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Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!


[DE]Rebecca

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Glad to hear about the beam weapons getting their own balance pass. Looking forward to hearing more on that front!

I'd like to single out the Latron Wraith and Latron Prime: until now, the Latron Wraith and Prime have both been upgrades to the base Latron, but sidegrades to each other.

The Latron Wraith favoured crits and fire rate, both important on a semi-auto marksman rifle where it's easy to land headshots. The Latron Prime boasted higher raw damage and slightly better status chance.

After these changes, the Latron Prime will stand superior in all important dimensions. I understand that one is meant to be a higher MR lock than the other, but might I ask you to reconsider making Variants sidegrades to each other once more? Nobody will mind that they're both superior to their base variants, but making one better than the other leaves the middle rung with no place in an endgame arsenal. If you compare the Latron Wraith with the MR-equivalent Sybaris or Dex Sybaris, it is overshadowed anyways.

Having these sidegrade variants allows players to build for the weapons very differently, and it brings diversity to the amount of viable riven mods for those weapons. It also lets people opt for personal preference: before, crit-savvy players would go for the Latron Wraith and players who valued consistency would use the Latron Prime. Paper calculations pointed out that the Wraith DPS wins out in the end, but only slightly.

But if you were to increase that divide, you'd find more people who favour one over the other. They would have more choice.

Perhaps one could feel like a harder-hitting weapon, dealing heavier crits at a lower speed, while the other could push out faster consistent damage with less recoil (an important and underappreciated feature when slinging bullets repeatedly into the same target's head).

For quick reference, here are the weapons that have multiple variants (besides unobtainable/MK-1) that I would love to see stand as sidegrades rather than having one that is objectively superior:

  • Boltor Prime/Telos
  • Gorgon Prisma/Wraith
  • Latron Prime/Wraith
  • Sybaris Prime/Dex
  • Tigris Prime/Sancti
  • Cernos Prime/Rakta
  • Ballistica Prime/Rakta

Several on that list are fine as they are! The Latron stood out to me, so that's why I wrote a comment about it.

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8 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

Is it possible to make Dual Toxycyst switch to auto fire when the +fire rate buff happens? To save people's hands from chronic health issues. I wonder if people think I'm joking.

Bind an alternative key for fire like mouse scroll up or down. 

Save your hands from the nonsense. But the buff granting automatic fire would make it too useful I suspect.

 

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Please dont make Supra a crit weapon. 

Leave the stats and maybe just increase the base dmg of it. 

Entropy burst will be trashed after this pass, and there will be just too many crit based primaries. 

I do love the fact that you guys are taking a look at the older weapons tho. Please keep up the great work.

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Awesome, much needed changes, thank you DE! My only complain is that the MR requirement for some weapons feels too high like the Lex and Aklex prime. Perhaps a way to work around this is to make the currently owned versions of the weapon usable? Whereas players without one currently need to be MR14.

 

edit: saw the edit you guys made, sorry!

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This is going to look like a lot of text, but I feel invested in this weapon due to a commitment of my in-game resources and I'm really, really, really confused what you are trying to do here so I'm puzzling through it all over the course of all this writing. =/

Daikyu ~15% damage nerf looks like a real killer.  Perhaps you were assuming everyone using Daikyu takes Vile Acceleration, (so taking it off because of fire rate increase will add that much damage right back), but I don't anymore even if I originally tried that, because I prefer the feel of a slower bow that gives almost guaranteed oneshots even into Sorties.  I don't see it doing that anymore because that nerf looks downright CRIPPLING to that potential.  Daikyu was always meant to be the slower bow that rewarded patience with overwhelming damage.  I see that you want to speed up all bows, but you have a +100% fire rate increase to all others with no nerfs to damage, so why nerf Daikyu damage despite a reduced fire rate increase when compared to the other bows?  This feels really unfair.  And don't say - for crying out loud do NOT say - that you increased its DPS through crit.  I still cannot hit 100% crit, and so I could care less about it's paper DPS because I still can't build it like Dread to get higher guaranteed damage on a single shot.  No one played Daikyu for its DPS on paper: Daikyu was played in order to reward the archer with guaranteed kills in a single shot.  A theoretical "buff" to DPS can very well end up feeling like a nerf to the player if it destroys the core identity of the weapon.

I put five Forma on this thing (recently) to build it around its current identity and now I'm going to have to carefully revisit the mod polarities to make sure that these forma are actually helpful or, possibly detrimental if I need to build it quite differently.  Needless to say, I am very nervous about these Daikyu changes... I only recently fell in love with it and after committing so much forma because of how much I had embraced it, I may now find many of these resources utterly wasted as I have to change all its polarities again.  ...And this is all assuming that it's identity hasn't changed too much that I lose interest in using it anymore even after I'd gotten so interested in it just recently.  Now, all my pessimism hinges upon preconceived notions.  Obviously, I cannot test the changes, and I may find that with a couple mod swaps that are allowed by my polarizations, it might work just fine as before.  Regardless you have done so much power tweaking and rebalancing on Daikyu (nerf this, buff that, switch around these other two things, etc...) that it's very hard to tell and that uncertainty makes me very nervous about something I was just starting to enjoy and to which I committed a lot of resources (nearly one entire week of forma crafting, lest I point that out?).

All in all, though, you have been extremely generous with buffs, which was an incredibly brave action to take (you're willing to risk all these changes so that older weapons that some people might find fun are able to once again reach more competitive potential without a godlike riven roll, and that's a brave commitment) and I highly respect that.  I'm excited about most of these changes (The Karak Wraith buffs, to quote Maroo, have me going "Oh me oh my").  Yet, this makes the Daikyu changes sting all that much more - why is Daikyu the exception?  Did it really warrant roughly 15% damage reduction when so many things are getting so many flat buffs in an open case of power creep as you more or less buff the most of the low-usage weapon roster?  If so... just why?

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I'm sad to see there's no Miter/panthera updates =/ i really like the miter. Glad to see that buff to the supra vandal one of my favorite weapons.

@[DE]Rebecca I know this probably isn't going to get read, been trying to post to the right places and have been left by the wayside by "grr yar, ramble ramble ember" in the forums.

Please read this if you guys are still planning to focus on atlas's 3 as his main skill in the rework. Literally just trying to save people's lives(literally)... still gonna play him even if this isn't fixed. Cheers!

 

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So reading this.. basically the Latron prime is now a direct upgrade over the wraith? Who's crazy idea was that. The wraiths whole thing was always that it had a higher crit chance than the prime but the prime had more damage. Now the prime has both. 

#nothappy

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Here are some errors that i found (i think they are errors at least):

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Reload speed increased from 2.1 secs to 1.7 secs

On the grakata stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Reload speed increased from 4 secs to 2.7 secs

On the sobek stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Increased reload speed from 3 secs to 1.7 secs

On the torid stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Reload speed increased from 2.2 secs to 1.9 secs

On the javlok stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Reload speed increased from 1.1 to .7 secs

On the viper stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Reload speed decreased from 3 to 3.4 secs

On the Akmagnus stats

 

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Charge speed increased from 1 to 0.5 secs

And this on multiple bows

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1 minute ago, Ionell said:

Please dont make Supra a crit weapon. 

Leave the stats and maybe just increase the base dmg of it. 

Entropy burst will be trashed after this pass, and there will be just too many crit based primaries. 

I do love the fact that you guys are taking a look at the older weapons tho. Please keep up the great work.

This is the one thing that has me a bit nervous beyond the Daikyu wall-of-text I posted prior to making this post quoting yours.  It feels as if many of these rifles are having their DPS deficiencies addressed simply through crit, encouraging everyone to simply build every rifle exactly the same: apply crit, put on more crit, and try to get a crit riven if you want to go god-tier.  Can this game not base everything around critical strikes?  Can there be weapons that operate using different mechanics since we have all these other cool things in this game like status effects?  I feel weapon diversity is going to be most satisfying when there are distinct categories of weapons that operate off of crit (high DPS over the long-term but possibly spikey from RNG dependence), off of flat damage (highly reliable from low RNG dependence, even if the DPS doesn't get quite as high as a crit weapon), and status (allowing many unique applications whether anti-armor Corrosive, AoE from Gas, or crowd control Blast - you use it and abuse it as you see fit).

I have a Supra riven I love because it gave huge flat damage to Supra and Supra was a flat-damage weapon (that powered up to also acquire juicy amounts of status from Entropy Burst), but apparently we should roll everything from Acri- Crita-, -ata now, no matter the weapon...

Really looking forward to seeing a lot of these changes in action to bring older weapons up to speed, but I hope DE continues to remember they have all sorts of unique mechanics to give weapons meaning in this game and that we shouldn't have to mod every darn thing for crit.

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