Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Himenoinu]

Banshee's Quake (and its augument) could actually synergize with her Sonar, by having only the targets affected by the initial cast of the Sonar taking increased damage and, when using Resonating, create fixed 10 meters radius quakes under the targets affected by Sonar, that fade out in 5 second and deal diminishing damage (starting at 75% of the initial damage taken by the affected enemy). 

This way, Banshee's quake will never reach further than her unaugumented skill, but won't gather cobwebs eithet. It will remain a potentially devastating ability while requiring active involvement to achieve it. As a bonus, the rest of the team will have an easier life picking off high level targets outside Quake's reach thanks to the constant use of Sonar.

Hell! Quake could actually start at the full strength of the Resonating version and linearly fade off over its range. In this case, Resonating quake would reapply the initial full damage of the skill, with the same fade off mechanic.

[ZodiacShinryu]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:28 PM, Caelward said:

Please don't bother giving me an ability that'll lock me in one spot mid air for anything to shoot.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Reb didn't look locked into the hover. She rolled out and she used her 1 to have it work like it always has. Or look down and do Dive Bomb. If there is an inconsistency with Turbulence that is more prominent because she now can easily stay above her targets then Turbulence's effect radius should be looked at (if it is easier to hit from below then the ability isn't spherical).

27 minutes ago, badants1 said:

I think having the hover is good but making the animation her flapping would be more fitting that just sat there in the air that breaks all immersion when playing 

It was a work in progress build. They could still add animations. However I don't know how that breaks immersion considering the moment she tried to aim any weapons (the only point to add hovering) she would start falling and in the demo Reb shot 3 Lenz shots without such. That being said should her deluxe skin ever get finished, it had energy wings that could be animated to flutter while she hovers.

[Tengetsu96]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

This build proves the point that Ember's kit isn't worth using because it's min/maxed for survivability at the expense of Ember's kit.

And it's a build that's going to eat it hardcore if you run into a Leech/Parasitic Eximus (or have an Eximus Stronghold sortie).  By the way, use Hunter Adrenaline instead of Rage because Hunter Adrenaline is a strictly better Rage.

I used a basic set of mods to show that her abilities are completely viable for cc and damage, even without augments/modifiers

I've used the same general build in Eximus Sorties before with multiple frames. Parkour and "tank" mods make a huge difference

 

As far as I saw in the dev workshop stream, Ember will just need to move around more and pay slightly more attention to energy management while using her 4 - doesn't really sound like a doomsday nerf regardless of your playstyle

[CryoSpecter]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

@Cryoguard I think the biggest flaw with your reasoning, and the biggest thing you're missing... is that ember does heat damage. Heat damage sucks against most enemies... and it sucks against *all* enemies, at sortie levels.... unless maybe you're fighting infested, in which case it's only good VS trash. Which makes her a really bad caster frame. Which is why I said, it would be overkill to increase her energy cost. Since the only way to kill things with a heat build, is again, by building full power (thus, forgetting her efficiency).

You've seem to forgotten DE is currently looking into scaling mechanics for ALL damage types. They're starting with IPS at the moment as their testing ground. Once they figure that out, I guarantee we will be seeing dev workshops on how they plan on addressing the poor scaling of heat and other elements currently, as the main ones that can scale are viral, corrosive, slash, gas, and toxin (with the last two falling off badly against armor). So yes, her fire damage doesn't scale the best right now (scaling it to double even with accelerant will struggle with highly armored targets). But let's not forget that these are issues that are being discussed for the future, so let's try and work with what they're currently toying with.

[Himenoinu]

16 minutes ago, jiminatorx said:

banshee with savage silence is a favorite frame to tear though adaro because of the stunlock stealth multipliers and silence. energy draw is minimal and it lasts some 50 seconds. ember has nothing remotely similar. firequake was used for protection but with the proposed changes it can no longer be as easily maintained and enemies can easily shoot her outside of the new range.

Except the heat and kd procs and the fact that the maps aren't wide open spaces. Also, silence doesn't clear rooms either, it helps the whole team to (and that's important for me) actively clear them.

Would Embers be happier with a WoF that just spams heat procs to everything in the range? That is, just the CC bit, needing other skills or the active use of weapons to clear mobs? Almost all cries hover around her survivability with this lower range, but I'm 100% sure that if WoF would become a wide-range CC skill only, the cries will intensify in the actual direction, of not dealing scaling damage.

So bottom line, reduced range = survivability issues because of no reliable CC, buuuuut! Wide range with strong CC = useless skill 'cause one can't wipe a lvl 100 grineer map with it.

[-SoTS-Razer-Z]

I don't mind if you want to nerf chroma, but NOT BEFORE you do something to our focus points gaining. You know most players rely on farming teralyst for focus points, if you nerf chorma, it will take much more time to get the same amount of focus points. Make focus farming easier by removing the cap and increasing the rate for example, and we will be happy spending 50mins to fight one teralyst lol :D

[Maka.Bones]

I'd like it if they made ember's accelerant work like banshee's silence... I'd be golden if they did *just* that. But I made a post for ember rework ideas, and it touches on all of her abilities. I'd really appreciate if you ember vets pitched in on this. (I only have about 400-500 hours with ember)

 

 

[jiminatorx]

 

11 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Except the heat and kd procs and the fact that the maps aren't wide open spaces. Also, silence doesn't clear rooms either, it helps the whole team to (and that's important for me) actively clear them.

Would Embers be happier with a WoF that just spams heat procs to everything in the range? That is, just the CC bit, needing other skills or the active use of weapons to clear mobs? Almost all cries hover around her survivability with this lower range, but I'm 100% sure that if WoF would become a wide-range CC skill only, the cries will intensify in the actual direction, of not dealing scaling damage.

So bottom line, reduced range = survivability issues because of no reliable CC, buuuuut! Wide range with strong CC = useless skill 'cause one can't wipe a lvl 100 grineer map with it.

The problem is that the stated design of ember is to have one main role, clearing trash mobs. The proposed changes make her less effective doing that. What is supposed to be her role then? She is no good a high level content, make her no good at low level content, what is the point of ember? Heat status is the worst elemental status. #2 does not boost #4. #1 and #3 are useless. She needs a new kit.

You may claim skillful play is required but I can take any frame and to go any map, use no powers and press shift-w + melee and clear the entire map. For more "skilled" usage I can do the same with most frames, just press a few buttons, everyone dead.

Edited February 4, 2018 by jiminatorx

[Maka.Bones]

4 hours ago, schilds said:

This is not much different from what everyone else is saying. The difference between each individual's final assessment of the change is whether they think they'll be able to compensate for it or not.

I'd like to see ember really be a caster frame, so i actually kinda hate the energy cost increase xD

I'd be happier if it was only a 50% increase in cost

[Maka.Bones]

15 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

You've seem to forgotten DE is currently looking into scaling mechanics for ALL damage types. They're starting with IPS at the moment as their testing ground.

Yeah, and that's gonna take a while... but the ember change is happening now...  and we don't even know if/how heat will be changed. BUT if they do change it to work better, then yeah I wouldn't mind an energy cost increase THEN, as it would be more fair... at that point. Not now. and that's if it actually starts to scale lol.

[VanceGames]

Ok DE so i see that chromas dmg is getting a nerf(which is actually reasonable) but U have opened a new world of problems with chroma. Im glad Chroma is getting a rework because I find him as a decent frame. Now hear me out chroma can output alot of damage but he is really clunky to use as u need lose your vex armor buff after the duration runs out and need to set it up again via damaging yourself and his second ability is nice but i feel as if the changes being aren't really helping him in anyway aka its just a pure nerf and i wanted to suggest my ideas to make chroma better.

Chroma's passive isnt even a passive what the heck its part of the frame so i decided Chromas passive should be immune to procs because he is suppose to be really adaptive

Passive: immune to procs

Continuing this trend i decided to change his 1 into the ability to change elements on the fly costing 0 energy, by tapping 1 u have changed your element similar to ivaras 1 and changing arrows. You can have the fire ice electric and toxic symbol instead.

Chromas 1: Chromatic change

change element,Energy Cost 0

Now Chromas 2 is going to be based off of whatever element chroma is in. In fire mode he is going to shoot a fire ball out of his head similar to Embers 1 that'll explode on impact(blast radius scale with power range) that does good damage and scale with his vex armor's fury and can be casted while doing anything like shooting and moving. In ice mode will breath this ice breath(length of breath scale with range and duration of freeze scales with duration) in a wave moving his head from one side to the other freezing the enemies it touches. Chroma will stop moving and shooting but the animation will be short. In electric mode Chroma will do this lightning zap similar to Volt's 1(ldoes good damage and distance of zap scales with range) where it'll stun the enemies in a line for 3-4 seconds. Chroma can still do everything while shocking people.In toxic mode Chroma will shoot this poison ball that explodes like Chromas fire ball but the range of the explosion will be bigger and instead of doing damage itll reduce the damage of the enemies by 50-75% and the same with Chromas 1 he will be able to shoot and move while using it(radius scales with power range)

Chromas 2: Spectral something

Fire: sends a fire ball to blow up his enemies, damage good, Energy cost 15, radius 3 meters? explodes on impact

Ice: freezes enemies with his breath, damage 0, duration of freeze 6 seconds, animation time .4 or .5 seconds just make it fluid and quick, energy cost 15, range 10 meters.

Electric: shoots an electric current zapping his enemies, duration 3-4 seconds (does not scale with power duration), make the damage a bit weaker than fireball but still good, range 15 meters

Toxic: shoot a ball of poison stripping the enemies of attack power, damage reduction 50%(scales with power strength caps off at 75%), damage 0

Alright now on to chromas elemental ward, his 3. i want elemental ward to do one thing buff him and his allies and you can recast this ability but you can not have different elements of elemental ward. Example is if u casted elemental ward while being fire chroma and switch to ice chroma u will not lose the buff till you cast elemental ward again. Fire chroma will get a health boost like normal and get a passive health regeneration of 2 that scales with power strength and the idea is that players are sacrificing strength for range so generally it will be 200% meaning chroma has 4 health regenerated a second. Ice chroma will get just an amor boost. Electric chroma will get a fire rate and reload boost. Toxic Chroma.... idk I ran out of ideas.

Chromas 3: Elemental ward

energy cost 50

Fire Chroma: health boost and passive health regeneration of 2 a second(scale with power strength)

Ice chroma: armor boost

Elecrtic chroma: fire rate and reload boost

Toxic chroma no idea atm

Now finally Chromas vex armor his 4. Chroma will be able to recast his 4 but upon casting it gives chroma the full scorn and fury but takes away 100 hp and 300 shield on the spot. This allows the need not to set up the ability and just use it and it still self harms you but this gives his kit a bit more fluidity. This will also be a sharable buff across 20 meters(scaling with power range).

Chromas 4: vex armor 

energy cost 75

takes away health and shield for an armor and damage buff for you and your allies.

That is my chroma rework idea I put alot of thought into it and it may not be perfect but i feel as if this would be a good/ not broken kit for chroma gives a place as a caster frame synergizes quite a bit and allows him to change in combat. I do hope this is looked at by many people and DE i would like to see thoughts.

Edited February 4, 2018 by VanceGames
I wanted to add more onto it

[Maka.Bones]

Quote

 

[Maka.Bones]

My ^previous^ comment bugged, and it wouldn't let me to actually write anything lol... 

On 2/2/2018 at 10:45 PM, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

I think this is a simple and quite elegant solution to solve loads of problems

I must agree sir; elegant is a good choice of word too.  Also ty for commenting on my post, with a link to yours! Glad to see this!

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[DroopingPuppy]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Lets do some calculation then, going for max range i made an ideal build for ember prime:

https://goo.gl/kmKUJw

In this build we have 42m range, 476 damage, 35 inital cost and 1.35 drain cost.

If we apply DE's promised change we will have 21m range, 952 damage, 35 initial cost and 2.7 drain cost. The problem is that in low levels she will still be a nuke (an expensive one but still) and on high levels she loses all of her survivability.

It also worth noting that this is a build optimised for max range any other build gets even worse thanks to the changes. Those who have used a negative efficiency build now can forget about wof forever.

 

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

Dude you dont get it at all. For CC build you will have to make strength  a dumpster stat. So remove all you dmg mods from your build, add efficiency and duration, add vitality. You will have to choose between expensive low aoe and high range cheap CC. You wont be able to have both.

Well, do you guys keep in mind that World on Fire's proc rate is depend on ability strength and in order to actually get CC you need to increase ability strength, right? Overextended is not an option, ever.

Edited February 4, 2018 by DroopingPuppy

[Fiftycentis]

that change on ember is non sense, if i want to clear fast a low level mission i can alway bring an ignis, or equinox and cheese trough the mission anyway

[Kidkilla]

So... read the changes, read the comments, listened to Tac Potato's take on it - while I get the annoyance of Ember's nerf (like everybody else, I used her as a wpn lever, resource/part farmer etc), I can't say it's not an abused function. Yes, without some creative modding and weapon builds, she's not great past lvl 50 enemies. But that doesn't mean she can't kill them nor is she as useless as some are making out. Ditto Chroma - annoying especially as its a 'known' issue, however besides the so called team buff, I really can't complain as I can still hit things pretty hard. Just can't one shot them any more is all. 

What I'm disappointed at is the missed opportunities with other frames - wukong etc and the way this has been communicated. For such a large and almost fundamental change to the game's avatars (and popular avatars at that), you'd think DE would be a bit more sensitive with the way they've gone about this. Possibly should have broken it down into stages and not so many frames all at once. Because right now, we've got some really welcome changes - Volt and Atlas, being lost in some perceived to be negative changes - Ember and Chroma regardless of those changes are necessary.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Kidkilla

[Kidkilla]

1 minute ago, Fiftycentis said:

that change on ember is non sense, if i want to clear fast a low level mission i can alway bring an ignis, or equinox and cheese trough the mission anyway

therefore Equinox will be next for the nerf hammer!

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

i'm gonna keep this post very short because I'm sure most of you will understand what im trying to say. So if youve seen the new changes atlas changes, you'll realize that they created a forced synergy around petrify. I don't exactly have a problem with that as it gives me a way to heal buff my armor and cc enemies faster(kinda like having a pocket arcane guardian and grace). plus making a rock armor around your body sounds super cool. my problem comes with what happens after you petrify the enemies. THE BECOME FULLY IMMUNE TO STATUS PROCS. Yes you heard me right. Petrifying your enemies is almost always going to reduce your damage done since it takes away your elemental bonus. Im really hoping that somewhere they said that they would change this because this one issue can render atlas completely useless. To understand how major this issue is I tested my 100% kohm that deletes armor and melts most enemies in seconds against a petrified enemy and i was doing 16 damage per shot, unable to kill the enemy with a single clip. I tried my condition overload nikana prime that normally kills in around 10 hits now it was taking more like 100. I have no idea why DE would make a frame that nerfs it's own damage. this even affects landslide which barely if ever procs status. Thats the point of even having status and elemental mods affect it. Before the atlas change goes live this needs to be addressed. I would love to see this work a lot more like the frost freeze where the duration of status procs is slightly increased when they enemy is frozen. Besides I would love to be able to run a healing return landslide atlas and become the unkillable tank. Even if that doesnt happen I would very much not want to have unkillable enemies. Thank you for your time and please if you can mention this to DE so they can fix it before its too late and they forget about it until the next big warframe changes 

[Winterbraid]

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

Now regarding your last paragraph, any warframe that can clear an Io or Akkad map with one ability is overpowered and needs to have that skill - and possibly its synergies within the kit - looked at.

I actually hold the opposite view. If an alleged damage-dealing class can't wipe out a low-level (Io) or mid-level (Akkad) mission then how is it even gonna begin to compete in endgame? The whole point of AoE is that you trade raw damage for coverage and utility, so of course it has to be overpowered against low-level enemies. The current endgame is level 100+, so balancing frames for anything below 50 will just make them underwhelming. What we need is more level 100 content that's both challenging and rewarding to play, then veteran players will have no reason to go into low level maps with their maxed-out gear and ruin the game for beginners.

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

also can DE or someone knowledgeable inform me which melee mods work and dont work with atlas and how the venka prime would affect the way atlas and the combo counter work

[atejas]

1 minute ago, Kidkilla said:

therefore Equinox will be next for the nerf hammer!

Would sincerely be fine with the initial slash procs on maim getting nerfed as long as the 'bomb' damage isn't.

Although since the Mend buff Nyquil is just better than Dayquil for anything above level 30 already.

[Fiftycentis]

2 minutes ago, Kidkilla said:

therefore Equinox will be next for the nerf hammer!

so just continue to nerf things because they do what they are meant to do? i bet we'll still see thread of players blaming ember getting all the kills in defense missions just because they don't know that they can easily shoot enemies before they enter her 4th range

[peterc3]

The 1 needs to do something else, as in a damage ability, or it's a non-starter. It also looks like each element would benefit from differing mod setups, which means most people would probably not shift during a mission from whatever they modded for. Which goes back to 1 needs to do something else, preferably not changing elements.

[Kidkilla]

4 minutes ago, Fiftycentis said:

so just continue to nerf things because they do what they are meant to do? i bet we'll still see thread of players blaming ember getting all the kills in defense missions just because they don't know that they can easily shoot enemies before they enter her 4th range

that was genuinely a joke, but it could happen as its almost as annoying as WoF (when you're neither Ember or Equinox). But wasn't Ember's original function as CC not a lane clearer?

[MrInubis]

32 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Well, do you guys keep in mind that World on Fire's proc rate is depend on ability strength and in order to actually get CC you need to increase ability strength, right? Overextended is not an option, ever.

Do you know that firequake augment doesnt benefit from modding?