Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Maka.Bones]

I actually agree that eber was already kinda crap, but I still liked her anyway. Pls check out my ideas for an ember rework thou, and comment/suggest your own ideas if you have any! I'd like to see her more usable for higher content. ^^

 

 

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Have we come to this circle again...like when Overheat was removed from Ember?

 

Maybe World On Fire should be replaced with Overheat then she will no longer be squishy and combined with Accelerant she would still do damage but have to work for it.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah it wasn't near as good as the CC of other frames, but had the benefit of being automated so you could focus purely on gunplay and such.  They're removing that tho.  So yeah.  There is no point then.

the nerf wouldn't have been as bad, if they lowered the damage, and energy cost, but kept the range intact. Would still allow WoF to be used as CC, so she would be survivable, and wouldn't kill-steal. The only reason the new change is even a nerf tbh, is because it directly nerfs her augment that makes her survivable. 

[Maka.Bones]

I actually like the direction of ember's change, but I don't think she's "fixed"... I honestly think she needs a rework. Pls check out my post, and comment your thoughts! 

 

 

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Neat! But sadly I must now judge you and declare that we are enemies!

 

(I think that Deluxe skin is kinda ugly.)

 

Whoops:

 

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(Correct, I don't even own any Raid Arcanes.)

(No Corrupted Mods, no Quick Thinking)

 

 

My MAN!  I fellow Gas builds user.  I like your style.  They just don't know the POWER of the GAS side. *insert Darth Vader meme here*    Mwuhahahahahahaha.   

[ChromaUmbra]

Look at the FAQ in the bottom of the first post in the workshop thread:

"Q: What is the new formula for damage and armor calculation?
A: Instead of [(Base * Mods) * Vex Armor], it is now [Base * (Vex + Mods)], like all other damage boosting abilities."

[Maka.Bones]

@Glavenusaur  agree with you about DE having some of the best devs/team in most games atm. I love how they constantly update things, and bring new content. But I also agree with & see where @Choralone42  is coming from. I don't want to sacrifice another player's experience for my ease/fun, nor do I wan to be constantly grinding tedious & sometimes poorly rewarding content (some plains missions, I.E... or getting kuva from sorties xD)  There needs to be a balance, kept in mind. Mainly, for fun's sake. It's not ok to punish one player, to make another happy, if it's possible to make both of them happy, while DE would still profit. 

[AynalSamurai]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Tail Wind - Combined into a single ability with Dive Bomb. Can be charge cast on the ground, launching Zephyr into the air where she then hovers. In the air, Tail Wind still flies in whatever direction you’re looking, and Dive Bomb activates if cast while looking straight down.

So does this mean that Zephyr's passive will stop being broken? Currently her passive is deactivated after tail wind is cast, making it so she doesn't glide through the air after using her main movement ability. It makes her current tail wind literally useless compared to bullet jumping (which doesn't slow down momentum or disable her passive)

[Maka.Bones]

21 hours ago, Prince-of-Space said:

You're looking at this from the point of view of a high level player. 

Some of us would like to play ember on high lvl content too... although, I do like DE's initiative with these changes. But I also think mag's changes aren't enough either... I'm just not sure how to approach it, besides making her magnetize inescapable. Maybe give her an evasion passive/buff? where bullets have a % to swirve away from her...

 

Please check out some of my ideas which would make her scale better for end-game content, while not making easy content too easy. She would be more focused on high single-target damage, and larger CC abilities/capacity. With *some* burst AoE capacity.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Also, I think mag's abilites are wayyy too expensive for beginner players. A good starter cast-frame should have cheap/efficient abilities to cast, a way to replenish energy, and reliable crowd control... which neither mag, nor ember have. Maybe trinity though...?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[PatternistSlave]

18 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

the nerf wouldn't have been as bad, if they lowered the damage, and energy cost, but kept the range intact. Would still allow WoF to be used as CC, so she would be survivable, and wouldn't kill-steal. The only reason the new change is even a nerf tbh, is because it directly nerfs her augment that makes her survivable. 

Nerfing the range even wouldn't matter.  You can actually build too much range on her currently for survival because it messes with the spawning.  If they just kept her energy cost intact it'd be fine.

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Nerfing the range even wouldn't matter.  You can actually build too much range on her currently for survival because it messes with the spawning.  If they just kept her energy cost intact it'd be fine.

That's a good point; upvoted. I don't really build ember for range, as my build has no space for it/wasn't needed.... So i wasn't aware it messed with spawns. The energy cost though, yeah I'm with you there. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Winterbraid]

Right now, Chroma at 299% power strength can get up to 523% Fury. After the proposed changes it will essentially function as a damage mod on your weapon.

A rifle with Serration and Heavy Caliber deals 100%+165%+165%=430% base damage. The new Vex Armor will turn that into 430%+523%=953%, which is an effective multiplier of 2.22x.

Rhino at 299% power strength provides an overall 150% bonus damage after mods are taken into account, which translates to an effective multiplier of 2.5x.

So I sure am hoping those numbers change before the update hits or else we'll end up basically with a worse Rhino that provides an inferior weapon buff, doesn't affect most abilities, comes with an awkward mechanic, and grants extra armor that will only really benefit the already tanky frames (who probably don't need it in the first place).

[IceColdHawk]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Caelward:

You might think that melee is her weakness, but it's explosive weapons that'll smash her dead without you realizing what happened.

But they don't smash you dead when turbulence reflects them. Slot in enough range and you reflect them early enough that they can't explode in a radius that could harm you.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Caelward:

Turbulence allows more shots to actually hit you from underneath. It is a fantastic defense, but it isn't perfect.

That isn't true. It still reflects bullets, rockets, etc. from enemies STRAIGHT below you. I've just tested it even for confirmation. Imagine turbulence like a LARGER snowglobe that can't get destroyed and reflects projectiles but instead doesn't slow or stop enemies from getting near you.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Caelward:

Hovering means holding still and this is the last thing I ever want to do with Zephyr. I'm not saying everyone should agree with me, but I don't like it. If I wanted to stay still and act like a turret, I'd play Mesa.

That's fine and up for personal preference. Anyway, i was just pointing out that it has a use. And it does. 

[DroopingPuppy]

Is there anyone that remember the day when Ember needs to recast if repeatedly, and can't do much? I fear that the it would be returned.

 

And, personal score for a single game does not proves anything. Usually it only reflects your skills, your weapons and how much enemy you have encountered, etc, and don't count on the situations of your teammates. I bet that the most experienced and rich players can beat many typical players even if they uses Atlas, Ash or Zephyr.

Also I don't think that Mag is bad that much for experienced players, at least for sortie level. Mag is bad because she is a starting warframe but she is not acceptable for her place; she needs for skills and enough mods to be functional, and she is a specialist, not an all-rounder, so both problems means newbies should avoid her. I think that Mag is a so-so warframe, but not suited for starter is the root of her bad reputation than her endgame performance(at least she is a Grineer specialist and playable endgame frame, you know).

You know, no one blames Saryn for her reliance to mods, but Mag does, because you have to deal with Kela de Thaym of Sedna to get Saryn and you should get enough mods to feed her needs, but you can either get Mag at the start or get it by The Sergeant. You can acquire the new warframe when you are ready. But newbies are have to stick to their starting warframe for a while until they reach to Jupiter and get some Neural Sensors to make the second or third warframe. I don't think that Mag is good, or at least competitive with Excalibur and Volt in this period.

Everything is good or at least playable for the experienced players, although in the most times there are the better choices, but the experienced players are able to make up the flaws by their own skills or their resources gathered through their gameplay. However, newbie Tenno are not have such pool of mods, and even for the experienced FPS players they are yet to master Warframe's control mechanism(and we can't expect most newbies are experienced FPS players either). And being a first frame that needs to stick with, the frame needs to be an all rounder warframe that works at most situation, even consider they don't needs to be best.

[PikeOrShield]

I think people are up in arms about it because it doesn't actually address her problems very well.  Most people would say her problems are: 1) poor scaling into late game and 2) stomping anything below lvl 50.

Will the change to her 4 make her good at end game content?  Probably not, even though x2 damage helps, armor scaling on enemies can easily negate most of it.

Will the change to her 4 make her not stomp anything below lvl 50?  This mostly depends on how fast the range decreases.  While it's annoying to recast, it's still an auto targeting ability that can be on all the time with a proper build.

The devs said they were looking at her other abilities, so hopefully she comes out better than she is now.  I'm hoping they throw out her horrible passive as well and give her something useful.

[Duduminador]

Yes. Why not buff every other frame in game instead of nerfing the most powerfull ones?

No... wait. We tried that already. Warframe became the DPS S.h.i.t.fest it is now...

Edited February 4, 2018 by Duduminador

[Himenoinu]

7 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

If I listen to the Devstream I hear pandering to endlessly whining children who pick ill-begotten fault with something for which they don't have an accurate view.

 

The range is neither relevant nor outstanding already. At the enemy levels in question, an Ignis with Sinister Reach and Firetorm slotted can do everything Ember can with no Warframe input. Add on self-buffs and we're going beyond the point of permanent World On Fire instantly killing, for just as cheap energy investments and just as full consistency.

 

World on Fire is less effective at similar ranges when compared to any number of AOE damage abilities. The difference of it being a channeled ability is immaterial; these 'arguments' being raised are in conflict with the behaviour already displayed in previous balance changes.

Did Simulor Mirage press one button and parkour though the level? No, those degenerates clicked mindlessly as they went and recast their 1 occasionally. Did that necessity to press the button more than once make it any less problematic of gameplay? No.

Ergo, the channeled consistency of WoF does not matter. Easy clearing is achievable with other frames just as well, but the unwashed masses, in their subjective and narrow view of the world, parasitically attached themselves to one inconsequential difference to target their ire until DE finally caved in.

 

Ember didn't need a nerf. World on Fire didn't need a nerf. But a rebalance would be fine if they actually balanced the books on the changes instead of leaving us with 12.5% of the effective volume with no compensation.

So, I should spec for max range ignis and always carry it with me, just in case I pug with a "press 4 and brain-afk" Ember. Ignis is a broken weapon, btw, when you can scorch the enemy through walls and even solid rock (was laughing at it in a defense map on Venus). I mean, some of the Ember players' behavior is so entrenched on mindlessly using WoF, that I had one wiping the team and the escavators repeatedly on a sortie with radiation hazard.

Now regarding your last paragraph, any warframe that can clear an Io or Akkad map with one ability is overpowered and needs to have that skill - and possibly its synergies within the kit - looked at.

Banshee's resonating quake is currently rendered pretty useless, her unmodded skill has the mechanical and destructive effect of throwing a shoe towards the enemies head, while her kit lacks any viable damaging capabilities and sports no syngergies at all.

Equinox and Ember are the other two frames that I played that need more attention.

To avoid Ember's WoF negative impact on gameplay (not afkplay), the easiest solution (true to what Banshee got) would've been to make the skill unspammable targeted with an aoe of 25m, with short duration and extra effects (like corrosive ticks) poured in for good measure, to "better control a choke point". But it's not what happened. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but skill synergies do exist in Ember's kit and WoF did receive a damage buff at a now upkeep cost of... 6en/sec - which is easily manageable given she's mobile at all times. 15 meters radius is still big enough to hold any tower (true, not all 4 at once), defend any objective and still annoy any player looking to smash or shoot things in run&gun mission types. WoF is still a very powerfull ability, usable and abusable. It can get better (if, say, the accelerant would synergize with WoF's range and effects).

Lastly, people pointing out Ember's frailty should check the only frame they despise (yeah, the one that had a bigger d...amage area). Stats and skill kit, both pre and especially post-changes, make Banshee the favorite loser in a survival challenge. 

I'll leave Equinox be, even if her Maim had the exact kill-joy mechanic and range as Ember's WoF

[CarrotSalad]

Sad that volts treatment was for his ultimate and not his first ability...
I used to love spamming his 1 shooting enemies right infront of me.. He felt like an interactive caster frame that didnt need to rely on gunplay. His 4th ability is also doesnt feel satisfying not because it lacks damage but because they nerfed the particle physx.

I wish more frames had 1st abilities like Atlas, Wukong and Saryn

Sad I didnt see Wukong on this list either.. His 1st ability needs some actual visual representation and a range increase. His 4th ability also needs a bit more added to it.

[badants1]

I think having the hover is good but making the animation her flapping would be more fitting that just sat there in the air that breaks all immersion when playing 

[atejas]

3 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

His 4th ability also needs a bit more added to it.

I'd like the stance to be reworked so it's a little more fluid and fun. Primal Rage should also add upto flat 100 cc rather than 100% of current cc imo

[Maka.Bones]

Spoiler

28 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Is there anyone that remember the day when Ember needs to recast if repeatedly, and can't do much? I fear that the it would be returned.

 

And, personal score for a single game does not proves anything. Usually it only reflects your skills, your weapons and how much enemy you have encountered, etc, and don't count on the situations of your teammates. I bet that the most experienced and rich players can beat many typical players even if they uses Atlas, Ash or Zephyr.

Also I don't think that Mag is bad that much for experienced players, at least for sortie level. Mag is bad because she is a starting warframe but she is not acceptable for her place; she needs for skills and enough mods to be functional, and she is a specialist, not an all-rounder, so both problems means newbies should avoid her. I think that Mag is a so-so warframe, but not suited for starter is the root of her bad reputation than her endgame performance(at least she is a Grineer specialist and playable endgame frame, you know).

You know, no one blames Saryn for her reliance to mods, but Mag does, because you have to deal with Kela de Thaym of Sedna to get Saryn and you should get enough mods to feed her needs, but you can either get Mag at the start or get it by The Sergeant. You can acquire the new warframe when you are ready. But newbies are have to stick to their starting warframe for a while until they reach to Jupiter and get some Neural Sensors to make the second or third warframe. I don't think that Mag is good, or at least competitive with Excalibur and Volt in this period.

Everything is good or at least playable for the experienced players, although in the most times there are the better choices, but the experienced players are able to make up the flaws by their own skills or their resources gathered through their gameplay. However, newbie Tenno are not have such pool of mods, and even for the experienced FPS players they are yet to master Warframe's control mechanism(and we can't expect most newbies are experienced FPS players either). And being a first frame that needs to stick with, the frame needs to be an all rounder warframe that works at most situation, even consider they don't needs to be best.

 

This guy^^^^ Is spot on. Upvoted you sir.

[jiminatorx]

11 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Lastly, people pointing out Ember's frailty should check the only frame they despise (yeah, the one that had a bigger d...amage area). Stats and skill kit, both pre and especially post-changes, make Banshee the favorite loser in a survival challenge.

banshee with savage silence is a favorite frame to tear though adaro because of the stunlock stealth multipliers and silence. energy draw is minimal and it lasts some 50 seconds. ember has nothing remotely similar. firequake was used for protection but with the proposed changes it can no longer be as easily maintained and enemies can easily shoot her outside of the new range.

[PikeOrShield]

The devs are taking another look at all of Ember's abilities, but I really hope they take this chance to look at her passive as well.  Ember's current passive is Ignition.  From the wiki: Ember is empowered by flames. Any time Ember suffers a  Heat proc, she gains 35% Ability Strength for the duration and regenerates 10 points of Energy for every second she is ablaze.

While the numbers look nice on paper, the passive is so inconsistent and enemy dependent that it rarely triggers in game, and when it does a Corrupted Moa or a level 80 cat lady has already melted through your health pool.

Please consider making it something more player controled that doesn't reward getting shot.  Damage warframes like Saryn and Ash have passives that complement their abilities very well.  Give Ember something in the same vein as those two.

Someone else can probably come up with a better passive, but just to throw out an example: Ember receives +3% power strength for each enemy suffering from a heat proc she caused (with weapons or abilities).  Something like this would increase player involvement and complement the fire theme.  It wouldn't be counter intuitive like setting yourself on fire and would be reward players for doing fire stuff with the fire frame.

[Maka.Bones]

Would be cool if they added overheat as her passive. OR since she's supposed to be a phoenix.... why not let her self-res? Would help amend her squish.

Btw, pls check our my rework ideas, and post your own too!

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones