Dev Workshop: Weapons, Mastery Ranks, and Stats!

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)hunter-367_pro said:

Ummm one of them is the single Lex Prime, the other is the Duel Lex Prime bud.

Rebecca Fixed it, lol. look at my original quote and you will see she said they were raising Lex Prime from 5-8, while simultaneously raising it from 4-14.

[YandereWaifu]

8 hours ago, Nirvax said:

Grakata                                                                       Prisma Grakata

Mastery Rank increased from 0 to 9                            Mastery Rank increased from 9 to 11

Damage increased from 11 to 17                                 Damage increased from 11 to 15

Status chance increased from 20% to 21%                 Status chance increased from 20% to 21%

Critical damage increased from 2x to 2.7x                    Critical damage stay at 2.5x

 

So based Grakata will be better than Prisma Grakata ?

Prisma Grakata have more ammo but that's secondary, not really useful.

Prisma Grakata with higher MR than based Grakata but have lesser damage ?

I don't understand why you're doing this, makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

prisma has better accuracy, fire rate, reload, mag size and ammo pool, still easily out DPS regular grakata

[bAnthony24]

On 2/5/2018 at 5:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Attica

Mastery Rank increased from 0 to 7

Critical damage increased from 2x to 3x

Damage decreased from 125 to 80         

<<< Isn't a repeating bow supposed to be deadlier than a normal bow...

I mean for every 1 arrow a normal bow fires, the repeating is putting what x5 bolts down... making it deadlier I would think...

Why couldn't we get a larger mag with the nerf'ed overall dmg... or A higher fire  rate @ 20 rounds for 80 shots this is basically not great choice of a weapon anymore...

But I do have to ask why this bow has, HIgher Crit Dmg, and normal Crit Chance... cmp to other bows; I mean at the least a +5% addition to it would make the weap equal that of its counter parts...@DE.Rebecca ?

[Combustionsquirrel]

5 hours ago, exturkconner said:

Larger mag size 100% matters. It's why the vaykor hek is better than regular even with the regular hek being able to use the augment. Less reloading always ends up creating more damage in the longer term. And the Prisma does effectively have better accuracy. It's because of it's higher fire rate. That sounds counter intuitive with high recoil but test the weapons out. Your spread of bullets is smaller with the prisma.

Damage and crit damage multiplier matter more. The 2 damage and 0.2 multiplier difference may not seem like much, but that difference gets a whole lot bigger after mods.

For example I did some basic damage calculations and with the currently presented stats, serration, point strike, and vital sense and the average damage per shot was:

Prisma                                       Regular

151.55                                       184.14

But we need to address the difference in mag size, as you pointed out. So next I calculated the damage per magazine:

18,185                                        11,048

And as expected the prisma's damage per mag is higher, but not nearly the 2x you would expect from a 2x larger magazine.

Then I though about not only the damage output, but the speed of the damage output, so I calculated the time it took for each gun to empty the magazine:

5.54                                             3

The prisma takes longer to empty the mag as expected because it has 2x the mag size, but essentially the same fire rate. Using these numbers I was able to calculate the damage per second of each magazine:

3,284.02                                      3,682.88

However that does not account for the reload speed. Now I don't know mathematically how to factor reload speed into damage per second of a magazine, but I do know that the prisma reloads 0.37 (about a third of a second) faster than regular one. However, as I calculated earlier, the regular will deliver it's damage 2.5 seconds faster than the prisma, so it will be able to dish out the same amount of damage at a faster rate. I estimate, with these mods only, that it will take 2-3 magazines for the killing power (damage/second, total) of the regular to overtake the prisma.

The biggest takeaway from this post should be that small differences, especially when dealing with crit damage multipliers, are increased significantly by mods. Because of this, the higher damage multiplier (and to a lesser extent, raw damage) of the regular grakata leads to it doing damage more efficiently. This difference will be even further multiplied with the addition of more damage (in the form of elemental or crit mods).

Now I would ask, when comparing a normal and special variation of a weapon (disregarding special abilities) should there even be a debate about which does more damage?

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

10 hours ago, Xmodusterz said:

@(Xbox One)BigLithuanian

Yea you can still use any weapon you already own prior to changes.

Good. Thanks

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

What i don't understand is why they lowered damage for Boltor prime and Tiberon and basically turned Boltor Prime into a crit build weapon. I haven't seen any game breaking builds for Boltor Prime soooooo why? 

[bAnthony24]

Sorry post was meant to be a part of my edited one sorry for the double post, this was not intentional...

[TeCoolTenno]

27 minutes ago, bAnthony24 said:

<<< Isn't a repeating bow supposed to be deadlier than a normal bow...

I mean for every 1 arrow a normal bow fires, the repeating is putting what x5 bolts down... making it deadlier I would think...

Why couldn't we get a larger mag with the nerf'ed overall dmg... or A higher fire  rate @ 20 rounds for 80 shots this is basically not great choice of a weapon anymore...

But I do have to ask why this bow has, HIgher Crit Dmg, and normal Crit Chance... cmp to other bows; I mean at the least a +5% addition to it would make the weap equal that of its counter parts...@DE.Rebecca ?

I mean a gun is deadlier than any bow so clearly Attica, dread and rakta cernos are all out of line compared to mk 1 Braton.

[bAnthony24]

@TeCoolTenno

I wasn't comparing other weapons to the Attica, I was comparing Bows... but im not gonna start a flame war, I know many ppl will debate this... IRL... they are all deadly depends on who's behind the trigger :)

I also want to include that some tweaks aren't so great... Is this to stop some weapons from being to strong and bring popularity to others... cause many of these aren't really a win-win.. Thanks for increasing the plasmors mag size though :D

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

7 hours ago, Nirvax said:

Grakata                                                                       Prisma Grakata

Mastery Rank increased from 0 to 9                            Mastery Rank increased from 9 to 11

Damage increased from 11 to 17                                 Damage increased from 11 to 15

Status chance increased from 20% to 21%                 Status chance increased from 20% to 21%

Critical damage increased from 2x to 2.7x                    Critical damage stay at 2.5x

 

So based Grakata will be better than Prisma Grakata ?

Prisma Grakata have more ammo but that's secondary, not really useful.

Prisma Grakata with higher MR than based Grakata but have lesser damage ?

I don't understand why you're doing this, makes no sense to me.

This is a good catch actually (I found some1 on Pg 1 mention this 2 when I went to confirm it), the Prisma Grakata has very slightly higher Fire Rate, somewhat faster Reload Speed, and 2*Mag Cap (It also has a larger Max Ammo Pool but that is mostly irrelevant as good luck filling it after fighting off a group of enemies), the Prisma also has better recoil in my experience. The normal Grakata will do more Base DMG, and have a higher Crit Multiplier. Honestly with Hunter Munitions existence, that is far better than slightly higher Fire Rate, 2* Mag Cap and better recoil.

Accuracy is hard to judge in WF, a weapons Accuracy Stat means nothing as the numbers rarely if ever actually match a weapons accuracy. I honestly believe that stat in WF is actually harmful to peoples perception of a weapon, especially if Heavy Calibur or Magnum Force are introduced into the equation. WF also doesn't have a Recoil/Stability Stat which I consider to be more important than accuracy as it makes a huge difference to sustained damage in most cases (If they do add that stat then I would also like a recoil direction as well, in some games I have had weapons that recoil down, which is particularly hard for me personally to deal with).

While Prisma Grakata may have better accuracy in practice (which I am not 100% sure about), I believe it's the recoil that makes it more accurate, in my experiance, the Prismas recoil is a lot less pronounced than it is for the normal Grakata making it more consistent, at the same time. I believe that it is quite possible to headshot with both weapons at medium range though (and with a Grakata you really should be at maximum medium range), especially if you burst fire.

6 hours ago, TeCoolTenno said:

any weapon that isn't made to be accurate for headshots but is also crit based is usually trash.

I mean, most good shotguns are status for a reason. Or their spread is small/lets you aim for the head and hit most bullets reasonably

This isn't really true any more. While accuracy helps, as long as a weapon doesn't miss an enemy at close range (Which I have had happen with some rifles with Heavy Caliber in them), then the accuracy is fine, weather it's for headshots or otherwise, hitting headshots with a Grakata is more about dealing with the recoil than anything else (If you rly wanna do it, you can burst fire). As for shotguns, I guess you haven't seen a Hek with Hunter Munitions in it, those things annihilate enemies. The funny thing is at the moment it is better to build a Tigris (Either Sancti or Prime) for Crit, because 100% status doesn't matter when you can 1 burst lvl 160 enemies with slash regardless of weather they have armour or not.

5 hours ago, SteamlordD said:

Mostly, the problem with crit shotguns is the same as the problem with status, but it's more severe with crit. The chance being divided among pellets until you hit 100% leads to a weapon with 10 pellets and 99% crit chance actually having an abysmal chance to crit, and no shotgun has really had high enough chance to cope with that.

Shotgun Crit and Shotgun Status work differently. Shotgun Status is a % chance for 1 pellet to PROC Status per shot (This breaks at 100% and makes every pellet status). Shotgun Crit is a % chance per pellet to Crit so if you fire 10 pellets with a 60% Crit chance, odds are, 6 of them will crit. Honestly Shotgun Status should work the same way, idk why it doesn't.

5 hours ago, exturkconner said:

Larger mag size 100% matters. It's why the vaykor hek is better than regular even with the regular hek being able to use the augment. Less reloading always ends up creating more damage in the longer term.

What, the reason Veykor Hek is better is because it has over double the Crit Chance, the extra Fire Rate and higher Mag Cap is good, but not as significant as the Crit.

3 hours ago, exturkconner said:

Thats why the primary difference between a bunch of the "high" tier weapons are just mag capacity. Hek,Supra,Grakata. I am sure more examples exist but these are ones I use so they spring to mind.

Tell that to Tigris, yes Supra will be far better post buff, Grakata is still pretty good, not amazing but definitely sortie viable. Hek/Veykor Hek is once again viable but solely because of Hunter Munitions, without that mod, the weapon is actually trash, great on paper, trash in practice (I should know, my Veykor Hek has 6 Forma in it and it gets beaten out by my 0 Forma Strun Wraith, 0 Forma Boar Prime, 2 Forma Sancti Tigris, and 1 Forma Tigris Prime without that mod). Again Mag Cap is good, but if the firepower isn't there to back it up, then all it does is help you run out of bullets faster, this is why most Machine Pistols are are trash.

2 hours ago, SteamlordD said:

As far as the Hek goes, the Vaykor already has the augment built in, so that kind of frees up a mod slot. The mag size is a nice bonus, but picking one weapon over another for mag size is questionable. 

What, both Hek and Veykor Hek have the same pellet count, if you mean it's build in because of Mag Cap, fire rate and ammo come into play for that so that's not really true either. I am almost certain that if Veykor Hek had half it's Mag Cap but had access to the Syndicate Mod, it would be a far better weapon because that mod is +200% Multishot, that means 7 Pellets turn into 21, or 29.4 with Hell's Chamber, that's far better than 2*Mag Cap.

 

I get that the ability to fire more often is useful (This is also why people really like Fire Rate Mods, even the ones that reduce DMG), but this is often secondary to Base DMG, Crit DMG, Crit Chance, and Status Chance because those are the driving forces behind that Fire Rate, and Ammo Sustainability also needs to be taken into account, it's why Twin Grakatas although great, usually struggle in long missions with out some way to reliably get lots of ammo. Currently most of the best weapons in the game have 10 shots or less before needing to reload (Things like snipers, shotguns, Dex Sybaris which I count because you fire 7 times, then need to reload, and Dread are the best things at killing high lvl enemies).

 

Back to Prisma Grakata and Grakata, the interesting thing is this is kind of in line with other weapon variants such as Supra (as of this Dev Workshop), and Ignis. Although interestingly, both Gorgon Wraith and Prisma Gorgon are sidegrades, they are both far better than the base weapon.

The thing is unless the ammo is unsustainable, I will always go for whatever does the most DPS, if that is suddenly the base Grakata, then I guess I'm remaking it then (Although the Base Grakata doing more DPS still sounds silly to me).

[-CM-Bish]

Just a question, but...where is Pyrana in the Secondary Shotguns list? Has it been forgotten? @DE.Rebecca

[AzureTerra]

So why does the Braton Prime still get a reduced Ammo Reserve?

[Mandolin53]

Screwed up my edit, ignore this comment and read the one below

[Mandolin53]

On 06/02/2018 at 10:32 AM, Nitro747 said:

Another thing: WHY NERF STUFF?

Whats the point of nerfing it?

Example:

"Latron Wraith

Mastery Rank increased from 0 to 7

Damage increased from 50 to 72

Critical chance decreased from 25% to 20%"

The gun was already unused and not so good enough and now the crit chance is DECREASED? If it is not super bad, why even nerf it?

Because the Latron Prime is supposed to be better than the wraith, it wasn't so they nerfed the wraith and buffed the prime

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Braton vandal should be 18 cc, sc imo

[exturkconner]

6 hours ago, SteamlordD said:

As far as the Hek goes, the Vaykor already has the augment built in, so that kind of frees up a mod slot. The mag size is a nice bonus, but picking one weapon over another for mag size is questionable. 

No it only has the aoe and heal it does not have the 200% multishot baked in.

[exturkconner]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)BigLithuanian said:

What i don't understand is why they lowered damage for Boltor prime and Tiberon and basically turned Boltor Prime into a crit build weapon. I haven't seen any game breaking builds for Boltor Prime soooooo why? 

If I had to fathom a guess it would be to make it match with akbolto prime. 

[xV3NOMx]

22 hours ago, Doomsknight said:

You must be new here. Fixing old content  is as important as releasing new content, as you can see a lot of ppl who play Warframe for a long time cheering for this weapon balance patch.

New quest ain't gonna keep the game alive for long, but buffing these outdated weapons contributes to the game's variety and variety really matters in a game like Warframe because of the endless grinding. And don't forget there're weapons so sh1tty that even Riven or syndicate mod can't make them viable for late game (e.g. Tiberon, Grinlok, Burston Prime, etc) therefore a lot of weapons which used to be MR fodder can now shine again and players won't just stick to current "meta". 

In the long term frames and weapons balance change are far more impactful than simply a new quest.

No, I am not new to Warframe (I have been playing after the Beta when there was no Landing craft, but only a star map which looked better than the current one).

Fixing the old content is not important since veteran players, like myself, have already optimized our weapons to be effective in battle and does not need to be nerfed for other's preferences. 

[The Devs already nerfed weapons that were highly combat efficient, such as Telos Boltace, Synoid Simulor and Tonker.]

How many more changes will it take until the players start revolting?

I was even content with the "Void Key" runs and Ash's "Bladestorm" (one button kill ability without trying), now they still want try to fix what is not broken.

 

*Maybe you are too new to Warframe to understand my frustration and others.

[exturkconner]

The problem is you are trying to be efficient and that's boring for new players. 

You grasp that in a game of this type the most important thing isn't pleasing old time players right? Veterans don't spend plat. The goal is to get new players who find the game play interesting enough but frustrating enough to spend plat. That's how the game can live on in the long term.

So how do you make the game play interesting. Well you try and make things balanced and you try and make it so everyone has something to do in a party and isn't bored. That's why some of the meta is getting broken. And why some stuff is getting nerfed. Because it's important to making the game viable for the future.

 

[exturkconner]

2 hours ago, -CM-Bish said:

 

4 hours ago, Combustionsquirrel said:

Damage and crit damage multiplier matter more. The 2 damage and 0.2 multiplier difference may not seem like much, but that difference gets a whole lot bigger after mods.

For example I did some basic damage calculations and with the currently presented stats, serration, point strike, and vital sense and the average damage per shot was:

Prisma                                       Regular

151.55                                       184.14

But we need to address the difference in mag size, as you pointed out. So next I calculated the damage per magazine:

18,185                                        11,048

And as expected the prisma's damage per mag is higher, but not nearly the 2x you would expect from a 2x larger magazine.

Then I though about not only the damage output, but the speed of the damage output, so I calculated the time it took for each gun to empty the magazine:

5.54                                             3

The prisma takes longer to empty the mag as expected because it has 2x the mag size, but essentially the same fire rate. Using these numbers I was able to calculate the damage per second of each magazine:

3,284.02                                      3,682.88

However that does not account for the reload speed. Now I don't know mathematically how to factor reload speed into damage per second of a magazine, but I do know that the prisma reloads 0.37 (about a third of a second) faster than regular one. However, as I calculated earlier, the regular will deliver it's damage 2.5 seconds faster than the prisma, so it will be able to dish out the same amount of damage at a faster rate. I estimate, with these mods only, that it will take 2-3 magazines for the killing power (damage/second, total) of the regular to overtake the prisma.

The biggest takeaway from this post should be that small differences, especially when dealing with crit damage multipliers, are increased significantly by mods. Because of this, the higher damage multiplier (and to a lesser extent, raw damage) of the regular grakata leads to it doing damage more efficiently. This difference will be even further multiplied with the addition of more damage (in the form of elemental or crit mods).

Now I would ask, when comparing a normal and special variation of a weapon (disregarding special abilities) should there even be a debate about which does more damage?

The problem with this calculation is your average damage number. Whats it based on? Is it based on running both weapons in simulation several times while aiming for the head and just holding down the trigger? Is it done with bursts? Is it done with body shots?Is it just you picking random numbers? Cause as I've pointed out the prisma will tend to get you more headshots than the regular grakata.  Just having higher damage potential doesn't mean a weapon will do more damage in practice.

These are things that were taken into DE's calculations they mentioned it. The reason why Grakata has higher damage and cd is because of it's extreme inaccuracy. It's a balancing point to bring it into line with the other weapons of similar mr. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

47 minutes ago, xV3NOMx said:

No, I am not new to Warframe (I have been playing after the Beta when there was no Landing craft, but only a star map which looked better than the current one).

Fixing the old content is not important since veteran players, like myself, have already optimized our weapons to be effective in battle and does not need to be nerfed for other's preferences. 

[The Devs already nerfed weapons that were highly combat efficient, such as Telos Boltace, Synoid Simulor and Tonker.]

How many more changes will it take until the players start revolting?

I was even content with the "Void Key" runs and Ash's "Bladestorm" (one button kill ability without trying), now they still want try to fix what is not broken.

 

*Maybe you are too new to Warframe to understand my frustration and others.

Tonkor was dumb op... Im a vet too, but it was stupid op, and sometimes weapons get nerfed. Simulor nerf is hardly noticed... Im running no riven and can easily kil 90+ grineer eximus. Telos Boltace was ridiculous op, worse than tonkor, but in its current form its still incredibly powerful at  killing. Being a true vet means u can shift gears AND change lanes... So basically... 

Evolve

Or

Die.

[CaptainJLP]

On 2/6/2018 at 9:22 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tonkor

Increased projectile speed

Changed projectile life from 3 secs on launch to 1 sec after first bounce

Improved trail FX

Will Tonkor still effected by Projectile Flight Speed Mods as it is currently, which if you don't know, it basically reduces the explosion time.

[T.E.L.B.I.]

Where is Ignis? god dammit...

[Wes8670]

On 2/5/2018 at 4:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Not noted here are BEAM weapons - they should be ready soon, but we are revisiting them to be more 'like they used to be' in terms of damage instances over time but with a fixed fire rate. Fire Rate mods and their effects are still being determined.

Last I checked, ignis was a beam weapon of sorts, so please take some time to chill....about the flamethrower. I'll show myself out.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

1 hour ago, xV3NOMx said:

Fixing the old content is not important since veteran players, like myself, have already optimized our weapons to be effective in battle and does not need to be nerfed for other's preferences. 

[The Devs already nerfed weapons that were highly combat efficient, such as Telos Boltace, Synoid Simulor and Tonker.]

Most of the changes in this list are buffs, how is that a bad thing, I am a Veteran player and I can tell you that most of these weapon changes are great because it means there are more viable weapons for me to Forma and build into death cannons. Some of the changes are nerfs yes, but they are few and far between, if this change goes through as it is, I would be pretty happy with it, I would be even more happy if some things were rethought before this change happens though.

Telos Boltace was not strictly nerfed, I actually prefer it in it's current form, being able to pull enemies in then Slide Attack through them all with Maiming Strike and see loads of red numbers, and send anything I don't kill flying into the ether is very satisfying, and can kill some a lot of high level enemies easily.

Synoid Simulor wasn't strictly nerfed either, it can now take advantage of Multishot which does a good job of covering any loss in power it received. It needs to be used in a different way yes but it is still powerful and still widely used.

Fixing old content is absolutely important, have you seen the amount of systems/features that the community complain about all the time, features like enemy scaling, the damage system, Warframes that are barely used such as Atlas, Hydroid and Oberon, broken Exterminate missions, the new player experience, Prime Vault Unlocks, these are all things that have been around for quite some time and things that benefit both old and new players (other than the new player experience which mostly just benefits new players). There's more to Warframe than just having the most optimized and powerful weapons/builds as possible.

1 hour ago, exturkconner said:

You grasp that in a game of this type the most important thing isn't pleasing old time players right? Veterans don't spend plat. The goal is to get new players who find the game play interesting enough but frustrating enough to spend plat. That's how the game can live on in the long term.

I do not agree with this at all. Again as a Veteran player, I still spend Plat on Cosmetics (Or buy Tenno Workshop Skins) because fashion frame is the true end game and I like to support DE, I bet I am not the only Veteran who feels this way. The goal isn't strictly to get new players into the game then keep them there and have them buy things out of frustration. I bet DE wants to get new players into the game, and as a business they do ultimately want to make money. This doesn't mean it has to be due to frustration, Warframe has had problems with the new player experience yes but that DE have taken steps to mitigate that. I bet you the big reason DE wants people to spend money on the game is to support them because they like the company, and the game, generally that means cosmetics, or Prime Access. Making money is good, keeping people while making money is better.

1 hour ago, exturkconner said:

Just having higher damage potential doesn't mean a weapon will do more damage in practice.

This is a thing I see a lot where people will test weapons/builds in a controlled environment then use that as data for how good something is. In my experience, testing them in missions is a far better indication of a weapons power because the environment is so much more chaotic and more can go wrong. Pretty much everything I ever test in the similcrum is worse in practice, how much worse depends on how flexible the thing I'm testing is. Always take things like Warframe builder and Similcrum testing with a grain of salt, on paper and in practice are two different things and there can be complications in a mission that you don't have to deal with elsewhere.