Discussion - The memeing strike problem

[Rociel]

Now, before you rage and lose your S#&$ about me having the audacity to threaten your riven investment, please hear me out.

tl;dr How and why would you change the Maiming Strike? (keep it constructive)

It is clear as day that Maiming Strike mod right now is an outlier that creates the problem of sliding people with Scoliac and Atterax. Some love it, some hate it and due to this, a large portion of community becomes divided, which is bad.

Seeing how things are and that clearly DE do not want their players to run around doing nothing but pressing the same button without even aiming and yet clearing a room, it is fair to assume that at some point the balance hammer will hit Maiming Strike as well. And judging by our community's reaction to every change, once DE announce them, S#&$ hits the fan and it's hard to get any constructive criticism out of the community.

I propose that we constructively discuss this now, the possible ways Maiming Strike could get a change, still making it a viable and good mod for those that already use it, yet not being so overpowered and promoting macro-atterax kind of gameplay.

I shall start with my S#&$ty idea:

I think the Maiming Strike should keep the values and calculation, but they should decrease by the amount of enemies hit with it. e.g. 1 enemy = 90% 2 enemies = 80%, but to not make it complete garbage, cap it at 10%, which can still be a notable increase if you are hitting a room full of enemies. This way it would still remain a viable mod for those who like to slide by default (like me), but would not encourage clearing a whole room with one hit, because you would loose your crits and would be better off working with smaller range.

[Xrkr]

Split the effect of the mod into different mods that could only be equipped by certain weapon types (like the status/elementals). So there would be one for dual daggers, daggers, maybe other short-range weapons. Make it unavailable for weapons with superior reach. Revert the effect back to what it was when it was released (activated on any melee attack performed while sliding, to include sliding air-melee, combo strikes performed while sliding (only applicable to certain weapons/stances) and spin attacks). All I can think of atm.

Edit: Making it specific to different weapon types will should* also prevent it from being applicable to Atlas' Landslide, which apparently was also a thing when Maiming Strike was released.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Xrkr

[Wakda]

I think biggest problem with Maiming Strike is that some people have it and some not.

And mostly, people that dont have it, dont want people that have it to be able to quickmelee higher lvl enemies in dangerous situation, only because they are unable to, because their ability to obtain it is impaired by some unfathomable barrier, so they whine.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Wakda

[Rociel]

11 minutes ago, Wakda said:

I think biggest problem with Maiming Strike is that some people have it and some not.

And mostly, people that dont have it, dont want people that have it to be able to quickmelee higher lvl enemies in dangerous situation, only because they are unable to, because their ability to obtain it is impaired by some unfathomable barrier, so they whine.

I would argue that because I have seen quite a lot of people commenting on how annoying it is to see people macro-sliding the whole time and clearing a room before anyone else can do anything. People that have maiming strike themselves just dislike using it.

[Maercurial]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Rociel:

 People that have maiming strike themselves just dislike using it.

That's just wrong, some might dislike it but for others like me it's the best thing that ever happened to melee, there's nothing comparable in the game to sliding into a group of enemies and see them dying left and right. I would never use macros as I'm used to the combo, people who see me using it would probably think I'm using one but I don't. I've just built the slide attacks into my moveset and rythm of playing the game because I enjoy doing it.

As such, I don't want any change to it. Is it effective? Yes. Is it powerful? No doubt. Does it need a nerf, no, especially not the kind of nerf that was already suggested here three posts in. Removing it on the only weapon type it's useful (long range) is like removing it from the game entirely, no one has that thing on a Dagger for good reason, it's pathetic to use it on low range weapons, and not efficient at all.

So my suggestion on the maiming Strike issue is quite simple: Don't listen to the nerf everything powerful mentality for once. I'd like to see it being more common tho, the Mod is way too rare and the prices on the market are insane. Either the Acolytes should appear more often for people to be able to acquire it, or there should be additional means to do so. For a Mod that is pretty much essential on Polearms and Whips, it's way too expensive, therefore people are jealous and calling for a nerf. 

[Guest]

TBH, maiming strike helps my low crit weapons with Berserker so I wouldn't like it to be nerfed.

I don't even use it for spin to win. 

[GinKenshin]

I’d remove it from the game :D 

 

idk, LoS maybe? 

[Rociel]

3 minutes ago, Maercurial said:

That's just wrong, some might dislike it but for others like me it's the best thing that ever happened to melee

I mentioned in my original post that there are people that like it and it's perfectly fine, even if I don't think it should split a part of community.

My intention is to gather the opinion on viable options how to change it, if DE do decide to change it, so that a "Maiming Strike has crit chance reduced to 20%" kind of thing doesn't come to pass.

However, yeah, an opinion that it doesn't need a change at all is a valid one too, as long as you have arguments to support it.

[Rociel]

2 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

idk, LoS maybe? 

Line of sight, I assume?

[Marekthejester]

The only problem is the interaction between Maiming Strike and Blood Rush. Maiming strike alone is not that overpowered and could be really useful to give a different playstyle. Like allowing very low crit weapon to work with berserker.

I see two solution to it :
 

Either make blood rush not affect the Maiming Strike crit chance (or any slide crit chance).

Or make maiming strike give an increase of the base crit chance (Like normal crit chance bonus does) instead of a flat crit chance.

My preference goes to the first option, it would remove the overpowerness of Maiming strike while still keeping it powerfull and useful.

[GinKenshin]

12 minutes ago, Rociel said:

Line of sight, I assume?

Yup, or make range mods to not affect the spin attack range 

[Maercurial]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Rociel:

My intention is to gather the opinion on viable options how to change it, if DE do decide to change it, so that a "Maiming Strike has crit chance reduced to 20%" kind of thing doesn't come to pass.

Well, if the devs decide it needs to be changed (although I wouldn't like that) then I'd hope for a negative stat on the mod without changing the positive, maybe increased crit chance as it is, but reduce Crit damage to make it a bit less powerful.

Something like:

+90% Crit Chance while Sliding, -30 % Crit damage while Sliding. That'd overall keep the playstyle itself intact, just making it slightly less effective numbers-wise because you sacrifice a bit of your crit damage in return for a higher chance. As someone who likes Maiming Strike, that's a change I could live with at least. Although as said, I don't think it's required, it's nowhere near the AoE of the popular map wide nerf-targets, and you can't be afk while doing so, it's still interactive to use it.

vor 1 Minute schrieb Marekthejester:

The only problem is the interaction between Maiming Strike and Blood Rush. Maiming strike alone is not that overpowered and could be really useful to give a different playstyle. Like allowing very low crit weapon to work with berserker.

I see two solution to it :
 

Either make blood rush not affect the Maiming Strike crit chance (or any slide crit chance).

Or make maiming strike give an increase of the base crit chance (Like normal crit chance bonus does) instead of a flat crit chance.

My preference goes to the first option, it would remove the overpowerness of Maiming strike while still keeping it powerfull and useful.

Both of these are quite severe, it only scales well because of the interaction with Blood Rush, and for Blood Rush to stack up that high, you need to keep your combo counter going, so it doesn't come for no effort, so I think that interaction is fine, but that suggestion is still better compared to your second suggestion, that'll completely make it useless, + 90% to base is barely anything for most weapons.

[KaineKaneChing]

I'd be triggered as hell since I use atterax/scoliac primarily to farm focus. There aren't any reliable ways to farm focus due to how bonker the system already are.

Edited February 4, 2018 by KaineKaneChing

[JohnKable]

1 hour ago, Wakda said:

I think biggest problem with Maiming Strike is that some people have it and some not.

And mostly, people that dont have it, dont want people that have it to be able to quickmelee higher lvl enemies in dangerous situation, only because they are unable to, because their ability to obtain it is impaired by some unfathomable barrier, so they whine.

Thats not the problem of maiming strike, i have 3 of it and i would be glad if they change it completely.

But i linda lost hope when its stat was included in rivens.

they changed the whole movement because slidemelee was the best way to move around, now how can be ok than slidemelee is the best way to deal damage?

AND also it is locked behind a unobtainable mod and a primed mod (and for crazy results also a riven mod).

probably the limited availability is the only thing keeping it as it is.

if everybody had  a minmaxed scoliac/guandao/other, trust me nobody would complain about ember because people would be doing the same thing of cleaning maps while running but faster and not limited to under lvl40 only 

[Cloud]

1 hour ago, Rociel said:

Now, before you rage and lose your S#&$ about me having the audacity to threaten your riven investment, please hear me out.

tl;dr How and why would you change the Maiming Strike? (keep it constructive)

It is clear as day that Maiming Strike mod right now is an outlier that creates the problem of sliding people with Scoliac and Atterax. Some love it, some hate it and due to this, a large portion of community becomes divided, which is bad.

Seeing how things are and that clearly DE do not want their players to run around doing nothing but pressing the same button without even aiming and yet clearing a room, it is fair to assume that at some point the balance hammer will hit Maiming Strike as well. And judging by our community's reaction to every change, once DE announce them, S#&$ hits the fan and it's hard to get any constructive criticism out of the community.

I propose that we constructively discuss this now, the possible ways Maiming Strike could get a change, still making it a viable and good mod for those that already use it, yet not being so overpowered and promoting macro-atterax kind of gameplay.

I shall start with my S#&$ty idea:

I think the Maiming Strike should keep the values and calculation, but they should decrease by the amount of enemies hit with it. e.g. 1 enemy = 90% 2 enemies = 80%, but to not make it complete garbage, cap it at 10%, which can still be a notable increase if you are hitting a room full of enemies. This way it would still remain a viable mod for those who like to slide by default (like me), but would not encourage clearing a whole room with one hit, because you would loose your crits and would be better off working with smaller range.

the problem is that melee slide is actually the only smart and fun way to use melee. Without it melee would just be ignored, because in the time I perform the stupid dance combo on 2-3 enemies I could have clean the map with other weapons or abilties.

If DE would touch maiming strike they should also rework how melee and combos work because it's just plain stupid to have single target slow dancing combos in a frenetic horde game like Warframe.

[Rociel]

9 minutes ago, KaineKaneChing said:

I'd be triggered as hell since I use atterax/scoliac primarily to farm focus. There aren't any reliable ways to farm focus due to how bonker the system already are.

What would you be doing if there were no Maiming Strike to begin with?
If you had to agree to a compromise, what kind of change could you live with even if barely?

 

5 minutes ago, Cloud said:

the problem is that melee slide is actually the only smart and fun way to use melee. Without it melee would just be ignored, because in the time I perform the stupid dance combo on 2-3 enemies I could have clean the map with other weapons or abilties.

I have a staff Zaw that I initially built for sliding (because I liked sliding before it was cool) and I have maiming strike on it, but I quickly found out that the stance is so fun to use, that I barely ever slide with it. I prefer using the combos. Staffs have pretty good range too, so I am a bit more limited if I'm not sliding, but I still can hit several enemies at the same time with it. Just saying that it's definitely not the only fun way to use melee.

[mikami666134]

1 hour ago, Marekthejester said:

The only problem is the interaction between Maiming Strike and Blood Rush. Maiming strike alone is not that overpowered and could be really useful to give a different playstyle. Like allowing very low crit weapon to work with berserker.

I see two solution to it :
 

Either make blood rush not affect the Maiming Strike crit chance (or any slide crit chance).

Or make maiming strike give an increase of the base crit chance (Like normal crit chance bonus does) instead of a flat crit chance.

My preference goes to the first option, it would remove the overpowerness of Maiming strike while still keeping it powerfull and useful.

i fully agree with the first option here. Even with it implemented, the meme will still one shot star-chart enemies. I also think that it is what was intended out of the mod (just a personal opinion). Besides atterax got a base 20% chance anyway, so i reckon it'd still be a god-tier weapon.

On the argument on inviability of melee without maiming strike, you people really need to start using naramon's void stalker -Tried it on lacera and did better than 2 teammates WITH ATTERAX on Mot-. I do agree that some immobile stances make it nigh impossible to primarily use melee without a tanky or invis frame.

[KaineKaneChing]

26 minutes ago, Rociel said:

What would you be doing if there were no Maiming Strike to begin with?
If you had to agree to a compromise, what kind of change could you live with even if barely?

At this point if it doesn't exist the price for the riven of the respective weapons would skyrocket it's like one of their competitor had been eliminated. If we're trying to achieve the "balance" the right way would be to completely remove the sliding attack altogether but that'd be simply impossible itself on the term "ninjas have to move quickly to kill as swiftly as possible" which is the entire concept of warframe itself.

The word compromise is a very big term itself but since you wanted my preferences I think it'd be some sort of overheat or cooldown feature like decrease in damage as the multiplier rise or X numbers of enemies killed so you have to wait it up until it resets itself. It's feasible at this point since most of us are killing at insane speed as the convergence orb durations goes but when it's over it's pretty okay to idle around for a while until the next orb appears. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by KaineKaneChing

[Khift]

The Atterax isn't even the best Maiming Strike weapon. If you know how the calculations work, there are zaw recipes that do double the damage of the Atterax with Maiming Strike without adding in a riven. After a riven, my Mewan does four times the damage of the best Atterax build, and it one-shots enemies even in sortie 3.

Both of the suggested changes, which are changing how it interacts with Blood Rush to make it add its crit chance after Blood Rush multiplies it, or to make Maiming Strike's 90% crit chance be multiplicative and not additive, will about halve the damage of the builds. Both of these are good changes, and would do a lot to reigning the build in, but let's be real folks - even at half damage it's still quite ridiculous, it just means you can't use it in sorties any more.

[mikami666134]

I do point out that at higher combo counter it'll cripple the build.

Still, there's lots of things in this game that's ridiculous on non sortie missions. that's just how the game is. 

[Marekthejester]

il y a une heure, Maercurial a dit :

Well, if the devs decide it needs to be changed (although I wouldn't like that) then I'd hope for a negative stat on the mod without changing the positive, maybe increased crit chance as it is, but reduce Crit damage to make it a bit less powerful.

Something like:

+90% Crit Chance while Sliding, -30 % Crit damage while Sliding. That'd overall keep the playstyle itself intact, just making it slightly less effective numbers-wise because you sacrifice a bit of your crit damage in return for a higher chance. As someone who likes Maiming Strike, that's a change I could live with at least. Although as said, I don't think it's required, it's nowhere near the AoE of the popular map wide nerf-targets, and you can't be afk while doing so, it's still interactive to use it.

It wouldn't nerf anything, it wouldn't even impact the mod since for each combo count you will raise your crit chance by more than 100% and doing so, increase your damage by more than 100% each time. So the-30% damage on an infinitely scaling damage is not really useful...
 

il y a une heure, Maercurial a dit :

Both of these are quite severe, it only scales well because of the interaction with Blood Rush, and for Blood Rush to stack up that high, you need to keep your combo counter going, so it doesn't come for no effort, so I think that interaction is fine, but that suggestion is still better compared to your second suggestion, that'll completely make it useless, + 90% to base is barely anything for most weapons.

What effort are you refering to ? Not forget to hit an ennemy every ten second or so ? Plus you do know that naramon can pretty much prevent your combo counter to drop at all ?

il y a 45 minutes, Cloud a dit :

the problem is that melee slide is actually the only smart and fun way to use melee. Without it melee would just be ignored, because in the time I perform the stupid dance combo on 2-3 enemies I could have clean the map with other weapons or abilties.

If DE would touch maiming strike they should also rework how melee and combos work because it's just plain stupid to have single target slow dancing combos in a frenetic horde game like Warframe.

I think you really need to experiment more with melee. Because melee is very strong and fun even without sliding all the time. However i do agree that most additional combo on weapon are hard to perform and not that usefull. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Marekthejester

[Khift]

7 minutes ago, mikami666134 said:

I do point out that at higher combo counter it'll cripple the build.

Still, there's lots of things in this game that's ridiculous on non sortie missions. that's just how the game is. 

By a lot less than you'd think, actually. The "post-Blood Rush" variant is still doing 38% of the current setup even at a 4x combo counter, and the "multiplicative not additive" variant goes from 53% at 1.5x to 51% at 4x.

I actually built a spreadsheet a while ago to get a grasp on how utterly ridiculous Maiming Strike builds can be. It's really useful for evaluating things like this.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Khift

[mikami666134]

No it's actually as high as i think it is (i also build spreadsheets xD).

Im assuming the numbers on both came out on a weapon with 20%+ crit chance?

[Khift]

A picture's worth a thousand words.

Build A is the current Atterax meme build. Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach, Primed Fever Strike, Blood Rush, Berserker, Body Count, Organ Shatter, Maiming Strike.

Build B is the same, but with Maiming Strike being multiplicative crit chance and not additive.

Build C is also the same, but with Maiming Strike's additive crit being added after Blood Rush multiplies it.

The Atterax is a little more sensitive to these changes than the Mewan build I was quoting numbers from earlier, but this should give some context here. The multiplicative nerf is definitely the least painful, and to be real it wouldn't be so bad if they also buffed the % from 90 to 120 or even 150%. Make it like Argon Scope, because +90% crit isn't super hot when you also have to do something special to get it.

[Khift]

1 minute ago, mikami666134 said:

No it's actually as high as i think it is (i also build spreadsheets xD).

Im assuming the numbers on both came out on a weapon with 20%+ crit chance?

If it's as bad as you say then there's something wrong with your spreadsheet, or you aren't using weapons tailor made for Maiming Strike, or you aren't accounting for full builds.

The numbers I'd quoted previously were for a Mewan / Seekala / Vargeet II Ruhang Zaw, which is IMO the best Maiming Strike weapon in the game if you can stand to lose a little range compared to the Atterax.