Ember rework ideas to improve balance, scaling, and mostly FUN... and for science

[Maka.Bones]

Warning: This is kinda long. At first glance these changes might seem OP, but please remember that heat damage is hugely sub-optimal against most enemies. So she needs this much power synergy, in order to scale with the enemies.

I like mEmber, but I actually like the direction of her WoF's change. I honestly hated stealing all the kills from teammates, but it felt like a necessary evil most of the time. It's because WoF/firequake, is currently Ember's only practical/efficient/survival ability. Because of that, ember is kind of S#it (sucks) atm. Only two of her powers worked well (accelerant, and wof). Her fireball is kinda useless, and her 3(fire blast) is inefficient. The reduced range on her WoF will directly nerf its augment, which also decreases her survivability. So my new suggestions are:

 

Passive: if you're gonna keep it as is, pls allow a form of self-proc. Otherwise if you're gonna make ember a phoenix, why not let an already squishy frame self-res?

1) Condensed fire (tap/charge):

Spoiler

 

 - Tap to summon 2-5 wisps of condensed fire, that float around her. Each one provides a 5-10%damage increase. Tap again, to launch one of the existing wisps towards an enemy in sight; consuming one wisp & buff. *1-hand animation  -wisps could strip armor, and cause an ignition proc.  -Having active wisps, could also count for ember's passive; proccing the effect

• Casting the initial fire wisps, would proc ember's passive... re-tapping to launch the wisps would cost none, or little energy; making this ability "new player" friendly & still strong. However, charging the ability--or any other abilities cast with the wisps-- would cost increased energy

 - Hold power to charge, then fire a beam of condensed fire (like a lazer). If used with the wisps summoned, it would benefit from the full buff & also consume all active wisps (flamewisps could spin in front of ember, as the source of the energy beam & animation starter).  She wouldn't be able to move, while holding this power.  -This could also act as a *very brief* shield/DR buff while it's charging. - Damage could somewhat overload shields/be proportional to enemy armor, since a charged attack would be stronger.

• Charging the attack however, would 1) use all wisps & increase damage in proportion to #of wisps 2) cost energy 3) energy cost would be increased, in proportion to the amount of wisps remaining.
  • So 5 wisps = +50% Damage (or Power Str), +50% energy cost (or -50% efficiency). Or if that's still unbalanced, double the energy% cost, per power str% increase (5 wisps = +50% power str = +100% energy cost) . The same increased energy cost, would apply to any ability used with the wisp buff active. This is to balance out the increase in damage, and that they initially procced ember's passive. Also keep in mind, ember's passive doesn't restore energy with WoF turned on.

   *One wisp/buff also becomes consumed, each time a new power is used. An augment could make wisps buff allies too. 

• alternatively, could make "flamewisps" work & stack like nidus' "mutation stacks" but instead of increasing power efficiency, it would cost energy or hp, for higher damage buff... so people use it more as a burst of damage, than a lifestyle buff

 

2) Flashfire/Fiery Shift (movement/sustain):

Spoiler

 - tap to teleport (like itzal's TP, but slower/shorter, and with a fire twist) at an enemy, causing an explosion & stagger upon impact, and restoring an amount of energy to you & nearby allies based on #enemies hit. Energy restore would still happen even while WoF is active, but would increase the cost to cast (so people can't just spam it while WoF is turned on). While in this animation, you're invulnerable.  *This effect could have a cooldown/animation lag to keep from spamming, but it would enable ember to be a true "caster" frame, and not just a blue skittle addict*  

3) Accelerant (yes, I moved it to 3): 

Spoiler

Keep the same existing effects, but change it to work like banshee's silence/savage silence. This would hugely increase ember's survivability. So instead of constantly needing to re-cast & re-apply accelerant to new spawns, it would automatically prime new enemies coming within range of her power and work as a soft CC. It would also maintain the fire damage/cast speed buff to nearby players, and ember (if augmented)

 - @FoxFX suggested to make it work as an aura, though i think it would still need to have the soft CC for the sake of survival : 

 

4) World on fire(the "oh sh!t" button): I like the reduced range/increased damage... just not the increased energy cost

Spoiler

 

 - Tap for normal WoF, but with reduced range/ x2 damage from the start.

• The reason I didn't want to change her WoF, is because it would actually be a good offensive-defense against melee trash. Could also have damage scale with armor/shields by 10-50% of enemies' defenses (Idk how the enemy scaling-math works). So maybe shrink the range even more...? But then I guess it's more of a girl on fire, or aura of fire/fire armor, instead of a world on fire xD

 *New Augment effect* Hold/charge for 1-2s, to go supernova/nuke/explode like caustic eximus units; knocking down enemies that are hit by this heatwave. Holding the power, would un-toggle WoF after this charge is cast/ is in effect. Or maybe change how WoF works altogether, to be this instead.  *Damage would decrease further away from her. This wouldn't kill anything outside of her accelerant range; just KD. 

 

   Again, please remove/reconsider the suggested increased energy cost for the x2 damage on WoF. Because Ember is already an energy intensive frame--when only her Wof, and her Accelerant abilities are being used. I would like to enjoy my experience killing mobs... not play a game of "find & eat the blue skittles/pizzas"

 

 

Not all of these ideas were meant to be included in the kit (like having a shield while charging her 1st... it was really just a wild idea), It was mostly meant to pool of new ideas/concepts. However, this new kit should keep her as a fragile & powerful "glass cannon" while allowing her to be survivable through CC & movement (could still get oneshot). It wouldn't be a no-brain kit, but It would open up more options for different playstyles, and it would increase FUN-power & efficiency by 1000% :D

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this! (those of you who actually did lol)

Also, thanks to the guys at Shy's discord, for helping me with some of these ideas!

Edited February 5, 2018 by Maka.Bones
BBQ meat on a stick, is delicious AF.

[Joystiqs]

Disclamier: I've rarely if ever played Ember, so I lack the knowledge and experience I'd need to give good critical feedback on these ideas, but the original name for your proposed 2nd skill (Flash Fire) gave me another idea that I think would fit Ember's kit more thematically.

A "flash fire" could be something like an explosive spontaneous combustion. Going with that, I think it'd be more fitting if Flash Fire instantly combusted an enemy that was affected by Accelerant. Mechanically, the basic idea is to steal Roy Mustang's alchemy.

Some Grineer looks at you funny?

Now, there are probably a lot of imaginable secondary effects that would make such a skill actually useful, but since I have a healthy hate for the terrible infinite armor scaling, my followup would be to have it either...

1. Strip armor (yawn IMO because it's been done before).
2. Deal additional damage in direct proportion to how much armor an enemy has. Like boiling armored enemies alive.

Conclusions are hard.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Joystiqs
Removed a redundant "actually"

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, Joystiqs said:

Deal additional damage in direct proportion to how much armor an enemy has. Like boiling armored enemies alive.

I think I got a boner from this^.... Yes, do this please. It sounds original, and would be incredibly fun AF

[BornWithTeeth]

Combining these suggestions with the reduced range on her ulti would result in her being fragile but strong, and still work against the wide area WoF spam, so I gotta give this one a thumbs up.

[weirdee]

could there possibly be some kind of mechanic tied to the percentage of charge when using 4? like, it boosts the damage of abilities but the charge depletes a bit?

[Maka.Bones]

11 minutes ago, weirdee said:

could there possibly be some kind of mechanic tied to the percentage of charge when using 4? like, it boosts the damage of abilities but the charge depletes a bit?

Please elaborate a bit? I think the power1 I suggested already would kinda do that. The Idea for charging her 4, is just meant for a large-scale KD. Any charged powers would consume all wisps tho (if that's what you're refering to) i'm not sure if i understood what you mean tho, so pls explain a little more

[weirdee]

yeah, it's starting to look that way, i guess i was thinking of another idea on my own and it doesn't really make sense in that context. it just seems kind of boring to have something go 0-100 without any interaction with that meter that grants some benefit as a result of the meter filling up (besides adding some damage) instead of making it mostly a drawback to using the power for too long.

Edited February 4, 2018 by weirdee

[SHADOW.XIII]

"reduced range/increased damage" should be an option, ie. a mod for it

reduced range basically makes Ember no longer usable on Plains and any large areas that will show up in future, just dies too fast 

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, weirdee said:

i guess i was thinking of another idea on my own and it doesn't really make sense in that context

Shoot! Explain it, and what context that you mean it in! Honestly, i made this post for people to publish their own ideas too. I'd like an ember rework that makes her scale & fun to play. Honestly, IDK if the devs will take any of my suggestions lol. But I'd like them to overall improve her quality of gameplay.

[Maka.Bones]

4 minutes ago, SHADOW.XIII said:

reduced range basically makes Ember no longer usable on Plains and any large areas that will show up in future

I agree. That's why I suggested to have her accelerant changed to work like banshee's silence. If we don't get some sort of wide CC, or defensife buff that scales, ember is going to constantly get killed x.x. Even DE_Reb didn't bother to play her very long, and she got oneshot before firequake was turned on. She didn't seem to be enjoying herself much tbh.

[JalakBali]

If the major complain is "she's too squishy" (I doubt this is the real complain but let's just say it is) then without an entire rework just make make her heal up and gain armor (for a short period) whenever she gets "burning". So instead of getting damaged like other frames whenever she's on flame, she gets healed and gain an armor buff (not a percentage, but a flat number, like 200 or something, scales with strength) for a short period while 'her armor is hot'. So cast 1 on the ground, or 3, stand on it to get healed and some short period after while your armor is still 'hot' you get armor buff. Same if you get hit by a napalm. The initial hit would damage you, sure, but while you're on fire, you get healed and gain armor buff. This would also result in Ember always wanting to be 'on fire'.

 

Heck, add a bonus to this: enemies killed by WoF would create a fire patch on the ground. It damages enemies while also act like her patch of fire, so standing on the bodies of burnt enemies would heal and buff her armor. SYNERGY!

 

There, simpler fix without much change to her kit.

[Maka.Bones]

4 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

Same if you get hit by a napalm. The initial hit would damage you

More like one-shot you lol.... I do like the concept though! It's a good idea to start with, and would add more function to her 3, but I wouldn 't want to sit around in one spot to be healed.  I'd just drop hp pizzas instead. 

[weirdee]

the idea i was thinking about before was like your idea, but your idea sounds better for that system, so i'll try a different one

maybe could take the boring idea that they have so far (something that gets worse over time like mesa without any real meaningful way to interact with it) and make it so that instead of starting at 0% for max range, it should start at 0% for minimum range and minimum damage, and go higher in percentage points each time an enemy gets hit by (or maybe just killed by) one of ember's abilities/burning/fire damage (including WoF), which gradually increases the range and damage with each point that it ticks higher. when it hits 100%, it should fire off a shockwave that either lights an enemy on fire permanently or kills any enemy that is currently lit on fire when it comes into contact with them, switches off WoF (resetting the meter to 0%), and set ember on fire herself, which will trigger her passive ability.

in fact, screw just confining it to the 4th ability, you could build her entire kit off this scaling

in this way, ember's ability does not immediately start at super overpowered, reaches that point, and then resets itself instead of remaining that way, while providing ember with some level of engagement in which her goal is to murder things with her abilities to get stronger, but conserving her attacks so that she can use them when she needs it the most (or just going all out if you're more into that)

it would require some balance work, but the end result should be more robust.

Edited February 4, 2018 by weirdee

[Maka.Bones]

Spoiler

2 hours ago, weirdee said:

the idea i was thinking about before was like your idea, but your idea sounds better for that system, so i'll try a different one

maybe could take the boring idea that they have so far (something that gets worse over time like mesa without any real meaningful way to interact with it) and make it so that instead of starting at 0% for max range, it should start at 0% for minimum range and minimum damage, and go higher in percentage points each time an enemy gets hit by (or maybe just killed by) one of ember's abilities/burning/fire damage (including WoF), which gradually increases the range and damage with each point that it ticks higher. when it hits 100%, it should fire off a shockwave that either lights an enemy on fire permanently or kills any enemy that is currently lit on fire when it comes into contact with them, switches off WoF (resetting the meter to 0%), and set ember on fire herself, which will trigger her passive ability.

in fact, screw just confining it to the 4th ability, you could build her entire kit off this scaling

in this way, ember's ability does not immediately start at super overpowered, reaches that point, and then resets itself instead of remaining that way, while providing ember with some level of engagement in which her goal is to murder things with her abilities to get stronger.

it would require some balance work, but the end result should be more robust.

 

That would definitely help ember scale better. It would also be fun, if the devs didn't want to put as much effort into a whole revamp as what i'm suggesting... Though I'd also like my idea better. xD Though if they wanted to use the "wisp count" as stacks instead of a buff, your idea might work better.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Something is quite in line with what I mentioned in my thread

Basically the concept is that Fireball has to make damage and synergize like Gara's first.

While WoF could use a rework, it doesn't need a machete cut, but something must compensete

Volt can cast Shock through Shield for additional damage, Frost can shot SnowGlobe with Freeze, Gara can charge Lash to do more damage in a sweep.

Ember can't do anything like this.

Being squishy and having the passive she has doesn't help at all, because when in fire, she dies FAST.

Other frames (Oberon, Hydroid, Ash, Mag, Frost) have ability to strip armor, which she doesn't.

I would also point out that Ember WoF is very randomized, you don't hit the enemy as close as it is in range, you hit it sooner or later.

Every Crewman in Mot is Ember's nightmare.

Yesterday a friend invited me to an Axi defense to farm a bit.

I said...I bring a RQ Banshee as she still is a thing.

I used RQ only when convergence was active, but...as much as Banshee did way less damage than Ember at the end mission recap, Banshee didn't went down as easily as Ember; I could rely on Silence and snipe enemies with a 1 Forma Vulkar Wraith, I could use short bursts of RQ when sieged...and yeah, she survived much more and more easily.

Still neither Banshee nor Ember ever reliably allowed me to do "Thou Shalt Not Pass Gandalf", staying in the middle of the door and stopping every enemy spawning in the room like I can do with Oberon or Frost.

I encourage people to try it, using weapons without rivens, because rivens can't be taken into balancing.

[WizardShinji]

Make her like Azula and control lightning, that would be pretty dope- mix that with wof and you have something like that scene from mad max where they're driving through the sandstorm XD

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, WizardShinji said:

Make her like Azula and control lightning

I might crap my pants from excitement, if this happened. xD

[Maka.Bones]

This guy has a cool idea too

[Soulden]

Seeing all the Overheat ideas and came to a though.

Since you get a meter on WoF, why not use that meter as an Overheat, and use the % to indicate how much dmg reduction from incoming projectiles she gets at the point.
The dmg reduction % could be around 10% per every 25 on meter, and no greater than 50% dmg reduction total at 100% on meter.
It could default on ability, or new augment. Maybe requires accelerant for synergy. Something along the lines.

Of course, can't be that op, so make it so punch through incoming fire still gets past overheat and hurt you.

If the proposed drain cost is gonna be that high, it will still prevent players from abusing it, while at same time giving them some survivability at high lvl content

[FoxFX]

Quote

From your suggestion on Accelerant, have you thought of having Accelerant be an aura which continuously debuffs enemies with Heat Elemental Damage weakness depending on the distance between Ember and the enemy? Something like she heats herself up and enemies at a certain distance become more vulnerable to Heat the longer they are within that range. The effect would also improve based on the distance from Ember.

In addition:

I would like to know what are your thoughts of an Ember passive which gives the Conditional Overload effect to Ember's Heat attacks?

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, FoxFX said:

I would like to know what are your thoughts of an Ember passive which gives the Conditional Overload effect to Ember's Heat attacks?

Depends on how it works ingame, and s long as it doesn't make her anymore harder to survive, since survivability is the main thing taking a hit with this new change... I'd like it if it scaled based on damage done to enemies, or enemies killed... then when you reach a critical point, you'd burst or add additional effects onto your abilities. That would be pretty awesome. 

Ty for the comment btw!

Edited February 4, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Adding @(PS4)xX-GunHound-Xx 's post. He has some unique/original ideas, even though I didn't like them all xD

 

[Maka.Bones]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:21 PM, Joystiqs said:

Disclamier: I've rarely if ever played Ember, so I lack the knowledge and experience I'd need to give good critical feedback on these ideas, but the original name for your proposed 2nd skill (Flash Fire) gave me another idea that I think would fit Ember's kit more thematically.

A "flash fire" could be something like an explosive spontaneous combustion. Going with that, I think it'd be more fitting if Flash Fire instantly combusted an enemy that was affected by Accelerant. Mechanically, the basic idea is to steal Roy Mustang's alchemy.

Some Grineer looks at you funny?

Now, there are probably a lot of imaginable secondary effects that would make such a skill actually useful, but since I have a healthy hate for the terrible infinite armor scaling, my followup would be to have it either...

1. Strip armor (yawn IMO because it's been done before).
2. Deal additional damage in direct proportion to how much armor an enemy has. Like boiling armored enemies alive.

Conclusions are hard.

@(PS4)xX-GunHound-Xx Joystiqs' idea might synergize really well with your fireball idea. It would add projectile velocity for them, and headshots could add some of these procs