Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Guest]

Are both Scorn and Fury being changed to be additive or is it just Fury?  Currently, both of vex armor's bonuses are multiplicative.  So far all you've said is Vex bonuses will become additive.  If this includes Scorn, it's a major nerf to his ehp.  Can you please clarify?

[Aimop95]

Mag can output some insane damage numbers, no one is denying that, the problem is that it's all loaded into one ability and only because the damage scales off of your weapon. Many of her other abilities do not synergize or play well at all with her single ability.

Pull will yank enemies out of a magnetize bubble if you're not careful and the bubble itself is not reliable in holding in all enemies. Often times, enemies with charging animations will simply run out of the bubble. Polarize shards currently add pitiful damage to Magnetize while the rest of the ability does not affect the bubble at all. Crush adds damage to only the original target of the bubble, who is often already dead by the time you've cast Crush.

Pull needs to stop yanking enemies out of the bubble, it's counterintuitive to the playstyle DE wants (which revolves around Magnetize). Magnetize needs to be more friendly toward hitscan weapons as projectile weapons with punchthrough outdamage any other weapon type by a significant margin. Polarize needs to either be replaced with something new or have it's damage taken away in favor of reliable enemy debuffing (scaling armor/shield strip and shield restore). The work done on Crush is a good step in the right direction, but the ability itself does little to synergize with the rest of the kit. It sticks out like a sore thumb. I would suggest that on the last tick of damage, Crush groups all enemies in its radius into a single point, that way it can better synergize with the Magnetize bubble.

I personally think Mag should have her Magnetize and Polarize completely reimagined. Magnetize be reimagined as a placeable AoE, like Limbo's cataclysm. It should cause enemies to become stuck to the wall/floor and unable to fire their weapons for the duration of the ability. They can enter a ragdoll state when they walk into the magnetized area and become "glued" to the ground or wall, unable to move or attack until the ability ends. Polarize should be the opposite, an AoE that originates from Mag that forces enemies away from Mag and inflicting a 100% accuracy debuff on them for the duration of the ability. Also, they cannot come within a certain distance of Mag while they are Polarized.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Aimop95

[ZodiacShinryu]

34 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Well, do you guys keep in mind that World on Fire's proc rate is depend on ability strength and in order to actually get CC you need to increase ability strength, right? Overextended is not an option, ever.

Firequake is an augment for Ember's WoF. Firequake at max rank has 100% chance to cause the enemy to be knocked down. It is unaffected by modding. The status chance for WoF connected to power strength is for heat procs. Which if you build it simply for CC you don't need.

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

Just now, TheDefenestrater said:

Are both Scorn and Fury being changed to be additive or is it just Fury?  Currently, both of vex armor's bonuses are multiplicative.  So far all you've said is Vex bonuses will become additive.  If this includes Scorn, it's a major nerf to his ehp.  Can you please clarify?

Look at the FAQ at the bottom of the OP - it is both. 

Meaning not only a nerf of Chromas damage, but also a huge nerf of his survivability.

Please DE, consider simply making a damage cap per hit for Eidolons, and don't change Vex Armor.

Or make Scorn a flat 90% damage reduction applied before armor etc. 

[peterc3]

Healing Return won't work on Landslide. Also, the point is to get stacks of Rubble from killing Petrified enemies with your abilities. They aren't unkillable.

[jiminatorx]

4 minutes ago, Winterbraid said:

The current endgame is level 100+, so balancing frames for anything below 50 will just make them underwhelming. What we need is more level 100 content that's both challenging and rewarding to play, then veteran players will have no reason to go into low level maps with their maxed-out gear and ruin the game for beginners.

There are always going to be reasons to be in low level maps. resources are a minor reason. more importantly are to gather relics and crack relics. My original thought was to gate player matching by MR but I realize there is much better way to do things.

The solution is what is already being done in warframe today. Each mission location can currently support multiple mission types simultaneously. The regular mission, syndicate mission, nightmare mission, kuva mission, sortie mission, alert and invasion.  Two new mission types should be created, one for people with access to tier 2 planets and one for people with access to tier 3 planets. The original mission will be the tier 1 mission.

Tier 1 planets will have all 3 tier missions. Tier 2 planets will have tier 2 and tier 3. Tier 3 planets will only have tier 3 missions. Players will be put into missions according to the tiers they can access. Higher tiers should have somewhat more difficult enemies. This way new players will be kept separate from high level players.

This should only apply to the basic missions. Fissures alerts and such should continue exactly as is since the content is going to be difficult anyway for new players.

 

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

Healing Return won't work on Landslide. Also, the point is to get stacks of Rubble from killing Petrified enemies with your abilities. They aren't unkillable.

the healing return was just a personal thing id want to see. but whats the point of killing the enemies if i can only do so at 25% the efficiency or less. Did you not read the examples i provided? the way its setup rn its better to just use a weapon or landslide on its own without petrifying. Petrifying the enemy reduces the damage too much since status procs are like a necessity at high lvls. 

[(PSN)supersocc11]

The whole status proc not working on petrified enemies complaint is irrelevant imo. As it stands, my atlas does so much damage that i can take out lvl 150 gunners and bombards in 5 to 10 hits with the combo counter built up using path of statues augment. Also, with the new rework landslide will do BONUS damage to petrified enemies! So now I will be able to kill everything even faster! Maybe crank up the strength on your build and mod melee with all pure damage mods.

[Zark_Manthra]

You seem to be confusing 'no status procs' for 'no elemental damage period'. The 90%'s and the 60% of the dual's both still add to your landslide and weapon damage, it just makes the enemy immune to procs (and make no mistake, frost's full freeze on avalanche and melee enemies may extend existing procs, but it also makes the enemies immune to new ones as well), so if you were building for raw damage instead of status, you'd see no change on the petrified enemies (I understand that your 100% kohm practically runs on melting armor, but that's why you should bring a damaging secondary to compliment it). And besides, landslide gets a damage bonus on petrified enemies, which is why you're going to be able to landslide from petrify in this upcoming change instead of what it used to be. Same for the condition overload nikana you mentioned, if you can't proc status of course you can't get bonus damage from it.

As for the venka p and mod question? Venka's passive shouldn't affect it since landslide is not affected by the equipped weapon's stats, but I could be wrong. Mod wise any damage mods work, no rivens obviously, no slash or puncture only mods (impact mods are fine), all combo duration mods work, as well as status, crit, and crit chance. No point in having status since it should one shot any star chart enemy anyways, but crit and crit chance are personal choices; body count is a must on my build; other than that, it's your call, I'd still recommend the four 90%'s, (primed) pressure point, fury, spoiled strike, and heavy trauma or collision force.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

As a new player only 50 days in, I really don't have much of a place to state my feelings compared to people who have played all the warframes, have used all the weapons, and know all the mechanics...

But if the point of changing how WOF works is to force Ember into closer engagements instead of just running around like a tantruming toddler in a china shop, wouldn't it make sense to have her armor or health improved? Maybe enemies down while burning heal Ember or increase her armor? Maybe instead of her current passive you could have it that burning targets do less damage or else receive more damage from non elemental sources? 

I have been playing Ember.. I agree that the class is currently overpowered. I can pretty much solo defense missions up to 35 with relatively low levels of modding to weapons and frame. Definitely not a higher end build. So yeah, if I can just kick off wof, then go to the kitchen and make a sandwich, things might be off... But it sounds like you're trying to push a glass cannon towards close engagements, so if that's the idea, maybe glass isn't the right material for her anymore..

Just my thoughts... Personally this sounds like it might be an interesting twist but close range abilities + low armor low health seems like a bad combination. Just my thoughts as a new player, feel free to educate me on how dumb my thought process is.

[Ectogen]

OMG! Thank you so much for this changes!

This is a breath of fresh air in warframe.

Now, it's time to look at balancing the damage recieved from monsters. Level 100 grineer can almost one-shot an excalibur fully builded with survability mods (1k shield, 1k health and 530 armor). This is not good and you are forced to build a glass-canon cc excal to actually survive. That's ironic, because survival mods are made to survive more LOL.

P.S. i'm glad you figured out how to make those changes properly :3

[Aimop95]

So Mag is getting looked at again and that's great, the thing is, none of the changes really help her from feeling incredibly restrictive and fulfilling the power fantasy of a fragile, CC caster. As she is now, she casts Magnetize on a target and then fills it with punchthrough projectiles. Pull may be or may not be used to help group enemies, but once Magnetize is cast, unless all enemies inside Magnetize are dead, using Pull anywhere near the Magnetize bubble risks yanking enemies out of the bubble. Polarize currently does nothing to Magnetize aside from adding 50s of damage, a pitiful amount that only rivals the small amount of armor/shields she can strip and restore to herself. Casting Crush risks dying to enemies outside your Crush radius due to the long cast time, but also only adds 1500 damage to the original target of Magnetize, who should already be dead by the time you cast Crush. Because unless you're trying to kill enemies with Mags abilities only (of which you won't past level 20), there is no reason for your Magnetize bubble to not be a death bubble filled with projectiles. In fact, not shooting your Magnetize is effectively ignoring the one ability that gives Mag insane damage.

With that said, Magnetize and Polarize should be completely reimagined in order to create a kit that fulfills the caster fantasy while solidifying Mag's direction of being a CC caster. Magnetize should be reimagined as a placeable AoE, like Limbo's cataclysm. It should cause enemies to become stuck to the wall/floor and unable to fire their weapons for the duration of the ability. They can enter a ragdoll state when they walk into the magnetized area and become "glued" to the ground or wall, unable to move or attack until the ability ends. Polarize should be the opposite, an AoE that originates from Mag that forces enemies away from Mag and inflicting an accuracy debuff on them for the duration of the ability. Along with the accuracy debuff, they cannot come within a certain distance of Mag while they are Polarized. Magnetized enemies who are hit by Polarize will become unmagnetized and the Magnetized area will disappear, but the enemy units will be inflicted with the debuff effects of Polarize.

Crush should have it's damage amped up, as it becomes Mag's only source of major damage that isn't from her guns. Perhaps give it % damage scaling with enemy health as we are crushing their bones inside of them.

These changes would trade Mag's damage for hard CC while keeping her fragile and extremely ability reliant to maintain her survivability, like any good caster type should. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Aimop95

[DroopingPuppy]

31 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Do you know that firequake augment doesnt benefit from modding? 

 

27 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Firequake is an augment for Ember's WoF. Firequake at max rank has 100% chance to cause the enemy to be knocked down. It is unaffected by modding. The status chance for WoF connected to power strength is for heat procs. Which if you build it simply for CC you don't need.

I know, but it means you need to use both of them, on the frame that already suffered by low mod slot count. Also WOF has not that much fire bursts per a sec so I don't think that it connects to knockdown all stuffs in the area instantly.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Tengetsu96 said:

I used a basic set of mods to show that her abilities are completely viable for cc and damage, even without augments/modifiers

So you're saying you can use WoF for CC without the augment, eh?

Riiiiggghttt......

Quote

As far as I saw in the dev workshop stream, Ember will just need to move around more and pay slightly more attention to energy management while using her 4 - doesn't really sound like a doomsday nerf regardless of your playstyle

The problem is with the effective range of Firequake reducing her ability to CC down to almost nothing because most Corpus and Grineer units are going to start shooting on you long before the new WoF range ever touches them... which makes any CC from WoF completely unreliable at best and (most likely) outright pointless unless you're willing to stack range and efficiency to make that skill work - and you can forget about damage from WoF even more so than it's disregarded now in Sortie content.

Even with double damage, WoF still going to do jack all damage against armor (like the Grineer, Orokin, and the newer Corpus units) because Fire doesn't ignore armor like slash damage does and it also doesn't stack like toxin and slash DoTs do.  And may the Lotus have mercy on you if you try to use fire against something that has a proto shields and armor.

That's the really big problem with Ember's kit: It's all based on fire damage with only Accelerant and Fire Blast doing actual innate CC within the kit, yet neither do any significant damage once you start to get higher in the levels - even when doing Accelerant => Fire Blast.  And if we're really talking CC, let's not kid ourselves that Ember is anywhere near on par with even Inaros... let alone comparing Ember to a Sleepquinox, Loki, or any of the other actual CC frames.  Even Frost can CC better than Ember, and do it without seriously crippling Avalance and Snowglobe in the process.

Speaking of Frost, why is it OK that Ember has a derpy kit, yet every single skill on Frost has a use? (FYI Frost's 1 is used to banish Snowglobes)

I mean, we could definitely build Ember into a bad Inaros and play her that way... but why would I want to play a lower EHP, less survivable version of this build (Streamline is a placeholder for a flex slot) and lack the innate healing from Inaro's dagger finisher passive or Devour and also miss out on the EHP increase from Scarab Swarm.  Even Frost has a survivability augment in Icy Avalance.  And both Frost and Inaros also have CC skills so they really make better tanks than Ember because Ember's kit is not designed to be used to support being a tank (and I would be remiss in not point out that it could be argued that Frost isn't an actual tank).

Yes, you can definitely do what you're doing by basically not improving Ember's abilities, but all that's really doing is showing how broken Ember is as a DPS frame because (quite honestly) she can't put a dent in anything Sortie level despite Frost having enough CC AND survivability in an Avalanche build that also throws DPS into the mix.

Ember's kit is fundamentally broken when you start comparing what Ember does to the other warframes.

Breaking World on Fire is only going to make Ember a worse warframe because World on Fire is the only skill that's actually making Ember work right now - especially considering Ember's horrid passive and the garbage fire that is her 1 and 3.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Almagnus1

[MrInubis]

1 minute ago, DroopingPuppy said:

 

I know, but it means you need to use both of them, on the frame that already suffered by low mod slot count. Also WOF has not that much fire bursts per a sec so I don't think that it connects to knockdown all stuffs in the area instantly.

Thats why you have 2 and 3. Her dmg was like nothing at higher lvls so nothing will change in that regard, you will only have to make 2 separate builds depending on the content you run. Lower lvl for dmg, higher lvls for cc. Also her 1 and 3 are being "looked at" for potential buffs and adjustments. If she will be literally unplayable with that range that is also a subject to change, but you wont know it unless you try right? 

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

You're overlooking the fact that he loses nothing from his current kit. He's only getting buffs and expanded options and synergy. His Rubble skill also works with the instant petrification on Rumblers cast, Path of Statues, and when Tectonics/Rumblers die. Petrify won't be mandatory, but it will definitely pair very well with a Landslide build.

 

He's already got a lot to offer despite many people's claims (he just isn't sitting at inevitable rework levels of broken), so I'm happy with having more incentive to use Petrify on top of still being able to use the same frame I already thoroughly enjoy.

[009X]

Hello, Warframe stuff.

I'm Japanese Tenno, have been playing Warframe for about 4 years.

Those plans make my friends of Tenno worry. They guess those updates are going to nerf strong and popular waframes and become Warframe itself poor.

I'm not sure if those are good plans, because I enjoy Waframe easy. However, I went throgh some nerfs, Mag, Carrier, Ash, Split chamber, Simulor...
Surely, there were too strong gears. But nerf is not good update. Averaging and balancing are not all. I think a good update means making the contents that inconspicuous warframes and weapons are used effectively in this case.

Thank you for reading my poor English.
At last, I hope Warframe become exciting more and more.

[vitmerc]

I am OK with the change, as an aspiring game designer myself i see why it is needed and good. However, changing the way this is stack multiplied can hurt more than just lower chroma's dmg output

 

[GinKenshin]

the point is to kill stoned enemies with your 1, not with your weapons. that's why it'll deal x2 the dmg and will give you stacks 

[blacklusterseph]

13 hours ago, Caelward said:

Hovering means holding still and this is the last thing I ever want to do with Zephyr. I'm not saying everyone should agree with me, but I don't like it. If I wanted to stay still and act like a turret, I'd play Mesa.

Reflecting on it I think my disappointment the hover is as much my disappointment in the dev's view of Zephyr. That viewpoint has been thing missing in all the rework threads that we've put work into over the months. We knew what the various players thought that the Zephyr thematic playstyle is, but we didn't know what DE thought she is. This hover combined with how her passive was designed now makes it clear. They literally think of her as an aerial turrent. The dev view of aerial superiority seems to be that Zephyr sits still in the sky and shoots at things. To me that is the saddest part of all this since it is an impasse that will govern anything that happens with her abilities going forward. If that is their view of what Zephyr is then any rework that happens with her will invariably just make her abilities facilitate that. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

DE, I plead to you to not go through with these changes to chroma. I am open to changes to him and fixing the damage multiplication? Sure I am open to changes, though if you want my thoughts on the damage aspect of chroma, I suggest you check my latest post here.

But what I cannot at all recommend is the changes to Chroma's armor side. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that Vex Armor's armor buff will become a base armor buff, and thus additive to elemental ward and steel fiber. This is not right. I'll explain with some math, which is sorely needed with these changes.

Chroma, as he stands, is a great tank. Most builds have him receiving 60-70k EHp, while getting over 100k is not impossible. Even with this, he does OK. It takes a really dangerous build up to get these stats do to how Vex armor works, and that's always been the counter of him. MY 299% Power strength build affords me 23k armor. This is around 99% damage reduction that gives me 74k EHp from health and with Quick Thinking, more. If you make the armor buff additive to mods, at 299% power strength, my chroma would have 7014 armor. This is less than valkyr with a warcry build. With vitality, I'd have 18k EHp. This may seem decent when compared to frame like banshee, but it is far from it. Consider this, Nidus currently has 46k EHp with steel fiber, vitality, and Link, with heals for bargains, great damage, and great CC with 3-4 extra lives. Mesa has 25k EHp with good damage and decent cc.Inaros has about that much EHp with a blind cc, heals for days, and doesn't require much power casting and can ignore statuses.Mirage has 21K EHp from shields alone, and nekros can get almost 60k Ehp. If you do this change, you will destroy chroma in his entirety. You really need a math guy to help you with this, and I can do just that. I suggest to revisit this change though, or reassure us that this is not the case.

Edited February 4, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, kuciol said:

you will only have to make 2 separate builds depending on the content you run. Lower lvl for dmg, higher lvls for cc.

This is the problem that True Ember players are seeing a major issue with.  With the nerf to range of WoF you won't be able to build it for CC in higher level missions.  The only way the proposed change could work at higher level gameplay is if Ember is given some type of Damage Reduction mechanic also to compensate for lack of CC range and survival.  

Sadly the proposed changes for Ember really wont stop the "annoying players" in lower level missions like it's intended.  

Edited February 4, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[ZodiacShinryu]

14 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

I know, but it means you need to use both of them, on the frame that already suffered by low mod slot count. Also WOF has not that much fire bursts per a sec so I don't think that it connects to knockdown all stuffs in the area instantly.

I am not sure what you are talking about. You lose more mod space if you try to increase damage when you only want CC. Firequake is 1 mod in comparison to like the 4-5 power strength mods. Firequake by itself ensures you knock the enemy down when they get hit effectively stopping them from shooting at you for a little bit. WoF's eruptions/bursts were never AoE and there is no way to increase the number of eruptions per second (I believe it is locked at 5 targets at a time). So there is no need for Heat procs from power strength because the target will be knocked down with Firequake so it provides nothing but damage (which CC Embers don't care about).

[MrInubis]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is the problem that True Ember players are seeing a major issue with.  With the nerf to range of WoF you won't be able to build it for CC in higher level missions.  The only way the proposed change could work at higher level gameplay is if Ember is given some type of Damage Reduction mechanic also to compensate for lack or CC range and survival.  

Sadly the proposed changes for Ember really wont stop the "annoying players" in lower level missions like it's intended.  

I agree that i wont solve the problem but its a start. As i noted her 1 and 3 also will receive some changes so we will have to see full patch notes. Also you an get 290% range and that will give you about 21m firequake radius, not that bad. You can always use it like Mesa does, 4 > few seconds > 4. The problem most players have with this is "oh know i will have to do things, not just run from A to B". Its really not that bad as people make it be.

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

so what I'm getting from this is atlas is a "forget your weapons exist, spam your abilities type of warframe" and the only reason i was getting lower results is because i was playing him wrong. So instead of me thinking of him as a "cc and make my weapons do the killing warframe." Seems kinda disappointing. I was hoping for a new beefy boi that I could run around with and hack and slash things with but i guess if i want to continue playing atlas I'll have to drastically change my playstyle. Thanks for clearing up my confusions on him