, 

3. a chance to apply heat damage to weapons when shot from inside Ember's Fire Blast with the same chance also applying to increasing the damage of weapons that already have heat damage, 

4. damage scaling for World on Fire that is dependent on enemy level (I don't really like this idea, but it would reduce the number of kills on lower levels and increase the number of kills on higher ones (that's actual balance, DE, the world is on fire not just the area around her)), 

5. and two additions to her passive; more power strength and damage resistance while on fire. 

I agree also with you, Strajder, that the range nerf should not have happened because of lower level players who aren't playing Ember not getting kills. 

It was also a poor move and a genius one on DE's part right at the time of her unvaulting. It is a poor move because it really hurts the frame in general. It's a genius idea because of so many new players joining now because of the Prime Unvaulting and possibly adding to player retention so that everyone can get kills and not be "OP" right out of the box... 

 

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On 2/12/2018 at 1:24 AM, Himenoinu said:

What happened to Ember and Banshee is our own fault. Of course, the problem could've been countered by changing the enemy AI, mechanics and scaling (which, one day, will HAVE to happen). To keep consistent with her theme, the damage needs to be high, stuff must burn, but not the whole world, regardless of the ability's name ;) They could maybe just integrate the augument into the skill (the kd)? And make a new aug that applies corrosion to enemies caught by WoF.

And I think DE did that with the other abilities.

I don't care for this "our fault" logic. People just used the power. Its only our fault if we don't offer suggestions, improvements or tradeoffs.

Scaling and enemy spawns also used to be higher actually. DE lowered enemy spawns, seemingly for soft XP nerfing and oxygen capsule nerfing, as opposed to adjusting xp numbers. Probably fearing the likes of Viver backlash. I presume XP is also why start chart enemy levels are pretty low too, outside of the likes of sorties.

Edited by UrielColtan
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6 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

I don't care for this "our fault" logic. People just used the power. Its only our fault if we don't offer suggestions, improvements or tradeoffs.

Scaling and enemy spawns also used to be higher actually. DE lowered enemy spawns, seemingly for soft XP nerfing and oxygen capsule nerfing, as opposed to adjusting xp numbers. I presume XP is also why enemy scaling is pretty low too, outside of the likes of sorties.

 I agree. DE dug this hole themselves and now we're paying the price for it. If the scaling wasnt so damn wonky we would not be having these problems.

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