[Balance lifehack] Easy way to make warframes balaced without any ability nerf

[---UMBRA---]

Add abilities cooldown. It is very simple and good solution. I dont know any balanced game where all active abilities do not have cooldowns. 

 

And there is a question how to decrease it? 

Also simple answer - add to focus trees passives that decreases CD, (F.E. madurai passive decrease DD abilities CD and etc)

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by ---UMBRA---

[Zephyr_TheMLGPro]

That would slow down the gameplay even more. Not to mention the community outburst.

[---UMBRA---]

Только что, Zephyr_TheMLGPro сказал:

That would slow down the gameplay even more. Not to mention the community outburst.

Of course that is a goal. To delete faceroll gameplay, where frames deletes the map.

[saradonin]

26 minutes ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

To delete faceroll gameplay, where frames deletes the map.

You'd have to delete the game to do that.

[Adniwhack]

Well, I guess one or two abilities do have cooldowns (Oberons Phoenix Renewal), but having cooldowns will seriously block much of the gameplay mechanics, and in a game where we play as powerful space ninjas, this would seriously be the bane of that.

Also, cooldowns do not make sense in a PvE game..... :D

Edited February 5, 2018 by Adniwhack
Added one more point

[Urlan]

32 minutes ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

Add abilities cooldown. It is very simple and good solution. I dont know any balanced game where all active abilities do not have cooldowns. 

 

And there is a question how to decrease it? 

Also simple answer - add to focus trees passives that decreases CD, (F.E. madurai passive decrease DD abilities CD and etc)

 

Its something DE Scott has said is not a path that DE wants to go. As is Excalibur's Radial Blind has a short cool-down, face-rolling isn't usually an issue with players however.

[---UMBRA---]

Только что, Adniwhack сказал:

Well, I guess one or two abilities do have cooldowns (Oberons Phoenix Renewal), but having cooldowns will seriously block much of the gameplay mechanics, and in a game where we play as powerful space ninjas, this would seriously be the bane of that.

Yes powerfull, but game needs that spam limits. To make usual game levels harder and raids even more.

[Umbrasi]

Please DE. never give this guy a job in your development team

[---UMBRA---]

Without CDs warframe will never be balanced

Edited February 5, 2018 by ---UMBRA---

[Xaero]

Knew it would be cooldown before I clicked.

Unfortunately, with this feature implemented ALL existing abilities would have to be reworked to perform properly.

[Mk.1]

N O

[Adniwhack]

Just now, Ksaero said:

Knew it would be cooldown before I clicked.

Unfortunately, with this feature implemented ALL existing abilities would have to be reworked to perform properly.

 

This is exactly what I wanted to point out. 

And don't talk about balancing in a PvE game. This is a fundamental problem in Warframe, where scaling is defined by Scaling of enemy health AND Armor, and not the mechanics on how to defeat an enemy

[CarrotSalad]

it's bad enough we have energy drain slowing us down... I vote for no cooldowns...

Other games have variable pacing allowing players to actually rely on other mechanics during times of cooldown. Cooldowns being mostly focused around burst damage. Warframe doesnt really have such mechanics that allow players to delay or increase pacing. I like it that way honestly ability spam is fun.

It's just some abilities like world on fire tear through enemies too well.

[---UMBRA---]

11 минут назад, CarrotSalad сказал:

it's bad enough we have energy drain slowing us down... I vote for no cooldowns...

Other games have variable pacing allowing players to actually rely on other mechanics during times of cooldown. Cooldowns being mostly focused around burst damage. Warframe doesnt really have such mechanics that allow players to delay or increase pacing. I like it that way honestly ability spam is fun.

It's just some abilities like world on fire tear through enemies too well.

hmm there is a lot of game where characters have energy and CD. Spamming abilities without CD - it is not fun. It is just clicking one button. When the game challenge you, when you need to think, when you need a perfect timing, when you always know that you can die very easily everywhere - it is a real fun. As a veteran player who saw everything and have everything  I say that CD will solve warframes problem

Edited February 5, 2018 by ---UMBRA---

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

I'd rather more unique resource systems like Nidus. Building and then being able to save/use abilities when you have no energy feels great.

[rudman88]

you must understand what this community wants.

they are weird troublesome customer.

 

They want a fast pace but not too fast = nerf and balance.

they want to press more button not lesser. so they can only balance and rework the ability

they want the game to be tougher and harder at the same time they crying the new players are suffering.

 

so as long it does not increase the pace it will be a no

 

 

[rune_me]

3 hours ago, Adniwhack said:

Well, I guess one or two abilities do have cooldowns (Oberons Phoenix Renewal), but having cooldowns will seriously block much of the gameplay mechanics, and in a game where we play as powerful space ninjas, this would seriously be the bane of that.

Also, cooldowns do not make sense in a PvE game..... :D

Diablo 2 (and 3) has cooldowns and is a PvE game and it works fine, though. In no way does it make you feel less powerful. In fact I feel far more powerful in Diablo than I ever did in Warframe. 

3 hours ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

When the game challenge you, when you need to think, when you need a perfect timing, when you always know that you can die very easily everywhere - it is a real fun.

That is not what this game is. It never was and never will be. This game is about making you feel like swooping into a mission, wipe the floor with anything that tries to stop you, get out, then do it all over again. If you are a veteran player you should know this by now. The game you're describing is a game like Dark Souls, which is fun, but is never what Warframe tried to be or wants to be.

[blaes]

28 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Diablo 2 (and 3) has cooldowns and is a PvE game and it works fine, though. In no way does it make you feel less powerful. In fact I feel far more powerful in Diablo than I ever did in Warframe. 

diablo 3 has more skills without cooldown than it does with (60% against 40%). Cooldown skills also tend to be insanely powerful, and a big part of them can be used with 0 downtime so the cooldown on those is largely irrelevant. And you can use 6 skills, that you choose from 20+ for each class, which lets you set-up more combos than the 4 fixed skills in warframe allow you, negating even more cooldowns/downtime.

[CarrotSalad]

3 hours ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

When the game challenge you,

If i want challenge i'll play league of legends, Dirt Rally, or Unreal tournament or as rune above me says Dark souls. What kills games like warframe to me is when they try and be something they're not. Is there 1 thing warframe does better than any other game? Its a great formula in its current state. But if you stripped warframes movement and no cd ability systems out it would not stand. Because it would then be doing exactly what dragon nest, blade and soul, league of legends, splatoon, street fighter next MMO do.

This "balance idea" does exist in waframe but perhaps not in the environment that suits you. As i understands is already in warframes PVP environment. To move such ideas from PVP to PVE environment would see this games community boil the way destiny 2 has been progressing over 4 months. (Just take a peak at whats going on at Blizzards forums every minute of everyday for the last few months. Nothing but angry post after angry post over the nerfs and reduction in ability spam.

It's not a bad idea but it doesnt fit in warframes PVE environment. Given the outcry of some in the community i think its good to scan for solution to abilities like WOF but any change needs to keep the community involved to prevent a snowball of anger from tearing the game apart.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

DE have never been a fan of cooldowns for abilities, ever since Warframe started they've avoided it. adding cooldowns now would not only irk 99% of the community, but it would also require reworking EVERY Warframe ability to have an appropriate cooldown for what the power gives. that takes way too much effort for a system that would only alienate players.

Edited February 5, 2018 by (PS4)robotwars7

[Kuestenjung]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ---UMBRA---:

Without CDs warframe will never be balanced

Warframe will never be balanced, no matter if DE would add cooldown or not. And what is the point of energy cost if there are also cooldowns? Yes other games have this, that´s no reason to implement it in Warframe.

I am all for balance but this won´t change it for the good.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Why do people feel like warframe balancing is the end of the world? :/

[Mover-NeRo]

If you want 4 abbilities and cooldowns go play Destiny.

You can balance abbilities by its energy cost. And it work quite well.

[Tsukinoki]

6 hours ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

Add abilities cooldown. It is very simple and good solution. I dont know any balanced game where all active abilities do not have cooldowns. 

 

And there is a question how to decrease it? 

Also simple answer - add to focus trees passives that decreases CD, (F.E. madurai passive decrease DD abilities CD and etc)

Few things:
First - way, way back in early early CBT they had CDs.  They abandoned it pretty quickly because it led to one play style that was slow as molasses: Run into room, pop your abilities to wipe room, take care of what you didn't wipe, and then sit there until all of your CDs have finished before doing it again.
For every single room in a mission.  It made the game a slow and torturous slog.
Why does it do that?  Because CDs incentivize sitting on your hands until you can use your abilities again.  After all, why go into the next room if your abilities aren't ready?  And why wouldn't you pop your abilities every room?
The energy system on the other hand incentivize killing enemies, after all killing enemies gets you energy so you can use your abilities as you need them.

Second - How would a CD system handle all of the toggle abilities?  That's a pretty big stop to a CD system without major rework of all of the toggle abilities (and abilities like scarab swarm, or IS)

Third - Please tell me: How many abilities have a lasting enough impact to warrant a CD?  Honestly?  Take an abilities like Slash Dash?  How does it provide any lasting impact or is anywhere near strong enough to deserve even a 1 second CD?
The fact is that most abilities need to be spammed to be useful.  And you want to take that away and replace with what?
Lets face it: The vast majority of powers simply aren't that strong.  They only get useful when you can spam cast them repeatedly.
And then what about frames that are built around spamming?  Such as Vauban and his entire kit?  Or any frame that relies on their abilities to even have basic survival?  I'm sure all the Loki/Zephyr/etc. players will have fun popping their defensive abilities, and then hiding in a closet for the 15+ seconds it takes to be able to use them again as merely poking their head out the door will get them killed.  And remember: WF isn't a game where you can draw aggro off of the squishy caster frames to give them a chance for their abilities to CD, and remember the solo players as well.

Fourth - CDs just don't work in a horde-based shooter like WF.  It leads to two play styles: Frames who don't require their abilities just rush through and pop their abilities as its useful.  Frames that do require their abilities?  Very slow and tedius rushing from one close to another, popping their abilities and hoping that they can get to the next closet before their abilities end leaving them utterly and completely defenseless.  Especially if they happen to be playing solo.
Then it also leads to the problem of: "Why use my abilities?  Around the next corner could be a bunch of heavies, so I can't use them, better hold onto them..." and then never using your abilities the entire mission "just in case a few heavies are around the corner..."  Which is quite the opposite of what DE wants WF to be.

Fifth - DE has actually removed soft CDs from abilities.  Take for instance Chaos or Stomp.  They used to not be able to be used while anyone was still under their effects.
For Nyx this lead to her popping chaos...and then being utterly useless for the next few rooms as she can't recast it and can't support the team with any abilities if even a single enemy got stuck in a spawn closet somewhere that the party couldn't find.  This wasn't fun at all for Nyx and there was much rejoicing when they removed it.
For Rhino it was much less of a problem: 8 seconds, or until all enemies stomped died.  And they still removed that as even 8 seconds was too long for a fourth ability that CCd.  This did increase how many Rhino's used stomp, and why?  Because now they don't need to worry about stomping, only for a few heavy enemies (or corpus techs) rushing in and finding them with their pants down unable to CC them.  It made the ability much more useful.

In closing:
CDs just don't work with a game like WF.  They tried it and ditched it.
It would cause way too many headaches, and would unbalance things even more, and dramatically towards the frames that don't need their abilities to survive.  After all, why play a frame that needs to rely on its abilities when it means you'll be spending 5+ minutes of every mission in a closet waiting for your abilities to CD and hoping that someone doesn't walk in on you?
Also the simple fact is that most abilities simply aren't powerful enough to warrant a CD, so unless you have ideas for buffing the majority of powers so that they can actually be used once every 15 seconds and still have a large impact on the battlefield...

Edited February 5, 2018 by Tsukinoki

[Peter]

Ninjas with cooldown, yay!

And let's put some defense towers and make warframe to start lvl 1 in all games to lvl up during battle? ...

Edited February 5, 2018 by peterkas