Limbo & Fun: A Fan's Feedback

[PsiWarp]

 

 

In the wake of Warframes Revisited 2018, the devs have touched on a select few Warframes and their influence on teammates' fun. I would like to give feedback on Limbo's design post-rework, about how it feels to be playing as Limbo and playing with Limbo as he casts his Rift magic upon the battlefield. Hopefully, this might inspire them to take action in the next batch of revisits.

 

Playing as Limbo

Playing as Limbo is great. You alone have absolute control over this otherworldly dimension known as the Rift Plane, acting as its gatekeeper and time lord with unrestricted access to this realm at your leisure.

Enemies simply don't stand a chance once they enter your domain, unless you miscalculated in performing your ability combos and overestimated your firepower to eliminate threats in due time. However, as a strategist and tactician, Limbo has time on his side that he can bide as much as he wants. There are also numerous tools at Limbo's disposal to erase his foes' existence from any plane, notably the Rift Torrent augment. In exchange for this immense degree of control, Limbo is extremely fragile and has limited influence on the normal gameplay environment.

Limbo can contribute a lot to a team given the chance. Lets list some of his handy work:

Spoiler

 

1. Divide & Conquer ~ Isolate dangerous enemies and disable them.
2. Spellcaster's Best Friend ~ Enhance caster Warframe playstyles by providing pseudo-invulnerability and energy regeneration, as well as respite for himself and teammates to reload, resupply, and relocate safely.
3. Za Warudo ~ Create barrages of heavy artillery with Stasis given the time and ammunition.
4. Mannequin Challenge ~ Absolute crowd control with all of his abilities as a result of Stasis.
5. Ad Infinitum ~ Imprison enemies inside the Rift for prolonged periods of time.
6. Weapons of Mass Destruction ~ Reach extreme damage ranges with Rift Torrent.
7. Time to Duel ~ Widespread or concentrated division of the battlefield to create the perfect arena for players to deal with enemies in relative safety.
8. Field Medic ~ Grant a burst of healing with Haven; it is one of the few percentage-based healing abilities in the game. He is also one of the best revivers in the game, having the ability to ignore incoming enemy attacks.

 

 

Playing with Limbo

However, playing with Limbo is... not a fluid experience. Communication is paramount to successfully work with Limbo, since he imposes the Rift and its rules on his allies as he does his enemies; without it, as a teammate, the Limbo experience (at least for me) boils down to two key words: chaotic & disruptive. Limbo exerts too much control over his teammates before and after they enter the Rift, leaving them with reduced options thereby actively hindering them. Some examples of these hindrances are:

Spoiler

 

 

1. Rift Walk - Limbo's portal instantly sends allies (and Limbo himself) into the Rift, making accidental contact an annoyance on repeat occurrences.
2. Banish - all targets are indiscriminately pushed out of Limbo's plane of existence, including allies. Limbo can also abruptly unbanish allies at any given moment, including other Limbos. One such hindrance detrimental to mission progress is that Banish (and Cataclysm) can force players to stop hacking consoles.
3. Stasis - all projectile and hitscan activity are arrested at the touch of a button, from a teammate's perspective this can happen without warning. Stasis will not end until all Limbo players deactivate it.
4. Rift Surge - teammates are limited to using abilities to deal with banished enemies, if they have no access to the Rift. This applies to Banish and Cataclysm as well.
5. Cataclysm - the great dimensional divide given visible form. It has the potential to cover entire rooms and beyond or limited to a small area.
   • While most of its drawbacks can be overcome with abilities (can't deal weapon damage in from outside, can't deal weapon damage out from inside, just use Banish, Stasis and Rift Surge smartly), interactive objects such as hacking consoles, mobile defense terminals, Life Support Capsules, elevators, and lockers cannot be used by Warframes from inside Cataclysm, which can only be deactivated by duration end, manually by Limbo or a stray Nullifier waltzing in.
   • The Operator is an exception to this rule, as they can never enter the Rift therefore can interact with said objects; also, oddly, friendship doors can be activated from inside the Rift, which further adds to the inconsistency of the Rift rules on objects.
   • Lastly, detonation forces all Limbo players to exit Rift Walk should they be within Cataclysm beforehand. This is detrimental to Limbo players' survivability.

 

All of the above hindrances have workarounds should the player be knowledgeable of Limbo and the Rift, but that does not excuse the rather lackluster implementation with blatant disregard for teammates. The existence of these drawbacks is the reason why Limbo's infamy has persisted since his debut and post-rework; people simply don't want to deal with them and Limbo unfortunately happens to be the source. They also make trolling as Limbo an incredibly easy feat for both players in-the-know and those just starting to learn how to play him.

So, what can be done about them? Leaving them be will only perpetuate Limbo's problems and isolate him as one of the least desirable Warframes to have on a team, mission type and player behavior depending.

 

Proposal to Enhance Rift Play

I am of the opinion that teammates should be encouraged to work with Limbo and the Rift, not around them or against them. As such, teammates should be given more choice and control in their actions both outside and inside the Rift. I also believe the Rift should be readily accessible to Limbo's teammates to promote fighting on two fronts, not only when Limbo makes the decision to include allies by sending them into the Rift on his whim.

Please note that my aim is not to strip Limbo of his identity as the Void Magician or undermine his current level of power. I am merely proposing possible additions and changes to allow teammates a more fluid experience with the Rift, thereby enabling better enjoyment when playing with or as Limbo. Below are my suggestions on this matter:

Spoiler

 

 

• Buffs & Debuffs - the differences in terminology and functions
  • "Banish" is a debuff that affects enemies and friendly AI, enforced by Limbo's Banish and Rift Surge that displaces these targets into the Rift.
  • "Rift Walk" is a buff that affects ally players, given by Limbo's passive Rift Walk portal, Banish, Rift Surge, and Cataclysm. Simply put, this buff gives them the ability to use Rift Walk without creating portals, gained from Limbo's abilities involving entry into the Rift.
    • This buff is temporary, not refreshable, and will not change a player's plane state when the buff is applied. Once a player receives this buff, if there is duration remaining on the timer, he/she may use roll to freely toggle between the Rift and material planes at will. Backflip will dispel this buff entirely, similar to Volt's Speed.
    • This buff is unaffected by Cataclysm. Cataclysm cannot forcefully change a player's plane state if Rift Walk buff is active; this means, moving through Cataclysm's borders, having Cataclysm be created on top of you, or having it detonate will not affect a player with Rift Walk, will not alter your dimensional state.
      • Simply put, you get your own personal bubble of interdimensional energy grounding you to your preferred plane of existence, either stay in the material plane, or the Rift plane.
    • Limbo does not gain this buff, as his plane state is tied to his passive.

 

Octavia moved through Limbo's portal, gaining Rift Walk for 15 seconds. Time is fleeting, will she venture into the rift?

• Rift Walk (passive)
  • Portals no longer affect Limbo.
  • Portals grant allies the "Rift Walk" buff for 15 seconds.
    • Squad list always show the Rift Walk buff and timer for any allies.

 

A short-lived tear in reality that imbues allies with rift energy.

• Banish
  • Grants allies the "Rift Walk" buff for 25 seconds, affected by Ability Duration.
  • Limbo cannot end or refresh this buff when recasting Banish on ally players. For friendly AI such as Sortie Defense Operatives and Rescue Hostages, Banish is unchanged.
    • As such, Banish has no direct effect on other Limbo players.
  • Haven is altered slightly to accommodate this change: each time Banish is cast on an ally player, that player is healed. Limbo still has to be in the same dimension as his ally for Banish to target them.

 

• Stasis
  • All players in the Rift have a Stasis icon beside their HP & Shield bars, if at least one Stasis is active. This icon has a counter below showing the percentage from 0% to 100%, representing how close it is to reaching the 300 projectiles and bullets limit.
    • Using a percentage instead of actual number of frozen projectiles and bullets helps reduce the complexity of having to account for weapons with lowered limits for performance.
    • Since Stasis concerns all Limbo players, it should be visible to them at all times regardless of which plane they walk.
  • Stasis now keeps track of which projectiles and bullets belong to each player in the Rift. All projectiles and bullets will still count toward Stasis' universal 300 limit.
  • When players leave the Rift via "Rift Walk" (roll out), their projectiles and bullets will resume flight and be subtracted from Stasis' 300 limit.
    • If players re-enter the Rift via "Rift Walk" (roll in), then the projectiles and bullets in mid-flight will be paused again and count towards the limit.
  • As Limbo cannot gain the "Rift Walk" buff, Stasis must be deactivated to resume his projectiles and bullets.

 

Stasis icon and counter. Limbo can see this at all times, while non-Limbo allies only see it when they are inside the rift.

• Rift Surge
  • Ally players in range of a Surged enemy will gain the "Rift Walk" buff when said enemy is killed (surge jumps to ally player) or enemy leaves the Rift (re-banish). Duration depends on which trigger; both timers are affected by Ability Duration.

 

The Feyarch greets Limbo in his domain, charged with rift energy from a recently fallen foe that grants him passage.

• Cataclysm
  • When ally players enter Cataclysm, they receive the "Rift Walk" buff for 30 seconds (affected by Ability Duration).
    • This allows teammates to ground themselves in whichever reality they prefer.
      • For example, roll out to stay outside the Rift even when standing inside Cataclysm's bubble to interact with all objects as normal, and better yet, shoot enemies in the material plane.
      • Roll back in to deal with enemies inside the bubble and those in the Rift.
    • Allies can return to Cataclysm after their "Rift Walk" buff expires to receive a new one.
  • No longer removes Limbo from the Rift on detonation. Only contact with Cataclysm's borders will shift Limbo's plane state.

 

Although the above proposal lists include expanded detail, you can simply view these additions as sharing Limbo's passive with his teammates, addressing Limbo's monopoly on Stasis, and improving the Cataclysm interactions.

There is one more change I would like to add, but decided against for now. That is, sharing another feature of Limbo's passive, allowing teammates to gain 10 energy per Rift-bound enemy killed. This would help solve the instances where there are multiple banished enemies while teammates are outside the Rift, where only abilities can damage them.

Although promising as it opens up Limbo as a more viable energy restoration Warframe, it seems excessive to turn every rift-bound enemy into a battery to encourage ability spamming. The Rift Plane already provides 2 energy per second, and the intent of this proposal is to encourage players to spend time inside the Rift.

 

Afterthought

I realize that some of these changes are massive buffs to players working with Limbo and Limbo himself. I am not an expert in balance changes and I don't think Limbo is the most balanced Warframe. However, to date, it appears the developers are content with players being able to damage and kill enemies held captive by Stasis, which confers a massive advantage in and of itself by completely disabling AI for long and extensive periods of time.

I am just basing my suggestions on the current iteration of his skill set, with the intent to bring the quality of player experience up in the presence of Limbo(s). Numbers can be tweaked, functions can be altered, but the premise is for presentation in the proposal above.

TL;DR:

Quote

 

1. Introduce an "opt-in opt-out" feature, add Rift Walk as timed buff to ally players that Limbo gives them via his portal, Banish, Rift Surge, and Cataclysm. Roll to toggle dimension, backflip to remove the buff.
2. Through Rift Walk, ally players can pause/unpause their own rift-bound projectiles & bullets by going into the opposite dimension, if Limbo is using Stasis.
3. Through Rift Walk, Cataclysm can exist in the same space as ally players while they remain in their own preferred dimension.
4. Various other quality of life changes for situations where multiple Limbo players are in a squad.

 

 

Thank you for reading this far! Comments of any kind are appreciated!

Edited February 10, 2018 by PsiWarp
clarified Rift Walk wording

[GuezMan]

Bruh this is amazing!

[JalakBali]

My only wish for a Limbo "change" is just a UI addition, like an icon over enemies' heads, whenever you see an enemy that is outside of your 'plane'.

[chainchompguy3]

I was just about to make a limbo change-list of my own, but your Rift-walk-buff idea is basically what I had in mind, so I guess I don't need to anymore.

 

However, when I was going to propose it, I was going to ask that this Rift-walk buff be permanent for as long as Limbo remained in the squad, as a means to ensure that Allies are never without the option to enter the rift and fight the enemy that limbo just banished. A good limbo would make sure to also give his allies that buff, but not all limbos are good.

A suggestion I still think might still be important, though could perhaps could be gotten around by giving limbo more ways of potentially applying the buff to allies. I do admit that giving everyone the ability to cross the rift at all times might be a bit strong.

 

Your Stasis change is actually one of the most elegant I've seen. Most suggestions to fix it ask to limit Stasis's power, making it only last for a short burst of time, or not affect allies at all.

Your change, on the other hand, adds functionality to let allies control their own volley of shots, by giving them a means to unpause their bullets. Assuming that unpausing would apply damage just as visibly as always, this removes stasis's downside of causing ranged weaponry to not give adequate feedback on how much damage any given enemy will take.

 

The only other things I'd specifically like to ask for are just some "small" changes to make the rift more easily seen:

• Apply Mirage's Hall-of-mirrors see-through effect to enemies not on the same plane as the player.
• Apply a color or sound effect to the rift to indicated when it is stasis-ed, and have it change in hue/tone as it approaches it's end.

Edited February 4, 2018 by chainchompguy3

[Cyphrus]

Hey just wanted to chime in here and say I really like your suggestions for limbo @PsiWarp

Most of the (horrible) suggestions I see just want to turn Limbo into a rift buff bot and take away his power, you on the other hand have made it so Limbo can still be a kind of melee battle mage damage dealer still; while giving his allies an option to control their own projectiles. This should tone down the sad hate on Limbo which the poor guy sorely needs because he is an absolute amazing damage frame (and should always stay a damage/control frame), who gets a bad rep because of bad or troll players.

So all in all I really hope DE takes a look at this and implements your ideas because it changes nothing while changing everything ;)

Edited for spelling.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Cyphrus

[PsiWarp]

16 hours ago, GuezMan said:

Bruh this is amazing!

Thank you kind gentletenno, I hope it was a good read at least!

10 hours ago, JalakBali said:

My only wish for a Limbo "change" is just a UI addition, like an icon over enemies' heads, whenever you see an enemy that is outside of your 'plane'.

That's a nice addition, like Bladestorm's Death Marks I'd imagine? Perhaps the reverse could work too, like the icon shows on Rift-bound enemies only, so players always know who is in there and who is not.

Part of the confusion and chaos when dealing with banished enemies (and allies) stems from the visual effects. The "cooktop flame" around enemies' feet is less noticeable than the "full body on fire" effect before the rework, and the rippling outlines on allies have always been barely visible without squinting my eyes and standing up close (thank goodness for squad list icons). An icon above their head might not be the most immersive way to improve this issue, but it's a step in the right direction!

8 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I was just about to make a limbo change-list of my own, but your Rift-walk-buff idea is basically what I had in mind, so I guess I don't need to anymore.

However, when I was going to propose it, I was going to ask that this Rift-walk buff be permanent for as long as Limbo remained in the squad, as a means to ensure that Allies are never without the option to enter the rift and fight the enemy that limbo just banished. A good limbo would make sure to also give his allies that buff, but not all limbos are good.

A suggestion I still think might still be important, though could perhaps could be gotten around by giving limbo more ways of potentially applying the buff to allies. I do admit that giving everyone the ability to cross the rift at all times might be a bit strong.

As I recall, Archwizard suggested in his frame retune compendium thread an Affinity Range-based Rift Walk that allows allies to freely enter or exit the Rift at will. It's a very nice idea since it eliminates any possibility for Limbo to exclude allies from the Rift to hog all the enemies to himself, so to speak. However, I believe that Limbo should at least take action and/or expend his energy to benefit his team, which is why Rift Walk was introduced as an applied buff from his other abilities involving entry into the Rift.

After some pondering, I will also add this buff to Cataclysm given that a Limbo who only casts it and Stasis, is not providing his teammates with Rift Walk, which results in the same situation we have in game that a lot of folks have a beef with. Originally, my train of thought is to preserve the tactic of border-dancing in and out of Cataclysm, but now that I think about it, allies can simply use Rift Walk to adjust their plane at any moment. In the end, the melee-and-abilities-only dilemma involved with Cataclysm and Stasis is addressed by giving players more flexibility.

If need be, we can also simplify the Rift Walk buff's duration to be uniform across all applications. Find a good static number (e.g. 15 - 30 seconds) for consistency and balance.

8 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Your Stasis change is actually one of the most elegant I've seen. Most suggestions to fix it ask to limit Stasis's power, making it only last for a short burst of time, or not affect allies at all.

Your change, on the other hand, adds functionality to let allies control their own volley of shots, by giving them a means to unpause their bullets. Assuming that unpausing would apply damage just as visibly as always, this removes stasis's downside of causing ranged weaponry to not give adequate feedback on how much damage any given enemy will take.

Thank you for the compliment! I've been giving it some thought since the rework, and have suggested several different ideas such as slowing ally projectiles in the Rift and gradually stopping them (Dio-style), resuming their flight when ally projectiles hit a lower threshold than the 300 limit, etc. Still, it didn't feel like those ideas addressed the whole picture (Rift play experience), just focused on making Stasis behave differently for allies.

There is actually a tradeoff for allies in this change that I feel balances out the extra functionality. Since they must Rift Walk to unpause their Rift-bound projectiles, allies must expose themselves to enemies in the material plane however briefly. That window of opportunity is a double-edged sword that can be rewarding and exhilarating for the player. Risk vs. reward.

Since Limbo has to deactivate Stasis for his own projectiles to resume flight, enemies will be allowed to move, the dynamic and balance there remains intact.

8 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

The only other things I'd specifically like to ask for are just some "small" changes to make the rift more easily seen:

• Apply Mirage's Hall-of-mirrors see-through effect to enemies not on the same plane as the player.
• Apply a color or sound effect to the rift to indicated when it is stasis-ed, and have it change in hue/tone as it approaches it's end.

Translucency on opposite plane enemies is interesting and immersive. Depending on the opacity, it is similar to seeing only the enemy's silhouette which fits the theme of the Rift Plane being the "land of shadow and substance". Most of the time players won't be trying to land headshots on enemies that they can't deal weapon damage to anyway, with a few exceptions related to exalted weapons. I would certainly like to see it in practice.

More indication of active Stasis is definitely a good addition in my book. The Borderlands outlines already wobble violently when Stasis limit is close, and that adds a nice touch to the visuals of the Rift while serving a dual purpose.

3 hours ago, Cyphrus said:

Hey just wanted to chime in here and say I really like your suggestions for limbo @PsiWarp

Most of the (horrible) suggestions I see just want to turn limbo into a rift buff bot and take away his power, you on the other hand have made it so Limbo can still be a kind of melee battle mage damage dealer still; while giving his allies an option to control their own projectiles. This should tone down the sad hate on Limbo which the poor guy sorely needs because he is an absolute amazing damage frame who gets a bad rep because of bad(troll) players.

So all in all I really hope DE takes a look at this and implements your ideas because it changes nothing while changing everything ;)

Thanks! Glad you like them ^-^!

Raising Limbo's reputation is absolutely a goal to strive for, both for us mad hatters and the devs. He really is an amazing Warframe. I loathe to see his potential go to waste and forever sit in limbo that is the hall of infamy in Warframe history.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

Edited February 4, 2018 by PsiWarp

[AzureFlash]

I hate Limbo and Limbo players, always have, always will. Your fake niceness won't change that. Reworks won't change that. I've had too many horrible encounters with Limbo to ever trust one again or have fun with one on my squad. If I see a Limbo, I leave. If a friend of mine picks Limbo, I do the mission separately and rejoin them if they decide to switch.

His kit isn't the problem, a minority of trolls isn't the problem, the very idea of a rift is the problem, and players who support Limbo and the idea of rifts are part of the problem. It can NEVER work. You'll always monopolize the battlefield, marginalize your teammates and make it all about yourself and your hats.

Whatever you think you can do to raise Limbo's reputation, I'll be against it.

[KodokunaSora]

thats your opinion azure, not everyone's, and your basically labeling limbo when he can be good, just because he isnt your cup of tea, doesnt mean that he deserve this hate, every frame has its purpose and playstyle, if it isnt your cup of tea and you hate it so much, pls move along because this isnt the thread for this, this is for constructive criticism and a different view on how to make limbo less harmful and more team oriented playable, my suggestion is move along with your argument into another place that express hate towards limbo no matter what if you may.

[AzureFlash]

He did say "comments of any kind are appreciated!" ... That's my constructive criticism: Limbo just doesn't belong in Warframe, plain and simple. The best thing DE could do in my eyes would be to start working on a script to refund Limbo owners and change his quest to be about something else.

[PsiWarp]

Please don't assume my sincerity as false. That has nothing to do with the fact I play Limbo, just as your friends do from time to time. I'm not here to convince you to change your mind, since I'm sure most people here (myself included) have been jaded by encounters with Limbos before, but I am here to let the developers know there is plenty of room for improvement.

If you find faults in this proposed solution, feel free to point them out for discussion.

Edited February 5, 2018 by PsiWarp

[KodokunaSora]

again, thats being bias because you hate him, he does belong and he has lore behind him, like i said if it isnt your cup of tea pls, just try to keep that hate to yourself, i like limbo but i do understand how he can hurt the team, but saying that he doesnt belong in warframe is complete bias of your part, sorry to say this but your argument doesnt explain or evidence why he should be put away and destroy theme/etc, if you wish to get rid of the theme then, make a suggestion how you would rework it.

[ljmadruga]

As a Limbo main, I highly appreciate the changes mentioned by the OP. However there is still one flaw; newer players will not know what the hell is going on when a Limbo is in squad.

At this point, I’d suggest putting a detailed explanation of every warframe’s powers directly into the codex, rather than a copy of the market page.

[KodokunaSora]

btw in other notes, i like the changes you did psi, very good and makes very interesting, there is few ideas i have that i might post it when i organize but really great concept ^_^ 

[ljmadruga]

@[DE]Pablo Take a look!

[chainchompguy3]

@AzureFlash echoes a conclusion I came to a long time ago.

He's not totally wrong, in an almost-objective kind of way.

 

Limbo will probably always have issues. Because by it's very nature, the Rift controls the battlefield. But by the nature of the fact that only Limbo has control over it, it means that only Limbo can control the battlefield.

A controls B, only B controls C, therefore, "only" A controls C.

Technically, there's nothing wrong with this. Giving the player this kind of control is very engaging, and can create amazingly fun scenarios for Limbo and ally alike.

But this depends heavily on 2 things:

1. Allies of Limbo are willing to give this power to him, and let him control their battlefield, give them orders.

2. Limbo is communicative, describing his intents and actions to his team, and taking feedback into consideration.

 

Unfortunately, however, this is not the kind of game to foster those key factors:

1. This game is about self-power fantasy. Giving up power to another player often defeats the purpose of that, at least in the moment (long-term, having a good Limbo in control means that the whole team is made immensely more powerful, nigh unstoppable.)

2. In all my time of playing Warframe, I've only ever heard someone use Voice-chat twice: and one of those times was by accident! Communicating does not seem to be a major focus of this game.

 

So we have to do what we can to transfer some control of the rift from Limbo to his allies, without making Limbo powerless in the process.

We've tried giving allies a means of Leaving at will, that wasn't enough. We tried also letting them hop into the portals limbo leaves behind, those ended up an annoyance, and now we're trying to just flat out give players their own rift-walk ability.

We're making progress. I personally believe giving allies their own rift-walk-roll means they won't ever be locked off from a particular part of the battlefield: Rift-world or material world. They will always have input, and agency.

 

But they will still be forced to change what they're doing if Limbo banishes their target(s), either by following their target across the rift, or finding a new target.

And I can understand if Azure thinks that's still too much interference. I'd argue that Kill-stealing has a very comparable effect, and that applies to all frames, but I'd still understand, and for the most part leave him to his opinion.

 

 

 

 

But that's arguing about the ideas behind current limbo. This thread is moreso intended to discuss the ideas behind Proposed-changes Limbo.

So I'll end my digression here.

[PsiWarp]

Shenanigans in the Simulacrum tonight has revealed an interesting find. Rift Surge's on-kill surge jump actually uses Limbo's cast range (25 m) instead of the tiny banish area (5 m), but around the killed enemy instead. If Rift Surge prioritized jumping to allies without Rift Walk, then they don't have to be hugging surged enemies to get into the action quickly.

@chainchompguy3 Well said. Limbo is designed to control the flow of the battlefield, to divide it as he sees fit. We just need to reduce the participation forced upon teammates to being optional at more tolerable levels, so they can feel compelled rather than irritated to work alongside Limbo as he does his thing to advance the team's goals.

As for Rift Walk, I mean, they can come up with new ways for teammates to cross planes. It just happens to work and after 4 years of rolling to unbanish it's pretty much muscle-memory.

And I agree with @ljmadruga to integrate a more detailed section on what each Warframe can do in the Codex and perhaps linked via a tab in the Market diorama. They don't have to write it up themselves, just ask for submissions in the Design Council or as a part of a public contest.

I look forward to reading your ideas @JellalOuma!

[AzureFlash]

Before I get the ban I deserve, I'd like to acknowledge that part of my first post was out of line (talking about the players and not just Limbo itself), and I'm sorry to PsiWarp for saying he was faking being nice. Ironically, fake nice would've been better than what I've added to this thread...

You've obviously spent more time thinking of how to improve Limbo than I've even spent hating it... I hope it does get better. It would be nice seeing a Limbo and knowing for sure he won't get in the way of me shooting or using abilities, won't hack me off hacking consoles (my most traumatic memory to be honest)...

Good luck guys.

[LuckyCharm]

Well this is a more positive thread about limbo than I expected. Anything to make limbo less of the frame that makes me abandon missions is a + from me

 

[EothasianBoar]

This is actually kind of nice.
Currently, Limbo is extremely powerful when the whole team are playing around him or be crippled and can't do anything.
This allowing Limbo's teammate to control what they are doing while still keeping the theme of his abilities. I love this conservative styled rework.

In my own opinion, giving teammate his energy gain per rift kill is a bit excessive. It's there because Limbo need to turn his ability on and off a lot. For teammate, the current 2 energy per second is enough. If you want to have Limbo throw an energy rift party, maybe a rift energy per second boost? Instead of getting 10 per kill, they get a short-lived, stacking buff to their rift plane energy regeneration.
Extra 0.5 energy per second for 3 seconds, unaffected by duration mod, up to 5 stacks. Buff the base regeneration from 2 to 2.5 per second, and at max stack, you get 5 energy per second as long as you keep killing in the rift. That is Zenurik level of energy gain. Kind of.
This way we don't get 100-150 energy per second, because we can easily kill 10-15 enemies per second in this game.

 

[Sintag]

Can we please just...

Get this entire rework?  That'd be amazing.

[KodokunaSora]

ok some of my ideas are around using the rift has DoT damage type or status procs while providing great CC

- while enemies are banish or inside cataclysm it does DoT damage (just like hydroid's puddle) that scales with time. This could be overpowered if stasis remain so, once stasis is active the DoT will stop and has the OP tweaks stated it and be helping with some DoT.

- while enemies are banish or inside cataclysm, they will suffer a proc that reduces armor or (like shattering impact) reduction to armor over time has they stay inside the rift. Like in the previous one, however going more towards status procs and once stasis is active so those the status procs stop. 

 

its some of the ideas i came up with that could give limbo another touch, specially with the second one since armor reduction would be insanely great for the team and could help with endless missions. The ideas came up since there are in another dimension, the enemies should encounter problem with breathing since is another dimension in time and space and feeling strangled to death if they stay more on the rift. This would be an addition to what the OP stated to give Limbo a kinda niche damage dealing over time or the scaling status proc or armor removal. If i come up with more ideas  will post them. ^_^

PD: the numbers i haven't though about them if you guys have any ideas of what numbers should be pls add and any tweaks you did has well ^_^

[PsiWarp]

Updated the OP with a new Stasis illustration (from counter tracking the exact number of projectiles and bullets, to percentage of how close it is to the 300 limit). Reason being that some weapons' projectiles have an artificially induced lower limit that breaks Stasis to keep game performance stable, so the exact number being frozen is often inaccurate when accounting for beam weapons and those special cases.

@AzureFlash Thanks for chiming in again. I'm glad you held true to your stance on the matter and shared one of the many gripes with Limbo that warrants fixing. I've added it to the OP for exposure.

@AhLiu338 Indeed, just slapping the passive onto rift-bound enemies as a property of the Rift Plane would be overkill. A stacking boost to energy regen based on kills made sounds good, since it rewards proactive gameplay inside the Rift rather than just sitting around waiting for your pool to fill up.

Question, would this stacked buff work for ability kills on enemies that are outside the Rift? How about material-bound allies killing rift-bound enemies (one of the problems with "invulnerable" enemies that only abilities can kill)? I feel that returning or refunding some energy to allies who "needed" to use abilities to kill rift-bound enemies would alleviate some of the frustrations of dealing with enemies they can't shoot or slash away.

Thanks @LuckyCharm and @Sintag, glad you're on board with this!

@JellalOuma Interesting ideas. I have seen damage-over-time in the Rift suggested before, alongside some procs like Radiation or Corrosive. Would the DoT/armor reduction be innate properties of the Rift Plane or part of the abilities (which makes them moddable)? I certainly don't mind more negative effects on enemies inside the Rift to confer more advantages for the team for bringing the battlefield in there.

[Biddion]

If I read everything correctly, these are all great ideas. It seems that other players would be able to let their own projectiles fly whenever they wanted by returning to the physical plane and would only enter the void plane by rolling into it themselves.

Someone commented on Limbo's powers confusing new players. I don't think new players would run into Limbo too much for that to be a concern. Also, other frames powers have the ability to confuse new players too. I know for a while I didn't know what the red meant when playing alongside an Ash.

[chainchompguy3]

20 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

@JellalOuma Interesting ideas. I have seen damage-over-time in the Rift suggested before, alongside some procs like Radiation or Corrosive. Would the DoT/armor reduction be innate properties of the Rift Plane or part of the abilities (which makes them moddable)? I certainly don't mind more negative effects on enemies inside the Rift to confer more advantages for the team for bringing the battlefield in there.

I'm personally of the mindset that this idea should be kept as simple as possible. Additional rift effects are nice and all, and are certainly on-the-table as far as I am concerned. But I don't want to potentially clutter this basic, elegant fix to limbo with possible other effects that could maybe be seen as controversial.

 

Additionally, I was thinking, how are the initial changes going to interact with Nullification?

If a player is nullified, do they lose the "rift walk" buff itself, or are they just yanked out of the rift, but retain the buff?

the former is more consistent with Nullification, but the latter is consistent with Limbo's hop-in-and-out-of the rift tactics.

If a player has projectiles frozen in stasis, and is in the rift, but then gets nullified, would that count to firing the projectiles?

If nullification removes the "Rift Walk" buff, but the rift walk buff seems to be tied to allies ability to unpause their projectiles, then what happens?

Will the ability to nullify "rift walk" be limited to the Buff-removing Scrambus/comba, or will it be something that ALL scrambus/comba can nullify?

[EetNotErn]

On 2/4/2018 at 7:02 PM, AzureFlash said:

He did say "comments of any kind are appreciated!" ... That's my constructive criticism: Limbo just doesn't belong in Warframe, plain and simple. The best thing DE could do in my eyes would be to start working on a script to refund Limbo owners and change his quest to be about something else.

What part of your comment was constructive? You even said you'd be against ANY and ALL thoughts on raising Limbo's reputation. Doesn't sound like someone who is constructive at all.