Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Azamagon]

So, Mag...

While Pull and Magnetize could need some polishing up here and there, their roles are at least clearly defined (enemy relocation and DPS-zone, respectively).

But Polarize and Crush now has serious overlap. Look at this:
Polarize grants shields, with overshields for Mag alone, if augmented, debuffs enemies shield and armor and causes a bit of nuking, with the only unique effect being that it creates shards.
Crush now ALSO grants shields, including overshields, debuffs enemies' armor if augmented, and causes a bit of nuking, with the only unique difference between the two abilities being that it also has some meager CC.

Isn't that a BIT too similar?

Wouldn't it be better to give them better defined roles instead? For example:

Polarize -> Purely defensive role
Grant shields and to allies, while also granting a temporary buff to Mag and nearby allies which makes shields a whole bunch tankier for a duration (and resistant to shield-bypassing effects, for example) as well periodically regenerating a bit of shields even midcombat, with the augment allowing the ability to create overshields.
Remove ALL effects of this ability which interact with enemies, thus giving it a 100% defensive role.

Crush -> CC & debuff-ing nuke role
Flat damage like now (Maybe 50/50 Magnetic/Puncture?), make enemies stay crumbled for a brief moment after the cast (giving it some lasting CC), and crush away a flat+percentage amount of enemy shields and armor on each pulse, creating the current shards (giving it the debuffing role). Augment could potentially remain the same, or could focus on something else as well, like making its CC or nuking potential better.

[ZodiacShinryu]

25 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Perhaps, but there are still the problem; World on Fire has not much fire bursts per a second as you know, so you can't knockdown all of them. And for someone that stand up but didn't hit by WOF again, fire proc would be needed too. I doubt that knockdown only satisfies CC part.

A...nd, just for such level of mobile CC pillar, why don't you play Equinox or Banshee? They serves us better, and also do much more.

Heat procs last 6 seconds. Panic (heat proc stun) doesn't last the full duration of a heat proc, its like the first 2 seconds, and it doesn't always trigger due to animations conflicts. Enemies that get up may or may not be on fire but they wont be stunned. The point is Knock Down and Heat/Panic are competing for the same stun time window and Firequake will give you the stun no matter what. Firequake is the safer choice if you want to CC. There is no point of trying to set WoF with heat procs with Firequake equipped. It doesn't matter either way because both have to be reapplied with another eruption which can be somewhat random.

You are talking to the wrong person because if "I" wanted CC I definitely wouldn't be looking at Ember. I personally don't like Firequake Ember and decide to do High power strength and mid range Flash Accelerant with Heat weapons and just not use WoF as often in high level content. I am only trying to convey to you that some people build Ember for WoF CC which requires no power strength investment.

[Kokomala]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:33 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Vex Armor - Fixed a longstanding issue with number calculation being multiplicative. Boosts now apply before upgrades instead of after, making the ability consistent with all other damage boosting abilities. Overshields are now considered for Vex Armor. Chroma's Vex Armor remains one of the top performing damage-multipliers in the game - and it's now an aura! Instead of just being focused on Chroma, it can now benefit allies in range.

Is the self-damage to buff Vex armor staying, if so then why? As far as I can tell, it's the only self damage to buff ability that is remaining in the game. Iron Skin and Bless both used to work with self-damage and were adjusted.

Why not remove the self-damage and have the buff start at an appropriate figure with damage taken scaling the ability by a further 40% (as an example)? This would maintain the damage taken scaling aspect whilst removing the self-damage portion.

[Xantheis]

1 hour ago, Vanillu said:

Right. Must be why Ember's overheat and how Mag used to be a few years ago got thrown into a trash can and took forever to resurface and fix the problem after countless mentions of how it needed to be fixed or change in a positive way. That's exactly why he thinks you're a troll, because you're shamelessly ignoring facts that are in front of you since you want to have a different opinion. I haven't looked at this thread in 10 hours and I comeback to see your posts and I'm not sure whether to take you serious or not. More than half of the comments here give quite decent explanations of the opposite side of what you are arguing for and to be quite frank you seem obsessively apathetic of what can happen to the state of a game where people want BALANCE, not logic. Your logic tells you "Play it first it will be fine fixed later" yet history says opposite. You have no facts to base your opinion on and plenty of people spent a lot of time discussing their opinions and posts here, but the only thing you have to back up what you say is logic... Not to mention your logic makes me feel like you're playing a different game and not Warframe. I also forgot to mention, you don't need to play a build to know how much double of something works, do the math instead of being a smart guy. Maybe it doesn't affect you because you don't play Ember, so maybe you should because clearly double the cost of energy is too difficult to imagine. I'm sorry maybe it should be in a easier to comprehend fashion. 

I'll write this out for you. The cost energy increases over time to double the amount once reaching the cap. You know how you see that thing in game showing your energy? Wait til about 20seconds after a WoF build that is SPECIFICALLY based on Firequake, where you do 0 damage to bombards endgame. Look at all the damage you do with that. Oh wait let's not stop there, you see that damage text? Double the damage it does (which is basically nothing) to bombards. You come up with very minimal time to kill for an enemy that will 2 shot you. Dang man so not only do you still do Sub-B frame dps to endgame content but now you have energy cost twice as demanding. Never would have thought to see a support version of a dps disposed into a dumpster like it committed taboo for stealing kills from new players, as if that doesn't happen with any decent DPS frame in sub 30 content. Literally the equivalence of straight up bullying a frame that isn't even that good in the first place and keeping all the ones that were better at doing the job left alone. This is the only post I am going to reply to you with because at this point you don't even speak constructive, it's more like simple fallacies laced with incomprehensible logic.

None of this has anything to do with what i posted.  Not.  one.  word.  Perhaps you replied to the wrong comment

I understand the changes as they have been proposed.  i understand the implications.  I also know the history of other frames as i was here for that too.  

[Ribain]

I think Banshe's "Resonating Quake" make us so boring, unfune and frastrating.

At once, she starts it, no enemy to shoot, no loot to obtain,  all we can do is just wait and wandering.

Please change it basically to this way at all. Not augment.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Ribain

[Kidkilla]

3 minutes ago, Ribain said:

I think Banshe's "Resonating Quake" make us so boring, unfune and frastrating.

At once, she starts it, no enemy to shoot, no loot to obtain,  all we can do is just wait and wandering.

Please change it basically new way at all. Not augment.

you should like the new changes which allow movement after you enable it.

[Kidkilla]

1 hour ago, atejas said:

Primal Fury stance needs more mobility/fluidity, he could use a touch more sprint speed, cloud walker needs to be made fun somehow.

Agreed, he just seems a bit meh when he should be dynamic. I should want to use his alt but beyond defy and cloud walker when I want to multi stun, I avoid iron jab and primal fury.

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

1 hour ago, Argenex said:

You don't want players one-shotting bosses?

Then stop adding bosses that are invulnerable until they aren't for half a second and actually design a boss fight.

Yeah because that's real easy when some frames have infinite scaling, some weapons can one shot anything no fucks given. They don't want people one shotting bosses make it so the invincibility state actually works properly 

[fangtimes]

12 hours ago, (PS4)KingGuy420 said:

Yeah, except Ember is going to be drastically more viable at higher levels. Chroma is going to give the whole team a damage boost that'll probably equal out to the same or more damage overall. And Banshee will now be able to gun while using quake, which will most likely allow her to put out more overall damage. But yeah, nerfs apparently. 

It's changing their functions, not nerfing them.

 

Except for the part where she won't be. Ember was used almost exclusively for levels 0-50 to speed up missions. She is very squishy and her only saving grace in higher level missions is that she could stack a lot of range and have everything cc'd with heat procs and her augment Firequake. Having your range cut in half to do marginally more damage is not a good thing, you're losing all of that range to now be able to walk in close to WoF something to death. You know what also kills enemies that are close to you? Your melee weapon.

Chroma? Unless you're running in a premade group with some actual coordination then the buff will be useless. The whole point of Chroma in premade Eidolon fights was that he could be the damage and let the other frames be specialized for their roles in the group. You didn't need other people focusing on shooting the Eidolon because that was Chroma's job. You didn't need other people's weapons to be forma'd out because that was Chroma's job. You now have to worry about 3 other people also shooting/not doing their jobs of capturing Vomvalysts, getting more lures just to do the job that 1 frame could do before.

Banshee already had great run and gun options with her 1, 2, and 3 but wow, I guess no one ever used her for those things. Her 1 gives her access to quick and easy cc, her 2 more or less gave everyone gun's the option to 1 shot enemies, and her 3 gave her a passive cc that you could just activate and go. You have to be out of your mind if you think Banshee needs to use her 4 to run and gun.

 

Do you want to know the hilarious thing about this? People keep calling these sidegrades/not nerfs. Do people not realize that a sidegrade leaves the original unchanged? If these were not nerfs then the originals would be literally untouched?

 

13 hours ago, (PS4)KingGuy420 said:

It's changing their functions, not nerfing them.

Let me reiterate what a nerf is because you really just don't seem to get it: "A nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element." They are changing the way certain abilities work to make them less effective. Changing the way the abilities work to suit another playstyle is completely irrelevant. DE are changing the abilities so that they could not do what they were being used for. I don't think I can stress this enough and something tells me I am going to have to stress it again.

[Jaffawer]

Don't know what to think about this nerf. I was running WoF CC Firequake combo with Max range/duration/efficiency for as long as I can remember. The fact is that Ember does nothing in the late game/high lvl missions... so for me, CC always was the way to go, if I wanted to survive and be somewhat useful to the team.

I doubt that this rework will change anything. The dmg probably still won't be high enough to be of any relevance in the end game, and even if it is, you will most likely get one-shot the moment enemies enter that small high-dmg dealing area around you. But we will see I guess.

[atejas]

14 minutes ago, Kidkilla said:

Agreed, he just seems a bit meh when he should be dynamic. I should want to use his alt but beyond defy and cloud walker when I want to multi stun, I avoid iron jab and primal fury.

Primal Fury is actually quite decent if you run with Naramon and Primal Rage as well, but mostly all I do is spam slide attacks with it since the combos aren't intuitive or fun.

[KIREEK]

Asside from what has been said about ember, i only have 2 issues with it.

I will likely still use ember, that warframe is 1 component to some efficient farming but it's not the only thing, DE would be suprised at what some players can do with ember and if you tought of nerfing the utility/damage at a decent range, it would have minimal impact on some players because it's not just that that is into efficient gameplay.

My issues is that the ability will have fairly complex mechanics to new players, such as range, reduced range after a certain time, efficiency, efficiency decrease after some time, damage and damage increase over time, that might be easy for us to understand, but new players might find it overwelming and like limbos, the warframe will be clunky to use and the results not that great.

The 2nd issue is that the mentality DE had was that abilities had 2 components to it, where damage prevails at some point and then effects prevail because enemies can't be killed that easily, if the range gets reduced after 10 seconds, then even the fire cc get's nerfed aswell, i honestly don't know what direction this is going at all.

I accept the changes, i mean what choice to i have, all i can say to DE is that good players will always break the loot/time spent ratio that you guys have defined, we will drag new teams on easy missions to the point where a vast amount of loot and exp is gathered on a short amount of time, ember or not.

[Kidkilla]

5 minutes ago, atejas said:

Primal Fury is actually quite decent if you run with Naramon and Primal Rage as well, but mostly all I do is spam slide attacks with it since the combos aren't intuitive or fun.

did that until I realised using Guandao crit build does the job better and with no energy cost.

[BornWithTeeth]

7 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

You're gonna be completely screwed with the changes unless you either plan on using Accelerant as your CC because half the range of WoF means your CC on WoF goes down to basically polearm melee range...

In other words, completely and totally useless CC because a Bombard will one-shot you because Ember's armor isn't anything to write home about.

So why are you cheering for these changes again?

 

Haven’t you noticed that I’m not cheering for the changes? My repeated statement, across multiple threads including this one, is that it won’t be the end of the world, Ember will still work, but will be crippled and stripped of much of her CC.

[Sajochi]

No. And I'm getting tired explaining all this every single time. Mag needs minor consistency tweaks and then she's solid. Making sweeping changes like the ones you will result in one thing: yet another mindless nuke. Lets break her down again, but this time I'm gonna go deeper for the few areas.

Pull- simple hard cc. Could pull enemies to Mag's feet like it used to, but still simple CC. Happens to have damage.

Magnetize- a nuke in most cases, a disarm ability with an aug. Much more mechanically complex as you're taking enemy position and your own weapons into account. Could have a stronger pull strength. 

Polarize- an ability with multiple parts, but players focus on the first one way too much and miss the others. How many abilities in the game have a drain that isn't affected by damage reduction, an aoe effect per target and a secondary ability interaction? Polarize has extremely high damage potential because of part 2: the aoe magnetic explosion. It has no target limit and no los requirements. It scales harder in higher levels because of how dense enemies spawn. The upcoming shard buff is very welcome. It could use some wave speed scalings. 

Crush- highly effective small area cc. It happens to have damage. Being vulnerable while casting is easily remedied: use some damned cover already. Stop putting yourself in situations where you will be downed because you can't be arsed enough to be aware of your surroundings, or at the very least stand behind a box. Adding percentage scaling is the wrong direction. Could it have a lower cast time? Sure. Could it do a secondary proc? Sure. Its main use is actually to set up your other abilities, but instead players want more mindless nukes. Sorry, that ain't happening. 

Your changes to make Mag reliant on crush for damage is a bad direction. She already achieves being a cc monster with high dps. Small tweaks, that's it.

Im referring to @Aimop95

Edited February 4, 2018 by Sajochi

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

2 hours ago, Kidkilla said:

 

I play him and he's... ok. I would like a stagger/blind augment for defy as opposed to a damage one. But more importantly, I'd like a bit more mobility - without a speed mod, he's one of the slowest frames in the game. He's the monkey god, but moves like Rhino's fat cousin.

This annoy me so much... A melee frame without speed... Everyone but atlas run faster... Smh

[Cloud]

I have not seen those changes in action so I will give a feedback on what I read:

Ash

(well done change which make everyone happy, both people who like and dislike the stabbing animation) 

 

Atlas

I really like the free petrify, which gives now the opportunity to be used along with the other skills instead of being ignored

absolutely love the new rubble mechanic

I've still have concerns about Tectonic and Rumblers skills, the first one fail both to be a good fortification or any kind of damage/utility ... while the second create IA no where near to be enough effective in action. 

Banshee

Love the change.

Chroma

Not tested how much the damage output will be affected by this, but making it a stackable aura is a decent compensation. And I fully agree that Bosses should not be 1-shotted ;)

Ember

Agree with this change too, even if I am not a superfan of abilities which increase their energy drain overtime, I would like to see an alternative to that. Moreover, you must take in consideration that WoF together with being a nuke , was also the only defense ember had against enemies. You should consider a proper way to mitigate damage.

Gara

Like the changes

Mag

Like the changes

Volt

Like the changes, you could consider on extending the time of stun from his 1st ability for compensation to removing it from his 4th. This is to keep in him still a good cc availability

Zephyr

I just love everything you have done here. Good job :)

[BornWithTeeth]

14 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Dude, no. DE's proposed changes to WoF are definitely a bad idea, and show a poor understanding of how she functions in the meta which they themselves created. There needs to be a better solution.

 

The point which phoenix and I are making is that right now, Ember is fully functional. If DE make their proposed changes, she will suffer and lose functionality, not gain it.

Observe.

[Colyeses]

Zephyr changes look nice, especially if her air control and animations are improved to match.

 

But holy S#&$ guys, can we go one month without the FOTM warframe getting nerfed? There's so few Warframes that are actually functional, and you keep reducing the quantity every single time there's a patch!

Why not focus on new calculations for ability based damage so they can -somewhat- compete with heavy hitting weapons like the Opticor, Tonkor, Lenz, etc.?

[BornWithTeeth]

Amusing.

[Terrornaut]

4 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Zephyr changes look nice, especially if her air control and animations are improved to match.

 

But holy S#&$ guys, can we go one month without the FOTM warframe getting nerfed? There's so few Warframes that are actually functional, and you keep reducing the quantity every single time there's a patch!

Why not focus on new calculations for ability based damage so they can -somewhat- compete with heavy hitting weapons like the Opticor, Tonkor, Lenz, etc.?

This is....extremely inaccurate, the middle part anyway. I agree with the first and last parts but no, there are very few bately functional Warframes. Yes many have 1 useless ability (divebomb, psychic bolts, firequake, etc) but no frame is useless dead weight when built and and played intelligently for sorties.  Its an overdramatization from a lot of mmorpg players that you need to be op to be effective - truthfully most people playing 'the best' setups are rarely the best players that actually get full use out of their gear and kits because...they're spoiled and often lazy.

 

But when it comes to focus farming yeah like 5 frames are good for it and its terrible.

[phoenix1992]

Enough of this.

Ember works as it is, no sane Ember player gives a *clem* about the damage output of WoF. FQ and FA builds work, and people have proven that over and over already,

If you want the big bad mean "offscreen kills" to stop consider the following.

1. You could just nerf the damage output of WoF - and no one would care.
2. Equinox maim.
3. Atterax has effective range which is higher than WoF.
4. Rivens on melee weapons have higher effective range.
5. Maybe stop asking of mr 15-20+ players to go in Lith missions.
6. Ember is not at fault for the declining player base.
7. We know the QA team is understaffed, and this was a critique from big CC creators like SkillsUp and TBC as well - so why force it.
8. Must Brozime make a video? I don't like the fellow, but this seems to be the way.


Edit : 9. Space mom did nothing wrong.

Edited February 4, 2018 by phoenix1992

[zWhiteKz]

1st of all thank you DE for "listening" to our feedback 

2nd this is a very good change to make "old" frame beviable for upcomming content drop

Ash - Perfect no complain here 

Atlas - Very good the new mechanic gonna make him fun to play again not just focus on spam 1 alone

Banshee - THIS IS A BUFF A round of aplause to DE :

   This make banshee 100% more fun to play and now players can use synergy between her kit rather than just 4 or spam 2 

Chroma - A very good step in to the right direction but the Aura range need a little more

Ember - This is bad VERY BAD, why? u ask

   simple WoE have 2 type of players : the one who want fast run and everything to crack some relic ( which DE dont like ) and the one that use Ember as a range cc frame 

   this change will just make players use ember as cc suffering while make ember now more of a paper frame ( the range small = enemies just shot u to dead)

  and there is the energy problems too but that understandable

  my sugguest is reduce x amount of base range and let the range be when 4 is cast but the energy cost and damage with be like Valkyr

Gara - Very good

Mag - Now she can be more of a choice for long/endure run

Volt - Mixed feeling but ok i guess

Zephyr - Need more testing but overall very good

 

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Tailwind moving you forward on the ground, and requiring Charge and Hold to go UPWARD...guarantees only that it will never be used while on the ground.

I've outlined in my post which appears to be merged and improperly linked now is plain old silly.

Grounded tailwind should just launch you upward. The distance you go up is affected by range or duration not some charge move. Now she loses so much from this change and I don't even know if DE reads this.

[Cytobel]

Here's hoping DE drops some FULL refunds on the 'Frames players have spent Formas, potatos or, Gods help us, REAL MONEY on.  I'm betting it's well worth the time to do this if certain pieces of equipment become radically undesirable, and ESPECIALLY if those things involve core elements to a build.  Killing something in favor of "new-player experience" or to stretch out the grind again is a really, REALLY good way to alienate the veterans.

With the current climate of games and developers that are reaming themselves bloody with pay-to-win policies, loot box scandals, and microtransaction walls, players are getting REALLY sensitive to anything that even looks like a possible screw.  Many people have jumped ship from Destiny and Destiny 2 already over issues with broken trust and shady business dealings, and anything that even appears to be something similar (for instance, nerfing old content into the ground while consistently releasing overpowered new items that aren't addressed for weeks, months, or even YEARS*) will scare some previously-burned people off.

FWIW, I'm not looking at any of my favorite 'Frames getting screwed to unplayability here (I HOPE), and so I'm not complaining out of purely personal interest.  That said, I REALLY feel for Ember mains here, as she may shortly lose her primary (indeed, ONLY) survival tool.  Reducing a Warframe from second-line tier to the garbage pile isn't really going to do good things for game balance, let alone player base.

DE, rather than going after play styles, can we please first see:

1. Improved matchmaking for players, so that someone day 1 doesn't have to deal with someone who's been around for 4+ years, is jaded as hell an geared to the teeth.

2. A system to refund players ALL of the materials put into a dramatically nerfed 'Frame that they may well now find unplayable.

3. More new player content AS WELL AS ways to acquire weapon and warframe slots in game.  Perhaps not many, and not frequently, but some way for a brand new player to get enough space for some seriously varied kit.  -I'm aiming this at the new-player experience as I've seen brand new Clanmates simply up and out after doing a quick spot of math and determining how much money they would HAVE TO SPEND to play the game with a half-respectable Arsenal.

4. Less emphasis on "damage-dealing abilities" in Warframe.  Either that, or more aspects of scaling ability damage.  Enemy health scaling means that abilities based strictly off of damage become WORTHLESS very, very quickly (ESPECIALLY in the suprise buttsex that is a mis-identified Kuva Flood**)

_____________________________________________________________

*Note, there are MANY games that have had issues with this and Warframe is FAR from the first (or last) to suffer player backlash from this problem.  Also, a thing that has been identified as "powerful" may well eat S#&$ at any time as the game changes.  This, however, leaves veterans taking the brunt of the screw.  Warframe's community has been repeatedly touted as one of it's very best attributes, and I'd recommend that DE strive to not drive them away.  Nerfing something years on can be...  problematic.

It's sometimes better to adjust older things to a new power base, TIGHTLY control all new content, and make sure that bugs are addressed somewhat swiftly.  Other examples (and I'm looking at Chroma here) are pretty obviously going to eat a big ol' slice of nerf pie, and players need to understand how to identify them.

**How is this a bug that still exists?  Kuva Siphons and Floods should NEVER be confused by the hud in the Navigation panel.  This is a system that's been in place for MORE THAN A YEAR NOW.  PLEASE fix it.